Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

Honestly I prefer the Propeller Mushroom over the block for the simple reason that Toad's a mushroom lol. So stylistically it makes sense for him to use the Mushroom version.

I dislike the block powerups in general. They're aesthetically displeasing.

I believe this is where Toad falls short. Whenever he's playable, he's always got the same moveset as Mario

An issue solved by including Captain Toad moves in his moveset.

Well, that doesn't really mean he's more associated with the powerups than the other characters, does it?

Sure it does. That's like saying an apple salesman isn't more associated with apples than someone that eats apples.

I don't think anyone wants Peachette unironically, except me.

I unironically want the Super Crown to be an Item.

Everyone is Peach!

 

[Ivander]

I unironically want the Super Crown to be an Item.

Everyone is Peach!

Except Luigi.

 

[superprincess]

An issue solved by including Captain Toad moves in his moveset.

It's been established that "Toad" and Captain Toad are two separate entities. If you're gonna have Captain Toad stuff, might as well make him Captain Toad. Also, I'm not sure what Captain Toad would offer to the normal Toad in terms of moveset potential.

Sure it does. That's like saying an apple salesman isn't more associated with apples than someone that eats apples.

When you think of a Super Mushroom, is the first thing that comes to mind really Toad selling it? No. It's Mario taking the mushroom and growing.

I unironically want the Super Crown to be an Item.

Everyone is Peach!

Yikes. Waste of resources. It'd be impossible to create that many models and animations. Also the Super Crown is only usable by Toadette in NSMBU Deluxe.

 

[Laniv]

I'm just saying, there are ways to make Toadette unique, but having her turn into Peachette is... not a great one. If anything, Peachette is firmly Final Smash material.

I unironically want the Super Crown to be an Item.

Everyone is Peach!

What would happen when Peach picks one up? Does she turn into Peach Squared? A literal, real-life peach?

 

[HyperSomari64]

If anything, Peachette is firmly Final Smash material.

I wish Transformation Final Smashes returned.

What would happen when Peach picks one up? Does she turn into Peach Squared? A literal, real-life peach?

Empress Peach, basically the chubby Peach from THAT Super Mario World ROM hack, but with the most luxurious and detailed dress.

 

[superprincess]

I'm just saying, there are ways to make Toadette unique, but having her turn into Peachette is... not a great one. If anything, Peachette is firmly Final Smash material.

They kinda fumbled by emphasizing the "Peach" part of the design. If Peachette's design leaned more towards "humanoid Toadette" I could actually see her being a frontrunner for Smash. A small mushroom girl with a magical anime princess transformation sounds fun, it'd help if the design in question wasn't a blatant Peach ripoff.

In any case, I wrote a sort of extensive analysis on how Toadette/Peachette could work in a unique way in Smash. I'll resend it if you're interested ♡

 

[Opossum]

I dislike the block powerups in general. They're aesthetically displeasing.

An issue solved by including Captain Toad moves in his moveset.

Sure it does. That's like saying an apple salesman isn't more associated with apples than someone that eats apples.

I unironically want the Super Crown to be an Item.

Everyone is Peach!

Yeah, over all I DEFINITELY prefer the suits and hats over the blocks. Though I do like the cannon block one, if only because I can make jokes about head cannons.

Though I do recognize that the blocks probably served a practical purpose, in that it cuts down on needing to model unique outfits for every character who can use the powerup. But still.

 

[Noipoi]

Yeah, over all I DEFINITELY prefer the suits and hats over the blocks. Though I do like the cannon block one, if only because I can make jokes about head cannons.

Though I do recognize that the blocks probably served a practical purpose, in that it cuts down on needing to model unique outfits for every character who can use the powerup. But still.

The head cannon should be an item in Smash

 

[HyperSomari64]

Except Luigi.
View attachment 392026

Also the Super Crown is only usable by Toadette in NSMBU Deluxe.

Nah, let them make Bowsette canon

 

[ScrubReborn]

Nah, let them make Bowsette canon

Oh, yes

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Let's not and say we didn't.

 

[Ivander]

Oh, yes

View attachment 392027

I thought Nintendon't what Sega does?

 

[DarthEnderX]

Yikes. Waste of resources. It'd be impossible to create that many models and animations.

Why would you need to create animations? Everyone is just Peach in a different outfit.

That's like, less work than Kirby's Neutral+B.

What would happen when Peach picks one up? Does she turn into Peach Squared? A literal, real-life peach?

Free Final Smash!

