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Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

Garteam

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I could see us getting Toad, Waluigi, and Geno at the same time. They all occupy different niches in terms of playstyle, aesthetics, and why they're being added. The only reason to think the inclusion of one would effect the others is because they're all Mario characters, but Melee and Smash for each added three Mario characters that weren't in the previous game. Granted, one of those was Dr. Mario, but I still think it demonstrates that multiple Mario characters can co-exist.
 

superprincess

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I remember one of the criteria for character selection in Sakurai's GDC slides was the following: "It's important to have something only that character can do."

I believe this is where Toad falls short. Whenever he's playable, he's always got the same moveset as Mario, sometimes being faster (and stronger in SMB2). Aside from that, he pretty much never displays any unique abilities.

I'd still enjoy a Toad moveset that focuses on powerups and the few unique things Toad has to offer, but I understand Sakurai may not see it that way. I'll also note that Toad's build is really distinct and we haven't seen anything similar to it yet.

Let's hope Sakurai saw Toadette's surge in popularity within Nintendo, alongside Peachette being featured as a selling point for the NSMBU port, and decided that a transforming/comeback character that goes from stubby mushroom to OP princess is worth it :)
 

Louie G.

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both the mii costume and the new animations in peach’s moves make it feel like he is aware that people want him playable
This is probably the best point in his favor, for what it's worth.

the thing about toad is every argument against his inclusion doesn’t hold water and could easily apply to others on the roster.
Although I think it's insincere to say "every argument" against his conclusion is false and applicable to other characters, when I really don't think any other character exists in Toad's position. Most other series with consistent recurring main casts have seen those characters added fairly early on. Most of them filled out by Brawl, exceptional cases like Ridley later due to prior lack of feasibility and intense, loud fan demand. Toad rests in a very odd limbo where he is overqualified, and has been for about 20 years now, and those bits you mentioned are probably the most forward momentum he's had in that time. Which are definitely a good omen, but is it wrong to suggest this pattern may be working against him?

I'm not saying Toad is impossible, but it's more reasonable to read this as an unfortunate pattern in Toad's case than it is most other characters. Nobody has Toad's level of prominence, is part of a series that has been here since Day 1, has been a consistently important player in that series over all of this time and is still absent from the roster. I really just don't know who else this applies to. Maybe that makes him more of a no brainer now than ever, but I find it difficult to find confidence in that without a major shake-up. Rooting for you guys, though.
 
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superprincess

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well we know that’s utter rubbish going by certain inclusions
When it comes to unique fighters? Not really. Everyone has at least something you could describe as their "thing". I don't know what Toad's thing would be. "Powerups" can't really be it since Mario already uses those in his moveset.
 

superprincess

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tell that to Isabelle, the Belmonts, joker and Sora
Isabelle is a type of clone. She was always meant to be a variation of Villager. Even still, she has the Fishing Rod, which is a totally new type of move (hit grab) and functions uniquely.

The Belmonts moveset is very unique... they can tether with their aerial attacks, which no one else can do, and their general feel is very reminiscent of their origin games. Their projectiles are also very unique (have we had any arching projectiles before Axe?) and they have a two-hit down tilt, which is exclusive to them.

Joker literally has the whole Persona gimmick. Comeback mechanics are common in Smash at this point but when Joker debuted we only really had Cloud's Limit which doesn't really behave like Joker's Arsene. Not to mention it's tied Rebel's Guard, a unique type of counter. Joker also debuted the first ever "poisoning" type move in Smash with Eiha. And his Gun is its own can of worms, giving him access to four three different types of shots and unique dodges.

Sora's floaty physics are unique for a swordfighter. He also has the switching Neutral B which is new, the Side B that allows him to either aim freely or auto aim, and he can also do it after an Up B. Sora is kind of exempt from this rule since he was explicitly chosen due to being #1 on the Ballot.

Anything Toad can do (Powerups, Vegetables, fast ground speed but bad jumps) has already been done. The most unique thing I can think of is a command grab that allows him to run around while carrying opponents ala SMB2, but that's kinda similar to DK's Kong Karry.
 
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Scrimblo Bimblo

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I don't think that failing to show up in Ultimate should be held against Toad or, really, any other character.
Newcomer spots in the base game were very few and were really reserved either for the Ballot winners or for the irrefutable new mascots + Incineroar. DLC was again reserved for Ballot winners, crazy collaborations and Switch-era characters.
Not much space for Toad in either set.

Brawl and definitely Smash 4 can definitely be held against him, though.
 

Opossum

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tell that to Isabelle, the Belmonts, joker and Sora
It's absolutely wild to say that these four have nothing unique to them. Even Isabelle, the most derivative of the four, has a side special unlike anything else in the game.
 

