Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[JCKirbs]

I feel like they'd just have to be able to make up for it with Bandana Dee's strong distancing options otherwise. Just kind of making him a beast from a safe distance, having some of the most lethal poke attacks in the game, so this way if you leave yourself vulnerable it's kinda just your fault.



This moveset is pretty good! Seeing the mod in action helped convince me that the parasol can seamlessly work into his kit and not feel too out of place. Admittedly, I'm a bit unsure of the Aqua Shot because I would like to avoid giving Bandana Dee additional projectile options. Even though this one wouldn't be the most powerful or anything, I'd rather incentivize the player to keep their distance using the spear and avoid giving them an option for camping out. Using the parasol to rush forward on its own is fine by me, though.

But yeah, if Dee loses the spear, he should be forced to approach. Which means the parasol lunge would be sort of a risk in its own right, putting him closer toward his opponent with the knowledge that he doesn't have many other strong options to follow through with. I think that gels nicely with the general philosophy and avoids giving BWD an out that renders the risk / reward factor less relevant.

Oh yeah, I get that completely. I'd think some level of calculation on your opponent's position versus the perceived hitbox of your move could also be considered, so that you aren't just spamming your longest and strongest moves all the time.

Thank you as well!

As for Aqua Shot, I think one of the best examples I'd use to portray my vision of the move is with both Corrin's Neutral and Bowser Jr's Mechakoopa (it's SUCH a good tool when used right). For starters, I don't think the water ball has to move particularly fast, and I think it should be very obvious when Bandana Dee is charging the move. As for the projectile itself, I think at a low charge it could push the player away without dealing damage (similar to F.L.U.D.D) but with a full change it'd move much slower while having stunning capabilities. I just... really like the idea of setting up Aqua Shot into Parasol Drill or Ground Thrust, or maybe having the option to bait players while charging Aqua Shot, only to active Parasol Drill instead, catching them off-guard. I think to balance it though, Aqua Shot and Parasol Drill could stop on shields, making it more of a shield-pressurizer if it's blocked while also being more easily punishable. Again, to increase the risk and reduce spamming.

But that's my philosophy, because I've also been told a few times before that Spear Throws make for more than enough projectiles in the case of someone like B. Dee, and I still completely respect that viewpoint!

 

[NintenRob]

I have exhausted pretty much all of Reddit that I can.

In the effort of being as transparent as possible, here are the subreddits that have the poll, subreddits you won't find the poll on, and maybe some that could appear in the future.

Spoiler: Subreddits

Subreddits Who Have The Poll

• Super Smash Bros
• Donkey Kong
• Xenoblade
• Star Fox
• Kirby
• Earthbound
• Punch Out!!
• Advance Wars
• Chibi-Robo
• Ring Fit Adventure
• Paper Mario
• Pokemon
• Casual Nintendo
• Panel de Pon
• Famicom Detective Club

Subreddits Who Said No (Don't bug them)

• Zelda
• Wii Fit
• Golden Sun
• Animal Crossing
• Nintendo

Subreddits Who Have Not Responded Yet

• Smash Bros
• Smash Ultimate
• Pikmin
• F-Zero
• Fire Emblem
• Metroid
• ARMS
• Rhythm Heaven
• Mario
• Splatoon
• Astral Chain
• Kid Icarus
• HotelDusk
• Wario
• Yoshi
• Dragalia Lost
• Nintendo Switch
• Mario RPG
• Mario and Luigi

I have no clue if there are any other subreddits to even take this thing to. I don't want to post the poll without permission. There were some other possibilities like Starfy, Sin and Punishment and Wonderful 101, but those subreddits are so small or inactive. Some of them haven't seen posts in years.

I think Reddit is done for the most part. Unless some of the subreddits who haven't answered yet answer, I think its time to move on to a new website.

May I recommend r/Zeldamemes, it's usually seen as the less strict version of r/Zelda

 

[Swamp Sensei]

May I recommend r/Zeldamemes, it's usually seen as the less strict version of r/Zelda

I don't know if a meme Reddit would be receptive.

 

[SharkLord]

Since we're talking about it, I figure I should get into an idea that I've had bouncing around in my head for a bit. My preferred angle with BWD has evolved into one that emphasizes his unassuming nature as a Waddle Dee, allowing them to explore the inherent silliness of effectively a playable mook but still giving him the credibility and abilities that we've come to associate with him over the last decade.

