Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

Which translates to it’ll definitely keep happening forever. Obviously

The only way to guarantee that it won't happen...is to stop asking for it.

So telling us to just accept it is a waste of breath. Because we're not going to, nor should we.

 

[Noipoi]

The only way to guarantee that it won't happen...is to stop asking for it.

So telling us to just accept it is a waste of breath. Because we're not going to, nor should we.

Look man there’s no need to grab the soapbox, at the end of the day I don’t really care if you don’t want any cuts in any more Smash games. It’s an understandable standpoint.

I just think the incessant insistence on it, at even the slightest hint that the next game may not have every single character, no matter how big or how small…is funny

 

[DarthEnderX]

Kraid is a case of people confusing appearing in multiple games for actually being important. Kraids a nice familiar face, but he ain't important. He's just a recurring boss. The closest thing of anything really noteworthy he does was show up as a Zombie fusion for Dreads endgame, which was frankly kinda random.

Making Kraid playable would be the equivalent of making Whisky Woods or Kracko playable, I mean yeah you could, but why would you?

Smash already has the perfect format for characters like this.

Bosses.

I just think the incessant insistence on it, at even the slightest hint that the next game may not have every single character, no matter how big or how small…is funny

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

There is no way they will be able to keep every character forever. It's fine to dislike it, but it does get grating to constantly put it in people's faces. Don't worry about it. It sucks if you lose your character, but moaning about it doesn't help anyone. Just say your piece and move on.

Besides, you can always make a blog and rant if you got a lot to say. Important part is to remember is that it's just a game with limited resources and time. Ultimate was a special case to begin with. It's not a normal expectation for "everyone is here forever" in any fighting franchise. Smash was never different. The actual oddest time was only Brawl, and only because it was fairly early on in the franchise. Plus, you had issues with people thinking some replaced others(which only happened one time anyway, with Toon Link actually replacing Young Link, though as we know, they aren't just a graphical upgrade like Ganondorf, Zelda, Sheik, and Link were. Yes, they now resembled their GameCube counterparts, but still).

The cuts were also more of a unique case; most were coming back bar 2 at best till the development went awry. Meanwhile 4 didn't have that same factor, as some just were not possible thanks to the 3DS, and some were cut due to the state of their franchise otherwise(Wolf and Lucas, with only one returning as DLC). Smash Ultimate's actual tagline is "Everyone is Here". That means the tagline is specific to the game. Naturally it's not going to be a repeated tagline. Even if we get another game where somehow they can get all returned(including through DLC), it wouldn't use the same one. It's a very special case.

Basically? The same thing won't happen. This doesn't mean the next game "must have cuts" either. It means it's in a different position. Characters are very expensive to license, and it took multiple years to get that. Some of the 13 DLC characters could become base, sure. Some are in better positions otherwise(Hero no longer has as hard of licensing of music alone), and some being 1st party makes it easy. Whereas others are definitely more difficult(like Sephiroth and Sora), and other base game characters don't have the same situation(Cloud may have solely been in Ultimate base just because he was able to be negotiated for both games at the right time. But this does not exist anymore. On the other hand, if development started early enough, Sora could be in that position, but it's pretty unlikely he wouldn't be DLC anyway, since that's heavily how SE likes to use the character. That doesn't mean it's impossible, but there's no good evidence it's likely).

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

View attachment 391266

Look man there’s no need to grab the soapbox, at the end of the day I don’t really care if you don’t want any cuts in any more Smash games. It’s an understandable standpoint.

I just think the incessant insistence on it, at even the slightest hint that the next game may not have every single character, no matter how big or how small…is funny

Unrelated, but something I can't unsee that now I'm making you all see.

Piplup has a crown on its face.

 

[Noipoi]

Unrelated, but something I can't unsee that now I'm making you all see.

Piplup has a crown on its face.

Well the whole line is based on royalty, so it fits

Little design details like that are part of why I love Pokemon.

 

[Zerp]

Making Kraid playable would be the equivalent of making Whisky Woods or Kracko playable, I mean yeah you could, but why would you?

I mean, true, I wouldn't make Whispy Woods or Kracko playable either personally... because there's only room for one giant boss-sized Kirby character and his name is Void Termina!!! /s



Okay okay, I'll be honest, it's only a half "/s". Give me any position of power over Smash and I would unironically try to make Void a playable character lol

This gave me a laugh, but knowing Nintendo, something like this might happen in Echoes of Wisdom.

Spoiler

Obviously, she's going to save him, but similar to how in the Super Mario Odyssey final battle, Mario used Cappy to possess Bowser to carry Peach out of the rooms that were breaking down, I can also see Zelda having to copy Link during the Final Battle to fight against whatever trick Ganon pulls off. And boy if that happens, I can already see the memes and whatnot from that.

