Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Pupp135]

Going back to a post that I made last night, I’d like to make a veteran based rate their chances thread so that we have a more dedicated thread regarding cuts. Before creating it, would I be allowed to make this thread at the moment even though SSB6 is not formally revealed?

 

[JCKirbs]

A soft reboot, perhaps.

But a hard reboot? I don’t think so. Reboot means reboot. Nothing would be sacred, not even any franchise that may have fallen by the wayside.

I think a lot of Smash fans throw the term ‘reboot’ around too often, when in most cases, it’s just a new game.

A true reboot would likely have nothing off-limits.

Yeah, I guess I'm not sure why I specifically used the term 'reboot' there. Regardless of what happens with the next game, I doubt it'll even be referred to as something like that. Just a new game, like you said.

That's not how reboots work. Entire franchises will be cut. A secondary character from titles as Mario, Zelda, DK, Kirby, Pokémon you name it is definitely more valuable than many of the 1 character IPs represented. This has always been the case when we check out support from before the characters where added. Melee and Brawl for example had huge emphasis on adding in the secondary characters of well beloved series.

Now that I think about it, they probably would sacrifice Duck Hunt before Luigi...

 

[Gorgonzales]

This is a really minor and inconsequential thing but I really wish Minecraft's series symbol was the Creeper face. It's iconic (as overused as the word is) and has a much more distinct and recognizable shape than... a block.

If Steve returns I hope they change it.

 

[Perkilator]

This is a really minor and inconsequential thing but I really wish Minecraft's series symbol was the Creeper face. It's iconic (as overused as the word is) and has a much more distinct and recognizable shape than... a block.

View attachment 393717View attachment 393716
If Steve returns I hope they change it.

In general, I kind of feel like Vol. 2 of the Fighters Pass dropped the ball with the new series symbols. For ARMS and Tekken, there are the most obvious symbols that would’ve been more visually distinct than just…a fist.

 

[ninjahmos]

Speaking of series symbols, I feel like if Kyo and/or Iori got into Smash, they'd probably use the big F in the King of Fighters logo.

 

[TheQuester]

I can see Crash still happening tbh.

Spyro never

I think Crash is always going to be there as a posibility, if the series continues i feel like at some point it will happen, i feel the same way with characters like Dante and a Tales of character.
Spyro feels like one of those characters they'll add as a Mii Costume, i think he's not that high on Nintendo's 3rdparty list.

If you had to cut four characters from the Original 12, who would they be?
To make things intertesting, you have to keep at least one of the Hidden 4.

My cuts would be Jigglypuff, Luigi, Ness, and Yoshi.

Honestly? None.
There's no much reason to cut them, they've been there in 5 games in a row, if there's cuts i feel they will be focused on Smash 4 veterans and Ultimate newcomers.
I think most 64, Melee and Brawl veterans will return, with the exception of characters like Young Link or Pichu.

 

[osby]

There's no much reason to cut them, they've been there in 5 games in a row, if there's cuts i feel they will be focused on Smash 4 veterans and Ultimate newcomers.
I think most 64, Melee and Brawl veterans will return, with the exception of characters like Young Link or Pichu.

Okay but why?

If your main metric for cutting characters is how old they are, you're only going to cater to older fans for the sake of it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Honestly? None.
There's no much reason to cut them, they've been there in 5 games in a row, if there's cuts i feel they will be focused on Smash 4 veterans and Ultimate newcomers.
I think most 64, Melee and Brawl veterans will return, with the exception of characters like Young Link or Pichu.

They were asking a hypothetical.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

In general, I kind of feel like Vol. 2 of the Fighters Pass dropped the ball with the new series symbols. For ARMS and Tekken, there are the most obvious symbols that would’ve been more visually distinct than just…a fist.
View attachment 393718View attachment 393719

For Tekken, I would expect a series called "Iron Fist" to be represented by a fist.
Especially when that particular fist icon that was used for Smash was used for the series before with irl tournaments of Tekken 7.