In effect, if you've played Samurai Shodown, there is a mechanic where some attacks (either dealt by you or toward you) will force you to drop your weapon and grant you a number of physical attacks to fend off the opponent while you scramble to grab it. We've explored this somewhat, with attacks like K. Rool's Crown Boomerang, but it got me thinking about ways we can elaborate on it further in Smash Bros. And Bandana Dee, with his ability to represent both the character himself and the adorable species he is a part of, as well as the fact that he will often toss his spear, felt like a great fit for this dichotomy.

With his spear in hand, Bandana Dee possesses great range and power. He can attack swiftly, he has a number of strong KO options and likely some sort of subtle tipper mechanic. But certain attacks would provide a risk reward factor, such as his signature spear throw, which has BWD commit fully to letting the spear leave his hands and hoping he's made the smartest decision / given him enough time to grab it back after the fact. Without the spear, BWD will appear nervous and erratic. He is regulated to a few simple attacks with his stubby limbs, not unlike Olimar or SoPo, although perhaps a bit more capable. In this form we kind of get to play as a "normal" Waddle Dee, humorously tripping into opponents but still giving it his all until he can grab that spear once more.

That's kind of the mentality I've developed to give him an interesting hook, allow him to convey quite a unique range of personality and humor and I feel still stay true to the roots of the character and his role within the Kirby series. Alongside his Waddle Dee compatriots... without getting too far into the whole like, props that other Waddle Dees use thing. I'm open to the parasol but my initial instinct would be to try and make him spear exclusive.



I don't think anyone is saying this, thankfully.

Giving BWD the SamSho treatment is certainly a choice... But I can't say I'm really against it. In the games he can just pull another spear out of nowhere and keep going, but Smash is no stranger to freestyling, with mechanics and traits that aren't directly from the source material but still fit the general vibe of the character (K. Rool and Incineroar, anyone?) And compared to Meta Knight or Dedede, BWD hasn't been given any special powers independent of his spear, unless you count the goofy air hops he does in place of flying, so having him be weakened without his spear would actually be quite fitting. Pyra dabbles with throwable weapons a bit, but she's completely helpless and the sword automatically returns anyways, so BWD building a moveset around that could be interesting.

Wonder how the Triple Spear Throw would factor in. Perhaps it's more commital, but also gives more spears he could grab?

 

[Idon]

I am no longer asking.

Put Estelle in Smash.

If we get the entire trilogy remade across the Switch and Switch 2, this is PERFECT timing for her inclusion and Trails is THE franchise for Nihon Falcom.

 

[Lionfranky]

Can we discuss Master Chief?

What's his chance?

Would previous strong support carry over?

Would he the most requested character without game on Nintendo?

 

[BritishGuy54]

Can we discuss Master Chief?

What's his chance?

Would previous strong support carry over?

Would he the most requested character without game on Nintendo?

I’m not confident in his chances.

If Microsoft outright don’t return, it’s 0%. And even if they do, which I predict it will be via DLC, there may be other priorities.

 

[Oracle Link]

Giving BWD the SamSho treatment is certainly a choice... But I can't say I'm really against it. In the games he can just pull another spear out of nowhere and keep going, but Smash is no stranger to freestyling, with mechanics and traits that aren't directly from the source material but still fit the general vibe of the character (K. Rool and Incineroar, anyone?) And compared to Meta Knight or Dedede, BWD hasn't been given any special powers independent of his spear, unless you count the goofy air hops he does in place of flying, so having him be weakened without his spear would actually be quite fitting. Pyra dabbles with throwable weapons a bit, but she's completely helpless and the sword automatically returns anyways, so BWD building a moveset around that could be interesting.

Wonder how the Triple Spear Throw would factor in. Perhaps it's more commital, but also gives more spears he could grab?

Hes used the parasol in kirby battle royale! Also its pretty easy justifying him using a beam whip!
I mean if ness can use paulas spells why cant bwd use a waddle doo technique!

 

[fogbadge]

Can we discuss Master Chief?

What's his chance?

Would previous strong support carry over?

Would he the most requested character without game on Nintendo?

he is one of those character's who chances are vastly over estimated

 

[Shinuto]

Bandanna Dee doesn't deserve his position when Adeleine was right there in 64...just saying.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Bandanna Dee doesn't deserve his position when Adeleine was right there in 64...just saying.

