Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Perkilator]

When do you think Nintendo plans on unveiling the next system?

Well, we know they intend to reveal it by the end of the fiscal year, so maybe October like they did with the Switch eight years ago? God I'm ****in' old

 

[Noipoi]

When do you think Nintendo plans on unveiling the next system?

The common idea is they’ll do it in the fall, and set the thing for a spring release. Just like last time.

And that’s certainly possible, maybe they really liked the March release date and feel like doing it again. But I never like to think a company will do the exact same thing just because they did it last time, it’s a rather shortsighted method of predicting these things.

And remember that the circumstances at the end of the Wii U’s life were very different. They couldn’t wait to abandon ship. Nintendo’s in a much better spot so maybe they’ll go about revealing the next generation a little differently.

All we know is that we’ll definitely see the new console before the end of next March. I think we should keep an eye out for September/October, but don’t expect it to happen solely because that’s how it shook out with the first Switch.

 

[NintenRob]

If one of the unique Mario characters is getting cut, I firmly believe Bowser Jr is getting cut before Rosalina.

In Smash 4, Rosalina was consistently promoted more throughout the game, and was part of the project plan while Sakurai is on record that Jr barely made it.

 

[HyperSomari64]

And if we have to cut Megaman to make room for Zero then so be it.

Nah, Capcom's mascot deserves better.
Captain Commando: "Am i a joke to you?"

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

When do you think Nintendo plans on unveiling the next system?

I'm hopeful they'll show it in the likely Direct coming next month (September usually has a Direct in it), though it won't be a full showcase, moreso what it looks like, its official name, maybe a little bit of talk on specs though it could be the full thing since the Switch got its full proper reveal in October 2016.

If not, then it'd get its full showcase with new games and stuff shown next year, possibly in February assuming the release of it is sometime in the Spring like the Switch was, since February is also a typical Direct time.

This is of course assuming it would be attached to a Direct at all, and if it's not, well, you got me lol

 

[Louie G.]

If one of the unique Mario characters is getting cut, I firmly believe Bowser Jr is getting cut before Rosalina.

In Smash 4, Rosalina was consistently promoted more throughout the game, and was part of the project plan while Sakurai is on record that Jr barely made it.

I understand this point, but that was over a decade now and the character standings are pretty starkly different. Bowser Jr is constantly appearing throughout the series, and Rosalina seems to have outgrown her usefulness and is regulated to consistent spinoff appearances like previously ousted mainline character Wario. Although of course unlike Rosalina, Wario has two series that share his namesake and one of them got two games during the Switch's run.

This isn't to say I think Rosalina will definitely be cut, but I don't think the priorities of Smash 4 reflect the priorities of today. Bowser Jr is treated as a far more important asset of the Mario brand, is constantly receiving new appearances and material. Between last Smash and this next one, he is prominently a focus of Bowser's Fury and Mario Wonder. If he wasn't in the game yet I think people would be scratching their heads. It's a bit easier to imagine a world where Rosalina missed the boat, and her time had simply passed.

From a gameplay perspective however, Rosalina offers something more distinct. If it truly comes down to these two I see good arguments on both side, but how prominently she was promoted or how highly she was prioritized ten years ago isn't really relevant IMO when her "competitor" has had such consistent character momentum over all of that time. The only thing we can construe from this is the fact that if one of them had to be cut from Smash 4 it would have been Bowser Jr, who did factually barely make the cut and may not have if the Koopalings were not feasible to incorporate. But nowadays I have to imagine Bowser Jr would be a top priority character to incorporate into the series had he not gotten that chance already.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If one of the unique Mario characters is getting cut, I firmly believe Bowser Jr is getting cut before Rosalina.

In Smash 4, Rosalina was consistently promoted more throughout the game, and was part of the project plan while Sakurai is on record that Jr barely made it.