Gorgonzales

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Everyone has at least something you could describe as their "thing". I don't know what Toad's thing would be.
Toad's thing is that he has a big, bouncy head. Even if you ignore his other abilites, you can create a fun moveset out of this alone.

Captain Toad has even more stuff that's unique to him, too. I'm absolutely sure either him or regular Toad can stand on their own if they ever get included.
 

fogbadge

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Isabelle is a type of clone. She was always meant to be a variation of Villager. Even still, she has the Fishing Rod, which is a totally new type of move (hit grab) and functions uniquely.

The Belmonts moveset is very unique... they can tether with their aerial attacks, which no one else can do, and their general feel is very reminiscent of their origin games. Their projectiles are also very unique (have we had any arching projectiles before Axe?) and they have a two-hit down tilt, which is exclusive to them.

Joker literally has the whole Persona gimmick. Comeback mechanics are common in Smash at this point but when Joker debuted we only really had Cloud's Limit which doesn't really behave like Joker's Arsene. Not to mention it's tied Rebel's Guard, a unique type of counter. Joker also debuted the first ever "poisoning" type move in Smash with Eiha. And his Gun is its own can of worms, giving him access to four three different types of shots and unique dodges.

Sora's floaty physics are unique for a swordfighter. He also has the switching Neutral B which is new, the Side B that allows him to either aim freely or auto aim, and he can also do it after an Up B. Sora is kind of exempt from this rule since he was explicitly chosen due to being #1 on the Ballot.

Anything Toad can do (Powerups, Vegetables, fast ground speed but bad jumps) has already been done. The most unique thing I can think of is a command grab that allows him to run around while carrying opponents ala SMB2, but that's kinda similar to DK's Kong Karry.
It's absolutely wild to say that these four have nothing unique to them. Even Isabelle, the most derivative of the four, has a side special unlike anything else in the game.
oh so we're meaning unique to smash are we? so what's wrong with the many many power ups that no one in smash is using?
 

Louie G.

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oh so we're meaning unique to smash are we? so what's wrong with the many many power ups that no one in smash is using?
I mean, what was the context you meant exactly? It's wild to say someone like Simon doesn't bring something unique to the table in just about any context. Visually, gameplay feel, weapons... he's got a lot going on that only really makes sense on a Castlevania character.

For what it's worth, I think Toad has plenty to bring to the table so I'm not really arguing with you on that front.
 
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superprincess

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oh so we're meaning unique to smash are we? so what's wrong with the many many power ups that no one in smash is using?
The fact that those powerups are just as much a Toad thing as they are a Mario, Luigi, Peach, or even a Daisy and Rosalina thing. Using those characters' leftovers isn't enough of a unique concept to bring Toad into Smash.
 

Guynamednelson

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I mean, what was the context you meant exactly? It's wild to say someone like Simon doesn't bring something unique to the table in just about any context. Visually, gameplay feel, weapons... he's got a lot going on that only really makes sense on a Castlevania character.

For what it's worth, I think Toad has plenty to bring to the table so I'm not really arguing with you on that front.
I think he disagrees with the notion that characters need something ONLY they can do when, for example, Simon takes moves from Richter and vice-versa, I dunno.
 

Gengar84

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The fact that those powerups are just as much a Toad thing as they are a Mario, Luigi, Peach, or even a Daisy and Rosalina thing. Using those characters' leftovers isn't enough of a unique concept to bring Toad into Smash.
Well, Toad runs the power up houses in Super Mario Bros. 3 so that’s something at least.
 
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superprincess

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Well, Toad runs the power up houses in Super Mario Bros. 3 so that’s something at least.
Well, that doesn't really mean he's more associated with the powerups than the other characters, does it? I mean, if we're gonna get into such strawman territory, I'd say that the red Toad that runs the powerup houses is never seen actually using them. That's all Yellow and Blue Toad. NSMB Wii and U make it clear that those are separate entities!
 

LiveStudioAudience

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Well, Toad runs the power up houses in Super Mario Bros. 3 so that’s something at least.
Not satisfied with the RNG elements of Hero, Sakurai outdoes himself via the Toad House Box Mechanic where Toad can put down a treasure box and the powerup inside will be one of 9 different options (with the P Wing being fairly rare and Kuribo's shoe even rarer).

His final smash will be a warp whistle whose summoned tornadoes can knock other fighters off the screen if they hit.
 

fogbadge

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The fact that those powerups are just as much a Toad thing as they are a Mario, Luigi, Peach, or even a Daisy and Rosalina thing. Using those characters' leftovers isn't enough of a unique concept to bring Toad into Smash.
How is it their leftovers when a lot of them didn’t exist when these characters got into smash? and what sense does it make that it has to be unique to both smash and their own series?
 

Louie G.