Spoiler

I can't wait for the horrifying implications of Link being copied a million times and everyone losing track of which one was the original.

Unrelated, but something I can't unsee that now I'm making you all see.

Piplup has a crown on its face.

...I've somehow never noticed that, what the Hoppip? I'd assume it's intentional, even fits with the line's theme since it evolves into Empoleon and all, like, you know, an emperor penguin.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Well the whole line is based on royalty, so it fits

Little design details like that are part of why I love Pokemon.

...I've somehow never noticed that, what the Hoppip? I'd assume it's intentional, even fits with the line's theme since it evolves into Empoleon and all, like, you know, an emperor penguin.

Oh I have no doubt it was intentional. Just a detail that once you see it, you can't unsee.

 

[NintenRob]

Here are my Smash Bros specific takeaways


Mario & Luigi Brothership: We've yet to have a Mario & Luigi stage, and this setting seems to really offer a prime candidate. However there are a number of strong candidates for new Mario stage, such as Wonder, Showtime, Bowser's Fury and whatever the next 3D Mario is. Still, where Mario & Luigi lacks in stages, it usually offers a lot of music.

Mario Party: Never had a Mario Party stage either and I'd love one. Maybe the island setting will offer them more stage appeal? I dunno, I just want some like Wario Ware Inc. we'll see how many Mario stages though

Echoes of Wisdom: The game seems to take place in a pretty standard version of Hyrule which may dissuade a stage being selected (at this time anyway) especially compared to Tears of the Kingdom and it's sky islands, and Links Awakening Koholint Island. But what I find curious is actually Zelda's design, which is actually the same as her current Smash Design, at least while in royal attire, perhaps this means Zelda won't be redesigned? I'm sure we'll get a bit but Smash will almost certainly focus primarily on Tears

Metroid Prime 4: Could this be how Samus looks in the next Smash? I highly doubt we're sticking with the Other M look when we have both this and Dread. The question, will Samus be based on this or Dread? I could see them choosing Prime 4 since it's a more traditional look the character with Dread as an alt. Might get a stage too. I'd hope both Prime and Dread get a stage.

 

[Nickthebrick1]

Speaking of kraid, someone created a moveset for him. Thought it was interesting and the reason I brought him up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQXCiiB75C0

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I had a thought. And for the first time in a while. I think both Young Link and Toon Link may be in danger of being cut.

Toon Link's prominence in the Zelda franchise always made me feel he was pretty darn safe, but I'm starting to think the Toon style has been quietly retired. I'm not saying Toy Link is going to replace him or anything. I think we'll just go without a Link clone (so Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf and a newcomer?) but I think they finally moved on from the Toon art style.

That's a shame. I love that art style and Toon Link is a personal favorite of mine.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Sakurai mainly has one clone because he thinks a Child Link should be in the game. I don't think we'll lose both with that in mind. Which one'll come back is another story. Being they're porting over multiple Zelda games anyway, either could return. Toon Link also got Four Swords ported over anyway, and admittedly there's not much stuff with Young Link lately. So we're probably keeping Toon as is. He's a far more popular one, and still easy to keep returning. He also stands out even more from Link now that he's been changed to play quite a bit more... wildly, if you will.

I only see it really in a massive cutdown scenario(though frankly, since movesets don't get wildly changed up anyway, Ganondorf could also be in danger, but we could get an entirely different one to replace him(the moveset would be lost regardless. No, they don't get copy-pasted onto another. Toon Link wasn't a copy paste either, nor a graphical upgrade. He was a completely different character who was designed to be a clone of Link. Young Link just had pieces that could be retooled). No, Black Shadow won't take his moveset. Let's be real; Black Shadow, if he was going to use a Ganondorf moveset, would've gotten in because he's a clone of Ganondorf. No more, no less. If he's getting in on his own merits, it won't be to replace Ganondorf. It's not that it's a bad idea. It's just that this kind of stuff isn't done that way because characters are absolutely not functions, but the moveset is part of what defines them. Also, it's way easier to adjust to a character who gets minor changes. Which, as big as some may seem, they're still pretty minor. They can be harder to adjust to of course, but aren't some big overhaul at any point. Can they happen? Sure. Are they likely? Really, really low(about one of the few things slightly higher than a Manga character joining. That's a good ballpark of how realistic it is).