They kinda fumbled by emphasizing the "Peach" part of the design.

It has to. How else can she serve as Peach's body double and draw assassinations.

 

[Wonder Smash]

I thought Nintendon't what Sega does?

I think it was SEGA does what Nintendon't.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Rosalina and Bowser Jr didn't have the seniority of Toad either, and they got in two games ago.

Hugely important characters tho. A better argument would be Piranha Plant made it in last time over Toad. Then again, Piranha Plant also made it in over Waluigi and Geno, who where also just as highly requested. See it works both ways.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hugely important characters tho. A better argument would be Piranha Plant made it in last time over Toad. Then again, Piranha Plant also made it in over Waluigi and Geno, who where also just as highly requested. See it works both ways.

"Sakurai selected Piranha Plant because a game full of protagonists and major players isn’t terribly interesting. A lineup full of plain-old heroes is boring. Just like Mr. Game & Watch, R.O.B., and Duck Hunt, Piranha Plant brings something special and unique to the roster. He anticipates Piranha Plant to be a rather unconventional fighter."

Sakurai Tells More Details About Smash Ultimate’s Development

Sakurai discusses Ultimate’s character selection, Smash as an e-sport and more!

sourcegaming.info

Yeah, nope. Toad and Geno are protagonists of sorts and for that matter, major characters in some games(even Waluigi can say this as he's the starter villain of one game, though he was already an AT before PP would become DLC, so that didn't matter anyway timing-wise).

None of those could've made it in over PP. They didn't fit a very particular criteria Sakurai was going for. At most, Waluigi could arguably be this, but he's had some roles in a few spin-offs that are a bit higher than others, so that muddies things. Toad and Geno have been main characters respectively, so they obviously cannot count.

So again, the only ones who made it in over Toad were already in a very unique spot where it made sense; Mario, Bowser, Peach, Luigi(again, being a clone is not as special of a case as the other ones, as he would've been in Melee then, whether more unique or not. But you can still throw him into the special category either way), and Rosalina & Luma.

Meanwhile, you had Bowser Jr.(only possible due to the Koopa Clown Car, and almost didn't make it in anyway), Luigi(still a clone arrival first, if you think he better fits here), Dr. Mario(clone), and Daisy(clone), and Piranha Plant(specifically neither a protagonist or major character in a game).

Among the 9, only 4 or 5 out of 9 really kept him from getting in, and even then, only Rosalina & Luma even could count as someone who got in over him. Toad was never getting in over Bowser, Mario, Peach, (and Luigi). Rosalina & Luma could've gone either way in comparison, since she was a much smaller character than the other 4, respectively. You could also throw Yoshi in if you really want to, since he's somewhat arbitrarily separate compared to WarioWare and Donkey Kong Country which are blatantly separate series. And Yoshi had multiple of his own games, so of course he was going to beat Toad out for a spot(that, and Yoshi had skills quite unique to him while Toad, like it or not, didn't really have at the time. Peach still does, even if it's something like a Frying Pan strike, but also, her hovering gave her unique aerials that don't work outside of it).

Special Cases have unique criteria that other characters simply cannot have, so blaming all the Mario cast is very silly and doesn't make any sense. When in reality only one character really got in over Toad in a situation he could even legitimately be added. At best.

------------

That said, all Sakurai has to do is come with a cool idea for what he wants to see out of Toad and the issue is solved. It's not hard to change Peach and Daisy's stuff to something else. You can make the throws the same as Melee/Brawl/4(which for the most part, is just no Toad, but with minor tweaks), and you literally need a new neutral B or to just replace it with an appropriate character.

 

[fogbadge]

I'm just saying, there are ways to make Toadette unique, but having her turn into Peachette is... not a great one. If anything, Peachette is firmly Final Smash material.

i think peachette would be a waste of a FS. toadette has better options than just becoming peach

 

[Opossum]

Hugely important characters tho. A better argument would be Piranha Plant made it in last time over Toad. Then again, Piranha Plant also made it in over Waluigi and Geno, who where also just as highly requested. See it works both ways.

I love Rosalina, but she was important in a single game prior to her inclusion. Besides Galaxy 1, she had Mario Kart Wii and a completion bonus cameo in Galaxy 2.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

Yeah, Rosalina isn't and never was as "important" as Toad. I'd argue that Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings also aren't.
Toad is everywhere in almost every single Mario game and has been playable dozens of times. He's a huuuuge part of the series' identity.

