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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Gorgonzales

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From @/officialDannyT

What's your favorite video game of all time? Mine... @/AnimalCrossing: New Horizons! #NationalVideoGameDay
View attachment 392101

F. Okaaay if it's HIS favorite game I at least gotta try it before deciding if I truly truly don't like it.

I did not know about national favorite game day but I think every weekday of the year is a national celebration somewhere these days and that's cool. My favorite game of all time .... ... .. . Resident Evil for the Sony PlayStation.
My favorite game? Pikmin. The first one.

It feels like an experience specifically tailored to me. The unique and unorthodox character designs, the addicting gameplay loop of trying to get everything done as efficiently as possible (peak dandori, as some would say), the way the game has diegetic tutorials / insight from Olimar via his observations and end-of-day logs, the mysterious and ever-changing music tracks that sound unlike anything else, the very idea of controlling an army of soldiers that follow you everywhere... it's incredible. It's also the most hands-off game in the Pikmin series, just letting you play the game instead of nagging you to pluck sprouts or rewind like in 4 or interrupting you constantly like in 2. It's short, but tightly-designed, and I'm willing to overlook its jank for just how unabashedly confident this game was. It knows exactly what it wants to be and executes it in a way I respect tremendously.

 

Garteam

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Fortnite's visual identity is not very strong.
I disagree with this. Fortnite's artsyle is a bit generic, but it is still very recognizable and the game has a lot of well-known iconography attached to it. People see characters like Peely and know they're from Fortnite. This is further evidenced by how you can normally tell when a character is rendered in Fortnite due to elements like the saturated colours, rounded heads, lack of detail on clothing and skin, and emphasis on reflective textures (Leon, Spider-Man, and Kratos demonstrate this well, among others).
 

cashregister9

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As a resident Fortnite Enjoyer™️, I think Fortnite has so much cool **** that could be added to smash anything from a mii costume and items up to a character, there are so many directions you can go and it wouldn't really feel out of place and would be unique.

From @/officialDannyT

What's your favorite video game of all time? Mine... @/AnimalCrossing: New Horizons! #NationalVideoGameDay
View attachment 392101

F. Okaaay if it's HIS favorite game I at least gotta try it before deciding if I truly truly don't like it.

I did not know about national favorite game day but I think every weekday of the year is a national celebration somewhere these days and that's cool. My favorite game of all time .... ... .. . Resident Evil for the Sony PlayStation.
My favorite game is probably Half-life 2, I love the whole Half-life series but 2 particularly stands out in my mind for it's aesthetics, storytelling and overall vibe, Episode 2 is probably the best Half-life 2, but it is way too short, Regular 2 I feel has a perfect length and mix of everything

Undertale, Planet Coaster and Kingdom Hearts 2 are other solid contenders for my favorite as well.
 
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Gengar84

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are we just listing out favourite games now? The Legend of Zelda series for me
Any particular game in the series is your favorite? The only Zelda game I’ve ever beaten is Tears of the Kingdom but I played OoT and TP too. I got to the Forest Temple in OoT and the boss of the Wind Temple in TP but never finished either game.

My favorite artstyle for the series is OoT. I just love Link and Ganondorf’s designs in that game. TP had my favorite Zelda though.
 
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fogbadge

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Any particular game in the series is your favorite? The only Zelda game I’ve ever beaten is Tears of the Kingdom but I played OoT and TP too. I got to the Forest Temple in OoT and the boss of the Wind Temple in TP but never finished either game.

My favorite artstyle for the series is OoT. I just love Link and Ganondorf’s designs in that game. TP had my favorite Zelda though.
I kinda stopped picking favourites so I just say all of them
 

Louie G.

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I disagree with this. Fortnite's artsyle is a bit generic, but it is still very recognizable and the game has a lot of well-known iconography attached to it. People see characters like Peely and know they're from Fortnite. This is further evidenced by how you can normally tell when a character is rendered in Fortnite due to elements like the saturated colours, rounded heads, lack of detail on clothing and skin, and emphasis on reflective textures (Leon, Spider-Man, and Kratos demonstrate this well, among others).
It's matter of taste I suppose, since I do think it's a good deal less striking than most of the other series we have in Smash, but you're not wrong in your assessment here. I did point in favor of the likes of Fishstick or Peely because those are very dynamic designs within that mold. In fairness it's hard to pin down Fortnite since it's always introducing weird new characters or settings / events, with how long they've been going by now it's safe to say they could work out enough interesting material to make it stand out.

