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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Shinuto

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I disagree with this. Fortnite's artsyle is a bit generic, but it is still very recognizable and the game has a lot of well-known iconography attached to it. People see characters like Peely and know they're from Fortnite. This is further evidenced by how you can normally tell when a character is rendered in Fortnite due to elements like the saturated colours, rounded heads, lack of detail on clothing and skin, and emphasis on reflective textures (Leon, Spider-Man, and Kratos demonstrate this well, among others).
It's recognizable for being ****.
 

Garteam

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It's recognizable for being ****.
Be honest, what does this add to the conversation?

I'm not a massive fan of Fortnite or its general look either (I think it looks a little flat in motion, although Fortnite's art direction helped end AAA Gaming's obsession with brown and gray realism, so I can appreciate that). I'm also not going to act like there aren't people who like Fortnite or its art style. Tens of millions of people play Fortnite. People buy merch based on the character designs and rally to get their favourite pop culture characters into Fortnite. It's not for me, but it's clearly for someone.

It's easy to hate Fortnite because it's cringe, overcommercialized, shameless in its cross-promotion, owned by Epic Games, getting more into bed with Disney, or whatever other reason that may come to mind. Fortnite is also the video game success story of the past decade and getting Fortnite early in its life was pivotal to the Switch's success. We're past the point of "wait and see if this is a fad" and into serious consideration of some potential content.
 

Gengar84

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I don't think any live service game should be repped in Smash due to the possibility that they won't exist in the future, so future Smash players will have no way to play their game of origin. Same goes for mobile games.
Couldn’t you also say that about older gaming franchises that no longer have any games like Earthbound? Even if live service games die out, they can still use the characters, lore, and world for other genres of games and media. Just look at League of Legends that has branched out into a huge Netflix show, a digital card game, a team based fighting game, and others. WarCraft has expanded in similar ways with RTS games, a big MMO, a MOBA, a digital card game, and a movie.
 

RileyXY1

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Couldn’t you also say that about older gaming franchises that no longer have any games like Earthbound? Even if live service games die out, they can still use the characters, lore, and world for other genres of games and media. Just look at League of Legends that has branched out into a huge Netflix show, a digital card game, a team based fighting game, and others. WarCraft has expanded in similar ways with RTS games, a big MMO, a MOBA, a digital card game, and a movie.
Warcraft and League of Legends have their own unique identities to themselves, and Warcraft existed long before WOW did. Fortnite doesn't have one. Fortnite is nothing more than a mass crossover now, and its original characters are now nothing more than default templates to put your favorite media characters over.
 

Hadokeyblade

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I don't think any live service game should be repped in Smash due to the possibility that they won't exist in the future, so future Smash players will have no way to play their game of origin. Same goes for mobile games.
Buddy we've long since past that by virtue of adding the first Splatoon as a character and stage plus Fire emblem heroes and that one Tekken mobile game's music
 

Gengar84

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Warcraft and League of Legends have their own unique identities to themselves, and Warcraft existed long before WOW did. Fortnite doesn't have one. Fortnite is nothing more than a mass crossover now, and its original characters are now nothing more than default templates to put your favorite media characters over.
Fair enough. I’m aware WarCraft is much older than WoW but the RTS games have kind of fallen off and it’s primarily an MMO franchise now. I played a good amount of WarCraft 3 back in the day but haven’t touched WoW.

As for Fortnite, I can’t really speak much to its original content since I have no experience with the game. It sounds almost exactly like what’s happening with Magic: The Gathering with its Universes Beyond crossover focus at the expense of its original stories and characters. Is it possible your issue might be with Fortnite specifically rather than live service games as a whole.
 