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I think my favorite angle with Toad is running with him as sort of a small, speedy grappler. Most grapplers are going to be big slow guys to offset their strength, but giving Toad a command grab based off Mario 2, where he can pick up his opponents from above and carry them around, would give him a pretty unique gameplay niche as a sort of mini strongman. It's pretty cool how nicely Mario 2 set the stage so early for giving these characters defining properties like Toad's strength and speed. On its own it's not the most compelling angle for Smash at this point, but archetypically he would be unique. Like, I know DK can do the cargo throw, but he can't grab in the air and Toad probably could.

Kind of ironic then that the item guy might not end up much of a zoner, for balance purposes. I think pulling out bigger vegetables at the expense of range is probably the right way to do it, with the other items being moreso either physical attacks (helicopter, tanooki / cat suit abilities?) or practical special functions (helicopter, again). He would probably be a fast faller too, so even if functionally we're talking more in Little Mac terms I think it would be more Fox in execution.

There's always a possibility that Sakurai takes liberties with Toad's design elements / theming as well and gives his mushroom head more versatility, as a bouncy platform for opponents when they footstool or even operating as a bumper effect off certain attacks. And he's already planted the seeds for Toad to use spores as a defense mechanism, something that could definitely be brought over if he's removed from Peach and even expanded on as a poison effect that can be inflicted or something. There's enough here - whether or not Sakurai is excited by any of it is another story, but I think there's enough that Toad can feasibly do unique to him that other characters in Smash, or in the Mario series, can't really do on their own.
 
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Gorgonzales

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I think my favorite angle with Toad is running with him as sort of a small, speedy grappler. Most grapplers are going to be big slow guys to offset their strength, but giving Toad a command grab based off Mario 2, where he can pick up his opponents from above and carry them around, would give him a pretty unique gameplay niche as a sort of mini strongman.


That... that angle makes a lot of sense.

I really want this now. A small grappler using the Mario 2 pluck mechanics in a different way than Peach is perfect for Toad. Why did you put this idea in my brain??
 

Louie G.

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I remember one of the criteria for character selection in Sakurai's GDC slides was the following: "It's important to have something only that character can do."
Might be opening up another can of worms here, but this is also kind of why I have trouble seeing Shadow added over the other Sonic candidates unless he is distinctly a semiclone or an echo fighter. At least as the first supporting add. Tails, Knuckles and Dr. Eggman all have very clear hooks, design elements that would inform their movesets in an organic way. Tails with his... tails, Knuckles with his cleated gloves, gliding etc and Eggman being a true blue mech character.

Shadow has his chaos powers, but admittedly I can see that overlapping with Bayonetta and Sephiroth's offerings. Even though he's currently the most highly marketed character and arguably the most popular outside of Sonic himself, the other major characters have in your face quirks that inform a more mechanically / archetypically compelling angle. The gap isn't that huge between these characters so ultimately I'd see that winning out unless Sonic is just getting a clone.
 
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Laniv

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Well, if Mario power ups and mushrooms, things that Toad consistently has a strong association with, isn't unique enough for him because Mario uses them, then Zelda shouldn't be using Nayru's Love/Din's Fire/Farore's Wind because they're just as much Link's moves as they are Zelda's.
 

LiveStudioAudience

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In hindsight Toad simply had the bad fortune of not getting selected in Smash early in the era where faithfulness to original games and absolute uniqueness wasn't as critical. If he had ended up in say, Melee with some powerup/Mario 2 amalgamation moveset, much of the nascent fandom would have just shrugged at it and he'd be some well-established legacy fighter now; with contemporary debates on how much he should be adjusted for Captain Toad and/or 3D World.
 
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Laniv

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In hindsight Toad simply had the bad fortune of not getting selected in Smash early in the era where faithfulness to original games and absolute uniqueness wasn't as critical. If he had ended in say, Melee with some powerup/Mario 2 amalgamation moveset, much of the nascent fandom would have just shrugged at it and he'd be some well-established legacy fighter now; with contemporary debates on how much should be adjusted for Captain Toad and/or 3D World.
Not gonna lie, I think we ought go back to that philosophy
 

Guynamednelson

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Not gonna lie, I think we ought go back to that philosophy
Giving everyone some sort of meter and/or comeback mechanic and/or comeback meter will just result in there still being some sort of homogenity anyway, and characters like Kazuya or Sephiroth can still be unique without it-sometimes I forget Sephiroth has that One Winged Angel gimmick anyway.
 

Laniv

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Giving everyone some sort of meter and/or comeback mechanic and/or comeback meter will just result in there still being some sort of homogenity anyway, and characters like Kazuya or Sephiroth can still be unique without it-sometimes I forget Sephiroth has that One Winged Angel gimmick anyway.
And when I'm old and I've had my fun, I'll give everyone a meter so they can be unique too! Everyone can have a comeback mechanic! And when everyone is unique like that...

1720292234191.png


...No one will be.