Thinking about it, "it looks like Fortnite" is a common assessment (criticism?) from people that I see applied elsewhere. If it didn't have a distinct look, that observation probably wouldn't make much sense. But it's usually well understood. Especially within its genre, at least when it first dropped.
 
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Noipoi

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I’ve got a few favorites.

Pokemon B/W for introducing me to my favorite series of all time.

Mario Odyssey and 3D World for being what I consider the pinnacle of both sandbox and goal based Mario.

Diddy’s Kong Quest for being perhaps the best 2D platformer I’ve ever played.

And Undertale, which gets memed on a lot, but back when it released there was nothing like it. It’s a truly special game to me.
 

Gengar84

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Are there any games where the character design or general aesthetic really appeals to you but you haven’t really played much or any of the game for mechanical or other reasons? There’s a few that fit this for me. The most obvious one for me is League of Legends. I really like a lot of their characters and, if Arcane is anything to go by, the story is great too. I just don’t really play competitive online games so I never actually tried it. I also love the art direction of WarCraft and Legacy of Kain but I’ve never played WoW and could never get very far in Soul Reaver. I did play a lot of custom Hero Arenas in WarCraft 3 though. Those were a lot of fun even if I wasn’t very good lol.
 
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DKing

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A lot of people would be pissed,
Indeed

The Bomberman series are one of my favorite games. And one of the first video game I ever played.
Minecraft, the freedom of the game in creative mode and the survival mode was quite challenging to put it in my second favorite game.
And in third position smash bros, that help me discover a lot of video games. Thanks Sakurai.
 

BritishGuy54

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That’s probably a good thing. I think it’s great that we have such varied opinions and most of us here are pretty open. I tend to lean towards third party and legacy characters at this point since a lot of my favorite first party characters that actually have a chance are already in. Nintendo is my favorite gaming company but there’s a ton of third party characters I’d still love to see.
I think the varied opinions are good too. It gives a lens into what the people may want out of a new game, even if there are differences.

Personally, I just lean more towards first party and recent characters, as I think that will be a large part on how a new Smash would differentiate itself from Ultimate.

If there’s anything I’ve learned about thinking up a newcomer (let alone a veteran) selection, it’s that you can’t please everyone, and that’s why varied opinions matter so much.
 

Scrimblo Bimblo

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Are there any games where the character design or general aesthetic really appeals to you but you haven’t really played much or any of the game for mechanical or other reasons? There’s a few that fit this for me. The most obvious one for me is League of Legends. I really like a lot of their characters and, if Arcane is anything to go by, the story is great too. I just don’t really play competitive online games so I never actually tried it. I also love the art direction of WarCraft and Legacy of Kain but I’ve never played WoW and could never get very far in Soul Reaver. I did play a lot of custom Hero Arenas in WarCraft 3 though. Those were a lot of fun even if I wasn’t very good lol.
Probably BioShock for me. Setting, graphics, story are the coolest things ever for me.
But actually playing it... Eeeh. Maybe it's because I was coming out of Doom 2016 but I found it kinda simplistic and not all that engaging.
After I finish Red Dead and TTYD I might give it another try...
 

Hadokeyblade

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Are there any games where the character design or general aesthetic really appeals to you but you haven’t really played much or any of the game for mechanical or other reasons? There’s a few that fit this for me. The most obvious one for me is League of Legends. I really like a lot of their characters and, if Arcane is anything to go by, the story is great too. I just don’t really play competitive online games so I never actually tried it. I also love the art direction of WarCraft and Legacy of Kain but I’ve never played WoW and could never get very far in Soul Reaver. I did play a lot of custom Hero Arenas in WarCraft 3 though. Those were a lot of fun even if I wasn’t very good lol.
Xenoblade.

I like everything about these games except the combat and as a result i dont actually play 'em.
 

Gengar84

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Xenoblade.

I like everything about these games except the combat and as a result i dont actually play 'em.
Yeah, the combat does take some getting used to. I didn’t really understand what I was doing in battle in XBC2 until the very end of the game. I feel they make the battle system a little too complicated for its own good sometimes. The exploration and music are phenomenal though so I still really enjoy playing them.
 