Wouldn't Bowser Jr. have been a part of the project plan as well? I mean, I know he said someone slammed him out real quick and that's the only reason he was able to be included, but I kind of find it hard to believe that he was developed entirely by a single person. There had to have been some work done on him already.

The only thing we can construe from this is the fact that if one of them had to be cut from Smash 4 it would have been Bowser Jr, who did factually barely make the cut and may not have been completed if the Koopalings were not feasible to incorporate.

The Koopalings are a fun nod, but I don't see why Bowser Jr. couldn't have had regular pallet swaps instead if they didn't work/were unfinished.

 

[Louie G.]

The Koopalings are a fun nod, but I don't see why Bowser Jr. couldn't have had regular pallet swaps instead if they didn't work/were unfinished.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I just remember this being one of the things that tipped him over the edge. I don't have the article on hand but maybe someone remembers which quote I'm referring to / botching.

 

[smashkirby]

I don't think being cut already is that big an indicator as to whether or not a character will be cut again, at least, not with our knowledge. A lot of these cuts have external reasons rather than just straight up being cut. For example, Mewtwo has been on the project plan for every game since Melee, they just have a tendency to finish him last which makes him vulnerable to time crunch cuts. There's also the Ice Climbers who were only cut because of the 3Ds.

Melee?? Mewtwo seems to have been planned to be a Smash Bros. fixture since the FIRST GAME.

Wouldn't Bowser Jr. have been a part of the project plan as well? I mean, I know he said someone slammed him out real quick and that's the only reason he was able to be included, but I kind of find it hard to believe that he was developed entirely by a single person. There had to have been some work done on him already.


The Koopalings are a fun nod, but I don't see why Bowser Jr. couldn't have had regular pallet swaps instead if they didn't work/were unfinished.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I just remember this being one of the things that tipped him over the edge. I don't have the article on hand but maybe someone remembers which quote I'm referring to / botching.

Didn't Sakurai say something about the team who specifically worked on Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings REALLY loved working on them and THAT'S why they put in the extra crunch to make them work?

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I just remember this being one of the things that tipped him over the edge. I don't have the article on hand but maybe someone remembers which quote I'm referring to / botching.

All I'm finding from my admittedly small search is Sakurai saying Bowser Jr. was close to getting axed, but his team said "We'll do our best!" and they got him done in time in a Nintendo Dream interview.

Also saw that he said characters with no new game coming up had an overwhelming disadvantage in terms of newcomers for Smash 4 I think, and that when he saw Greninja's concept art he had already done model stuff (I assume using his posing figures) for most of his moves in like a day, but not really anything else. May be a different interview that I'm not finding though.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Bowser Jr. was on the project plan too. The point was more that he barely made it in due to development issues.

Which doesn't apply now, of course. But he's still always going to be difficult to develop due to requiring unique alts and all. So yeah, among unique characters, he's not in the best spot possible. Being promoted more is not enough on its own. PP obviously is in a worse spot, due to being less wanted back in comparison.

Being unique can also be a detriment. Sometimes that makes them lower priority because they're that much harder to develop. It's not a coincidence many clones and semi-clones have returned or were planned to either. It's because, quite frankly, they're a smart idea to easily come back if possible. And sometimes it wasn't even a case of "last minute"(everyone in Brawl who made it in, as well as the Forbidden 7, were all intended to be done from the start. 4 had last minute clones, along with Melee and 64. Ultimate is the same as Brawl, albeit we don't know who was considered but didn't make it into the final project plan entirely).

(Just some, and even then, we don't know for sure how ARMS would've gone. DLC was another situation where Sakurai didn't choose the character, after all. Min Min would've been likely, but when he spoke of who he considered, it's more in context of DLC. Spring Man may have been the original choice at the time of base for all we know. Or would've been considered for obvious reasons. Rex(with Pyra and/or Mythra) is mildly known. I don't remember the exact details. And I remember TH having some consideration, though I don't remember if it was specifically Byleth or not).