What Rosalina and Bowser Jr. have is probably a stronger individual identity though, and that definitely helped them.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Yeah, Rosalina isn't and never was as "important" as Toad. I'd argue that Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings also aren't.
Toad is everywhere in almost every single Mario game and has been playable dozens of times. He's a huuuuge part of the series' identity.

What Rosalina and Bowser Jr. have is probably a stronger individual identity though, and that definitely helped them.

That, and Sakurai had a clear vision for what the moveset could be. Nobody else really could work the Lumas in that way, and the Koopa Clown Car, as I noted above, is what made Bowser Jr. stand out(but also allowed for unique costumes).

Toad is definitely the bigger character, but bigger has no meaning if you don't have a specific skillset to easily make a moveset around. If you don't dance in Sakurai's head(and obviously isn't a clone of sorts), that makes it that much harder to get in. Hell, not even Pac-Man danced in his head when he was considered for Brawl. It took Bandai-Namco's involvement to figure out something. And unlike Toad, there was a lot more specific skills to him thanks to various games that don't have other playable characters. That's saying something too.

That said, give it another game, and Sakurai may have figured out an idea anyway. That also said, "skills to work with" is not the same as "putting it together into a coherent moveset". Toad may not at all need a particular unique skill to him alone, but the second part is far more important. If Sakurai can see a way to make him dance in his head, despite using a common power-up as a bit of a basis(for an example), then it can work out. A character archtype can also be easier to think of a moveset for, since it's very easy to make it flow in your mind~

 

[SharkLord]

Yeah, Rosalina isn't and never was as "important" as Toad. I'd argue that Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings also aren't.
Toad is everywhere in almost every single Mario game and has been playable dozens of times. He's a huuuuge part of the series' identity.

What Rosalina and Bowser Jr. have is probably a stronger individual identity though, and that definitely helped them.

Yeah, individual identity might be Toad's biggest hangup. Are we talking about Toad the character, or A Toad, one of a species? There's usually a Toad designated as the Toad, but it never seems consistent on who that Toad is. SMB2, the cartoons, and the movie have a Red Toad as part of the main cast, the NSMB series and Super Mario Bros. Wonder have both Blue and Yellow Toad, and Super Mario 3D World only has Blue Toad. Yeah, we have Piranha Plant, but it was specifically chosen as an oddball pick because it was a common mook and not a major character.

I suppose the closest comparison we have to other popular requests is Bandana Waddle Dee, but Bandana Dee has consistently been framed as a very specific individual Waddle Dee. Yeah, any other Dee could wear the bandana, but BWD has been the only Waddle Dee who's actually shown with one. He's given a distinguishing identity and attributes. The Toads haven't really had that, unless you count Captain Toad and Toadette.

 

[Gengar84]

Yeah, individual identity might be Toad's biggest hangup. Are we talking about Toad the character, or A Toad, one of a species? There's usually a Toad designated as the Toad, but it never seems consistent on who that Toad is. SMB2, the cartoons, and the movie have a Red Toad as part of the main cast, the NSMB series and Super Mario Bros. Wonder have both Blue and Yellow Toad, and Super Mario 3D World only has Blue Toad. Yeah, we have Piranha Plant, but it was specifically chosen as an oddball pick because it was a common mook and not a major character.

I suppose the closest comparison we have to other popular requests is Bandana Waddle Dee, but Bandana Dee has consistently been framed as a very specific individual Waddle Dee. Yeah, any other Dee could wear the bandana, but BWD has been the only Waddle Dee who's actually shown with one. He's given a distinguishing identity and attributes. The Toads haven't really had that, unless you count Captain Toad and Toadette.

I think Yoshi has that same exact issue being both a singular character and a general species. The biggest difference is Yoshi has had several of his own platformer games to pull a moveset from where Toad generally has all the same abilities as every other character in the games where he’s playable.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think Yoshi has that same exact issue being both a singular character and a general species. The biggest difference is Yoshi has had several of his own platformer games to pull a moveset from where Toad generally has all the same abilities as every other character in the games where he’s playable.

It might help that the core Green Yoshi didn't have alternate colors to represent himself either. Toad, the main one, sometimes has different colorings, so the identity is less clear. Sure, it's not an issue to use the various generic colors the species has anyway for costumes(or references to other characters anyway), but even there was no confusion of which was the main Yoshi overall. And even then, it didn't much matter because there was enough games, as you said, to pull abilities from that were clear enough. Though it might be more that it was easy to make a coherent moveset out of it, similar to what I said above, something not every character he could figure out(like Pac-Man).