There is a capable Waddle Dee in 64. Both of them should be on the table.

 

[Kirbeh]

Bandanna Dee doesn't deserve his position when Adeleine was right there in 64...just saying.

And before Adeleine you had Gooey and the many animal buddies. What makes her more deserving than the supporting characters from previous or later entries to the series?

 

[TheQuester]

In fairness to this, everything for 4 was decided pretty early on...at a time where Black and White were very recent, even. Meanwhile, assuming the next Smash is getting planned this year at the latest, Sword and Shield are almost five years old.

So there's definitely a larger gap. It could get Hoenn'd.

Smash 4 started development in March 2012 (acording to google), so Black and White wasn't even two years old.
Sword and Shield are nearly 5 years old and they weren't very well recived, so i' m not as confident with a Sword and Shield stage, tbh, i even see Legends: Arceus getting the Gen 8 stage spot over Sword and Shield.

Also, a Trails of Sky remake just was anounced, i wonder if this means Estelle is the frontrunner of the series now and not Rean anymore (I think a Trails rep would be DLC, so i think this remake could still influence the decision if they pick a trails rep somehow)

 

[fogbadge]

Sword and Shield are nearly 5 years old and they weren't very well recived

yes selling over 20 million copies, the tell tale sign of being poorly received

 

[TheQuester]

yes selling over 20 million copies, the tell tale sign of being poorly received

sales =/= reception

 

[fogbadge]

sales =/= reception

you don’t reach 20 million with a bad reception

 

[Shinuto]

And before Adeleine you had Gooey and the many animal buddies. What makes her more deserving than the supporting characters from previous or later entries to the series?

Better moveset potential

 

[TheQuester]

you don’t reach 20 million with a bad reception

It's a mainline Pokemon game, it's going to sell well regardless.

 

[Perkilator]

Ironically, I think BWD has some of the richest moveset potential compared to other candidates. You could have him be a stance character that switches between Spear and Parasol, or you could aim for a simpler moveset that combines the two with a Beam staff, just for a couple of examples.

 

[fogbadge]

It's a mainline Pokemon game, it's going to sell well regardless.

yes but it’s hardly going to be the second best selling games in the series

 

[RileyXY1]

yes selling over 20 million copies, the tell tale sign of being poorly received

In fact Sword and Shield were the very first mainline Pokémon games since Gold and Silver to exceed 20 million copies.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

yes selling over 20 million copies, the tell tale sign of being poorly received

Just because they sold well doesnt mean its a good game.

Everything about it felt cheap and subpar.

yes but it’s hardly going to be the second best selling games in the series

That was because people were gaslit into thinking these were the first Pokemon games on console.

(Coloseum on the gamecube was first)

 

[superprincess]

Rainbow Cruise, Mushroomy Kingdom, Delfino Plaza and New Donk City Hall?

You forgot Luigi's Mansion.

Still a pretty bad ratio though, that's 5 out of 18 stages that deviate from the sunny grassland aesthetic. And I'd argue Rainbow Cruise barely slips by.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

That was because people were gaslit into thinking these were the first Pokemon games on console.

(Coloseum on the gamecube was first)

No longer canon. (But it should be. )

 

[fogbadge]

Just because they sold well doesnt mean its a good game.

Everything about it felt cheap and subpar.



That was because people were gaslit into thinking these were the first Pokemon games on console.

(Coloseum on the gamecube was first)

first part is just your opinion and doesn’t mean everyone thought the same. Cause let me remind you this is the second best selling in a franchise that is one of best selling in gaming

second part is all wrong in so many ways. No one ever claimed these were the first Pokemon games on a home console. Even then the first was stadium on the N64. At best people would have thought these were the first main set titles and if they thought that they discount the let’s go games for some reason. So unless you can gaslight yourself this assertion doesn’t stand up to scrutiny

See the reality is that Sw/Sh are actually largely well received. I’m afraid those of you who didn’t like it are what I believe we call the vocal minority. I was in the middle of the fandom during the discourse over these games and it largely died out when they came out.

Another thing to remember is that reaching the number took a while and if it was as hated as you claim those reports would have put people off. See you’re perfectly fine to hate the games yourself but never think you speak for all of us

 

[Louie G.]