 

[Louie G.]

Okay but why?

If your main metric for cutting characters is how old they are, you're only going to cater to older fans for the sake of it.

Yeah, like I'm not advocating for any of the Original 12 to be removed myself but I'm increasingly becoming frustrated with the general sentiment of older = safer. Smash needs to move forward. The most underwhelming thing the series could do, and what a lot of people seem to believe would happen, is that we pretty much lose a bunch of Smash 4 and Ultimate newcomers and everyone who was added before that is a legacy pick... so what, does that just continue forever? Do we keep adding new characters just to do away with them the next time?

And I'm not talking about Ness and Captain Falcon, or anything. But a take like "Zero Suit Samus would get precedent over Ridley because-" is gonna make me tear my hair out. Every character is someone's favorite, but that includes the new blood. It infuriates me, quite frankly, when people treat Little Mac as expendable but will rightfully die on the hill that Ness or Pit should continue to be a mainstay. If we got Little Mac in Melee this would not be a question whatsoever. Is that fair?? Does the simple act of being here first outweigh every other thing that makes a character's addition valuable?

There are only a few characters who seem to unanimously break this cycle. Villager, Shulk and Inkling. Sometimes Ridley and Isabelle, maybe Robin or Greninja, but not always. Everyone else can go screw themselves apparently, because whenever we talk hypothetical """reboot""" rosters the first move is to go scorched earth on anything newer to Smash than 2008. Surefire way to guarantee the series becomes repetitive and stale.

 

[ninjahmos]

Yeah, like I'm not advocating for any of the Original 12 to be removed myself but I'm increasingly becoming frustrated with the general sentiment of older = safer. Smash needs to move forward. The most underwhelming thing the series could do, and what a lot of people seem to believe would happen, is that we pretty much lose a bunch of Smash 4 and Ultimate newcomers and everyone who was added before that is a legacy pick... so what, does that just continue forever? Do we keep adding new characters just to do away with them the next time?

And I'm not talking about Ness and Captain Falcon, or anything. But a take like "Zero Suit Samus would get precedent over Ridley because-" is gonna make me tear my hair out. Every character is someone's favorite, but that includes the new blood. It infuriates me, quite frankly, when people treat Little Mac as expendable but will rightfully die on the hill that Ness or Pit should continue to be a mainstay. If we got Little Mac in Melee this would not be a question whatsoever. Is that fair?? Does the simple act of being here first outweigh every other thing that makes a character's addition valuable?

There are only a few characters who seem to unanimously break this cycle. Villager, Shulk and Inkling. Sometimes Ridley and Isabelle, maybe Robin or Greninja, but not always. Everyone else can go screw themselves apparently, because whenever we talk hypothetical """reboot""" rosters the first move is to go scorched earth on anything newer to Smash than 2008. Surefire way to guarantee the series becomes repetitive and stale.

Yeah. I mean, I get that people expect at least one or two characters from Smash 4 and Ultimate to be cut, but really...what makes you think that just because a character has been in Smash longer means they're not gonna get cut? It's gonna be a new game and there's gonna be some cuts involved.

If we want them to make room for newcomers, we have to face the fact that they'll have to cut characters not only from Smash 4 and Ultimate, but also from Melee and Brawl, including Dr. Mario, Young Link and Pichu.

Seniority isn't everything, even in Smash.

 

[Louie G.]

Yeah. I mean, I get that people expect at least one or two characters from Smash 4 and Ultimate to be cut, but really...what makes you think that just because a character has been in Smash longer means they're not gonna get cut. It's gonna be a new game and there's gonna be some cuts involved.

I would go as far to say that most of the unique first party newcomers in Ultimate are completely safe. Many of these are longtime fan favorites who were finally added to the series, or are contemporary picks emblematic of Nintendo's new wave and current era. Incineroar and Piranha Plant are on shakier ground, unfortunately, but everyone beyond that just makes sense. I suppose it would be the third parties that we should be worried about if anything.