That said, the team enjoying working on a character isn't exactly enough either. What also matters is what the Director thinks is a good use of development time. If a single character takes a lot, they may forego them for someone easier. If they're the sole representation of a franchise, that's obviously a good reason to spend the resources. If it's a secondary character, they clearly won't be at the top of food chain either. There's other factors too(as mentioned above, which are relevancy reasons). But yeah, it could go many ways~

 

[SPEN18]

The only thing we can construe from this is the fact that if one of them had to be cut from Smash 4 it would have been Bowser Jr, who did factually barely make the cut and may not have if the Koopalings were not feasible to incorporate

As far as I can remember there was not an official statement on the Koopalings part, only fan speculation. Unless there's something I'm missing. A quick search easily digs up the interview quote where it is said that Jr almost didn't make it, but there is no mention of the Koopalings there.

 

[Opossum]

I understand this point, but that was over a decade now and the character standings are pretty starkly different. Bowser Jr is constantly appearing throughout the series, and Rosalina seems to have outgrown her usefulness and is regulated to consistent spinoff appearances like previously ousted mainline character Wario. Although of course unlike Rosalina, Wario has two series that share his namesake and one of them got two games during the Switch's run.

This isn't to say I think Rosalina will definitely be cut, but I don't think the priorities of Smash 4 reflect the priorities of today. Bowser Jr is treated as a far more important asset of the Mario brand, is constantly receiving new appearances and material. Between last Smash and this next one, he is prominently a focus of Bowser's Fury and Mario Wonder. If he wasn't in the game yet I think people would be scratching their heads. It's a bit easier to imagine a world where Rosalina missed the boat, and her time had simply passed.

From a gameplay perspective however, Rosalina offers something more distinct. If it truly comes down to these two I see good arguments on both side, but how prominently she was promoted or how highly she was prioritized ten years ago isn't really relevant IMO when her "competitor" has had such consistent character momentum over all of that time. The only thing we can construe from this is the fact that if one of them had to be cut from Smash 4 it would have been Bowser Jr, who did factually barely make the cut and may not have if the Koopalings were not feasible to incorporate. But nowadays I have to imagine Bowser Jr would be a top priority character to incorporate into the series had he not gotten that chance already.

Honestly I'm still of the opinion that if it came down to it and it was a choice of one or the other, that Rosalina and Luma would be kept over Bowser Jr. She just seems to offer...a whole lot more.

• One of a kind puppeteer playstyle on the roster, while Bowser Jr.'s uniqueness is mostly aesthetic...playstyle wise nothing he has is THAT unique
• Much greater presence in the Smash series marketing
• Was previously a higher priority than Bowser Jr. was, as the latter was almost dropped from Smash 4
• Adds another female character to the roster to help make it more balanced, as opposed to Bowser Jr. adding 0.125 female characters
• Significantly less model work to be done; has her model and Luma's incredibly simple model, as opposed to Bowser Jr. who requires eight completely different models

In addition to those, I think a very important thing to bring up in regards to the two characters' recent prominence levels is that while, yes, Bowser Jr. has appeared more consistently as of late (and even then Rosalina still has quite a bit, like being a major character in Sparks of Hope)...it's generally with significantly less fanfare than Rosalina gets. It's anecdotal, sure, but Rosalina seems like the much bigger crowd pleaser of the two. Rosalina's Odyssey concept art where she played the guitar was borderline inescapable when it came to light, meanwhile on the complete opposite end, the most prominent reaction I've seen to Bowser Jr. is...people complaining about his overuse as a boss in Wonder.

Granted, and being completely honest, I think the Super Mario series is the one that I'm most confident when it comes to a specific line up in the next game. So take that for what you will. If the line up next time isn't Mario, Luigi, Peach, Rosalina and Luma, Bowser, Waluigi, and (time permitting) Daisy I'd be incredibly surprised, personally.

