Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[pitchfulprocessing]

I actually don't remember the writing in Sword/Shield being all that bad. The story absolutely is, but not the writing.

Compare that to X & Y, where the story is only somewhat less bad, and the writing is absolute GARBAGE!

Do the Pokemon games really have significant differences in writing quality? I feel like all the mainline entries pretty much have the same kind of prose.

 

[Swaggod7]

Rainbow Cruise, Mushroomy Kingdom, Delfino Plaza and New Donk City Hall?

Those are irrelevant at the moment like does anyone remember Mushroomy Kingdom?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Steve is a character that is ambiguously brown, that is, he's dark enough that he stands out from others, but his actual race is unclear. And as Opossum said, the character got very whitewashed in merchandise. I mean, who is this guy:

View attachment 393828

I'm black and I personally don't count him as a character of color, but I don't fault anyone who does count him. EDIT: Especially since he's one of the few brown people in this game that isn't an alt for someone else, the other being Ganondorf who is... well, you know.

Here's why Barret Wallace should be the next Final Fantasy character

Whitewashed Steve Plushie isn't real. He can't hurt you.

Whitewashed Steve Plushie.

 

[Swaggod7]

But on a serious note I think they should add Ratboy Genius instead of 4 new Fire Emblem characters just because it would so funny to see everybody's faces during the reveal

 

[Speed Weed]

Clearly Smash having a lack of PoC rep simply means we need B.D. Joe. In this essay, I will

 

[Perkilator]

In all honesty, I kind of like Opossum 's idea of adding Marina.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Do the Pokemon games really have significant differences in writing quality? I feel like all the mainline entries pretty much have the same kind of prose.

I think they both suffer from similar pacing issues in terms of trying to juggle too many subplots and not giving enough attention to what are supposed to be the big showstopper ones until they spring up at the end. Both even have the issue of the evil team leader being an absolute idiot, and not in an intentional way.

Pokémon Sword/Shield does handle it a bit better though, comparing Hop, Bede, and Marnie to Serena/Callum, Shauna, Tierno, and...Trevor? The difference is night and day. Each character has their standout moments, even Marnie, who doesn't really contribute much to the main plot. Meanwhile Serena/Callum has basically no personality, Shauna is your love interest for the beginning, then doesn't do much until the climax, and Tierno and Trevor never do anything and have their entire characters summarized as "dancer" and "nerd" respectively.

Those are irrelevant at the moment like does anyone remember Mushroomy Kingdom?

I remember how they took away the World 1-2 version! JUSTICE FOR MUSHROOMY KINGDOM!!!

Also are you implying that Rainbow Cruise isn't a notable stage?

 

[Gorgonzales]

I see Steve as brown, which is cool and all, but I'm not sure why a character's race matters so much to people in a game whose cast consists of wacky characters from all kinds of video games. It's a children's party game where you can pit a crocodile king against a baby turtle piloting a clown mech against an obnoxious farting biker against a yellow ball with limbs.

More PoC representation would be cool, but you have to remember that this game pulls from the most popular video game characters, and most of them happen to be either white or non-human. It's not Smash's fault there aren't that many black protagonists in games. If you aren't satisfied with that, then you're always free to be the change you wish to see in the world and create a game with a black protagonist. Maybe it could pop off and things could come full circle and your character could join! It's a pipe dream, but it's not impossible.

I'm Arab and could literally care less about an Arab character getting into this series. I don't pick characters based on nationality, I pick them on their game's/character's significance, the uniqueness of the character (in abilities or body shape), and how interesting their gameplay mechanics could translate into a platform fighter. My most wanted characters are a pile of sentient cubes, an ant-sized gremlin that rolls a sticky ball around, and an armless yellow dog. It'd be way cooler to play as any of them than a guy who just happens to share my ethnic background. It's not that serious.

