Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DKing]

Alex Kidd's potential moveset was to have you collect moneybags by hurting opponents, and then have the down special be the shopkeeper who gives you the vehicles in the game by paying him.

Basically think of Finn in Multiversus, but instead of power-ups It is the three vehicles in Alex Kidd.

Could works but every time you use the vehicle you do less damage.

 

[Laniv]

It kind of makes you wonder.

Is Rosalina somewhat superfluous?

Not really, no. I was actually pretty surprised she wasn't in Mario Wonder

 

[PeridotGX]

It kind of makes you wonder.

Is Rosalina somewhat superfluous?

I wouldn't go as far as to say she's superfluous, but if I had to choose between the Smash 4 Mario characters, i would probably keep Junior and cut her. I know this is a hot take, but Rosalina hasn't really done much since 3D World. On the other hand, Bowser Jr has appearances in the Maker games, Bowser's Fury, and Wonder, and brings the Koopalings with him.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

By the way, did we ever learn how much Princess Peach Showtime sold?

 

[Noipoi]

By the way, did we ever learn how much Princess Peach Showtime sold?

A Peachillion dollars

 

[Perkilator]

By the way, did we ever learn how much Princess Peach Showtime sold?

About 1.22 million copies as of May 2024.

 

[fogbadge]

And while we’re at it let’s check on TTYD remaster

 

[SPEN18]

I don't think "superfluous" is the right word, just, if cuts had to be made beyond the clones and PP, you could hypothetically see Rosa being cut; however, I don't think that will actually happen. If she weren't continuing to maintain prominence beyond Galaxy, then yeah it would probably look pretty dire for her, but she's assimilated into the Mario cast to such a degree that I expect her to stay for Smash 6.

 

[ShotoStar]

And while we’re at it let’s check on TTYD remaster

I'm really curious about this too, especially in comparison to the SMRPG remake. I'm fairly confident the TTYD remaster sold better than the SMRPG remake considering that Paper Mario as a franchise has a much wider appeal than SMRPG and when it comes to "all time great Mario RPGs" it's the go-to example of such more than SMRPG is as the latter is more centralized into it's own little hardcore niche. However, they're all Mario RPGs at the end of the day and I wonder if fatigue will have any factor in lowering sales from the SMRPG remake to TTYD remaster to Mario & Luigi Brothership

 

[Gorgonzales]

Still wild to me that we got all 3 Mario RPG series back in the span of around a year after they've been dead in the water, in addition to stuff like Mario + Rabbids.

It's glorious. I hope the TTYD remake sells well enough to get the message across that we like originality and weird stuff in Mario games. (And even then, what are they going to do? Go, "hey, now that we finished that waaacky remake with all of those unique locales, original characters, and tightly-designed gameplay mechanics, let's go back to doing the literal opposite of all those!")

 

[dream1ng]

It kind of makes you wonder.

Is Rosalina somewhat superfluous?

Insofar as she's not Mario, Luigi, Peach or Bowser, yes. But superfluous, I agree, isn't the best word. More that those four aren't expendable and everyone else, in theory, is (not counting Yoshi and Wario).

Clones and PP aside, I think Bowser Jr would be cut before she was though because he just seems to be less prioritized. Though granted, that doesn't mean it would always stay that way.

Not at all. She's a character who made an incredible first impression and is still very well liked almost two decades later.

(It's amazing what you can do with a character when you actually let them have some sort of story, but alas...)

How many cuts are you expecting?

 

[CrusherMania1592]

How many cuts are you expecting?

I'm thinking between 5 to 15 cuts. It depends on what they plan for the next game. Echoes and third parties imo are the ones I feel have the highest chance of getting cut.

But I could be wrong with this one and ends up with 15 unique fighters cut instead

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Echoes have the highest chance of getting cut because historically they've only been put into the game to begin with when they have extra dev time.

 

[Noipoi]

Still wild to me that we got all 3 Mario RPG series back in the span of around a year after they've been dead in the water, in addition to stuff like Mario + Rabbids.

It's glorious. I hope the TTYD remake sells well enough to get the message across that we like originality and weird stuff in Mario games. (And even then, what are they going to do? Go, "hey, now that we finished that waaacky remake with all of those unique locales, original characters, and tightly-designed gameplay mechanics, let's go back to doing the literal opposite of all those!")