 

[PeridotGX]

well you've definitely got some that are more personal wants that actually likely so you're tight it's not realistic

Really the only characters I want on that roster are Bandana See and Papyrus. There are a few big swings but I don't see a problem with that.

 

[Noipoi]

Bandana See

Bandana Smell is better.

 

[cashregister9]

Bandana Smell is better.

Bandana Taste

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Honestly I think the only Mario character with a significant chance of being cut is Doc.

Both Rosalina and Bowser Jr. are major characters. I think both are largely safe barring a major roster shake up.

That said, I really hope they don't cut Jr. I love the little guy and it was great to see him included.

 

[Opossum]

Honestly I think the only Mario character with a significant chance of being cut is Doc.

Both Rosalina and Bowser Jr. are major characters. I think both are largely safe barring a major roster shake up.

That said, I really hope they don't cut Jr. I love the little guy and it was great to see him included.

I don't know if you're saying you think Piranha Plant is most likely returning or whether you forgot about it to be honest.

 

[Noipoi]

I don't know if you're saying you think Piranha Plant is most likely returning or whether you forgot about it to be honest.

Plant is eternal

 

[Guynamednelson]

Plant is eternal

Only if you give it the proper amount of water, sunlight and nutrients. Otherwise, it's as eternal as my pet goldfish.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Honestly I think the only Mario character with a significant chance of being cut is Doc.

Both Rosalina and Bowser Jr. are major characters. I think both are largely safe barring a major roster shake up.

That said, I really hope they don't cut Jr. I love the little guy and it was great to see him included.

I wouldn't even count Doc out, tbh, the only game he's missed since he was added to Melee was Brawl, and he technically has a better attendance record than Mewtwo because of his being in Smash 4 base game.

He's shockingly consistent, which is why I don't count him out like I do Pichu and Young Link lol

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don't know if you're saying you think Piranha Plant is most likely returning or whether you forgot about it to be honest.

...

I forgot the Plant existed.

He's gone too.

RIP him.

RIP me

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So I went ahead and took what BritishGuy54 said, and did a little thought experiment about who should stay. This does not take Echo Fighters into account.

Spoiler

First up, every active 1st party series with a character should retain at least one character. To my knowledge, these are Super Mario, Donkey Kong, The Legend of Zelda, Metroid, Kirby, Pokémon, F-Zero, Fire Emblem, Game & Watch (kind of), WarioWare, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, Xenoblade Chronicles, Splatoon, and potentially, ARMS. Assuming we pick the main rep for each, this gives us:

A few notes:

• Game & Watch is only technically active through the Super Mario Bros. and The Legend of Zelda collector's items. It could be argued these are more for Mario and Link, but it does use the Game & Watch brand, so I'll allow it.
• Though their casts rotate, Marth and Shulk definitely need to be here, as they are both the most well known characters from their franchises, and played a major role in their last game's stories.
• ARMS's future is tenuous, but it hasn't been long enough to declare it dead.

Step two is to add in the major veterans within these franchises:

Step 2.5 is dealing with the rotating casts:

• Fire Emblem I think is the easiest to handle since we can directly respond to the complaints by prioritizing the more unique characters while trying to keep the representation spread throughout the series, which gives us and. I'm also throwing in Schrodinger's since I think 4 full Fire Emblem characters is a good number, but if we're adding a newcomer be it Lyn or Alear, I think they should take priority. If we're not though, he should probably be here.
• Pokémon is a headache, as you can make a good argument for all of them to be here, but we can't keep 'em all. The representation has also been balanced horribly with 6 Gen 1 picks, and one from Gen 2, 4, 6, and 7. I'm giving up on the idea of this series truncating down to 6 slots including the newcomer in favor of just having 6 "slots" total. The editions here will be (), , , and either or . This gives us the series protagonist, and a major Pokémon from Gen 4, and either Gen 6 or 7.
• I think Xenoblade Chronicles is in a bit of a wonky position, as it hasn't quite instantiated it's big faces other than Shulk, but I'd say it's gained the right to fill out its roster, so keeping / is perfectly fine +- a newcomer. I'd hesitate to keep them if we're getting two characters though. If we're getting none, then they probably should stay.