I don't think Sakurai is eager to clip these characters' wings before they can really get off the ground - well, except Ridley. Since he only has three jumps I can only surmise that they did clip his wings before joining Smash. But I suppose that's the sacrifice that had to be made...

 

[YeppersPeppers]

Hard to create new legacy if you just stick to the same old legacy over and over.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Honestly? None.
There's no much reason to cut them, they've been there in 5 games in a row, if there's cuts i feel they will be focused on Smash 4 veterans and Ultimate newcomers.
I think most 64, Melee and Brawl veterans will return, with the exception of characters like Young Link or Pichu.

I don’t have much reverence for the original 12 as more time goes on. Jigglypuff is really the only one I’m completely okay with cutting now. Maybe Ness sometime in the future.

In fact, it’s more likely seniority is starting to become more of a liability rather than a boost now.

I just see many Smash 4 and Ultimate first-party newcomers as more likely to stick around as people who grew up with the Wii, Wii U, and Switch era grow up.

 

[Perkilator]

Hard to create new legacy if you just stick to the same old legacy over and over.

This is also how I feel about the veterans' movesets. Especially in cases like Ganondorf, where legacy isn't an excuse to keep a moveset that just...fundamentally doesn't work for him.

 

[Gorgonzales]

If Smash was made today the "original 12" would look a LOT different (with Inkling, Isabelle, and some Fire Emblem schmuck being the obvious frontrunners). Fox and Captain Falcon were sensible choices for 1999, but in today's day and age I don't think Nintendo would vouch for them.

Things change over time. I don't think being part of Smash's current OG 12 is a guaranteed factor that proves these characters will be in every game. It'd certainly help characters (Fox and Falcon have made such a name for themselves for both their characters and platfighter-moveset-designs that it'd be a lot harder to justify cutting them), but not guaranteed immunity for them.

 

[ninjahmos]

This is also how I feel about the veterans' movesets. Especially in cases like Ganondorf, where legacy isn't an excuse to keep a moveset that just...fundamentally doesn't work for him.

Yeah, Falcondorf just doesn't cut it anymore.

Ganon definitely needs a revamped moveset. A fresh coat of paint. You could even have him use his sword more often.

 

[osby]

some Fire Emblem schmuck

Marth. The obvious first choice for Fire Emblem if Smash would release today is Marth.

 

[Pupp135]

Okay but why?

If your main metric for cutting characters is how old they are, you're only going to cater to older fans for the sake of it.

SSB seniority an interesting topic to discuss and its role in who ends up becoming a higher priority going into the next game. Here is my current position below, but I think this topic is honestly nuanced and complicated.

Seniority is not the primary determinant in who gets prioritized, and the best example of this is Jigglypuff, who barely scraped into Brawl and For despite being one of the originals. Also, there are newer characters who I‘d be shocked to see cut before long established veterans. The most obvious examples are Ridley, Villager, Isabelle, Shulk, Inkling, and Mii Fighters. Even though a character like Jigglypuff, Sheik, Zero Suit Samus, or R.O.B. has more seniority compared to the six above in the context of SSB, they’re absence would probably stick out less compared to those six. Losing staples can sting (think Waluigi missing out on Mario Kart 7), but we’ll be able to move forward.

Even though I don’t think seniority is necessarily a super important factor, there is one thing that I really want to highlight here: SSB is not just a character selection screen of the most popular/relevant characters in gaming. Even though some older characters have a smaller gaming legacy compared to newer fighters, they’re able to contribute in different ways, which could be through their popularity in the SSB community or their gameplay mechanics.

In summary, seniority isn’t the only factor that matters in character selection, but I do think we also overlook a character’s prominence within SSB when discussing character selection.

Marth. The obvious first choice for Fire Emblem if Smash would release today is Marth.

I honestly think it would be a Three Houses character given the game’s popularity, but I would understand arguments for Marth, Chrom, or Lucina.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If your main metric for cutting characters is how old they are, you're only going to cater to older fans for the sake of it.