Gengar84

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LoL, just not into the MOBA types.
Same. My friend is a massive LoL fan and plays it all the time so it can’t be all bad I suppose. He tried to talk me into playing with him online but I haven’t really had the best experience playing with random people online. The RPG, Ruined King is a lot of fun though and has a great combat system and I enjoyed what little I’ve played of the digital card game, Runeterra so I have some experience at least.
 

BritishGuy54

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I’m curious how much Smashboards really reflects the general opinions of the Smash fanbase at large. Are there some characters that are heavily speculated here that may not translate to the wider gaming audience? Conversely, I wonder how many characters would really appeal to more casual Smash fans that we overlook here?
Going back to this, I do think a difference between here and the causal fanbase is that I think the casual (mainly western) fanbase is more likely to be more harsh on more Japanese-leaning series.

Basically, if I had a nickel for every Smash mock roster that reduced Fire Emblem to only Marth, I’d have a very large amount of nickels and it scares me.

A lot of casual fans are more likely to base their rosters off from feelings rather than logic, if that’s the right term to use.

I think the some parts of the fandom are also much more harsh and less open on clones, or characters that feel mildly similar to some people (namely swordfighters).
 

Noipoi

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A lot of casual fans are more likely to base their rosters off from feelings rather than logic, if that’s the right term to use.
Unlike us. We’re all about facts and logic over here.

The people who spend their precious time on this earth arguing about a hypothetical fighting game that doesn’t even exist yet? We’re the real scholars :nifty:
 
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LiveStudioAudience

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As far as casual fans, I'd say the biggest difference between them is that Smashboards has somewhat more experience with the typical arguments and debates about characters because they've all pretty much happened here. That has its own upsides and downsides, but it does tend to occasional engender new types of discussion if just because the users here are tired of the usual back and forth.

I don't know if Smashboards is necessarily more balanced with eastern vs western fighters preference, though I believe there's more typical acknowledgement and respect given towards the former because those that can illustrate their merits have a history and actual credibility on the forum. Just to name one, a knowledgeable Sega fan like Speed Weed Speed Weed is someone who can effectively explain in a lot of places online why various Japan appeal characters from that company are so beloved and could have value in SSB. However, because the legacy of the forum and because message boards better lend themselves to certain discussions than others, there's better communicative clarity and context with Smashboards for that vs more modern social media.
 
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Speed Weed

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I’m curious how much Smashboards really reflects the general opinions of the Smash fanbase at large. Are there some characters that are heavily speculated here that may not translate to the wider gaming audience? Conversely, I wonder how many characters would really appeal to more casual Smash fans that we overlook here?
I think there are more or less three groups to consider here - there's the casual casual folk, AKA the guys who really don't pay that much attention to online fandom and likely lean more towards the really megaton third-parties and some of the evergreen Nintendo series, you have all of us nerds on Smashboards, then I think there's a sort of third, inbetween group that we can maybe call......"casual speculators"? Basically people who do actively partake in the fandom and speculation, but who make their home on bigger platforms like YouTube or Twitter and who I think are likely to pay much more attention to the general trends in speculation and definitely know the big "fan" picks, your Isaacs and Genoes and whatnot, as well as plenty of the oft-speculated third-parties, including ones that may go deeper than what the really casual folk would know - picks that are somewhere in the middle of the casual-hardcore spectrum - but even so, and this I think is the difference, they're likely to miss a lot of the really fringe stuff that's speculated about on here sometimes. Like, they may bring up, say, an Arle (to grab one example of someone I think is in that "mid-tier" of fandom popularity), but they definitely won't talk about like, Falcom characters. It's a relatively small difference, but I think it's one that's worth noting, where speculation on these larger platforms does pay larger attention to the goings-on of the fandom, but still at a slightly more detached level compared to the people over here who are really in the weeds of it all. I think this also shows in how much speculation is informed by the supplementary info and evidence we have - the larger fandom has several famous bits of info from Sakurai that's used for guidance, but I think it's to a lesser extent compared to here where citing old-ass interviews and columns is pretty much the order of the day. All this is, again, a small distinction that could honestly be considered negligible - and no skin off my back if it is - but I think it's interesting
 

Gengar84

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I'm starting to think the Echo Fighter label inadvertently did more harm than good to speculation.
I don’t have an issue with the label. It’s just kind of confusing where you draw the line between an echo and a clone. If echoes were basically just glorified alts that would make sense but that doesn’t really describe Ken. I agree with DarthEnderX that they should probably expand the label to include all the variant characters.
 