That leaves us with Super Smash Bros. staples. The kind that, if gone, will be sorely missed by the vast majority of fans. Most of them get in on above criteria, so that just leaves us with a few difficult picks. The problem with picking off of this criteria is that there are a ton of characters who could fit this criteria, and when you try to avoid keeping literally everyone this way, you kind of just bias your way through it.

I can't really have my finger on the pulse of all smash fans everywhere, so this is about the best I can do.

In total, that's 44-45 characters, which would set the roster at 59-60 characters if you added 15 newcomers, which could easily mean that I'd need to downsize from here, probably by about 5-8 characters depending on what's feasible and the desired newcomer roster. Also I just realized that I completely forgot about 3rd party characters. In conclusion: I don't envy Sakurai.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I wouldn't even count Doc out, tbh, the only game he's missed since he was added to Melee was Brawl, and he technically has a better attendance record than Mewtwo because of his being in Smash 4 base game.

He's shockingly consistent, which is why I don't count him out like I do Pichu and Young Link lol

And was actually meant to be in Brawl. He's a bit of a lower priority when push comes to shove, but that's kind of it. He's not a very likely cut like some others. Coupled with being extremely easy to make, and he's in a fairly good spot for a consistent returner.

 

[NintenRob]

I understand this point, but that was over a decade now and the character standings are pretty starkly different. Bowser Jr is constantly appearing throughout the series, and Rosalina seems to have outgrown her usefulness and is regulated to consistent spinoff appearances like previously ousted mainline character Wario. Although of course unlike Rosalina, Wario has two series that share his namesake and one of them got two games during the Switch's run.

This isn't to say I think Rosalina will definitely be cut, but I don't think the priorities of Smash 4 reflect the priorities of today. Bowser Jr is treated as a far more important asset of the Mario brand, is constantly receiving new appearances and material. Between last Smash and this next one, he is prominently a focus of Bowser's Fury and Mario Wonder. If he wasn't in the game yet I think people would be scratching their heads. It's a bit easier to imagine a world where Rosalina missed the boat, and her time had simply passed.

From a gameplay perspective however, Rosalina offers something more distinct. If it truly comes down to these two I see good arguments on both side, but how prominently she was promoted or how highly she was prioritized ten years ago isn't really relevant IMO when her "competitor" has had such consistent character momentum over all of that time. The only thing we can construe from this is the fact that if one of them had to be cut from Smash 4 it would have been Bowser Jr, who did factually barely make the cut and may not have if the Koopalings were not feasible to incorporate. But nowadays I have to imagine Bowser Jr would be a top priority character to incorporate into the series had he not gotten that chance already.

While Bowser Jr does show up in more games, that does feel like a very black and white way of looking at things when things are a bit more nuanced than that.

First of all of I should say, Bowser Jr is an important character. But in many ways he's also an extension of Bowser. He's easy to include in things because Bowser is also always gonna be there. Like being in Mario Wonder when Rosalina is not is hardly a game changer.

Rosalina is more standalone as a character and doesn't really lend herself to just being plopped into mainline games like Daisy was in Wonder. She often requires an explanation. Despite that she's a favourite of the developers. That's why she was in 3D World to begin with. Why she gets that 8-bit cameo in Odyssey. Yeah Bowser Jr has had cool stuff with with Bowser's Fury and Bowser's inside Story remake, But he's an easy fit for those since those story put a lot of focus on Bowser.