My dream is a new Paper Mario game with turn based battles and partners like TTYD, while also keeping the things that Origami King legitimately did well.

 

[superprincess]

It kind of makes you wonder.

Is Rosalina somewhat superfluous?

She's not what you would consider a video game all-star, or even a Nintendo one at that, but I think that's because she's a tertiary Mario character. However, when we think about actual game sales and recognizability, Rosalina is just as easy to justify as any other Mario character of her caliber.

The "problem" with Rosalina is that, besides her, there aren't any other one-off supporting characters in Smash. Most series don't have the luxury the Mario series has, to represent the deeper facets of their franchise. So Rosa kinda sticks out.

I think the notion that she's superfluous comes from comparisons such as:

"If Legend of Zelda only gets to delve as deep as Sheik, why does Mario get to go as far as Rosalina?"

People forget that Mario has more of an all star cast than any other franchise in the roster.

 

[Pupp135]

It kind of makes you wonder.

Is Rosalina somewhat superfluous?

I wouldn’t say that Rosalina is superfluous as she is a popular Mario character, and the puppet fighter is unique from a gameplay perspective, but I can see Rosalina getting dropped if we lose 20-30 non-echo fighters given the competition she has even outside of the Mario franchise. In the context of the Mario franchise, I’d assume she’s close to Bowser Jr. in terms of priority where it’s really a matter of whether the puppet gimmick is more important than the clown car and Bowser Jr.’s role in the Mario series.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

All the talk from the previous page made me wonder

Imagine that we get a new Mario newcomers and turns out to be a surprise pick. Not Waluigi, Toad, Paper Mario, Geno


Toadette and Toadette alone


How would you react with her getting in over other popular picks?

 

[CannonStreak]

While we are talking about what is superfluous and all, I just want to say: It seems to me that the roster is made of of mainly those who are either an all-star or have high popularity. I do think that being an all-star or being popular, or being important even is what makes a character able to get into Smash.

In the case of Piranha Plant, I would say it is an all star for being a recognizable Mario enemy, even if it was not popular or wanted for Smash.

 

[Freduardo]

All the talk from the previous page made me wonder

Imagine that we get a new Mario newcomers and turns out to be a surprise pick. Not Waluigi, Toad, Paper Mario, Geno


Toadette and Toadette alone


How would you react with her getting in over other popular picks?

mostly ambivalently, she’s fun enough. And I wasn’t getting Fawful anyway.

if she uses the peach crown in her moveset and bowsette memes return however, I’ll enjoy it just for the catchy chalkeaters song.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

All the talk from the previous page made me wonder

Imagine that we get a new Mario newcomers and turns out to be a surprise pick. Not Waluigi, Toad, Paper Mario, Geno


Toadette and Toadette alone


How would you react with her getting in over other popular picks?

superprincess is that you? What are you doing in Crusher's account?

 

[RodNutTakin]

All the talk from the previous page made me wonder

Imagine that we get a new Mario newcomers and turns out to be a surprise pick. Not Waluigi, Toad, Paper Mario, Geno


Toadette and Toadette alone


How would you react with her getting in over other popular picks?

Well, it's like I've said, I think I actually prefer that over Toad himself, for reasons I have described on previous pages. I feel like out of every Toad besides arguably Toadsworth (who seems to have been soft-retired anyway, as his only appearances in the past decade have been in remakes), Toadette is the one with the most defined character, and it helps that she's appeared in a grand majority of Switch-era Mario titles.

EDIT: Quickly grabbed the Mario Wiki's list of her Switch-era appearances. Out of the 30 released Switch games listed on said wiki's games list, Toadette's appeared in nearly two-thirds of those releases, and that ratio only improves if you exclude games on the wiki's Switch list that she wouldn't be expected to show up in anyway, like DKC Tropical Freeze, Tetris 99 and Yoshi's Crafted World.

 

[Opossum]

Insofar as she's not Mario, Luigi, Peach or Bowser, yes. But superfluous, I agree, isn't the best word. More that those four aren't expendable and everyone else, in theory, is (not counting Yoshi and Wario).

Clones and PP aside, I think Bowser Jr would be cut before she was though because he just seems to be less prioritized. Though granted, that doesn't mean it would always stay that way.


How many cuts are you expecting?

A good amount, roughly 20 or so, give or take.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Smash 3DS = Sonic 3
Smash Wii U = Sonic & Knuckles
When was the last time you heard someone seriously try to insist that Sonic & Knuckles is Sonic 4?

