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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

MrMcNuts

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Rabbids are more popular than Rayman in Japan but they're not like a massive success or hit there but decently known.

Shantae might be slightly more known in Japan but I wouldn't call her popular anywhere really for outside of western smash speculation her series is overall pretty niche.
 

Speed Weed

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You know how we discussed that Smash seems to only use franchises that are popular in Japan? Well, remind me again…are there any Western-developed games or franchises that are popular in Japan?
Off the top of my head I can think of Apex Legends (big enough to be one of the few Western games in that big Japanese video game poll from a few years back) and Wizardry (massively celebrated and influential, there's a lot of Japan-only Wizardry games)
 

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I mean, if you want to talk about western developed games that have massive Japanese followings, including in the context of Smash Bros...

...Undertale is right there.
Off the top of my head I can think of Apex Legends (big enough to be one of the few Western games in that big Japanese video game poll from a few years back) and Wizardry (massively celebrated and influential, there's a lot of Japan-only Wizardry games)
Ironically enough, Doom is starting to get bigger there too.

Not nearly as much as Undertale and APEX, but Japan is starting to become aware of it.
 

cashregister9

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Gotta say that's the first time I've heard someone requesting specifically Toriel. Usually most people vouch for Sans or Frisk or Papyrus or even Undyne.

It's a very interesting case to me since there seems to not be one clear-cut option for an Undertale character.
Not only are there a lot of potential characters, but each of those characters also have many different ways you can go (Sans alone has at least like 4 different moveset concepts that could feasibly fit the character.)
 
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Guynamednelson

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True which is weird cause I wish I could start Ocarina of Time with the Bow and Fire Arrows and Hookshot. That Kokiri Sword is also a tad longer than usual, and his "home stage" is the Termina Great Bay.

They sure didn't think this through.
Well he's a clone of his adult self, so it wasn't going to be a perfect representation of the beginning of OoT. Besides, the longer Kokiri Sword is still supposed to be THE Kokiri Sword.
 

RodNutTakin

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I think Among Us is also pretty popular in Japan

Getting a collab with Hololive, Undertale and Ace Attorney absolutely helped






There was also an Among Us Manga and a set of Nendoroids
it could get a costume or something similar next game but I think people are in over their heads if they're expecting a fighter from it
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Young Link was mildly meant to be OOT/MM. It's his listed games in the JP Melee version and his stage is even from MM.

That said, he obviously wasn't given much of the MM side. Sure, we got a decent amount of material otherwise. I would've liked a tad more, even through costumes(well, at last in Ultimate it would've been a bit more logical). As a quick clone, I didn't expect major moveset changes(and time is limited to work on stuff in Ultimate too).

Fierce Deity Link as a clone of Link's previous Final Smash would've been cool, though. Or a Taunt to hold up some Masks. That said, time did appear pretty limited for stuff in Ultimate's development, hence even Echoes alone having some bugs. And they're pretty damn easy to make compared to more unique characters, so. XD I get it. That, and we didn't exactly get a lot for "major" character changes like Cloud's alternate Final Smash either(justified in that his is specific to Sephiroth. We didn't get other similar enough situations for that).
 

Louie G.

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It's a very interesting case to me since there seems to not be one clear-cut option for an Undertale character.
I think that reasonably there is a pretty clear-cut choice, but I can understand the fringe cases for someone like Frisk or Papyrus. Ultimately though, with Sans already having a presence in the game and Sakurai's acknowledgement of his popularity in particular I can't see it being anyone else. The reaction to his Mii Costume could be interpreted as a catchall "wow Undertale is in Smash" but I think it will be internally understood as "ok, Sans is really popular".

Frisk specifically strikes me as kind of a loaded case because it seems that Toby doesn't really like using the player characters for merchandise too much, it feels like he really ties them in more with the individual player experience, so I feel like he would much sooner propose that one of the established characters be playable if Sakurai asked for some guidance. Then again Sakurai is a miracle worker so maybe he could sell Toby on a proper Frisk moveset that pays homage to that player agency. But that's really the only hypothetical that I see giving the most popular NPC a run for his money.
 
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RodNutTakin

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And I'm in the camp that thinks Toby might hold out on letting a fighter happen until he's finalized the remainder of Deltarune.
...even if that means it won't happen until Smash 7 at this rate.
 