Better moveset potential

I’d argue Gooey’s potential is pretty potent. He has access to any of the abilities Kirby used in Dream Land 3, and he is a Dark Matter blob that can adopt elements of Dark Matter / Zero as they see fit. This is what Star Allies does. A lot of people have voiced interest in playable Dark Matter and IMO this would be the most productive way to do it.

And being such a simple design, you can kinda make him contort into whatever you like. Plenty of creative liberty but there’s a lot to garner from what’s already there too. Not that I think he’s a frontrunner or anything but he’s got about as much potential as Adeleine does. It’s kinda hard to argue any of these characters have less potential than the other since Star Allies gave them all a bunch of fun stuff to do.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

first part is just your opinion and doesn’t mean everyone thought the same. Cause let me remind you this is the second best selling in a franchise that is one of best selling in gaming

second part is all wrong in so many ways. No one ever claimed these were the first Pokemon games on a home console. Even then the first was stadium on the N64. At best people would have thought these were the first main set titles and if they thought that they discount the let’s go games for some reason. So unless you can gaslight yourself this assertion doesn’t stand up to scrutiny

See the reality is that Sw/Sh are actually largely well received. I’m afraid those of you who didn’t like it are what I believe we call the vocal minority. I was in the middle of the fandom during the discourse over these games and it largely died out when they came out.

Another thing to remember is that reaching the number took a while and if it was as hated as you claim those reports would have put people off. See you’re perfectly fine to hate the games yourself but never think you speak for all of us

They werent well recieved, i still see people dunking on the graphics and story to this day, you dont get something like that if people actually liked your game.
The first main series Pokemon game on console was Colosseum on the gamecube over a decade before Sword and shield were released, but people gaslit themselves into thinking Sword and shield was the first so they bought it to check it outthen moved on to the next thing.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Sword and Shield is only disliked on the internet by a vocal minority. The general audience likes that game.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

The general public doesnt have strong opinions one way or another because they already forgot Sword and shield exists.

 

[Louie G.]

This argument about SWSH’s reception is pointless because here’s the truth of the matter - even if the game was received poorly, if the timing lined up it would be getting a character in Smash. Period.

Its financial success speaks for itself anyway. Same with Scarlet and Violet. The latter released looking unfinished with a bunch of glitches. It still sold like hotcakes and if Smash came out next year it would still be getting a character. Given the success of both games, being some of the best selling titles on Switch, both are clearly fair game to get some sort of stage and plentiful Pokeball summons. The masses still like Pokemon, all of it.

If Gen 10 lines up, it will have a character slotted in before the game releases to see any sort of reception. It could be the worst game ever made and plans would have been in motion to represent it a year in advance.

 

[Will]

Can we discuss Master Chief?

What's his chance?

Would previous strong support carry over?

Would he the most requested character without game on Nintendo?

His chances are nonzero and heavily dependent on the other two returning.

He’s as influential as other recently obtained Microsoft IP/titles (any Bethesda game, Battletoads, etc), so he would have competition.

Last question’s answer is no, because the most requested non-Nintendo characters don’t have video game origins like —>

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

The general public doesnt have strong opinions one way or another because they already forgot Sword and shield exists.

You can't prove that. The game is still selling, despite being 5 years old, so I'd say it's the exact opposite. People haven't forgotten that the game exists. You obviously have an inherent bias against Sword & Shield, and its clouding your judgement.

 

[Guynamednelson]

You can't prove that. The game is still selling, despite being 5 years old, so I'd say it's the exact opposite. People haven't forgotten that the game exists. You obviously have an inherent bias against Sword & Shield, and its clouding your judgement.

And you have an inherent bias FOR Sword & Shield that's clouding your judgment. Just because it has Pokemon in its name doesn't mean it's a good game.

 

[Will]

so much discourse about a pokemon generation that probably missed its chance to get repped by a playable character

 

[Swamp Sensei]

And you have an inherent bias FOR Sword & Shield that's clouding your judgment. Just because it has Pokemon in its name doesn't mean it's a good game.

You can't prove that. The game is still selling, despite being 5 years old, so I'd say it's the exact opposite. People haven't forgotten that the game exists. You obviously have an inherent bias against Sword & Shield, and its clouding your judgement.