Jokes aside, reading your post made me realize I forgot Kazuya had a comeback mechanic at all. He just has so mechanic with the eight tilt attacks and the crouching and uncrouching attacks and the Bowser-like armor and the lower hitlag on his attacks
 

Louie G.

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Do you think they should re-use Peach’s down special for Toad? They both had their first playable appearance in the same game so the vegetable toss does make sense for both of them.
I would personally have it where if Toad is on the ground he'll pull out a fat veggie - no randomness, just a big vegetable - and can chuck it a short distance. And its startup would be more comparable to how it actually is in Mario 2, Toad struggles a bit before tugging it out of the ground but its notably bigger than Peach's and does more knockback. And then in the air, this becomes his command grab where he can pluck his opponent off the ground and carry them around / toss them. This way you'd have a similar move fundamentally, but it would be so different in function that it would barely feel like a shared attack.

If there's any character who Toad can serve to have a few nods to, it's probably Peach anyway. Keeping a few things connected between them sells their relationship well, which is an important part of Toad's identity.
 
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Not sure if this would count as a meter thing, but my idea to integrate the vehicles into Alex Kidd's potential moveset was to have you collect moneybags by hurting opponents, and then have the down special be the shopkeeper who gives you the vehicles in the game by paying him.

Basically think of Finn in Multiversus, but instead of power-ups It is the three vehicles in Alex Kidd.
 

Guynamednelson

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Jokes aside, reading your post made me realize I forgot Kazuya had a comeback mechanic at all. He just has so mechanic with the eight tilt attacks and the crouching and uncrouching attacks and the Bowser-like armor and the lower hitlag on his attacks
Well that's exactly what I mean when I say Kazuya would still be unique without his comeback mechanic on top of all that. I just remember it more than Sephiroth's because it always consistently activates at 100% damage, whereas One-Winged Angel activates whenever it feels like, which is never for me.

While I was thinking about it, I've come up with this list of SSBU newcomers with some sort of meter or comeback mechanic, and how they'd still be unique without it:
  • Inkling would still have the ability to cover fighters in ink
  • Joker's specials are all unique as-is without Arsene, and in fact his down and up-Bs are arguably less unique when Arsene is active
  • Hero would still have his massive list of spells, which includes unique moves like Kamikazee and Kaclang
  • Banjo-Kazooie would still have how their neutral special becomes a different kind of projectile depending on if you tap or hold B, Wonderwing being invincible to everything that isn't a grab, and how Grenade Egg is a projectile shot out from behind in more ways than one
  • Terry would still have his five specials and spotdodge attack
  • Steve would still have...pretty much everything he has except for Mine, I guess
  • Sephiroth would still have the unique properties of his Shadow Flare and Scintilla specials, and his long katana.
  • Kazuya would still have a large number of tilts, including down tilts that change depending on if you're standing or crouching, EWGF, Hellsweep...
 

Laniv

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Do you think they should re-use Peach’s down special for Toad? They both had their first playable appearance in the same game so the vegetable toss does make sense for both of them.
Less than ideal, but I'd take it. I personally would go for a ? block move, where he hits a block and receives a random item from a pool a five, or the command grab like Louie G. mentioned. As long as it's not a complete carbon copy of Peach's move, I'm game
 

Shinuto

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well we know that’s utter rubbish going by certain inclusions
Only Shantae can whip people with her hair lol.
Only Phoenix Wright can shout at people with courtroom banter
Only KOS-MOS has the kind of long range weaponry as a heavy zoner type.
 

Diddy Kong

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Toad and Paper Mario are in very similar situations, where they're both in a very good position going into the next Smash game, but also they've been in a very good position going into the next Smash game more or less every single time and nothing has ever come out of it.
Toad I think could have done better than you'd expect in the Ballot, since he got one of those "consolation prizes", having gotten a larger role in Peach's moveset, but that's it.

Overall I'd probably bet on Geno and Waluigi.
Waluigi has the same problem as Toad and Paper Mario but he's now probably the most wanted Nintendo character in general, and for Geno it feels like the stars have finally aligned.

Pauline isn't very interesting imo.
With sheer popularity taken into account, yeah Waluigi and Geno stand amongst the most popular left. But they don't have the seniority of Toad, and I think it could go 50/50. A Mario newcomer is pretty much always guaranteed anyway. Geno is a hard one to predict thanks to Square, but as I always said, a Mario RPG remake might make it happen, and we got that.

Am just not too convinced about Waluigi yet. There's fan demand but he's been demanded since forever. I remember well back in the pre Brawl days, fan support was loud. But he hasn't been picked yet and outside of popularity I don't see huge merits to have him. He could be a funny character for sure, which is why am not opposed but... can't say he's my pick for sure.