Louie G.

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And I'm in the camp that thinks Toby might hold out on letting a fighter happen until he's finalized the remainder of Deltarune.
...even if that means it won't happen until Smash 7 at this rate.
That would be a bit silly. There's no guarantee that Nintendo would still be interested in adding a character from Deltarune that far into the future, let alone be thinking about the next Smash at all. If he was asked about Undertale, driven by its existing worldwide appeal and lasting impact on the industry, I don't imagine him feeling this entitled to make Sakurai wait for a WIP when Undertale has an array of popular and viable characters already.

I'm loving Deltarune so far, but I don't understand when some people treat it as interchangeable in this context. I see a number of requests for Kris and I just don't think we can have a real conversation about that yet. Undertale already exists, is a massively popular phenomenon and already has plenty of iconic characters, locales, music etc to work with on its own. It's nearing a full decade of exercised staying power. Although I do think we'd be fortunate enough to get some Deltarune music, at least.
 
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ninjahmos

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You know what I think the funniest thing about Young Link is? His stage is the Great Bay Temple from Majora's Mask, and they used the Lost Woods (Saria's Song) from Ocarina of Time as his theme in Melee.
 

RileyXY1

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You know what I think the funniest thing about Young Link is? His stage is the Great Bay Temple from Majora's Mask, and they used the Lost Woods (Saria's Song) from Ocarina of Time as his theme in Melee.
I think that it was intentional as he was meant to represent both games at the same time. It's just that he's associated with Majora's Mask more because you play as him for the entire game while in Ocarina of Time you only play as Young Link for part of the game.
 
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TheFirstPoppyBro

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I think that reasonably there is a pretty clear-cut choice, but I can understand the fringe cases for someone like Frisk or Papyrus. Ultimately though, with Sans already having a presence in the game and Sakurai's acknowledgement of his popularity in particular I can't see it being anyone else. The reaction to his Mii Costume could be interpreted as a catchall "wow Undertale is in Smash" but I think it will be internally understood as "ok, Sans is really popular".

Frisk specifically strikes me as kind of a loaded case because it seems that Toby doesn't really like using the player characters for merchandise too much, it feels like he really ties them in more with the individual player experience, so I feel like he would much sooner propose that one of the established characters be playable if Sakurai asked for some guidance. Then again Sakurai is a miracle worker so maybe he could sell Toby on a proper Frisk moveset that pays homage to that player agency. But that's really the only hypothetical that I see giving the most popular NPC a run for his money.
I more support Papyrus than Sans these days because I'm not 100% sure if Toby would necessarily WANT Sans to fight people in a combat setting even if it's all for sport since unless it's Genocide route he doesn't really do much to impede the player in any way. Toby strikes me as the kind of person that would want to maintain a sort of continuity with his characters (he doesn't even want merchandise of Lightners for Deltarune including Noelle and Susie, not just Kris), and Sans being pretty neutral in most non-genocide routes until the end, plus the fact that he has 1 HP and 1 ATK and is considered the weakest monster makes me think Toby might want to keep that idea intact?

Like sure, you could take creative liberties with Sans and make him a normal character, but I don't know that Toby would want to compromise on his vision of the character. That's typically why I suggest Papyrus, who has no issues fighting the player to capture them, has basically the same skill set, and is "actually pretty freakin' tough" according to Undyne. Papyrus's only concern in my mind is how Toby views Papyrus's "innocent and kind" nature and if that can translate to Smash since Smash is basically duking it out for fun, but considering some of the other characters we have I don't think it'd be much of a hurdle for him.

EDIT: Not to mention the Spring 2024 newsletter where Papyrus talks about how Sans wouldn't throw a punch, but instead trick someone into wearing a costume of him while he cracks jokes backstage. Obviously this is a crack at the Mii Costume itself and probably isn't any deeper than that, but I feel like it's probably more true to Sans's character lol
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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Undertale always struck me as having enough depth that you didn't necessarily need a full-blown fighter to do it justice. The Sans Mii costume is great as is, but there's even more potential with a stage and assist trophies of all varieties that could work with the game's general themes.
 