That's not to downplay those stuff, but rather explain why Bowser Jr gets more than Rosalina. Because when they want to use Rosalina in a story, they often have to make it about Rosalina. Such as Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope where the whole game was about finding Rosalina and stopping Cursa. Or in 3D World where you had a whole level dedicated to Galaxy before unlocking her. They treat Rosalina like a special occasion. Heck even Mario Maker 2. She's implied to be a character in the story mode asking for help with levels that allude to Galaxy


So what the games where story doesn't matter. The spin-offs. How do Bowser Jr and Rosalina compare there. In Mario Kart, she's treated like one of the essentials. Her own Baby, her own title screen, her own course, loads of Tour alts. Perfect attendance. Bowser Jr meanwhile had to wait until 8 Deluxe to be in that game. Though in fairness he is in Mario Kart Live. Rosalina was in the base game to strikers while Jr had to wait for an update. Spinoffs on general now treat Rosalina as an essential staple. Bowser Jr while appearing most of the time, still doesn't have that privilege. (See 3DS Mario Parties as another example of Jr missing out while Rosalina is there)


The tldr of it all. While Jr shows up more often, especially in main line games, Rosalina is still often treated as a bigger deal throughout the franchise. But both will probably return anyway

 

[Borskaboska]

And was actually meant to be in Brawl. He's a bit of a lower priority when push comes to shove, but that's kind of it. He's not a very likely cut like some others. Coupled with being extremely easy to make, and he's in a fairly good spot for a consistent returner.

TBH id be a little upset if they cut doc before fixing his pants. In every smash game he wears denim pants under his lab coat, when in the dr mario games he wears white pants. I dont know why they changed his pants, its always bothered me, i just want him to show up ONCE with the right pants.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

TBH id be a little upset if they cut doc before fixing his pants. In every smash game he wears denim pants under his lab coat, when in the dr mario games he wears white pants. I dont know why they changed his pants, its always bothered me, i just want him to show up ONCE with the right pants.

No clue. Could be they like the color contrast better or something. There's no actual difference in the polygons that I can see at a glance, just a texture choice.

It's not necessarily the wrong pants either. He's described in trophies as "Mario grabbing a Medical Coat", so the description directly fits with his design. Which isn't really meaningful, just that it doesn't get treated that weirdly either way.

 

[robot067]

Brawl minus just came out with a new trailer. The new stages are awesome. Really makes me wish we could get Sunset Shore in an official smash game. Smash's Donkey Kong stages in general are so sad, really the worst victim of Sakurai's insistence on using beginning stages only :'(. This also makes me want to see the areas from subspace return somehow. Areas like the Ruined Zoo are absolutely iconic enough to show up as stages on their own in a future smash game.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

TBH id be a little upset if they cut doc before fixing his pants. In every smash game he wears denim pants under his lab coat, when in the dr mario games he wears white pants. I dont know why they changed his pants, its always bothered me, i just want him to show up ONCE with the right pants.

Could be they like the color contrast better or something.

That's probably it. They want his legs to be easily viewable, especially since the coat covers them up somewhat. That does beg the question as to why the black alt doesn't give him khakis or something, but it at least sounds like a reasonable...reason.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Bandana Taste

Bandana Touch

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That's probably it. They want his legs to be easily viewable, especially since the coat covers them up somewhat. That does beg the question as to why the black alt doesn't give him khakis or something, but it at least sounds like a reasonable...reason.

All his pants are a lighter or darker black, so maybe it's just "make this done fast" too.

That, and Ultimate is the first game he wasn't last minute added to the roster's plans, but even then, it was likely lower priority when there's a ton of balancing to do. And that still wasn't able to be hard finished, as the game still had quite a few bugs.

 

[ninjahmos]

Bandana Touch

View attachment 393258

Bandana Do

 

[Diddy Kong]

While Bowser Jr does show up in more games, that does feel like a very black and white way of looking at things when things are a bit more nuanced than that.

First of all of I should say, Bowser Jr is an important character. But in many ways he's also an extension of Bowser. He's easy to include in things because Bowser is also always gonna be there. Like being in Mario Wonder when Rosalina is not is hardly a game changer.