As in newcomer predictions? I have some

1. Noah
2. Alear
3. Cranky Kong
4. Geno
5. Knuckles
6. Isaac
7. Monster Hunter
8. Ring Fit Trainer
9. Agent Howard
10. Chun Li
11. Impa
12. Bandana Dee
13. Dixie Kong
14. Rayman
15. Crash Bandicoot

With Echoes being:
Funky Kong
Shadow the Hedgehog
Felix for Isaac
Galactia Knight
Octoling
Hero of Time
 

SPEN18

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You're absolutely right, but that does still demonstrate a discouraging pattern.

Like, Rosalina and Bowser Jr. Rosalina had come off the heels of Mario Galaxy, she inspired Sakurai with a puppeteer mechanic. Bowser Jr is kind of a big deal, maybe even moreso nowadays, but he was added largely due to his flexibility with the Koopalings. Plant... kind of its own beast, but it strides the line between recognizable character / surprising addition that Sakurai needed at that moment. We can understand why these characters were chosen first, but then we can also understand why a number of other characters may be chosen next.

Waluigi is the irrefutable king of fan demand right now. Paper Mario has had kind of a renaissance on Switch, is the main protagonist of a major spinoff, has a number of unique mechanics easily imaginable in Smash... paper theming, timed attacks, etc. Fringe picks like King Boo and Pauline have seen notable boosts in prominence recently, and have feasibly unique hooks worth exploring if Sakurai feels compelled to do so. All of these guys have had "movement", their stock has went up - Toad hasn't really had much "movement" aside from continuing his role as one of Mario's most prominent characters. Maybe that waiting game will eventually pay off, but Smash seems more concerned with characters who are progressing in a notable way. Not entirely fair to Toad, but that's how I see it.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that Sakurai doesn't view Toad as a high priority. Simply put, the (fun)guy has been a viable addition since nearly the beginning, has been a consistent force in the Mario games and has been passed over every single time. Of course anything more explicit about Toad - like Sakurai "not seeing him as a fighter" - is speculative. We can't really say for sure why he's been a low priority all this time, but it's at least accurate to say that he is. If special circumstances snubbed Toad out before, there's a pretty reasonable chance newly manifested circumstances will do it again. So that's mostly the logic I'm operating under.

It's certainly not a rule of cool thing on my end... I mean, if you know my tastes, I'm really the furthest thing from that. And I think Toad would be a good and long-deserved addition, it's just hard for me not to be a bit pessimistic about the way things have gone for the last two decades.
Yeah I don't blame people for being more down on his chances, as it's certainly an oddity that he's never been added and we have never been left with a concrete explanation as to why; I just think a lot of the arguments lean too much on baseless assumptions of what Sakurai personally thinks of the character and his potential.

You point out all the other outstanding Mario characters which could still possibly get in over Toad, but I feel like that's simply illustrative of what very well could be the actual principal reason we don't have Toad: Mario reps form a very deep and crowded category. Again we can go thru the whole history of it and there's really not much to hold over Toad's head; maybe Rosa's spot could've been his, for example, but she was peaking at a very opportune time. We don't really have a character quite in Rosa's spot right now, unless you're really buying into Pauline or King Boo, so that could be a good sign for Toad.

I think Waluigi is the most likely Mario rep because of the popularity, but I think without any more concrete indication of why he hasn't made it in yet, Toad warrants a lot more traction as the second. Because on paper he's always made a lot of sense, and again most of the points against him are inconcrete. Paper Mario, King Boo, and Pauline all still feel more like the contrarian options, firmly on the radar but not the frontrunners.
 

RodNutTakin

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Alright, get ready for another long post. Quoted a lot of interesting replies and I'l do my best to try and respond to as much as I can here.
I mean... he really wasn't "Mario but faster" in SMB2 (and by extension, 3D World). He was that game's "hard mode" character, the same way Peach was the "easy mode". A fast and strong character, throwing items with all his might, but with poor jumps, which in a platform game, makes tough going get tougher.

And in Smash Bros, you can make that work! Toad could rush at the opponent, using, oh, say, a Poison Mushroom or a vegetable to cover his approach as he reaches his opponent and brings down the pain. (Hey, it works for Fox!) And there we have the groundwork for an archetype that Toad can fill: a small, speedy lightweight capable of dealing damage far outside his weight class, with poor ground jumps to balance it out. (And before you say that this sounds like Little Mac, Toad would actually be functional in the air.)
A couple of people after your post suggested Toad being a speedy, lightweight grappler type, which I will concede is a good base to start off with here. While I do not see it as the hook for Toad as a fighter, I won't deny that I think that's how he should feel on a basic level if he gets in Smash. As I've said, the main problem in my head with leaning too much into SMB2 as inspiration is that Peach got to the Turnip stuff first. Not that Toad can't have a variation of the technique still, but the problem remains in that it can't be his primary hook as a fighter.