NintenRob

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Young Link is 100% just Ocarina of Time. Nothing in his kit is from Majora's Mask. Even the bow and Hookshot which he can't use in Ocarina of Time still use their Ocarina of Time design. And as for Great Bay. It isn't even exclusive to being Young Links home stage. In Melee All-Star, you fight Young Link on Jungle Japes. REGULAR Link is the one who has his home stage as Great Bay there.
 

Louie G.

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Undertale always struck me as having enough depth that you didn't necessarily need a full-blown fighter to do it justice. The Sans Mii costume is great as is, but there's even more potential with a stage and assist trophies of all varieties that could work with the game's general themes.
Many of us used to regurgitate the very same thing about Minecraft, a case where this is arguably far more accurate since Undertale is a strongly character driven game, and I'll confess I personally got proven wrong on that. Hypothetically there are dozens of series that can be done justice without a character, but if that game is full of popular characters then it feels moot to say this. There's a universe where Animal Crossing could still be sustained by stages and assist trophies but I'm much happier being able to play as Isabelle than not.

I'd be satiated with nonplayable Undertale content myself, because I'm not gonna act entitled over any guest characters really. I'd gladly enjoy new remixes of Undertale tracks, a wonderful stage with cameos, a Sans Assist Trophy, but if we were getting all that it's hard not to wonder why we didn't just go all the way. The options are there and people actively want to see it, giving it all this fanfare proves it would be deemed important enough to have around anyway.

the fact that he has 1 HP and 1 ATK and is considered the weakest monster makes me think Toby might want to keep that idea intact?
Yeah I won't really fight anyone on their personal preferences, but I do want to highlight this point because I don't think it's as big a deal as it's presented to be. These are the kind of character traits that are efficiently and more abstractly represented in a different context. Sans having 1 HP in Undertale translates easily to making him an uber glass cannon character like Mr. Game & Watch. His 1 ATK trait likely translates over to making many of his attacks do multiple rapid hits, the same workaround that is used in his boss fight. If Toby wanted to be a stickler about these specific details then so be it, but I would be surprised if there was a lack of flexibility or understanding in how certain ideas just don't work 1:1 in a fighting game, but can be represented in essence.

Although what I'm recognizing from some of these past messages though, including my own on reflection, is that I don't like that we keep putting (hypothetical) words in Toby's mouth more than what I'm used to seeing in reference to other collaborators. I was just trying to acknowledge the way that the player characters in Undertale are typically treated with less general marketability or crossover appeal compared to established faces like Sans or Papyrus. The Lighteners point is something I had in mind, but Sans has more merchandise than nearly any other character so clearly there isn't all that much reservation about putting him out there specifically. And then working with accuracy to his lazy nonchalant nature is part of the fun of crafting a character-driven moveset around such a distinct personality. That's a perk, in my opinion.
 
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pitchfulprocessing

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Just that?
Is Rayman any popular in Japan?
I once dreamt that Rayman was in Super Smash Bros. and had a blue attire as alt., but in the japanese language the blue attire became his main one because purple is an negative color in Japan, as much as the number four.
This is semi-related, but I'm reminded of when I was going through old Japanese Smash polls, and Sephiroth was like a shockingly high request prior to his reveal. I saw multiple polls from 2019 and 2020 with thousands of votes where he was in the top 5 characters requested. Steve was up there too. It makes me wonder if those requests are part of the reason why Sephiroth got in, I didn't expect there to be such a disparity. Sephiroth obviously had his fans in the West but it seems like he was a much bigger request in the Japanese fanbase, and that that reveal was fulfilling that.

Dante also stood out to me as pretty consistently getting number one or two on a lot of polls, he's definitely a pretty huge request in Japan as well too, maybe even moreso than in the West. Other than that it's pretty similar overall. This video is a pretty good example, turn on subtitles.
 
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Ivander

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Oh my god, if Yunobo got in, he might actually become the most hated character on the roster. That is not a popular Goron
He's fine. I know he's notable for having Goku voice syndrome, but he's far from a bad character. Heck, he could bring Daruk as an alternate character since they have the same abilities and similar physiques.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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Yeah I won't really fight anyone on their personal preferences, but I do want to highlight this point because I don't think it's as big a deal as it's presented to be. These are the kind of abstract character traits that are efficiently and more abstractly represented in a different context. Sans having 1 HP in Undertale translates easily to making him an uber glass cannon character like Mr. Game & Watch. His 1 ATK trait likely translates over to making many of his attacks do multiple rapid hits, the same workaround that is used in his boss fight. If Toby wanted to be a stickler about these specific details then so be it, but I would be surprised if there was a lack of flexibility or understanding in how certain ideas just don't work 1:1 in a fighting game, but can be represented in essence.