 

[Opossum]

I think they both suffer from similar pacing issues in terms of trying to juggle too many subplots and not giving enough attention to what are supposed to be the big showstopper ones until they spring up at the end. Both even have the issue of the evil team leader being an absolute idiot, and not in an intentional way.

Pokémon Sword/Shield does handle it a bit better though, comparing Hop, Bede, and Marnie to Serena/Callum, Shauna, Tierno, and...Trevor? The difference is night and day. Each character has their standout moments, even Marnie, who doesn't really contribute much to the main plot. Meanwhile Serena/Callum has basically no personality, Shauna is your love interest for the beginning, then doesn't do much until the climax, and Tierno and Trevor never do anything and have their entire characters summarized as "dancer" and "nerd" respectively.


I remember how they took away the World 1-2 version! JUSTICE FOR MUSHROOMY KINGDOM!!!

Also are you implying that Rainbow Cruise isn't a notable stage?

I will absolutely defend Tierno when it comes to XY's cast. He was honestly the stand out of the friend group imo.

On the other end of things, I actually don't think Marnie was done justice like...at all in SwSh. Hop? Yeah he's great. Bede? I like his arc even if his prolonged absence after Stow-on-Side makes it feel a tad rushed.

Marnie got sidelined hard and never felt, like, complete. Granted, SwSh's best rivals were Klara and Avery, but still.

 

[cashregister9]

On the topic of Steve, Since Steve was added to Smash, they added a bunch of new Default outfits to Minecraft alongside Alex

(Ari, Efe, Noor, Kai, Makena, Sunny, Zuri)

I wouldn't mind at all if they made up Steve's alts in the next smash, It would add a lot of new diversity to the game and represent Minecraft just a bit more. It would be a bit of a loss to lose the alts they already had, but hopefully in the next smash we get more alts overall so it isn't much of a problem.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I give Sword/Shield a lot of ****, mainly for the story and the region design, but at the end of the day they’re not awful games by any means. Just kind of bland.

Certainly nothing worth getting heated over

I guarantee the backlash the games wouldn't have been nearly as strong if Rose was written better as a villain and there were more locations like the Wild Area (which itself could've been designed better).

In hindsight, the Wild Area almost feels like beta testing for the open worlds of Legends Arceus and ScarVio. It's even more jarring without the Isle of Armor and Crown Tundra DLC giving the game additional, more complete and natural-looking open-world environments.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I will absolutely defend Tierno when it comes to XY's cast. He was honestly the stand out of the friend group imo.

On the other end of things, I actually don't think Marnie was done justice like...at all in SwSh. Hop? Yeah he's great. Bede? I like his arc even if his prolonged absence after Stow-on-Side makes it feel a tad rushed.

Marnie got sidelined hard and never felt, like, complete. Granted, SwSh's best rivals were Klara and Avery, but still.

Yeah, as it stands, if they leaned into the more socioeconomic side of Team Yell, Marnie could be removed entirely and nothing would change. For her standout moments, I'm more referring to the quiet moments she has with Morpeko, though I suppose that's about as much presence as Tierno and Trevor got, so eh. She does at least have more complex motivations than those two from what I remember.

I do think she has the most potential out of those three, and she, Pierce, and Team Yell, could easily have had a more impactful role in Chairman Rose's story arc by having his and theirs clash in a much less implied way. Honestly the could easily have been the best parts of the story if they weren't so criminally underbaked.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Those are irrelevant at the moment like does anyone remember Mushroomy Kingdom?

Well yeah? It's literally 1-1. It's one of the most famous stages of all time.

In all honesty, I kind of like Opossum 's idea of adding Marina.

Marina would be dope.

On my poll, Octoling is far and away the most wanted Splatoon character, but last I checked Marina was second.