Sounds good!

 

[Louie G.]

I don't think being part of Smash's current OG 12 is a guaranteed factor that proves these characters will be in every game.

My stance on this continues to be that the simple presence in Smash 64 does not guarantee this, but a surplus of content in-game makes it more difficult to detach longstanding but more dubious series like Mother or F-Zero. Retroactively removing Ness means that Mr. Saturn, Franklin Badge, several ATs, stages and music etc don't have a foundational anchor to ground their presence. So this is maybe a result of the characters being in the game for a longer span of time, but ultimately comes down to how they've been represented. A full reboot with 100% new content continues to be the only real justification.

Someone like ROB has been in three games now, but I can see him being cut because there is no forward mobility for Gyromite representation and he carries so little with him. And admittedly, this is probably why people see Little Mac as more expendable than someone like Pit as well. That's the fault of Smash itself, since I do believe Punch-Out has much more to offer than it's been given, but I digress.

And this is probably why Jigglypuff is the only OG12 character that people can agree may be expendable. Because outside of the legacy aspect, and even beyond the "irrelevant" part, it is the only one that doesn't offer anything beyond its presence. And I mean sure, I guess Mario can still be represented without Luigi but... why would you do that lol. Frankly it's kind of unspoken / unofficial but Luigi is practically representing Luigi's Mansion at this point, something that I think will become more clear as the series continues after LM3's incredible success.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It's a pity game development is so costly and similar games often compete for the same market, because a having two Smash games on the next console, one a very major reboot that does reimagine the original 12 and a more conventional sequel (ala 4 to Brawl) feels like it would solve a lot of problems. Have a SSB game that allows the series to evolve with another that can further refine and add to what Ultimate did and let the fans decide what works.

 

[Noipoi]

If Smash was made today the "original 12" would look a LOT different (with Inkling, Isabelle, and some Fire Emblem schmuck being the obvious frontrunners). Fox and Captain Falcon were sensible choices for 1999, but in today's day and age I don't think Nintendo would vouch for them.

Things change over time. I don't think being part of Smash's current OG 12 is a guaranteed factor that proves these characters will be in every game. It'd certainly help characters (Fox and Falcon have made such a name for themselves for both their characters and platfighter-moveset-designs that it'd be a lot harder to justify cutting them), but not guaranteed immunity for them.

If Smash was made today Captain Falcon and Star Fox would be assist trophies, and Falcon specifically would be considered a deep cut.

 

[Louie G.]

If Smash was made today the "original 12" would look a LOT different (with Inkling, Isabelle, and some Fire Emblem schmuck being the obvious frontrunners). Fox and Captain Falcon were sensible choices for 1999, but in today's day and age I don't think Nintendo would vouch for them.

Also sorry to quote you twice Gorgonzales, but the point about Fox here is interesting enough to spin another post off of. Mainly because I agree, but Star Fox has always been this weird outlier that manages to remain a somewhat synonymous Nintendo brand in spite of everything.

Is it "modern day Original 12" worthy? I dunno. But it seems like Fox manages to persist as one of Nintendo's big guns, even internally with presentations like this. I have to imagine part of this is Miyamoto's doing, Star Fox is one of his pet projects so as long as he's around the series will always be on the table, but I also wonder how much Smash Bros itself has influenced this lol.




As for a modern day Original 12, I think it would probably look something like this. I suspect gender balance would be more of a concern, so getting Peach in here would be a valuable asset. Perhaps Marth can be adjusted for another Fire Emblem character like Chrom / Lucina or someone from Three Houses, I think there are several viable ways you could handle that. Otherwise this feels kind of non-negotiable IMO.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Star Fox is in a more low-key version of Donkey Kong's status. The latter gets the merch, media appearances, crossovers, and even re-releases, but no new games. SF by contrast is by all accounts in deep hibernation in a lot of ways... but yeah Miyamoto's connection to it and its prominent status in the 4th through 6th gens gives it a promotional lifeline more than say a Kid Icarus does. Fox specifically strikes me as a character that if Smash were launched now would not necessarily be in the proverbial original 12, but at the absolute worst, would be DLC.