Although what I'm recognizing from some of these past messages though, including my own on reflection, is that I don't like that we keep putting (hypothetical) words in Toby's mouth more than what I'm used to seeing in reference to other collaborators. I was just trying to acknowledge the way that the player characters in Undertale are typically treated with less general marketability or crossover appeal compared to established faces like Sans or Papyrus. The Lighteners point is something I had in mind, but Sans has more merchandise than nearly any other character so clearly there isn't all that much reservation about putting him out there. And then working with accuracy to his lazy nonchalant nature is part of the fun of crafting a character-driven moveset around such a distinct personality. That's a perk, in my opinion.
That's fair, was just explaining why I personally go for Papyrus over Sans. Admittedly it is a lot more speculation on Toby himself than I intended, but I still feel like choosing who gets added to a big fighting game likely has a different criteria than choosing Sans to get the most merch, and if the Lightners aren't getting merch because of an intentional decision that can't be explained currently but doesn't feel like it fits the game's setting, but Darkners CAN, it feels like the merch for Deltarune is adhering to the narrative, at least to me, which I believe lends credence to the idea that Toby wants to consider his characters and settings in a very specific way, though obviously there's no way to know that for sure and it's, again, speculation on my part that may not even apply to Undertale itself, just Deltarune.

And for what it's worth, I also think making a moveset based around Papyrus's infectious positivity, aim of being the greatest and coolest (never forget the Cool Dude bones and the racecar bed plus potential to lightly include the Annoying Dog), and his ability to use blue attacks to potentially manipulate an opponent's gravity would also make for a fun and interesting moveset.
 

Louie G.

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I still feel like choosing who gets added to a big fighting game likely has a different criteria than choosing Sans to get the most merch
I hope it didn't come off like this was the main point in his favor, I think the Mii Costume and rampant community support toward Sans is his boost and not particularly whether or not he has a plushie. I was just acknowledging that this isn't an obstacle for him the way it is for say, Susie. And that I understand your angle but I think it comes up a bit short if Sans' role in marketing already somewhat contradicts this reservation - that's why I leaned into it. I think it would take a very stubborn Toby Fox to blockade this momentum for Sans in Smash without at least trying to compromise. But who knows how strict he is about it. I personally believe Sans having a Mii Costume in the first place, referencing his Genocide Route fight no less, gives the impression that this won't be a problem.

I also think Papyrus would be fun. Both of them are such vibrant and dynamic characters that I think would be a joy to envision in Smash, I just think Sans is overall the more practical choice and also kinda further represents the ethos of the game and acts as the "good" constant guide to mirror Flowey's influence. You could probably make this case for a number of NPC but I do think Sans is the closest it gets to being the "main" guy.
 
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MBRedboy31

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In the hypothetical that Papyrus is playable, I wonder if Sans would hang around whenever he’s being played as, and.... not really contribute to the fight at all besides making jokes and subtly reacting to how well Papyrus is doing. He’d probably be in the same part of the background that Pokémon Trainer stands in.
 

TheFirstPoppyBro

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I also think Papyrus would be fun. Both of them are such vibrant and dynamic characters that I think would be a joy to envision in Smash, I just think Sans is overall the more practical choice and also kinda further represents the ethos of the game and acts as the "good" constant guide to mirror Flowey's influence. You could probably make this case for a number of NPC but I do think Sans is the closest it gets to being the "main" guy.
I think my main issue these days with Sans is that I just have a hard time seeing a character like Sans who's constantly referred to as a lazybones (specifically the sock with the sticky notes all over it comes to mind lol) in a fighting game setting whooping ***? Basically it just boils down to my personal opinion I guess at the end of the day lol

Papyrus though I could see doing something like this to attain adoration and fans/friends, especially if he knew it was all for fun.

I do think if Sans wasn't playable he'd probably almost certainly be an Assist Trophy and/or the Mii Costume would be retained though, so in my mind the perfect situation is Papyrus playable with Sans in another role in the battle, either as an Assist or as tricking someone into wearing a costume of him while eating conspicuously two-dimensional food backstage, cracking jokes like the newsletter said lol
 
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Megadoomer

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I think if we want a Goron for Smash, our best bet may either be Darunia or Daruk.
If Darunia got in, this would have to be one of his taunts:


And a victory pose.