Respectively, this is also assuming it stays with Sakurai's design style. If that changes with a new director, the entire system of what we know can change. How much? Nobody knows because we don't know Sakurai's position. An advisor? Maybe. Just somebody they talk to once in a while? Still possible. While Japanese Game Creation has a lot more respect for the Developers, this doesn't mean they will hard follow the philosophy. It just means they actually understand it better because they care more about it.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Besides, you can always make a blog and rant if you got a lot to say.

Or I can just keep saying it here. Since speculating on the next Smash is what this thread is for, and you're not the arbiter of what it's okay for people to talk about.

I'm not the one who keeps writing 5 paragraph dissertations on the subject. Maybe I'm not the one who needs to go write a blog.

 

[fogbadge]

Kraid is a case of people confusing appearing in multiple games for actually being important.

ah the Waluigi effect

Besides, you can always make a blog and rant if you got a lot to say.

I do that with my radio show. Although it’s usually about dr who

Metroid Prime 4: Could this be how Samus looks in the next Smash? I highly doubt we're sticking with the Other M look when we have both this and Dread. The question, will Samus be based on this or Dread? I could see them choosing Prime 4 since it's a more traditional look the character with Dread as an alt. Might get a stage too. I'd hope both Prime and Dread get a stage.

I hope not, her prime design is kinda boring

 

[RileyXY1]

I think that they're gonna go with the Samus Returns design, with the Dread look as an alt.

 

[NintenRob]

I had a thought. And for the first time in a while. I think both Young Link and Toon Link may be in danger of being cut.

Toon Link's prominence in the Zelda franchise always made me feel he was pretty darn safe, but I'm starting to think the Toon style has been quietly retired. I'm not saying Toy Link is going to replace him or anything. I think we'll just go without a Link clone (so Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf and a newcomer?) but I think they finally moved on from the Toon art style.

That's a shame. I love that art style and Toon Link is a personal favorite of mine.

Imagine if they add Toy Link, then do everyone is here again, and we're left with Link, Toy Link, Toon Link and Young Link as separate playable characters

I think that they're gonna go with the Samus Returns design, with the Dread look as an alt.

I'm not sure, the proportions on Samus returns is pretty different from Dread, especially in the should pads.


Dread and Prime 4 are both generally slimmer than other Samus with more human proportions, like both look designed for humans to actually move around in

 

[Guynamednelson]

if you don’t want any cuts

Trust me, he does. His dream roster is only EIH on a surface-level standpoint, it's not Every Function Is Here (IE: No ZSS, so that playstyle is gone).

 

[BritishGuy54]

Trust me, he does. His dream roster is only EIH on a surface-level standpoint, it's not Every Function Is Here (IE: No ZSS, so that playstyle is gone).

Oh yeah, and don’t forget the removal of all transformations.

And the roster is usually stuck in the past from what I’ve seen.

 

[Guynamednelson]

And the roster is usually stuck in the past from what I’ve seen.

That's not the point I was making. It was just that if you make any cuts, it's not EIH, period. Note that Nintendo showed Pichu after Snake to prove a point that Everyone Is Here meant EVERYONE.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Am I the first one to think there's a chance Dread might have missed its shot at being the main Samus design in the next Smash because Prime 4 has a release date now?

 

[BritishGuy54]

Am I the first one to think there's a chance Dread might have missed its shot at being the main Samus design in the next Smash because Prime 4 has a release date now?

I think it could end up being an alt.

 

[RileyXY1]

Am I the first one to think there's a chance Dread might have missed its shot at being the main Samus design in the next Smash because Prime 4 has a release date now?

I think Prime 4 is coming too late to be considered. I think that the roster was decided last year, when Dread was still mostly new.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I think Prime 4 is coming too late to be considered. I think that the roster was decided last year, when Dread was still mostly new.

That didn't stop Mario and Link from having details based on Odyssey and Breath of the Wild respectively.

Heck, we wouldn't know Odyssey was even a thing until about two years after the roster was decided and Link's BotW touches are actually quite significant, from the outfit to the bomb to rechecking every single animation since they made him right-handed this time.

There's also Luigi having a Poltergust model that wouldn't be seen in a video game until four and a half years after the roster was settled on, to the point where this is one of the few things outside of spirits to come from a game that released AFTER Ultimate. Not to mention his grab and even some throws.

Characters themselves are likely decided by now but how they play or look can draw from games that came after that roster is set in stone.

 

[Gengar84]

I think it’s fine if you want to express your desire to keep “Everyone is Here!” going for a while longer at least. Just try to keep an open mind and understand that it might not be feasible depending on the direction they decide to take the series. If you want big changes to the gameplay or really ambitious modes, then it’s less likely we’ll see everyone come back. At some point cuts are going to be inevitable either way. I’m hopeful we’ll at least get one more game out of the concept but I’ll live if we don’t. On the other hand, I’d try to avoid definitive statements like EiH absolutely can’t come back. Sakurai did say it was difficult and unlikely but not impossible.