 

[Dinoman96]

That "Utilize Nintendo IP" image there is kinda funny because they've been using that particular group of renders in certain investor meeting slides since like 2015, tbh that would probably explain why Fox is there in his Zero design, and also Lottie who I believe started to get pushed a lot during that era.

Also Samus in her Other M armor lol

 

[Noipoi]

Honestly if they made Smash bros today I don't think there'd be an "Original 12", there's just too many characters I think they'd have to have.

Maybe it'd be more like an original 20-25.

 

[Louie G.]

Honestly if they made Smash bros today I don't think there'd be an "Original 12", there's just too many characters I think they'd have to have.

Maybe it'd be more like an original 20-25.

Well Pupp135 is running a pretty cool thread where we're trying to figure that out, if anyone feels curious about how a roster like that might get built up.

But yeah, I have to imagine a game like Smash wouldn't get greenlit today under the kind of restrictive conditions and budget that it was in the 90s. With crossovers being so popular nowadays, I think Nintendo would have the sense to realize how massive this could be.

 

[ninjahmos]

OK, here's a topic that doesn't involve cuts, since I'm sure we're all pretty tired of going back to that.

I may or may not have said this before, but I'm hoping the next Smash games delves deeper with alternate costumes, like...most fighting games.

 

[Noipoi]

OK, here's a topic that doesn't involve cuts, since I'm sure we're all pretty tired of going back to that.

I may or may not have said this before, but I'm hoping the next Smash games delves deeper with alternate costumes, like...most fighting games.

They're gonna start selling extra costumes as dlc.

Like this, but for everyone.

Aside from certain third party characters whose company refuses to allow major alterations to their design. The party poopers

 

[Ivander]

I may or may not have said this before, but I'm hoping the next Smash games delves deeper with alternate costumes, like...most fighting games.

Like I said before, we're either unlucky or very lucky that Smash doesn't have alternate costumes. Cause on the one hand, there's so much potential for alternate costumes for all the different characters in Smash Ultimate, both from other games and original outfits in general. And on the other hand, Nintendo would probably bankrupt most people if they went full throttle on DLC Alternate outfits for non-Mii characters.

They're gonna start selling extra costumes as dlc.

Like this, but for everyone.

Aside from certain third party characters whose company refuses to allow major alterations to their design. The party poopers

The 3rd Party companies would likely be very open to them if they had alternate costumes as DLC. Since obviously, they are being sold as DLC rather than being in the base game.

 

[Louie G.]

And on the other hand, Nintendo would probably bankrupt most people if they went full throttle on DLC Alternate outfits for non-Mii characters.

This is why I kind of feel like Mii Costumes cannibalize the likelihood of alternate costumes? I'd be open to both, since naturally I'm only gonna splurge on the ones that are relevant or appealing to me or the characters that I play, but I think Smash has kind of adopted this as their method of alternate costumes to maximize the amount of characters and series that can be represented. Over putting those resources toward the characters that are already here.

Our best bet IMO is just that they loosen up on this in the base game. Mario's alts have been a step in the right direction here, and new characters have been a bit more diverse in this regard too. All of Inkling's costumes, Meta Ridley, Kazuya's suit, Sora's outfits spanning across KH 1-3 (and that Timeless River alt, I love it)... it seems like something that Smash is getting even more comfortable with, but we'll see if that goes any further.

I mean, Wario and Little Mac have had this perk for a few games now. But they always felt like the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Opossum]

This is why I kind of feel like Mii Costumes cannibalize the likelihood of alternate costumes? I'd be open to both, since naturally I'm only gonna splurge on the ones that are relevant or appealing to me or the characters that I play, but I think Smash has kind of adopted this as their method of alternate costumes to maximize the amount of characters and series that can be represented. Over putting those resources toward the characters that are already here.