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Shinuto

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Name five Fortnite modes that are currently live and maybe I’ll believe that you’ve actually tried the game before making that comment. :sakbanjo:
I don't need to play the game or know anything about it's modes to know it looks ****
 
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Gengar84

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I really like the way Fortnite looks. It's colorful and dynamic, much like Smash.
Never played it though.
Yeah, the general aesthetic does remind me a bit of Smash. The biggest difference I’ve noticed is the hair. Fortnite’s hair reminds me more of Smash 4 where it almost looks like a toy (like Ganondorf’s in that game) where Smash Ultimate’s hair looks much more realistic.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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Warcraft and League of Legends have their own unique identities to themselves, and Warcraft existed long before WOW did. Fortnite doesn't have one. Fortnite is nothing more than a mass crossover now, and its original characters are now nothing more than default templates to put your favorite media characters over.
I don't think that's really true. I mean, yeah it's a big crossover thing, and yeah the original characters do seem to be just one of the many skins you could have, but it does still have an identity. It's the battle royale game where a bunch of players destroy terrain for weapons and other resources and take part in fire fights within a rapidly closing in boundary so they can be the last man standing. As for the original characters specifically, it might just be an add thing, but the OCs have their own story lines going on.

Also, a mass crossover can easily have its own identity. Case in point: All of the crossover platform fighters. Smash is a celebration of gaming that takes place in a world of imagination, PlayStation All Stars: Battle Royale is a somewhat darker, more story based crossover where characters are getting dragged across realms by a failed PlayStation mascot, Nikolodeon All Star Brawl is like Smash, but with Nikolodeon cartoons and far less money, and Multiversus is setup like if a Loony Toons cartoon was also a battle anime where they're fighting for the fate of all worlds.
 

Will

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I don't need to play the game or know anything about it's modes to know it looks ****
This dude got Fortnitephobia

I don't think any live service game should be repped in Smash due to the possibility that they won't exist in the future, so future Smash players will have no way to play their game of origin. Same goes for mobile games.
:ultinkling: You’re six years too late. :ultinklingboy:
 

cashregister9

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Warcraft and League of Legends have their own unique identities to themselves, and Warcraft existed long before WOW did. Fortnite doesn't have one. Fortnite is nothing more than a mass crossover now, and its original characters are now nothing more than default templates to put your favorite media characters over.
It is is probably just the 1000 hours of Fortnite talking, and the fact I've seen this take a lot but, Fortnite existed for years before Battle Royale and even when Battle Royale came around they added its own internal lore with characters, plot points and everything else and it is actively maintained and updated (Albeit inconsistently). It's like saying Kingdom Hearts has no identity because it is a crossover. Fortnite has also used the fact that it is a big crossover in the lore to show why even the original skins are so varied.

If we wanna be oblique about it, Fortnite has so many iconic things like Peely, Cuddle Team Leader, The Loot Llama, The Battle Bus, Jonesy etc. that are a part of the cultural subconscious.

And in terms of things that affect smash, Fortnite even has its own Musical Identity with so many great songs and not to mention the plethora of locations like Tilted Towers.
 

Speed Weed

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To be honest, I know Fortnite has a distinct identity, I know it has plenty of stuff that can be pulled from, it's just that none of it appeals to me, quite frankly. I don't like the artstyle, I don't like the designs, I have zero interest in the gameplay, I recognize that it has merit to be included but there's just nothing there that interests or excites me
 

fogbadge

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Mobile games should be represented in Smash in some way.
While there are some that I can see as full fighters, I rather see them as mostly through stages, assist trophies, music or Mii costumes. Granted, there is music from Minecraft Earth and FE Heroes, but my point still stands.
i like the idea of a gym from Pokemon go as a stage
 

Opossum

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I think the idea that "they shouldn't add games that people won't be able to play in the future" is being used against Fortnite is funny considering what company bankrolls Smash Bros.
 
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BritishGuy54

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I think the idea that "they shouldn't add games that people won't be able to play in the future" is being used against Fortnite is funny considering what company bankrolls Smash Bros.
I think there’s a difference between only needing to purchase an older console to play older games compared to never being able to play a game ever again once servers shut down.
 

Gengar84

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I don’t know a ton of mobile games but I would imagine Granblue Fantasy is probably the most likely since it’s expanded into consoles and even got an anime and a fighting game. I’m a bit tempted to try the console RPG but I haven’t gotten around to it yet. I did watch the anime though. Gran is a bit plain to me but I liked Katalina in the anime. I also like that Eugen looks a lot like Zegram so that’s something.
 
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Slime Scholar

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I think there’s a difference between only needing to purchase an older console to play older games compared to never being able to play a game ever again once servers shut down.
Basically this.