The moveset is still an issue, of course, but they do have a difference in that factor. Albeit, the main Toad has a unique name from his species in Japan(where ironically, Kamek does not, but the dubbed version fixes that instead. They're the opposite ends of the spectrum, heh). So it's not like there's confusion over that in general for Sakurai to know which is the main Toad or not. Nor was Captain Toad confused with the main Toad in the Japanese stuff either. That's an English error, something that the creator of Captain Toad(the character) made clear. He's just a member of the species.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I love Rosalina, but she was important in a single game prior to her inclusion. Besides Galaxy 1, she had Mario Kart Wii and a completion bonus cameo in Galaxy 2.

Still a better mainline role than Geno, and Waluigi never had anything like that. So I still feel it's a much better choice. Especially considering the move set they went with. We haven't really had a similar sort of character appear in mainline Mario games ever since either.

I'll have to admit tho that Toad indeed might be cursed forever in his faith regarding Smash. I think from all the prospects named, Geno might be the most likely. Cause Square is already involved, and Waluigi at a second place cause people just never would stop the support, similar to Ridley. Pure fan demand would push them in probably. I just prefer Toad.

 

[Opossum]

Still a better mainline role than Geno, and Waluigi never had anything like that. So I still feel it's a much better choice. Especially considering the move set they went with. We haven't really had a similar sort of character appear in mainline Mario games ever since either.

I...wasn't talking about Waluigi or Geno there. Just Toad. Main series vs spinoffs isn't a dichotomy that matters when it comes to Mario. Again, Mario Kart outsells the main series most of the time.

My point was that it wasn't Rosalina's importance that got her a spot on the roster, because outside of Galaxy 1, she wasn't important. Toad was playable in SMB2, NSMBW, and Wario's Woods, but it ultimately didn't matter as importance wasn't what was holding him back. I'm not going to say for certain what WAS holding him back, but it clearly wasn't "importance." Maybe it was the lack of a hook, maybe it was his place as a part of Peach's moveset, maybe it was the lack of individual identity, and maybe it was something else entirely. Who could say?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I'd argue that Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings also aren't.

I'd actually argue that Jr. was/is roughly as important as Toad. At the time of inclusion, Bowser Jr. had already cemented himself as a mainstay in both 3D and 2D platformers and was an ever present character in spinoffs. He clearly took the role of Bowser's sidekick. He hadn't been around as long as Toad, but he had more direct impact on the plots.

Both are a part of Mario's core identity. Rosalina wasn't at the time of inclusion.

 

[fogbadge]

I'd actually argue that Jr. was/is roughly as important as Toad. At the time of inclusion, Bowser Jr. had already cemented himself as a mainstay in both 3D and 2D platformers and was an ever present character in spinoffs. He clearly took the role of Bowser's sidekick. He hadn't been around as long as Toad, but he had more direct impact on the plots.

Both are a part of Mario's core identity. Rosalina wasn't at the time of inclusion.

yeah I remember thinking it was between toad and jr during the smash 4 days. then it was Rosalina

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It kind of makes you wonder.

Is Rosalina somewhat superfluous?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Though that said, I also said "bigger" character, not more important specifically(but I should've read that clearer too. I also was tired when I typed that, so apologies). I can understand that feeling for Bowser Jr., since his roles were nowhere near what the main Toad had, but yeah, they're pretty on par in practice. Rosalina didn't hit that at the time, true.

Either way, based upon my earlier categorization, that would at most mean... 2 characters beat Toad out. That's pretty little.

It kind of makes you wonder.

Is Rosalina somewhat superfluous?

I'd say no. She jumped up in roles pretty fast. She's not as big as some, but you don't need to be. She's a memorable and fun character, and that's enough, imo.

 

[Opossum]

It kind of makes you wonder.

Is Rosalina somewhat superfluous?

Not at all. She's a character who made an incredible first impression and is still very well liked almost two decades later.

(It's amazing what you can do with a character when you actually let them have some sort of story, but alas...)

 

[fogbadge]

It kind of makes you wonder.

Is Rosalina somewhat superfluous?

I hope not. She’s a good character

 

[Oracle Link]

Delete this!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Delete this!

Never!

 

[DarthEnderX]

Is Rosalina somewhat superfluous?

Ya.

Delete this!

DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Not at all. She's a character who made an incredible first impression and is still very well liked almost two decades later.

I wonder how many other characters are like that. Where their first appearance is so strong, it carried them into other ones even they weren't meant to be a reoccurring character.