This is because only I have the objective truth regarding Sword and Shield.

I shall share my objective truth now.

Spoiler

It's aight.

 

[JCKirbs]

Wonder how the Triple Spear Throw would factor in. Perhaps it's more commital, but also gives more spears he could grab?

Waddle Triple Throw would probably cause any of the three spears to deal damage, with two spears disappearing if all of them make contact with a surface. It'd nonetheless take a bit to charge though.

Better moveset potential

Really?... I'd imagine that banking on her most unique aspect would probably result in a slower, more predictable moveset that relies mostly on set-ups, like Rosalina with Luma-shaped Mechakoopas, Pac-Man minus whatever versatility he has, or Robin who sacrifices speed for everything else.

(This is speaking from a competitive lens, since any character could be given a pass from a casual perspective. But even then, some of the most exciting matches are gloves-off competitive based.)

I’d argue Gooey’s potential is pretty potent. He has access to any of the abilities Kirby used in Dream Land 3, and he is a Dark Matter blob that can adopt elements of Dark Matter / Zero as they see fit. This is what Star Allies does. A lot of people have voiced interest in playable Dark Matter and IMO this would be the most productive way to do it.

And being such a simple design, you can kinda make him contort into whatever you like. Plenty of creative liberty but there’s a lot to garner from what’s already there too. Not that I think he’s a frontrunner or anything but he’s got about as much potential as Adeleine does. It’s kinda hard to argue any of these characters have less potential than the other since Star Allies gave them all a bunch of fun stuff to do.

May I also just say that I've never seen someone get as big of a pass in... any regard as Gooey, though. Both in simplistic design and that a majority of his moves are borrowed from Kirby's arsenal even existing in Smash like Stone and Burning, while mimicking copy abilities like Whip and some subtleties of Parasol. This is just referring to his recent portrayals specifically. If he was to harness a subset of Dark Matter's powers, that would be a whole other thing.

No one ever bats an eye though, referring mainly to surface-level thinkers, while criticizing Bandana Dee for the potential of being too similar to (Spear) Kirby in the context of Smash despite him even mastering versatile moves that not even Spear Kirby can canonically pull off.

 

[Shinuto]

Waddle Triple Throw would probably cause any of the three spears to deal damage, with two spears disappearing if all of them make contact with a surface. It'd nonetheless take a bit to charge though.



Really?... I'd imagine that banking on her most unique aspect would probably result in a slower, more predictable moveset that relies mostly on set-ups, like Rosalina with Luma-shaped Mechakoopas, Pac-Man minus whatever versatility he has, or Robin who sacrifices speed for everything else.

(This is speaking from a competitive lens, since any character could be given a pass from a casual perspective. But even then, some of the most exciting matches are gloves-off competitive based.)



May I also just say that I've never seen someone get as big of a pass in... any regard as Gooey, though. Both in simplistic design and that a majority of his moves are borrowed from Kirby's arsenal even existing in Smash like Stone and Burning, while mimicking copy abilities like Whip and some subtleties of Parasol. This is just referring to his recent portrayals specifically. If he was to harness a subset of Dark Matter's powers, that would be a whole other thing.

No one ever bats an eye though, referring mainly to surface-level thinkers, while criticizing Bandana Dee for the potential of being too similar to (Spear) Kirby in the context of Smash despite him even mastering versatile moves that not even Spear Kirby can canonically pull off.

You and I both know they made Robin way too slow for no reason. Their kit does not justify that ass tier speed.

 

[Ivander]

Pokemon Sword and Shield a bad game? Meanwhile:

 

[BuckleyTim]

My opinion on SW/SH is that any video game that doesn't go down in price is my enemy. This includes all other Nintendo games, of course.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

For real though guys, you're arguing like five different things about Sword and Shield. You can't just slap around accusations of bias. Arguing that people don't care when a game sold 20 million copies can't be accurate. Casual fans don't have the memories of a goldfish. Conversely, implying that people gas lit themselves is pretentious.

Sword and Shield is in the same category as Fire Emblem Fates. The game has a lot of fans, but it has a lot of detractors. It's not unpopular, its divisive. There is a staunch difference.

But like, the quality or reception of Sword and Shield doesn't actually matter. Games with subpar reception get included all the time. Look at Other M or Sticker Star, games MUCH worse than any Pokemon game.