You know what? Make it a part of his final smash too, with all of the Gorons (even the big ones) joining in only for them to cause an earthquake somehow due to all of the dancing.
 
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Laniv

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Oh my god, if Yunobo got in, he might actually become the most hated character on the roster. That is not a popular Goron
Do people really not like him? Why not?

wrt sans, I'll say what I said before:

I, for one, would kinda like to see Sans as a fighter... but:

1. In my opinion, every fan moveset I've seen for Sans fails to capture what makes him so liked

2. Appearing as a dud Assist Trophy, where he's summoned and does absolutely nothing, is the role Sans was born to play
In the hypothetical that Papyrus is playable, I wonder if Sans would hang around whenever he’s being played as, and.... not really contribute to the fight at all besides making jokes and subtly reacting to how well Papyrus is doing. He’d probably be in the same part of the background that Pokémon Trainer stands in.
Yeah, I feel like this is a great idea. And if you really want to have Sans physically join the fight, they could either

A. Have Sans sneakily help his brother by summoning some extra bones for his attacks

Or the far crazier option of

B. If Papyrus is KO'd, Sans joins the battle with powerful Gaster Blasters, long ranged dodges, and bone attacks that bypass shields and invincibility... but to counterbalance this, he's the lightest character on the roster, and he can only do this on Papyrus' last stock
 

Swamp Sensei

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Oh my god, if Yunobo got in, he might actually become the most hated character on the roster. That is not a popular Goron
I have some data to examine this idea.

Yunobo is the least popular Goron character on my poll (meaning Darunia and Daruk did significantly better), but he's not doing so bad I think people would hate him.

He's got about 30 votes, which isn't a lot, but isn't as bad as someone like Makar or Illia.
 

HyperSomari64

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Oh my god, if Yunobo got in, he might actually become the most hated character on the roster. That is not a popular Goron
Corrin is already here, and they're from a pretty divisive FE game.
Forget that, let's throw in Kiddy Kong and more "hated" characters from each major franchises in Smash. :troll:
 
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NintenRob

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Corrin is already here, and they're from a pretty divisive FE game.
Forget that, let's throw in Kiddy Kong and more "hated" characters from each major franchises in Smash. :troll:
Actually Kiddy Kong is a good analogue to Yunobo, disliked for similar reason.


Things may have turned around with Tears of the Kingdom. But in Breath of the wild, Yunobo was kinda just seen as a big useless baby goro
 

Gorgonzales

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If Papyrus is KO'd, Sans joins the battle with powerful Gaster Blasters, long ranged dodges, and bone attacks that bypass shields and invincibility... but to counterbalance this, he's the lightest character on the roster, and he can only do this on Papyrus' last stock
This just sounds like how Sans should play as a standalone character. At that point you'd just make him his own fighter.

I've always liked the approach of Sans being a hyper-powerful glass cannon that shatters if he's hit a few times but has ridiculous attack range/speed to compensate. Sort of imagining Sephiroth but being pushed to an even further extreme. Or Pichu before the dev team shattered his kneecaps.

No doubt Gaster Blasters would be fun to use, they're giant flippin' lasers. And I really think the idea of blue attacks would be super interesting for a platfighter, where you can avoid them by doing nothing (in an environment where everyone is ironically moving all the time).
 

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, Yunobo was kinda just seen as a big useless baby goro
Yeah but like....

He's my useless baby goro.

I think Yunobo was able to shed his reputation from his top tier appearance in Age of Calamity.
 

Slime Scholar

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Yunobo had me legitimately thinking about switching voices to Japanese in TotK, which is something in NEVER do, but I don’t think that would’ve made him much less annoying.

This probably sounds negative but I don’t think Zelda games have had very interesting characters for quite some time. Would much rather have Smash update the existing cast or pick an old fan favorite than add new characters just for the sake of it.
 

Ivander

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Yunobo had me legitimately thinking about switching voices to Japanese in TotK, which is something in NEVER do, but I don’t think that would’ve made him much less annoying.
I don't think it would've. As I said, he has Goku voice syndrome.
 
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