I think Shadow may be one of the more well known examples of that.

 

[ScrubReborn]

It kind of makes you wonder.

Is Rosalina somewhat superfluous?

In a general sense or a Smash sense?

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I wonder how many other characters are like that. Where their first appearance is so strong, it carried them into other ones even they weren't meant to be a reoccurring character.

I think Shadow may be one of the more well known examples of that.

The entire FF7 cast.

 

[Will]

I wonder how many other characters are like that. Where their first appearance is so strong, it carried them into other ones even they weren't meant to be a reoccurring character.

Pauline is the Rosalina of this decade, imo. Odyssey reinvented her to a point where there’s no going back.

 

[Borskaboska]

I decided to make a Captain Toad move set based on what has been said in this thread.

Character Information: Captain Toad is small, fast, and heavy. I think he'd lean into his camping, outdoorsy aesthetic, but he's also a goof that constantly gets himself into trouble. Some of his moves would enemies attacking him and CT dodging out of the way. Like a Conkdor pecking at Toad and happens to hit the opponent in the process.

Neutral B: Rummage
Captain Toad always has something to show you when you find him in mario games. He digs through his back for an item, which he pulls out at random and chucks. He pulls out better items if he is losing, like lucarios aura. When he pulls out an item, he can 'save' it by shielding before he throws it, to guarantee that it will be the item he pulls out next time.
Items:
Coin (Heal 1-2 percent), Mushroom, Poison Mushroom, Banana, Bullet Bill, Blue Shell, Link's Boomarang, Jr's Cannonball, Samus's Missile, Yoshi's Egg, Dedede's Gordo, Pikachu's Thunderjolt, Ness's PK Flash, Falco's Reflector.

Side B: Pack Swing
He spins around his backpack, knocking it into his opponents. He can make it more powerful by mashing left and right before using it. He gets a little dizzy after.

Up B: Camp Fire
He sets up a campfire in front of him (it fails in mid air). The fire stays on the ground for a few seconds, damaging opponents that touch it. Over time the fire shrinks and dies out, until it puffs and disappears. CT can feed the fire by attacking it.

Down B: Pluck / Charge Jump
When used on the ground, he crouches and builds up energy for as long as B is held, and when the button is released he leaps into the air bashing opponents with his head.
In midair it functions the same, but if an opponent is below him he picks them up and holds them above his head for as long as B is held. After a few seconds the opponent can break out, but before then CT can still walk around and jump, chucking them when B is released in whatever direction is held.

Final Smash: Toad Brigade
The toad brigade show up in their mushroom ship, but they suck at flying so they crash into the opponent.

 

[Garteam]

It kind of makes you wonder.

Is Rosalina somewhat superfluous?

I'll be honest, Rosalina was always a weird pick that really shouldn't be used as much, if any, indication of what fighters we'll get in the future.

Rosalina was a major supporting character from a single mainline game and an increasingly prominent spin-off character with no demonstrated combat abilities in a series with a lot of potential Smash candidates. She was basically the Mario version of someone like Midna or Magalor at the time of her inclusion. Normally, this is not the type of character to get into Smash.

However, Rosalina got into Smash because Sakurai essentially invented a novel gimmick for her wholesale. Sakurai reinvented what the character did to fit a more general fighting game archetype. While future characters could get in this way, I wouldn't bet on it for two reasons.

First, Sakurai seems a lot more concerned about making sure characters match their source material than he was a decade ago. Incineroar is probably the closest thing that Ultimate had to a Rosalina in terms of ignoring source material in favour of modeling him after fighting game tropes, but turning Incineroar into Zangief is a lot less of a thematic curveball than making Rosalina into Devo from HftF.

Second, while we can all envision fun archetypes that potential characters could fulfill, there's no guarantee Sakurai will see this same potential or choose to pursue it. I know a couple of people were pitching Funky Kong as a serious potential newcomer on the grounds he could have a unique, surfboard-based moveset. The problem with that argument is we have no real way of knowing if Sakurai would envision a similar moveset for Funky Kong and, even if he does, whether that moveset will blow him away enough to actually include Funky.

The human imagination is a wonderful thing that can conjure up some pretty one-of-a-kind ideas. But that's the rub, it's unlikely that two imaginations will generate the same interpretation. We can all think of cool, novel movesets for our favourites, but those don't mean much if Sakurai doesn't have that same vision and there aren't strong, external reasons to consider the character (e.g. popularity, relevance, accessibility, etc.)