As for PoCs in Smash. It's kind of a shame Smash has so few, because Nintendo has been doing pretty well with that this generation. And I'm not counting avatars

• As stated above, Marina is super popular. This generation also gave us Frye for Splatoon.
• Twintelle from ARMS is one of the most popular characters from her franchise, to the point where she had to be placed in the demo due to popularity. There's also other characters like Min Min and Misango (though apparently he is super unpopular).
• Pokemon has continued its successful venture with PoC characters that they started since Gen VI.
• Zelda had given the Gerudo a pretty big upgrade in importance and gave us fan favorites like Urbosa and Riju (and dark skinned Hylians are much more common).
• Pikmin 4 gave us a ton of PoC characters like Captain Shephard and the pilot who's name I can't remember because there's an obscene amount of characters in that game.
• Fire Emblem has been trying to include people with different skin tones since Awakening, with characters like Flavia, Basillo, Claude, Catherine, Timerra, Ash, etc.
• Xenoblade is now trying to to give more characters more skin tones with Vandham, important NPCs, blades and arguably Sena, and that's not including Elma being the main face of XCX (though can we count her?)
• Metroid's last adventure didn't have any new human characters but I am legally obligated by Diddy Kong to bring up the majesty that is Anthony Higgs (bring him back, he was cool).
• And people like Opossum and Louie G. may object if I didn't mention Punch Out!! And how the Wii game turned a bunch of harmful stereotypes into fleshed out characters that mostly respect her original ethnicities and languages.

Frankly, most of the Nintendo franchises in Smash are making strides to include more PoCs. The only ones that aren't are currently MIA, star non-human creatures or... Mario related... Hmm....

And to give Smash credit, most of the avatars in the game (barring Fire Emblem ones) allow for different skin tones now. I can kind of understand why Byleth doesn't allow that considering you can't change their design.

But why can't you change Robin's or Corrin's skin tones? You could radically change their designs in their home games.

 

[Laniv]

I see Steve as brown, which is cool and all, but I'm not sure why a character's race matters so much to people in a game whose cast consists of wacky characters from all kinds of video games. It's a children's party game where you can pit a crocodile king against a baby turtle piloting a clown mech against an obnoxious farting biker against a yellow ball with limbs.

More PoC representation would be cool, but you have to remember that this game pulls from the most popular video game characters, and most of them happen to be either white or non-human. It's not Smash's fault there aren't that many black protagonists in games. If you aren't satisfied with that, then you're always free to be the change you wish to see in the world and create a game with a black protagonist. Maybe it could pop off and things could come full circle and your character could join! It's a pipe dream, but it's not impossible.

I'm Arab and could literally care less about an Arab character getting into this series. My most wanted characters are a pile of sentient cubes, an ant-sized gremlin that rolls a sticky ball around, and an armless yellow dog. It'd be way cooler to play as any of them than a guy who just happens to share my ethnic background. It's not that serious.

If there's 89 characters in a game and only two of them have dark skin (one of which is kind of a racial stereotype), then yeah, I'd say it matters.

Like how sad is it that PlayStation All-Stars had better black rep than Smash Bros

 

[Idon]

I'm a little disappointed that it looks like it's not a tactics game anymore.

But yes! Estelle and Kiryu for Smash! The time is now!

Oh no, it absolutely is.

Once you actually smack someone you move into a turn based menu with the same AoEs and timeline.

The biggest difference is instead of a grid, it just has the characters placed naturally like how they've done it with Cold Steel and beyond.

 

[Noipoi]

I guarantee the backlash the games wouldn't have been nearly as strong if Rose was written better as a villain and there were more locations like the Wild Area (which itself could've been designed better).

if the plot was just a straightforward tournament arc I’d have much more respect for it. Maybe it wouldn’t be amazing but it could be a charming story about some kids trying to compete in the biggest sport in the country. That’s kinda what it was for the first chunk of the game.

Then they suddenly remember that have to have a villain and his motivations are poorly thought out and it’s very abrupt and it all just…falls apart

In hindsight, the Wild Area almost feels like beta testing for the open worlds of Legends Arceus and ScarVio. It's even more jarring without the Isle of Armor and Crown Tundra DLC giving the game additional, more complete and natural-looking open-world environments.