I remember when people were talking about Euden from Dragalia Lost as a potential DLC character for Ultimate. He was hardly a popular choice but it’s certainly a lot more difficult to imagine him getting in now that his game effectively no longer exists.

Enormously successful games like Fortnite probably aren’t facing that risk anytime in the foreseeable future but I do see how it’s different from “they don’t make Earthbound games anymore.”
 

Gengar84

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Basically this.

I remember when people were talking about Euden from Dragalia Lost as a potential DLC character for Ultimate. He was hardly a popular choice but it’s certainly a lot more difficult to imagine him getting in now that his game effectively no longer exists.

Enormously successful games like Fortnite probably aren’t facing that risk anytime in the foreseeable future but I do see how it’s different from “they don’t make Earthbound games anymore.”
Yeah, I suppose you’re right about that. Maybe that wasn’t the best analogy. Still, the very popular live service games can always expand their franchise into completely different genres and media like League of Legends has. So even if the main series does shut down, that doesn’t necessarily mean we’ll never be able to play as those characters again.
 

Slime Scholar

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Yeah, I suppose you’re right about that. Maybe that wasn’t the best analogy. Still, the very popular live service games can always expand their franchise into completely different genres and media like League of Legends has. So even if the main series does shut down, that doesn’t necessarily mean we’ll never be able to play as those characters again.
That’s also true. A lot of these games will probably always exist in some form.
 

Freduardo

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Basically this.

I remember when people were talking about Euden from Dragalia Lost as a potential DLC character for Ultimate. He was hardly a popular choice but it’s certainly a lot more difficult to imagine him getting in now that his game effectively no longer exists.

Enormously successful games like Fortnite probably aren’t facing that risk anytime in the foreseeable future but I do see how it’s different from “they don’t make Earthbound games anymore.”
I miss Dragalia Lost. I think Cygames and Nintendo aren't getting along right now. And I still think Dragalia's failure could have been avoided with a switch port and cross play to mobile.
 

cashregister9

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Mobile games should be represented in Smash in some way.
While there are some that I can see as full fighters, I rather see them as mostly through stages, assist trophies, music or Mii costumes. Granted, there is music from Minecraft Earth and FE Heroes, but my point still stands.
Fate/Grand Order, Granblue Fantasy and Dragalia Lost are still high on my list of most wanted things in smash tbh.
 

BritishGuy54

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Mobile games should be represented in Smash in some way.
While there are some that I can see as full fighters, I rather see them as mostly through stages, assist trophies, music or Mii costumes. Granted, there is music from Minecraft Earth and FE Heroes, but my point still stands.
I do think if we get a mobile game rep, it’s probably gonna be a gacha game instead of something like Angry Birds or the like.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Eh. It's not that noticeable. It really just means she can't outright destroy bombs and can damage Red Pikmin, which are both still pretty niche interactions. Also extremely niche, but her Charge Shot hits lower, allowing the uncharged version to hit Pichu sized characters more easily.
That's more noticeable than Richter, imo. But regardless, she does have more differences.

I think the main thing is that people just don't like standard Echo Fighters, and want to know how far they can push the concept because what they seemingly could be is something that they'd want.

It's established that they need to have the same proportions, except there is some leeway because this isn't true of Marth and Lucina. So then, Black Shadow might work should giving him Captain Falcon's proportions not cause things to look weird. Oh, and the height difference thing with Marth and Lucina is very strange, as since Lucina was originally a costume, she had to have been shrunken down after they gave her her own slot. It's not that impactful a change, and everything scales based on characters' models so did they change it tom be consistant with the others like you said or were they just correcting an accident they didn't notice in SSB4's development?
Lucina was only different from Marth in height in SSB4. They changed it to so they're pretty much the same in Ultimate specifically. This may simply just be because she became an Echo Fighter and was adhering to a new rule.

There's also weird hypotheticals with Villager and Isabelle. Isabelle can't be an Echo Fighter because her perportions are very different compared to Villager, but that's only because Villager uses his design from Animal Crossing: Wild World, while Isabelle uses her design from Animal Crossing: New Leaf. If Villager was also from New Leaf would Isabelle be an Echo Fighter? Their proportions aren't exactly the same in that game, but as we've established, they just need to be similar enough to be made the same without issue. If they did become Echo Fighters, would Isabelle be less different from Villager than she is now?
The bodyshape was part of it, but Sakurai also noted Isabelle needed new moves to more accurately portray her. So her chances of being an Echo Fighter were slim even if Villager had a new model.