I'll insist this so that I forget Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode I and Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode II existed.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

All the talk from the previous page made me wonder

Imagine that we get a new Mario newcomers and turns out to be a surprise pick. Not Waluigi, Toad, Paper Mario, Geno


Toadette and Toadette alone


How would you react with her getting in over other popular picks?

Legit would not be a "surprise" to me.

 

[superprincess]

All the talk from the previous page made me wonder

Imagine that we get a new Mario newcomers and turns out to be a surprise pick. Not Waluigi, Toad, Paper Mario, Geno


Toadette and Toadette alone


How would you react with her getting in over other popular picks?

I'd be really excited, especially if she incorporates the Super Crown in any way. I feel like some of Toadette's roles lend themselves to a more clear cut moveset than Toad. You could even do Mario Maker stuff considering she was the Chief of all builders in MM2's story mode.

superprincess is that you? What are you doing in Crusher's account?

I didn't hack anyone, people are just realizing Toadette's superiority

 

[HyperSomari64]

That Sonic 3&K/Smash 4 analogy makes me believe on a Super Smash Bros. Schoolhouse spin-off. =^]

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

I don't really consider Rosalina superfluous, like she's a popular character with unique moveset potential with her puppet archetype. She might not be as common in the series as say Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser and Bowser Jr when it comes to the playable Mario character so far, but her fighting style is so unique that I think she should stay in as a whole.

As for Toad's moveset, I'm ngl I do agree that there isn't much he can do that isn't done by some other character already. A fast character who hits hard but has bad jumps and air mobility? We already have that in the form of . Maybe the best option generally would be to take some moves from the Master in N64 Paper Mario and Prince Mush in TTYD and call it a day (other then the going Super Saiyan thing), with some references to Mario power-ups from NSMB U and Wonder included.

But yeah, I honestly consider Waluigi, Paper Mario and Geno to be more likely then Toad.

 

[Will]

All the talk from the previous page made me wonder

Imagine that we get a new Mario newcomers and turns out to be a surprise pick. Not Waluigi, Toad, Paper Mario, Geno


Toadette and Toadette alone


How would you react with her getting in over other popular picks?

The internet will laugh at my fanbase for another five to ten years. I’ve already had to deal with six years of “A ****ING PLANT” ****posts.

 

[HyperSomari64]

Smash 3DS = Sonic 3
Smash Wii U = Sonic & Knuckles
When was the last time you heard someone seriously try to insist that Sonic & Knuckles is Sonic 4?

But Smash 4 has no Lock-On Technology to bring the content from both versions.

 

[CannonStreak]

I don't really consider Rosalina superfluous, like she's a popular character with unique moveset potential with her puppet archetype. She might not be as common in the series as say Mario, Luigi, Peach, Bowser and Bowser Jr when it comes to the playable Mario character so far, but her fighting style is so unique that I think she should stay in as a whole.

As for Toad's moveset, I'm ngl I do agree that there isn't much he can do that isn't done by some other character already. A fast character who hits hard but has bad jumps and air mobility? We already have that in the form of . Maybe the best option generally would be to take some moves from the Master in N64 Paper Mario and Prince Mush in TTYD and call it a day (other then the going Super Saiyan thing), with some references to Mario power-ups from NSMB U and Wonder included.

But yeah, I honestly consider Waluigi, Paper Mario and Geno to be more likely then Toad.

Based on this, with the four to be taken into consideration, here is who I find likely to become playable for the Mario series (or Square Enix character in Geno's case), from least likely at the top to most likely at the bottom.

Toad
Paper Mario
Geno
Waluigi

Yeah, Waluigi is who I find most likely. I must say, I put Paper Mario as the second least likely due to how a Paper Mario stage got in before him two games now, and because I was putting him in that spot under the assumption that it continues the next game, which hopefully it will not.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Echoes have the highest chance of getting cut because historically they've only been put into the game to begin with when they have extra dev time.

Which doesn't apply to Echoes to begin with.

They were decided upon to be in from the start of the Project Plan. Every single base character we got wasn't just hard planned to be there, but nobody was added to it either. Those exact base newcomers were 100% intentional.