Our best bet IMO is just that they loosen up on this in the base game. Mario's alts have been a step in the right direction here, and new characters have been a bit more diverse in this regard too. All of Inkling's costumes, Meta Ridley, Kazuya's suit, Sora's outfits spanning across KH 1-3 (and that Timeless River alt, I love it)... it seems like something that Smash is getting even more comfortable with, but we'll see if that goes any further.

I mean, Wario and Little Mac have had this perk for a few games now. But they always felt like the exception rather than the rule.

It's funny because while I do think Mario's were a step in the right direction, it also was a case of one step forward and two steps back.

Bring back Fire Mario.

 

[Guynamednelson]

This is why I kind of feel like Mii Costumes cannibalize the likelihood of alternate costumes? I'd be open to both, since naturally I'm only gonna splurge on the ones that are relevant or appealing to me or the characters that I play, but I think Smash has kind of adopted this as their method of alternate costumes to maximize the amount of characters and series that can be represented. Over putting those resources toward the characters that are already here.

Our best bet IMO is just that they loosen up on this in the base game. Mario's alts have been a step in the right direction here, and new characters have been a bit more diverse in this regard too. All of Inkling's costumes, Meta Ridley, Kazuya's suit, Sora's outfits spanning across KH 1-3 (and that Timeless River alt, I love it)... it seems like something that Smash is getting even more comfortable with, but we'll see if that goes any further.

I mean, Wario and Little Mac have had this perk for a few games now. But they always felt like the exception rather than the rule.

I just wish they didn't restrict themselves to 8 per character, and tried something like traditional fighters where you choose the model and then what color you want, for example this would allow Mario to have his wedding alt not be at the cost of Fire Mario.

Just don't ask how it's supposed to be handled with Pokemon that have accessories instead of palette swaps.

It'd probably also be easier to have more than 8 costumes if they didn't have to make pre-renders for each and every one, and instead showed player models being rendered in real-time like most of these traditional fighters do when you're selecting a costume.

 

[Ivander]

It's funny because while I do think Mario's were a step in the right direction, it also was a case of one step forward and two steps back.

Bring back Fire Mario.

If they can't bring back Fire Mario, then give us a alternate color editor for us to bring him back.

A color editor plus alternate costumes that can also be edited would be terrifyingly effective and probably make most players never leave their game like any other character creator feature.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Mario's alts have been a step in the right direction here, and new characters have been a bit more diverse in this regard too. All of Inkling's costumes, Meta Ridley, Kazuya's suit, Sora's outfits spanning across KH 1-3 (and that Timeless River alt, I love it)... it seems like something that Smash is getting even more comfortable with, but we'll see if that goes any further.

I mean, Wario and Little Mac have had this perk for a few games now. But they always felt like the exception rather than the rule.

As long as we get more stuff like Builder and Wedding Mario and not stuff like Crafted Yoshi lol

I'd like to petition Nintendo/Sakurai and co to cut Crafted Yoshi and bring back Black Yoshi, or at least make an alt that looks even vaguely different than Yoshi growing mold on his body.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I want Wario's Sailor/GB Sprite palette back. It's a lot more appealing than the weird green & brown (or "poop Luigi", as I like to call it) alt that stuck around.

Wario's a prime candidate for more varied full-on alternate costumes, too.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I may or may not have said this before, but I'm hoping the next Smash games delves deeper with alternate costumes, like...most fighting games.

Meh. In my experience, having a bunch of alt costumes means you also have to have a mediocre 3D rendered art style.

That said, that's probably what they'll do. Because Smash doesn't really DO artistic art styles anyway.

 

[Perkilator]

This is why Smash should embrace the way modern fighting games do alternate costumes; give each character separate sets of costumes and give each costume about eight alternate colors.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It's amusing to imagine a mobile version of Smash ala Mario Kart Tour, it having alternate costumes as a microtransactions gimmick, and them eventually ending up in Ultimate like the Tour tracks did in the Booster Course Pass.