Rosalina is more standalone as a character and doesn't really lend herself to just being plopped into mainline games like Daisy was in Wonder. She often requires an explanation. Despite that she's a favourite of the developers. That's why she was in 3D World to begin with. Why she gets that 8-bit cameo in Odyssey. Yeah Bowser Jr has had cool stuff with with Bowser's Fury and Bowser's inside Story remake, But he's an easy fit for those since those story put a lot of focus on Bowser.

That's not to downplay those stuff, but rather explain why Bowser Jr gets more than Rosalina. Because when they want to use Rosalina in a story, they often have to make it about Rosalina. Such as Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope where the whole game was about finding Rosalina and stopping Cursa. Or in 3D World where you had a whole level dedicated to Galaxy before unlocking her. They treat Rosalina like a special occasion. Heck even Mario Maker 2. She's implied to be a character in the story mode asking for help with levels that allude to Galaxy


So what the games where story doesn't matter. The spin-offs. How do Bowser Jr and Rosalina compare there. In Mario Kart, she's treated like one of the essentials. Her own Baby, her own title screen, her own course, loads of Tour alts. Perfect attendance. Bowser Jr meanwhile had to wait until 8 Deluxe to be in that game. Though in fairness he is in Mario Kart Live. Rosalina was in the base game to strikers while Jr had to wait for an update. Spinoffs on general now treat Rosalina as an essential staple. Bowser Jr while appearing most of the time, still doesn't have that privilege. (See 3DS Mario Parties as another example of Jr missing out while Rosalina is there)


The tldr of it all. While Jr shows up more often, especially in main line games, Rosalina is still often treated as a bigger deal throughout the franchise. But both will probably return anyway

I think you got it right here with all that summed up. Rosalina is a bigger deal, but Bowser Jr. is a consistent face in the series. He already was before his inclusion.

The real cut we should look at in the Mario franchise is of course Piranha Plant. Weird choice still, and easily the weakest link. Even compared to Daisy and Dr.Mario. I don't think Daisy is gonna go, even if she remains an Echo. I think the same about Lucina and Chrom due to popularity and possibly Dark Pit due to favoritism.

 

[NintenRob]

I think you got it right here with all that summed up. Rosalina is a bigger deal, but Bowser Jr. is a consistent face in the series. He already was before his inclusion.

The real cut we should look at in the Mario franchise is of course Piranha Plant. Weird choice still, and easily the weakest link. Even compared to Daisy and Dr.Mario. I don't think Daisy is gonna go, even if she remains an Echo. I think the same about Lucina and Chrom due to popularity and possibly Dark Pit due to favoritism.

I.... Actually completely forgot when I said "unique Mario character" also applies to Piranha Plant. And yeah, Rosalina and Bowser Jr are naturally gonna have priority over the plant, even if I do like the addition. And I don't think Daisy is going anywhere either.

 

[robot067]

I love Piranha Plant and would be sad to see him go. But I guess he is probably one of the first on the chopping block since he was a pre-order bonus, and is probably just gonna be phased out for Sakurai's next WTF pick. Oh well, I'll hold out hope he can return and be S tier next time .

 

[Diddy Kong]

I.... Actually completely forgot when I said "unique Mario character" also applies to Piranha Plant. And yeah, Rosalina and Bowser Jr are naturally gonna have priority over the plant, even if I do like the addition. And I don't think Daisy is going anywhere either.

The fact this very thing seems to happen frequently just says it all. Piranha Plant was a forgettable inclusion. Outside of maybe the Miis, I don't think there's a more overlooked character on the roster.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Yeah it says a lot that so many people forgot Piranha Plant.

I think the other WTF picks like Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., Wii Fit Trainer and Duck Hunt really are carried by the fact that they have entire franchises behind them. Plus they're just more interesting in design and moveset imo.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Plant is the only Mario character I consistently keep cutting when I try to make my own rosters. Key word being try

I love Plant, but compared to the other Mario characters they just feel like an obvious candidate for being low priority, and thinking of them as DLC later feels really weird (though obviously not impossible).