The only thing we can at most gather is that they may have been developed a bit later than of their counterparts, but it's not even that simple; Daisy has only a few hurtbox differences, so it's pretty silly to say she was done well after Peach instead of along with her. But even then, Simon and Richter were built off of each other. It's quite impossible for them to be based upon extra Dev time(which none were anyway in Ultimate). One of the few who is clearly buggy enough to suggest a later one is Chrom, but that's quite literally the only Echo to suggest being developed late(which doesn't change him being intended fully to be in from the start).

Brawl is more awkward, because it wasn't so much extra Dev Time that got the Clones in that we lost Clones because Development was screwed up. Every single character was on the Project Plan. Sonic not being available till the last second meant they couldn't actually add as much as they wanted to, so it's quite the exact opposite of "extra dev time", despite delaying it twice. It is possible even then, if Sonic was available immediately, they couldn't add everyone from the project plan and we'd have less, not more. We don't know enough about it beyond "Dixie Kong was unable to work correctly" at best. Melee, 64, and 4 are the only times extra characters were added that weren't in the project plan due to extra dev time. Though as noted, Brawl and Ultimate don't work exactly the same way. Ultimate wasn't delayed, after all(which at most would've, what, fixed more bugginess? And maybe got a Mode or two in base instead of free DLC).

 

[superprincess]

Have we even seen anything from Ultimate's project plan? I know we have some pages from Smash 4 and I think Brawl..?

Anyway, of all the echoes, Chrom was obviously not planned to be there from the start. His whole inclusion screams "last minute". His character model is ported from Robin's Final Smash, which, speaking of, he's still part of... his facial expressions are kinda weird and his unique animations look kinda rushed. He also had the wrong victory theme at launch lol.

And because she's a lazy inclusion, I've seen people claiming Daisy was a last minute addition but we have hard proof that she's not. The error that caused her turnips to behave differently was a carryover from Smash 4 Peach's data, meaning Daisy was made during a time when Peach was still running on Smash 4 assets.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Have we even seen anything from Ultimate's project plan? I know we have some pages from Smash 4 and I think Brawl..?

Anyway, of all the echoes, Chrom was obviously not planned to be there from the start. His whole inclusion screams "last minute". His character model is ported from Robin's Final Smash, which, speaking of, he's still part of... his facial expressions are kinda weird and his unique animations look kinda rushed. He also had the wrong victory theme at launch lol.

And because she's a lazy inclusion, I've seen people claiming Daisy was a last minute addition but we have hard proof that she's not. The error that caused her turnips to behave differently was a carryover from Smash 4 Peach's data, meaning Daisy was made during a time when Peach was still running on Smash 4 assets.

We do have some, but it's a very hard to find article that wasn't on Source Gaming. I've linked it before, some years ago. It's quite possible the article was lost too. :/ It's pretty rare that Source Gaming is missing an article, heh.

Either way, it just means Chrom was worked on later than some(being he has different animations from Roy overall, that makes sense he took longer). He was still intended to be in from base game, though. I honestly always felt Chrom was one of the last characters developed anyway due to the bugginess, but was going to be there anyway.

Honestly, him being developed last minute wouldn't be that odd. There's always going to be an order of characters worked on. And he doesn't, as I said, match Roy's animations outright. Ken also has this, so they were likely the last two in development or simply the last ones finished of the Echoes. We also had Data of PP's gameplay by September 2018(via a datamine of a demo), so we knew it was worked on a bit after the final characters were mainly developed(if not finished outright. Minor tweaks could've happened all the way till November, when the game went gold). But that said, if they finished Chrom and focused on PP outside of other gameplay, this would explain his bugginess too. They simply didn't do enough and went to other parts.

https://nintendosoup.com/iwata-asked-sakurai-to-make-smash-ultimate-before-his-passing/ At the moment, this is one semi-close statement of it. But it's not the actual details I'm looking for. As I said, hard to find, so apologies. X.X

Actually, here it is, though in an unexpected spot; Incineroar was the only one not decided upon when the project started. Instead, a space was left for a Gen 7 Pokemon from Pokemon Sun & Moon. https://sourcegaming.info/2018/12/12/sakurai-tells-more-details-about-smash-ultimates-development/ There was definitely another statement different from this, but it could've also been an odd translation by the website that put stuff in based upon this. PP is a bit more of a mystery, due to also being in the same interview, especially since we know Sakurai isn't exactly keen on "cutting content for DLC" anyway. That, and the amiibo makes PP after all the base game characters too, but regardless, I won't go into that whole thing. Ignoring that one character(PP), yeah, the rest were part of the project plan as quite clearly stated here, even if the oddest spot possible. XD

 

[Perkilator]

Lately, I’ve been pondering the idea of more characters getting shield specials…but only a select few.