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RileyXY1

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I don’t have an issue with the label. It’s just kind of confusing where you draw the line between an echo and a clone. If echoes were basically just glorified alts that would make sense but that doesn’t really describe Ken. I agree with DarthEnderX that they should probably expand the label to include all the variant characters.
I'm on the "glorified alts" side. I don't count Lucina, Ken, and Chrom as Echoes due to their significant differences from their base fighter. In my opinion only Daisy, Dark Pit, Dark Samus, and Richter should be considered Echoes. These four characters are unlike other clones in that their differences are either absent entirely, limited to aesthetics, or are incredibly situational. These four are so similar to their base fighters that they don't even get their own spots on the official tier list, and are instead lumped together with their base fighters.
 

DarthEnderX

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Are there any games where the character design or general aesthetic really appeals to you but you haven’t really played much or any of the game for mechanical or other reasons?
I think the last couple Guilty Gear games are the best looking video games. No qualifiers. Full stop. To the point where, when Xrd first came out, I thought "Oh. 2D graphics have now been solved."

But I don't actually play them.
 
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Gengar84

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I think the last couple Guilty Gear games are the best looking video games. No qualifiers. Full stop. To the point where I thought "Oh. 2D graphics have now been solved."

But I don't actually play them.
Same. I’ve been really tempted a few times but knowing me, I know I’d play them for about 5 hours before I get tired and move onto something else. I’m not really good enough to compete online so fighting games need some kind of substantial single player to hold my interest. The graphics and animations are amazing though.
 

DarthEnderX

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Same. I’ve been really tempted a few times but knowing me, I know I’d play them for about 5 hours before I get tired and move onto something else. I’m not really good enough to compete online so fighting games need some kind of substantial single player to hold my interest. The graphics and animations are amazing though.
As fighting games go, their mechanics are too fiddly for me.

By contrast, I think Street Fighter 4 is my favorite playing fighting game. But it looks like dog****.

When GGXrd came out I was like "Oh man, I hope SF5 looks like this!"

Then SF5 came out and looked like an upresed SF4 I thought "Well, they were already making SF5 when Xrd came out. Too late to change course. Maybe for SF6."

Then SF6 came out and looked like that ugly Unreal fan render of Guile...
 
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Gengar84

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As fighting games go, their mechanics are too fiddly for me.

By contrast, I think Street Fighter 4 is my favorite playing fighting game. But it looks like dog****.

When GGXrd came out I was like "Oh man, I hope SF5 looks like this!"

Then SF5 came out and looked like an upresed SF4 I thought "Well, they were already making SF5 when Xrd came out. Too late to change course. Maybe for SF6."

Then SF6 came out and looked like that ugly Unreal fan render of Guile...
I don’t really care for Street Fighter 6’s more realistic graphical style but I do like Cammy’s and Juri Han’s new outfits. I think they’re probably my favorite designs each of them have had. Most characters are a downgrade from their classic designs for me though.
 
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Wonder Smash

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Are there any games where the character design or general aesthetic really appeals to you but you haven’t really played much or any of the game for mechanical or other reasons? There’s a few that fit this for me. The most obvious one for me is League of Legends. I really like a lot of their characters and, if Arcane is anything to go by, the story is great too. I just don’t really play competitive online games so I never actually tried it. I also love the art direction of WarCraft and Legacy of Kain but I’ve never played WoW and could never get very far in Soul Reaver. I did play a lot of custom Hero Arenas in WarCraft 3 though. Those were a lot of fun even if I wasn’t very good lol.
Dragon Quest.

Being a Dragon Ball fan, I couldn't help but notice the all-so familiar Toriyama art style. The characters themselves also look really cool and memorable (I always like the first Hero's design the most). But as I'm not a fan of RPGs, I'm not really into playing any of the games. Therefore, it just simply became a series I somewhat kept up with for years but never actually played.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Yeah in practice, Echo Fighters weren't very clearly communicated. Dark Samus and Daisy are pretty much alternate costumes that are allowed to have animations that would change their hitboxes. Richter has a move property change, but it's not very impactful. Chrom however, has several move property tweaks, and an entirely new special move. Dr. Mario took about the same work load, so why isn't he an Echo Fighter? Well maybe it's a legacy thing, but then why are Dark Pit and Lucina Echo Fighters?