Between the base game and the dlc you could really see them working out the next games in real time. It was wacky.

 

[ninjahmos]

A POC character for Smash is long overdue.

…Which is why I think we need Doc Louis for Smash.

 

[fogbadge]

A POC character for Smash is long overdue.

…Which is why I think we need Doc Louis for Smash.

you say that as if we have zero

I guarantee the backlash the games wouldn't have been nearly as strong if Rose was written better as a villain

I think you vastly over estimate the value pokemon fans place on sotry

 

[KingofPhantoms]

What about Urbosa or Riju? I honestly think any of the Champions or Sages would be great additions to the roster. All of them barring maybe Teba (who's still a great character in his own right) get about equal screentime and have plenty of unique abilities that would make for great movesets in Smash, and those two are no exception.

I'll also vouch for Doc Louis as well. I just think his chances would be much higher if another Punch-Out game had released since the Wii game (which one sadly hasn't).

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

I think one of Adeleine's inherent strengths would be recognizing various aspects of the Dark Matter Trilogy through her art as well, so that's also something.

I would argue that the Octacon drawing she made in Star Allies (and possibly the implications of the old Twitter art) suggests she has the ability to draw creatures from across the series. This is the one thing that could potentially give her an advantage over the rest, as she could carry other aspects of the series just through her art, mitigating the high Super Star bias Smash typically has. Of course, it would... probably be better if there were other characters standing as Kirby representatives on their own, but it nonetheless seems like an option.

 

[Slime Scholar]

A POC character for Smash is long overdue.

…Which is why I think we need Doc Louis for Smash.

Love Doc, although I’m worried he’d be perceived as a “joke” character (fat, over-the-hill old-timer who makes a ton of dad jokes). He’s undoubtedly my favorite first party choice though.

you know who I’d really love to see? Barret. Yes, I know there’s already two FF7 characters, but he’s fun and memorable, especially in the Remake games where he’s allowed to shine more.

 

[Opossum]

Love Doc, although I’m worried he’d be perceived as a “joke” character (fat, over-the-hill old-timer who makes a ton of dad jokes). He’s undoubtedly my favorite first party choice though.

you know who I’d really love to see? Barret. Yes, I know there’s already two FF7 characters, but he’s fun and memorable, especially in the Remake games where he’s allowed to shine more.

Honestly on the Doc point, I think the easiest way to avoid it coming off that way is to really lean into his quirks and make him an Install character. Have his down special be a once-per-stock move where he pulls out his chocolate bar, and, much like in his fight in Doc Louis's Punch-Out!!, the opponent can either let him finish it at the expense of Doc healing a significant amount of damage, or hit him to knock it away...at which point he'd activate a rage mode install where his power and speed are significantly increased. A pick-your-poison mind games style move to augment his heavyweight boxing moveset.

It makes him go from being perceived as a joke, to making the opponent respect him and realize why he's a former heavyweight champion.

But also yeah Barret would be amazing. Easily my favorite FFVII character.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Adeleine and Gooey would both have fun movesets, though after Dee is added, I'm not expecting any Kirby newcomers for a long time. I can accept that though, cause having the full quartet will be nice.

 

[Slime Scholar]

Honestly on the Doc point, I think the easiest way to avoid it coming off that way is to really lean into his quirks and make him an Install character. Have his down special be a once-per-stock move where he pulls out his chocolate bar, and, much like in his fight in Doc Louis's Punch-Out!!, the opponent can either let him finish it at the expense of Doc healing a significant amount of damage, or hit him to knock it away...at which point he'd activate a rage mode install where his power and speed are significantly increased. A pick-your-poison mind games style move to augment his heavyweight boxing moveset.

It makes him go from being perceived as a joke, to making the opponent respect him and realize why he's a former heavyweight champion.