 

[Laniv]

As for Toad's moveset, I'm ngl I do agree that there isn't much he can do that isn't done by some other character already. A fast character who hits hard but has bad jumps and air mobility? We already have that in the form of .

The thing is, if Toad was like that, he'd most likely be different from Mac in that Toad wouldn't be a complete abomination of a character and an utter failure of Smash 4's character design philosophy!

...God the more I think about it, the more I hate how they did Little Mac

 

[Gorgonzales]

Lately, I’ve been pondering the idea of more characters getting shield specials…but only a select few.

A handful of fighters could really use the utility. Olimar's whistle comes to mind, that's great shield special material.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

As for Toad's moveset, I'm ngl I do agree that there isn't much he can do that isn't done by some other character already. A fast character who hits hard but has bad jumps and air mobility? We already have that in the form of . Maybe the best option generally would be to take some moves from the Master in N64 Paper Mario and Prince Mush in TTYD and call it a day (other then the going Super Saiyan thing), with some references to Mario power-ups from NSMB U and Wonder included.

Why would Toad be like Little Mac? His aerial mobility isn't bad in his home series. He just has low jumps as a counterbalance for how fast he is.

As far as standing out goes, I think his power fantasy overlaps more with Luigi, as Toads are often shown to be cowardly, and the only other trait he's really shown was that he's cute. Even so, I'd say that's still enough to work with. Captain Toad takes the vibes in a very different direction as a self-confident, but pretty incompetent self proclaimed adventurer. Characters that bumble and BS their way through battle aren't entirely new, but I do think this specific brand of it could add something unique.

Then for his gameplay, there's two obvious directions: One is designing off of Super Mario Bros., likely as a brawler with stubby normals, but pretty good overall mobility apart from being in the "can't reach Battlefield's platforms in a single jump" club, and maybe a somewhat poor air acceleration making his jumps more committal. Optionally, he could be a stance character that uses power ups from the series to augment his mobility depending on his needs (ex. Using the Propeller Mushroom to make him jump higher in exchange for becoming way floatier or the Super Bell to gain the ability to dive kick).

The second is designing him off of Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker, giving him really poor overall mobility and a setup heavy playstyle to reflect the puzzle game inspirations. I don't have too much to flesh out the idea, but a slow, non-trap based setup character would be pretty darn unique.

I have no idea why (Captain) Toad isn't in the game right now, but I don't think the inability to stand out is the reason.

 

[ninjahmos]

I still think Black Shadow would be an excellent Echo for Captain Falcon.

 

[NintenRob]

I want to add something to this Rosalina discussion.

Rosalina is very interesting and curious case as far as characters added to Smash Bros. Someone made the comparison to it being the equivalent of adding Midna to Smash, which feels very appropriate. When the decided to include her, she really only had Galaxy and Mario Kart to her name and had hardly established herself as a mainstay. Being in Mario Kart 7 with her own track was neat, but she was still absent from all the Mario Parties and sport games. I think it was 3D World that really cemented her as a staple, but even though 3D World release before Smash 4, the decision to include her in Smash likely came first.

Despite that though, Smash Bros tends to treat Rosalina as a big deal. She was all over the marketing for Smash 4. She was on the cover of Smash 3DS, the extended cover art for Smash Wii U. Featured in Bowser Jr's trailer and in the menus for both games. And even in Smash Ultimate, she still gets to show up in the CG trailers. Not even Peach got to do that. Smash Bros often treats Rosalina as a bigger deal than PEACH. In fact the only CG trailer to ever feature Peach was Rosalina's herself. (Though Peach got to be on the cover art of Smash Wii U and Smash Ultimate proper.)


So yeah, I don't think Rosalina is getting cut

 

[cashregister9]

When talking about shield specials, having them be essentially QOL moves is the way to go 100%

But another part of me likes the idea of everyone having a shield special but making it like a unique type of move that weakens your shield for a bit for a buff or powerful attack or something like that. My mind went specifically to something like Denjin Charge for Ryu, Having Lucario Mega Evolve or even something like Divine Pulse for Byleth. It wouldn't be particularly balanced, and kinda hard to do for everyone but I think it could lead to some wacky stuff.