And then there's Ken who's a full on semi-clone. Many claim that he's an outlier for PR reasons and shouldn't be counted, but whether you do that or not it still begs the question as to how many changes an Echo Fighter can get. Does Dr. Mario somehow take more resources than the others did? Are Pyra and Mythra Echo Fighters of each other or do their special moves make them more resource intensive than the other clones? If the label sticks around (and I believe it will), I hope there's more clarification on it.

I don’t really care for Street Fighter 6’s more realistic graphical style but I do like Cammy’s and Juri Han’s new outfits. I think they’re probably my favorite designs each of them have had. Most characters are a downgrade from their classic designs for me though.
Personally, I think most of them are better. Luke isn't wearing a basic MMA outfit with dumb hair and a giant tattoo that screams "Murica" on his chest, Cammy actually gets to wear clothes, Dee Jay isn't stuck with Brazil colored sweat pants, Blanka actually gets to wear clothes, Akuma lost his flower hair, E. Honda actually gets to wear clothes...I'm starting to sense a pattern here.

There are a few that seem like a downgrade. Ken looks like a homeless person...and actually maybe he is one, but it's a pretty drab outfit, and looks super rough compared to his Street Fighter 5 outfit. Bison's is also kinda odd because he's got a cloak, but it looks more like he threw a raggedy blanket on his head, and then his bottom half is just his original design...

Most of the rest of them are side grades though. At least in my opinion.
 

Hadokeyblade

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I don’t really care for Street Fighter 6’s more realistic graphical style but I do like Cammy’s and Juri Han’s new outfits. I think they’re probably my favorite designs each of them have had. Most characters are a downgrade from their classic designs for me though.
I love Chun Li's SF6 design.

I just think the outfit looks nice.

I hope Terry gets his Mark of the wolves outfit as a costume 2 once he drops for SF6.
The alt that should have been in smash but wasnt.
 
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Louie G.

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I hope Terry gets his Mark of the wolves outfit as a costume 2 once he drops for SF6.
In theory I feel like this should have been his main outfit, but I’m not complaining. Just may have just felt a bit more on brand with how SF6 is the latest in that series’ timeline, but now Terry who fought with younger versions of Ryu and Chun kind of stayed frozen in time lol.
 
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DarthEnderX

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I don’t really care for Street Fighter 6’s more realistic graphical style but I do like Cammy’s and Juri Han’s new outfits.
The outfits are great! I just don't like the realistic art style.

Most characters are a downgrade from their classic designs for me though.
The only one I actively dislike is Ken's. Because I think they gave him the design that Cody should have always had.

Bison's is also worse, but that's intentional because of his plot.
 
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AreJay25

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I hope Terry gets his Mark of the wolves outfit as a costume 2 once he drops for SF6.
The alt that should have been in smash but wasnt.
It's funny. It seemed like the numerous animations revolving around his hat would have been the reason why it was excluded, so as much as it sucked that it wasn't there, at least we had a good reason as to why.

... and then Byleth came out and had altered animations for taunts/victory poses depending on which gender you picked.

... and then KOF XV came out and SNK themselves demonstrated that they could change Terry's hat animations to accommodate for the MotW design.

So yeah I don't know what the **** happened lmao.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Dark Samus switches other elements to electricity. That's an actual gameplay change that's noticeable. It's more than Richter having just one move, where Dark Samus has several(she also has very minor hurtbox changes too, but her giving aesthetic changes like floating as well makes her stand out more anyway than Richter does).

That said, Sakurai didn't really define them beyond "they must be the same bodyshape" as is. Which despite being one small rule, is clearly ignored a lot. No, they aren't "a typical clone", they're actually quite different from how they often were(which were major differences and bodyshapes). This is why suggestions like Black Knight doesn't really work since he's got a different overall size. Likewise, this is why Black Shadow can't work for Captain Falcon. They are not the same body structure(they have quite a noticeable difference). Even when Lucina had a tiny height difference, Ultimate changed it to her being the exact same bodyshape to keep this rule intact.

Similar =/= same. The only thing similar even allows for is finding moves among other characters that can easily be retooled. Like Ike is close enough to Chrom's bodyshape that you can retool the Aether into a new move, but Chrom's bodyshape specifically matches Roy.

The only other thing we've seen is that they always have the same weight, and usually their attributes are about the same or not that different(Ken is an outlier). Regardless of how they do said attributes. Though on an interesting note, Sakurai put together a team to balance all the characters. This could explain why some have barely noticeable differences(I.E. Daisy), because as long as the actual character functioned without issues, it's not a problem in itself. Thus, there's no need for Sakurai to ask to change it up, because it works. When Daisy had a sudden difference, this was reverted due to it being an oversight(as well as some bugs). As much as it sucks, it goes against the original design. She was meant to be 99.999999% the same as Peach, essentially.
 