I always imagined him having a Star Punch mechanic, where he can earn a star off of an opponent through a well timed jab (maybe as a counter like Incineroar’s Revenge?) and cash in on it later with powered up moves.

 

[Arcanir]

Pokemon has continued its successful venture with PoC characters that they started since Gen VI.

Slight nitpick, but Gen V started to dabble in it with Lenora and Iris. Lenora was an unfortunate fumble due to her design overlapping with a stereotype, but Iris (at least in the games) was a standout for being the last gym leader and later champion of the region.

Pokémon Sword/Shield does handle it a bit better though, comparing Hop, Bede, and Marnie to Serena/Callum, Shauna, Tierno, and...Trevor? The difference is night and day. Each character has their standout moments, even Marnie, who doesn't really contribute much to the main plot. Meanwhile Serena/Callum has basically no personality, Shauna is your love interest for the beginning, then doesn't do much until the climax, and Tierno and Trevor never do anything and have their entire characters summarized as "dancer" and "nerd" respectively.

Serena/Calum are probably my least favorite player character rival/NPC. They try to make them a competitive rival in the vein of Cheren, but lack any interesting traits or development for them to stick in my mind so they end up being forgettable. Them also pulling a 'both sides' with Lysandre also didn’t help, but that's a consequence of the story trying to make Lysandre sympathetic and dropping the ball hard. As for the others, Shauna and Tierno have their moments, but are let down by the lack of focus and Trevor... exists.

SwSh's rivals aren't perfect, but at least Hop and Bebe have defined character arcs and Klara (got Sword, so I can't speak for Avery) was a good antagonistic rival. Marnie was the only real weak link, but she had potential with her connection to Team Yell/Piers and trying to put her home town back on the map.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Those that might say older platformer mascots have no chance of a Smash cameo because a lack of appearance on Nintendo consoles?

What a Croc.

Argonaut software appears to be resurrected to boot

So, if an ironic Buck Bumble fandom does spring up soon, you'll know why.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Those that might say older platformer mascots have no chance of a Smash cameo because a lack of appearance on Nintendo consoles?

What a Croc.

Something something comparing Banjo to Croc's legacy.

Jokes aside, wow, what a time to be alive!

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Serena/Calum are probably my least favorite player character rival/NPC. They try to make them a competitive rival in the vein of Cheren, but lack any interesting traits or development for them to stick in my mind so they end up being forgettable. Them also pulling a 'both sides' with Lysandre also didn’t help, but that's a consequence of the story trying to make Lysandre sympathetic and dropping the ball hard. As for the others, Shauna and Tierno have their moments, but are let down by the lack of focus and Trevor... exists.

Honestly, I think Shauna might be my least favorite character in XY's little friend group, because despite getting the third starter kinda like Bianca does in BW, you only ever fight her twice (for reference of the time between them, you fight her after she gets her starter at level 5, and the second time you fight her she has a fully evolved starter, a Delcatty, and a Goodra at level 49-51), and in between all they do with her is make her a love interest for like 10 minutes at Parfum Palace and then she basically does nothing until you're in Team Flare's base and she opens a door with Clemont's puzzle cube.

Like as someone whose favorite Generation is Gen 5, playing X and Y blind when I was younger and seeing Shauna suddenly appearing in Team Flare's base, I thought she had made a difficult decision to become part of Team Flare to save herself and her Pokemon and maybe her friends and family if they were willing to listen or something, but nah, she just walks into a villain headquarters to stick a cube on a door for about 15 seconds, which could've been done by literally anyone. Tierno and Trevor don't have much going on either, but at least I didn't have any ideas about them doing anything more than they showed at the start.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Something something comparing Banjo to Croc's legacy.

Jokes aside, wow, what a time to be alive!

Preservation is always ideal, and especially with the dubiously emulated 5th gen, getting any platformer game in modern, streamlined form is nice.