How many changes can you make to a character's moveset before it becomes too much work for an Echo Fighter? Most of them say basically none at all, having at best some different, mostly aesthetic properties on some of their moves. Chrom and Lucina have sweeping numbers changes to their attacks, and Chrom even has a new up special. This is probably not applicable to all Echo Fighters though, so what else is there? Well Ken has several new moves, and a few movement property changes that allow him a more aggressive variation on Ryu's play style, but it's so out of the norm that people often dismiss it. Then there's Dark Pit who has two variations on Pit's Special Moves that are impactful, but it doesn't change his overall playstyle much, and people aren't super happy with it.
That's why it's confusing. We know the hard rule is "same bodyshape", but that's just at best what we're given. We've seen, as I said, that they all have the same weight, and it's worth noting the attributes are generally not very different(Ken has mildly different ones). The other thing about Ken is that despite this, he and Ryu aren't that far off competitively from each other. This is also why people can understand him staying at that label, since it's clear that they're still pretty similar. Dr. Mario only looks similar, but his changes make him nightmarishly different from Mario, being worlds apart. Thus, it makes sense why he wasn't one. There's also the factor he already was in previous games like Melee, but was also planned for Brawl. So his labeling is likely just a Veteran thing. That said, Ken easily could've been a non-Echo too. The rest are not nearly as massive as Ken. Lucina's thing is that her animations are mostly the same, it's just they didn't give her the same mechanic(Chrom is this too, though he uses a different way to hold his sword, while still sharing Roy's moveset, but also has a new move).

The result is people suggesting Echo Fighters to add characters that woudln't get in otherwise, but wanting them to have actually impactful gameplay changes, and whether or not those changes can be made is pretty hotly debated because half of the people see the opportunity to add more Kens and the other half only see more Daisys.
Oh, I agree Daisy is ridiculously bad at this. I like to put 'em up like this in terms of uniqueness;

Ken > Chrom > Lucina > Dark Pit > Dark Samus > Richter > Daisy. I feel that Dark Samus is okay since she has some minor enough differences that can affect gameplay when it comes to the "least possible". Richter doesn't need much more, and Daisy is just... wow.

We'll have to get used to Echo Fighters sometimes not having truly impactful gameplay, though. Like, Dark Samus isn't bad(though not great) persay, because they at least gave her some changes. This isn't a bit ridiculous like Richter having one change, and Daisy barely having anything(which ironically makes her the highest tier among the Echo Fighters, lol). Like, I don't think her having worse Turnips like the accidental patch did is enough. Just a tad more would do it.

That said, nothing wrong with wanting Lucina levels either(she has some impactful differences, while still keeping the same point behind her). I think what's also confusing is that an Echo can have the same mechanics(Ken's mechanics are basically Roy's, but he has different move commands to match his own personal gameplay) to differentiate them, or not have the same mechanic at all(Lucina) but still stand out. So it's a matter of "how they approach it". But yeah, we just lack details beyond one hard rule.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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The bodyshape was part of it, but Sakurai also noted Isabelle needed new moves to more accurately portray her. So her chances of being an Echo Fighter were slim even if Villager had a new model.
Hmm. So I guess a fairly reasonable rule would be that if a character's personality clashes with too much of the base fighter's moveset, they need to be regular clones as well.

Perhaps Shadow would be a good example? I don't think he's able to Spin Dash, and while that hasn't stopped Dark Samus from Morph Balling around, it's also hard to picture him doing his forward smash, forward tilt, or down smash.
 

Perkilator

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Hmm. So I guess a fairly reasonable rule would be that if a character's personality clashes with too much of the base fighter's moveset, they need to be regular clones as well.

Perhaps Shadow would be a good example? I don't think he's able to Spin Dash, and while that hasn't stopped Dark Samus from Morph Balling around, it's also hard to picture him doing his forward smash, forward tilt, or down smash.
Actually, Shadow is able to Spin Dash in games like Adventure 2, Heroes and his own game, IIRC.
 
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