On the flipside though, seeing them on a future Dojo update if we go back to those would be hilarious, just for the complete disarray it would probably throw everyone into, since it feels like most people, myself included, feel like Plant is proooobably getting axed.

 

[Arcanir]

Piranha Plant's unfortunate. It's a very cool concept for a character as no one expected it and the novelty of having a mook as a playable fighter was really neat. However, the problem is it hasn't really gotten past that novelty and as soon as people got used to it, it faded into the background. Its moveset's fun, but it didn't take off in either casual or competitive circles, while a recurring mook in its franchise, it's sharing with multiple other Mario characters who easily outshine it (much less the roster as a whole), and on that same note it was not too long after that we got Joker revealed as a fighter which stole its thunder as people started to move on to talking about him and what characters we could expect next.

It became a face among many. There are 82 characters in this roster and it has trouble keeping itself in the spotlight since it's not a fan favorite and/or prominent face and it hasn't had enough to really keep itself in the discussion on its own once we got past the surprise factor. It's sadly not surprising that it constantly slips people's minds as it didn't stick the landing as effectively as its peers.

 

[Louie G.]

The tldr of it all. While Jr shows up more often, especially in main line games, Rosalina is still often treated as a bigger deal throughout the franchise. But both will probably return anyway

Some pretty solid points here that at least help make the point that Rosalina is someone worth keeping around. But I feel like it continues to undermine Bowser Jr's role in the contemporary brand. Like yes, he is an extension of Bowser. But is Luigi not mostly an extension of Mario in the mainline games? That doesn't make him less significant, nobody would genuinely argue this. All that really says about Bowser Jr is that he is a secondary character compared to the likes of your main Mario crew. Which fair enough, I don't think he's on that level.

The point that Rosalina demands more centralized attention when they opt to give her a significant role is true, but the last game that has done this came out a decade ago. Frankly I don't think Sparks of Hope is very relevant in this context, since it is not a Nintendo game (Bowser Jr played a major role in the first one anyway) and a simple allusion in Mario Maker 2 doesn't really feel significant either. Like, whether or not his role in Mario Wonder moves you, he is still there. And yeah, Bowser's Fury being about Bowser makes it easier to include him... every Mario game is about Bowser, so he will keep appearing. These just feel like weird points to try and quantify because they should not disqualify his consistency as a character. He plays a prominent role in both of the mainline releases since Ultimate. That's a massive point in his favor. Spinoffs fair enough, but it's never very clear how much that matters to or influences these decisions in Smash. And I suppose it's worth mentioning that Bowser Jr's track record in the RPGs is far more consistent.

Another recent victory for Bowser Jr is a role in the Nintendo World amusement park. He has a bit of a hidden easter egg minigame in Bowser Castle, but is deemed significant enough to have this flashy piece of promo art. Maybe not the greatest thing in his favor, but I tend to believe the theme park is a good indication of what Nintendo deems to be a relevant / significant part of the Nintendo brand. He also appears in that Nintendo Store Tokyo character parade graphic alongside his papa. He has LEGOs. He is regularly demonstrated to be a branding staple, which I suppose is why some are tired of the little guy.

Obviously yes, there's more that goes into these decisions than simple relevancy and marketability. But can you think of any other character in Smash with this level of brand recognition, this level of consistency over the course of the last decade who we would contemplate getting cut for even a second? I don't necessarily think Bowser Jr and Rosalina need to be at each other's throats here - but the main thing saving her if push comes to shove, IMO, is how unique she is. Junior is not the most fresh character, even though he could be. But he trumps her in just about every other relevant category and has only gotten more omnipresent since his debut in Smash 10 years ago. I think we're being a little bit unfair to him here.