Also, funny that this is the closest to a 3D Yoshi game we have on Switch.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Argonaut software appears to be resurrected to boot

But will they team up with Nintendo to re-revive Star Fox?

...or at least Stunt Race FX?

 

[HyperSomari64]

Hey look! We are now in the Scrimblo discussion.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Something something comparing Banjo to Croc's legacy.

Jokes aside, wow, what a time to be alive!

I keep seeing this around. What is this from?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I keep seeing this around. What is this from?

Twitter dustup from a few years ago when a user posted this:

Kind of a fallacious argument given that initial success (or lack thereof) hardly determines cultural legacy (one need only look at films that bombed at the box office that later went on to become more beloved than the films that beat them to see that). Also, a bit of a cart before the horse line of thinking that content creators determine cultural fandom/popularity when it's very often the other way around.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Twitter dustup from a few years ago when a user posted this:

Kind of a fallacious argument given that initial success (or lack thereof) hardly determines cultural legacy (one need only look at films that bombed at the box office that later went on to become more beloved than the films that beat them to see that). Also, a bit of a cart before the horse line of thinking that content creators determine cultural fandom/popularity when it's very often the other way around.

Poor Croc. Reduced to a shorthand for "character no one cares about".

Croc 2 was cute, never played 1. Definitely nothing groundbreaking, but I remember it being a fun little platformer. I'm pretty sure I never managed to finish it...

 

[Noipoi]

Twitter dustup from a few years ago when a user posted this:

Kind of a fallacious argument given that initial success (or lack thereof) hardly determines cultural legacy (one need only look at films that bombed at the box office that later went on to become more beloved than the films that beat them to see that). Also, a bit of a cart before the horse line of thinking that content creators determine cultural fandom/popularity when it's very often the other way around.

Oh no, Banjo Kazooie didn’t sell a bazillion units in 1998. That means it isn’t good, and people who grew up with it and remember it fondly shouldn’t talk about it anymore.

Jokes aside this is an interesting phenomenon I’ve witnessed, this pushback to mid-late 2000’s gaming YouTubers that made videos about their favorite childhood games. Like how dare people be nostalgic.

And obviously some weirdos take it too far and **** on anything new, but are they really the majority?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

There is a fair point that YouTubers have dominated discussions and changed opinions on games.

It's one of the reasons Sonic's reputation stagnated even when Sonic content became good. AVGN's video is one reason why Castlevania 2 became seen as a "bad game." Even though James Rolfe has stated he likes the game.

But, it's moreso that YouTubers can give opinions to people who have no experience rather than changing minds completely. Undoing people's love for Banjo Kazooie isn't possible. But stuff like the tweet can start to persuade people with no experience that Banjo wasn't actually a big deal.

 

[Ivander]

There is a fair point that YouTubers have dominated discussions and changed opinions on games.

It's one of the reasons Sonic's reputation stagnated even when Sonic content became good. AVGN's video is one reason why Castlevania 2 became seen as a "bad game." Even though James Rolfe has stated he likes the game.

But, it's moreso that YouTubers can give opinions to people who have no experience rather than changing minds completely. Undoing people's love for Banjo Kazooie isn't possible. But stuff like the tweet can start to persuade people with no experience that Banjo wasn't actually a big deal.

Basically, the Internet was a mistake.

The obvious aside, stuff like that and stuff being hyped up is part of the reason why I don't play most hyped up games on release and wait until hype has died down. I feel less muddled by popular opinion and my own opinions feel more of my own when I play a game after the launch hype waves have finished.

 

[ninjahmos]

you say that as if we have zero

I'll admit, I forgot about Ganondorf. But still…

 

[HyperSomari64]

A Scrimblo is a Scrimblo.

No matter their differences.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

My cousin once brought her Playstation over to my house along with a copy of Croc when I was really young.

It took me years to remember or learn what the game was called, but I had fond memories of playing it, so I'm really glad to see the franchise finally getting a remaster .Definitely picking this remaster up!