Ignoring my "actually, they're different characters 🤓" instinct, we can work with this too! While I will admit there's some (a lot) of overlap with Steve, who says they have to play the same? Who says he has to use the Super Pickax exactly like the Hammer? Based on the way he acts in his game, the way I see it, Captain Toad would be as similar to Steve as Marth is to Ike. Where Steve is a bit on the lighter side, Captain Toad would be like Wario, his small frame belying heavy weight. Where Steve is a slow runner, Captain Toad could be, oh, Hero's speed. Where Steve struggles to conventionally convey a personality, Captain Toad is bursting with it from head to toe.
I guess? Truthfully I almost dismissed Treasure Tracker in my original post outright because Captain Toad and "Toad" are practically seperate identities at this point, but I felt it wouldn't be fair to not at least gloss over it, and go into more depth than just the surface-level criticism that the Captain can't jump. I wasn't even really thinking about comparing him to Steve, either, more just demonstrating an instance where a Toad is given a starring role, but paradoxically isn't allowed to do much that is truly unique to him.

This brings Isabelle to mind. A non-combatant, who explicitly says she doesn't like confrontation? How would she fight?

But wait! Isabelle is an Animal Crossing character! By the nature of that series, she has to be a non-combatant! A fair point. But...

A character who helps you on your journey, giving you exposition and not much else, possibly giving you an item or two, is pretty much the role Sheik played in Ocarina of Time. And look, that character is a Smash Bros mainstay, a character that no one would dream of cutting.

Heck, that's kinda what Rosalina did in Galaxy: giving Mario exposition and access to the final battle once he collects enough Power Stars. And reading the storybook. (Yeah, she was in 3D World, but so was Toad!)

That is not a knock on Rosalina. I'm just saying she was in the same position you say that Toad is in.
Isabelle is a special case, in that she got in as a variant of Villager's play style. I don't think she would've made it as a fighter under any other circumstance, espcially if Sakurai had kept to his decision on not making the Villager a fighter, either.
As for the cases of Sheik and Rosalina, I'll admit that I probably should've been a bit more specific on how exactly Toad has served as an exposition/helper character; he's usually only there for the start of the game, and a lot of the time he doesn't really do much after telling you "hey Peach is captured, save her, here's what you gotta do to save her BTW". I haven't played Ocarina myself, but from what I understand, Sheik manages to be a key player throughout the Adult segment of that game even before she turns into Zelda, being recurring throughout that half of the game, instead of only appearing when you first reawaken as Adult Link and when she reveals herself to be Zelda. And even though Sheik doesn't do much in terms of direct action, her other actions and her design were likely enough for Sakurai to see appeal in making her a fighter; she fits the mold of a ninja archetype, down to her ability to disappear without a trace, on top of the inherently unique gimmick of transforming. While Sheik has lost the latter aspect as a hook, I imagine a mix of the character's popularity and being the first with the ninja archetype has been the thing keeping her on the lineup way after Ocarina's release. Going back to Toad, I'd say that besides getting a spin-off or a role as a unique playable party member, something that would also help him get a more upfront identity would be letting him actively help the other protagonists in the main story. He doesn't have to directly charge into battle, but anything that would make him more of an active helper, instead of someone who gets Mario's ball rolling and then sits on the sidelines, would go a long way IMO.
Rosalina was likely a similar case on having a design that lent itself to creativity in Sakurai's mind. What we do know is that Rosalina being partially defined by her relationship with the Lumas is what led to Sakurai going with the puppet fighter gimmick, and I imagine her also being a space traveller is what made it easy to fill in the blanks with the rest of her moveset (i.e. making her other moves space-themed). Rosalina's special moves also re-iterate the point of Toad not having any singular Mario game to immediately define himself with, as Rosalina's specials primarily make use of techniques the player could perform in Galaxy (Shooting Star Bits, using the star cursor to attract items, making use of Launch Stars etc.)

This was Daisy. I know that she was an easy bake clone, but this was Daisy.
Even though I've definitely seen Daisy detractors back in my day, I'd argue even back then it wasn't as consistent as some of the ire I've seen Toad draw towards him. The only real consistent complaints I remember about Daisy as a character were "her voice is annoying" and sometimes "her fans are pretty nutso". It pales in comparison to Toad becoming the scapegoat for arguements over character designs in Mario spinoffs, on top of the complaints of him being useless, sometimes obstructive, and (ironically enough) having an annoying voice. Even if Daisy is only a clone, that's not because she had a sizeable hatedom or anything, it's only because Sakurai felt that it would be the practical route for making her a fighter, since she didn't have much in terms of unique material that made her stand out in a way that complements her as a character. If Daisy really was a controversial character, I don't think she would've been given the Echo role. It absolutely feels like Sakurai throwing a bone for those who like her.
Waluigi absolutely used to get a lot of flack as well, for the sake of comparison. He still does get a bit of detraction, but overall the public perception of him seems to have improved heavily over the last couple of decades. It definitely jogs the noggin on how a fourth-wheel spinoff character has gone from mostly disliked or dismissed, to being genuinely liked as an "underdog" character clamored for appearances besides said spinoffs, while a major player like Toad still has a lukewarm reception from fans.