Gengar84

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BTW if Echoes of wisdom Zelda gets in the next smash would you rather see:

Her Classic (This is a drawing of that design)
View attachment 392150
Or her Protagonist Design?
View attachment 392152
I suppose I’d rather see her protagonist design. It stands out more as its own thing compared to the Zelda we have now. In general, I’m not really huge on having multiple versions of the same character when there’s so many other interesting characters we could see. Thats why I’ve never particularly cared about seeing Paper Mario in Smash.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Dark Samus switches other elements to electricity. That's an actual gameplay change that's noticeable.
Eh. It's not that noticeable. It really just means she can't outright destroy bombs and can damage Red Pikmin, which are both still pretty niche interactions. Also extremely niche, but her Charge Shot hits lower, allowing the uncharged version to hit Pichu sized characters more easily.

That said, Sakurai didn't really define them beyond "they must be the same bodyshape" as is. Which despite being one small rule, is clearly ignored a lot. No, they aren't "a typical clone", they're actually quite different from how they often were(which were major differences and bodyshapes). This is why suggestions like Black Knight doesn't really work since he's got a different overall size. Likewise, this is why Black Shadow can't work for Captain Falcon. They are not the same body structure(they have quite a noticeable difference). Even when Lucina had a tiny height difference, Ultimate changed it to her being the exact same bodyshape to keep this rule intact.

Similar =/= same. The only thing similar even allows for is finding moves among other characters that can easily be retooled. Like Ike is close enough to Chrom's bodyshape that you can retool the Aether into a new move, but Chrom's bodyshape specifically matches Roy.

The only other thing we've seen is that they always have the same weight, and usually their attributes are about the same or not that different(Ken is an outlier). Regardless of how they do said attributes. Though on an interesting note, Sakurai put together a team to balance all the characters. This could explain why some have barely noticeable differences(I.E. Daisy), because as long as the actual character functioned without issues, it's not a problem in itself. Thus, there's no need for Sakurai to ask to change it up, because it works. When Daisy had a sudden difference, this was reverted due to it being an oversight(as well as some bugs). As much as it sucks, it goes against the original design. She was meant to be 99.999999% the same as Peach, essentially.
I think the main thing is that people just don't like standard Echo Fighters, and want to know how far they can push the concept because what they seemingly could be is something that they'd want.

It's established that they need to have the same proportions, except there is some leeway because this isn't true of Marth and Lucina. So then, Black Shadow might work should giving him Captain Falcon's proportions not cause things to look weird. Oh, and the height difference thing with Marth and Lucina is very strange, as since Lucina was originally a costume, she had to have been shrunken down after they gave her her own slot. It's not that impactful a change, and everything scales based on characters' models so did they change it tom be consistant with the others like you said or were they just correcting an accident they didn't notice in SSB4's development?

There's also weird hypotheticals with Villager and Isabelle. Isabelle can't be an Echo Fighter because her perportions are very different compared to Villager, but that's only because Villager uses his design from Animal Crossing: Wild World, while Isabelle uses her design from Animal Crossing: New Leaf. If Villager was also from New Leaf would Isabelle be an Echo Fighter? Their proportions aren't exactly the same in that game, but as we've established, they just need to be similar enough to be made the same without issue. If they did become Echo Fighters, would Isabelle be less different from Villager than she is now?

How many changes can you make to a character's moveset before it becomes too much work for an Echo Fighter? Most of them say basically none at all, having at best some different, mostly aesthetic properties on some of their moves. Chrom and Lucina have sweeping numbers changes to their attacks, and Chrom even has a new up special. This is probably not applicable to all Echo Fighters though, so what else is there? Well Ken has several new moves, and a few movement property changes that allow him a more aggressive variation on Ryu's play style, but it's so out of the norm that people often dismiss it. Then there's Dark Pit who has two variations on Pit's Special Moves that are impactful, but it doesn't change his overall playstyle much, and people aren't super happy with it.

The result is people suggesting Echo Fighters to add characters that woudln't get in otherwise, but wanting them to have actually impactful gameplay changes, and whether or not those changes can be made is pretty hotly debated because half of the people see the opportunity to add more Kens and the other half only see more Daisys.
 
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