Is this not what happened with Captain Toad? A member of a species who broke out of the mold of being "weak and useless" to go on a big adventure of their own? That's kinda what happened with Captain Toad.
Not really. Besides my point of Captain Toad not being able to fight back without temporary items/power-ups in his main game, he doesn't have anywhere near the same amount of growth that Bandanna Waddle Dee did. Captain Toad is depicted as being pretty cowardly and landing himself in danger a lot, even in spite of the few times he actually helps out the player in some of the games he appears in. Treasure Tracker is really the only time he stands up for himself, when fighting Wingo, and even then he gets briefly kidnapped by the big bird during part of that game's story. Other than that, the only other time I can think of any Toad outright standing up for himself is Wario's Woods, which isn't exactly a paragon of storytelling, even amongst Mario titles.
Bandanna Waddle Dee in Revenge of the King is depicted as being absolutely terrified of having to fight Kirby without Dedede at his side, and only does so out of absolute loyalty to the king. Besides being 180'd into being a competent and capable fighter in Return to Dreamland, BWD has overall shedded the initial cowardly and loyal-to-a-fault characteristics he started with. He actively supports Kirby in the 3DS platformers, went against Dedede when he got too obsessed with defeating Kirby in Battle Royale, and by Star Allies and Forgotten Land, he is explicitly defined as being courageous compared to normal Waddle Dees. In contrast, even though Captain Toad has become a standout member of his species, he's still portrayed as being cowardly and wildly varying in competence and feats.

You make a lot of good points, but I am one of Toad's strongest soldiers, and I will defend that little dude till the day I die
And I very much appreciate you taking the time to write out these responses to my post, and I definitely respect the hustle for Toad. I personally have Toadette as a pick I'd like to see myself. (I think she's actually done a bit more to define herself than normal Toad or Captain Toad have). I do apologize if I sound like I'm raining on Toad fans' parade at times with these posts, I have no ill will towards the character at all, but my gut feeling doesn't seem confident on him being next in line.
We don't exactly know the thought process. Was he not able to dance in Sakurai's head(this is always possible), was his role as Peach/Daisy's protector treated as the best option Sakurai can think of? Was it some other influence? Obviously we have other members of the Toad species who have some more clear abilities(Captain Toad being the most notable one, but you do have some from the RPG's who have a specific way they fight). And even then, Toad obviously has some unique properties from the games, though they aren't used much anyway. For the most part, he does what other characters do, but unlike Daisy, he's not the same bodyshape as another character to easily get him in. I'm aware many others can do the same(I.E. Waluigi, but he has a few uniquely known skills, but apparently not enough to help matters?), but Toad also has his own other moves in the Sports games that should be able to help figure out a cool moveset that isn't based around, say, Powerups as is(not that that's a bad idea either. Moreso, a unique moveset that encompasses his particular skills~).
I'll admit, my mind's a bit blank with trying to remember what stuff Toad has done in spinoffs. Only things I can remember right away is him summoning moving mushrooms for his special shots in Mario Sports Mix, and shooting spores in Smash. Would you be able to elaborate on some of the other techniques Toad and his species have been able to do in spinoffs?
I don't really think a lack of moveset potential is the issue with Toad. These elements have existed for some time now and have failed to inspire Sakurai to add him, so I generally agree with the sentiment that some new hook or a massive boost in fan demand are the main things that would put him on the map.

We've got a metric ton of fan movesets for Toad and they all work to some degree. He can use powerups, he can use a go kart, he can pull turnips or even kick around bombs. He could be Captain Toad, she could be Toadette. The varied potential is clear as day, but whether or not it takes precedent over other Mario characters who are either more vocally requested or have more compelling gameplay hooks and unique archetypes to fill.
I think your latter point on Toad having a bunch of fan movesets actually highlights the point of him lacking an immediate hook. While moveset versatility is always a good thing for a character, I could see a good reason for Toad's absence on the fighting roster being that Sakurai and co. don't see a clear-cut approach on what kind of moveset would fit Toad the best and do him good service as a character.
As far as Toad it feels like Sakurai is definitely waiting for either a strong fan push or some game inspiration in making the character dance in his head before the former gets into Smash.

I almost sort of wish games like had 3D World had designed powerups to have their own distinct quirks to the character (ie Fire Flower abilities behaving a bit differently for a Mario vs a Luigi). Had that happened, I wonder if Toad's particular features with them might have been just unique enough to warrant a Smash inclusion, as it would be his specific ice/propeller/boomerang abilities, not just the generic version.
Something like that would absolutely go a long way for Toad--if he had a unique set of power-ups in Wonder, for instance, that would let the game serve as a strong foundation for the rest of Toad's toolkit, much like how Rosalina's moveset has a foundation in the gameplay elements Galaxy introduced, and how Peach's playstyle has foundation in how she was like in Super Mario Bros. 2.
I remember one of the criteria for character selection in Sakurai's GDC slides was the following: "It's important to have something only that character can do."

I believe this is where Toad falls short. Whenever he's playable, he's always got the same moveset as Mario, sometimes being faster (and stronger in SMB2). Aside from that, he pretty much never displays any unique abilities.

I'd still enjoy a Toad moveset that focuses on powerups and the few unique things Toad has to offer, but I understand Sakurai may not see it that way. I'll also note that Toad's build is really distinct and we haven't seen anything similar to it yet.

Let's hope Sakurai saw Toadette's surge in popularity within Nintendo, alongside Peachette being featured as a selling point for the NSMBU port, and decided that a transforming/comeback character that goes from stubby mushroom to OP princess is worth it :)
Like I said above, I think Toadette actually has more going for her over Toad or Captain Toad, and I would actually be more inclined to compare her to Bandanna Waddle Dee as well, primarily because Toadette has escaped the "weak/useless/cowardly" stigma that most Toads fall under. She's been depicted as being much more active than the average Toad, to the point where sometimes she can even be rather prideful of her work at times, and other times she can be a bit headstrong. Her being able to turn into Peachette was absolutely a breakout moment IMO--while Peachette may end up being something Nintendo won't really revisit going forward, the fact that Toadette was allowed to vary in playstyle in a mainline Mario game before Toad himself says a lot about how both characters may be percieved internally. Personally, I hope Nintendo continues to push Toadette as being to Toads what BWD is to Waddle Dees, and I would honestly take Waluigi being snubbed by her next game in grace (as unlikely as I think it will happen currently).
Toad's thing is that he has a big, bouncy head. Even if you ignore his other abilites, you can create a fun moveset out of this alone.

Captain Toad has even more stuff that's unique to him, too. I'm absolutely sure either him or regular Toad can stand on their own if they ever get included.
Toad making use of his mushroom head would certainly be a unique angle, but I feel like that would be something I'd want the Mario series proper to elaborate on first before I'd want to discuss on how that could translate to Smash.
 

fogbadge

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Isabelle is a special case, in that she got in as a variant of Villager's play style. I don't think she would've made it as a fighter under any other circumstance, espcially if Sakurai had kept to his decision on not making the Villager a fighter
i think you greatly under estimate her popularity

Like I said above, I think Toadette actually has more going for her over Toad or Captain Toad, and I would actually be more inclined to compare her to Bandanna Waddle Dee as well, primarily because Toadette has escaped the "weak/useless/cowardly" stigma that most Toads fall under.
just cause you think he has that stigma doesn't mean the rest of us do
 

dream1ng

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With sheer popularity taken into account, yeah Waluigi and Geno stand amongst the most popular left. But they don't have the seniority of Toad, and I think it could go 50/50.
Rosalina and Bowser Jr didn't have the seniority of Toad either, and they got in two games ago.

Am just not too convinced about Waluigi yet. There's fan demand but he's been demanded since forever. I remember well back in the pre Brawl days, fan support was loud. But he hasn't been picked yet and outside of popularity I don't see huge merits to have him. He could be a funny character for sure, which is why am not opposed but... can't say he's my pick for sure.
It's not that Waluigi has been ignored so much as the Mario series has had many big, popularly requested characters, and they opted for the ones with mainline relevance, as Smash has always treated those with more priority.

As other candidates fell away, and Waluigi supported gradually shifted from largely troll and meme-based to largely sincere, his popularity and prevalence now makes him one of the leading candidates. Now, for the Mario series, it's mostly spin-off characters like him, Paper Mario or Geno. Toad is there, but he's likely being held back by how Sakurai perceives him.

And Pauline is an option too, but at this point Waluigi is the most requested first-party character, so to opt for a recurring and mainline but less prolific option like her over Waluigi would be a contentious, albeit possible, choice.
 
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Laniv

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I just think it's a little funny that people suggest Toadette as an alternative to Toad for uniqueness, and the idea for that is having Toadette transform into an already existing character by means of a comeback mechanic.
 
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superprincess

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I just think it's a little funny that people suggest Toadette as an alternative to Toad for uniqueness, and the idea for that is having Toadette transform into an already existing character by means of a comeback mechanic.
At least it's an exclusive ability.

There's also the wtf factor. I don't think anyone wants Peachette unironically, except me.
 
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