I do share some most wanted characters with Darth but I try to spread it out a bit and include characters from every generation. Nothing wrong with having a bias towards the classics you’re nostalgic for though. I do have a good amount of characters from the SNES era on my own list.

 

[Perkilator]

Am I the first one to think there's a chance Dread might have missed its shot at being the main Samus design in the next Smash because Prime 4 has a release date now?

I think Samus might switch between the two suits as alts. God I hope this doesn’t age like milk

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That's not the point I was making. It was just that if you make any cuts, it's not EIH, period. Note that Nintendo showed Pichu after Snake to prove a point that Everyone Is Here meant EVERYONE.

Sure, but you're missing something key;

A Dream Roster is entirely different from an expected Roster. His expectation is that nobody is cut, period. His dream is that the roster is entirely different while that one has absolutely zero cuts as well. They're blatantly different things from start to finish.

At least, that's entirely what I get from his statements overall. That they're two different things he's said. Plus, it's not really hard to separate Wants from Expectations. Pretty much everybody does anyway. Just cause some of the arguments are harder to parse doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I’d try to avoid definitive statements like EiH absolutely can’t come back

That's what I've been trying to argue when I disagree with the notion that more DLC for SSBU is impossible, but frankly in some ways I'm also grateful if it 100% is done, because if the next Smash not having everyone come back is a contentious idea now, just imagine if Nintendo announced yesterday that SSBU was going up to fighter #100.

Hell, my idea for how Smash was supposed to do a BCP when it doesn't have a mobile game would also make it more contentious to believe there are still good Nintendo characters left to add after the pass, because it would mean first-party fans would no longer have the Waluigi leg to stand on after the pass is finished.

 

[Gengar84]

I do honestly expect some cuts if we’re going to get a standard new Smash entry. The only real way I can see EiH again is if they use Ultimate as a base and just build on top of it. I just don’t like talking about cuts so often. I think it’s a lot more fun to speculate who could join and share ideas for our favorite characters. Cuts just aren’t a very interesting topic in my opinion. It’s also generally agreed that certain characters are more likely than others to come back so it gets kind of repetitive. Same goes for “who’s the most likely to join?” I suppose which is why I generally tend to talk more about characters I personally like than who I think is most likely.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Making Kraid playable would be the equivalent of making Whisky Woods or Kracko playable, I mean yeah you could, but why would you?

You say that as if it's not at all feasible on both ends, but Kirby has a potential route around that size conundrum.



Or, you know, they could just shrink them. Kirby's in a position where playable boss characters as fighters could feasibly make sense in a couple of ways. Metroid doesn't entirely get that benefit, and Ridley's workarounds are evidence of that.

 

[Curious Villager]

I had a thought. And for the first time in a while. I think both Young Link and Toon Link may be in danger of being cut.

Toon Link's prominence in the Zelda franchise always made me feel he was pretty darn safe, but I'm starting to think the Toon style has been quietly retired. I'm not saying Toy Link is going to replace him or anything. I think we'll just go without a Link clone (so Link, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf and a newcomer?) but I think they finally moved on from the Toon art style.

That's a shame. I love that art style and Toon Link is a personal favorite of mine.

Eh I don't think we'll be left with no child Link whatsoever in the next Smash since Sakurai tends to find them important to keep around, if worse comes to worse, they may both be replaced with "Toy Link" which I guess would be a silly way of Sakurai to not play favourites of which of the two child Link's to keep, which would essentially be neither, and bring in a new one, which would make the advent of a future Everyone is Here pretty funny to see from a fan reaction point of view...

 

[superprincess]

And yet we have had more updates since then. As recently as a few months ago.

This is a technicality. You know damn well what they meant by "final update"; the game wouldn't get any more fighters, stages, or balance patches. Spirits (literally PNGs...) don't require the team to reassemble.

 

[DKing]

EA Games

I really don't want EA in the game that my personal opinion because gamers hate EA.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I wonder if the 2024 spirits would've even happened if it didn't take forever for the Sora amiibo to drop

.....I didn't mean for this to be a double post. Oopsies!

I can't really narrow it down to franchises that feel most likely to get new characters, but my best guess is that there's various third companies in. With the consideration of worldwide appeal, preexisting relationship, and general company status, here's my best guess roughly by tier:

Tier 1
Sega, Square Enix, Capcom

Tier 2
Konami, Bandai-Namco, Microsoft (and the divisions it owns)

Tier 3
SNK, Koei Tecmo, Ubisoft, Take Two Entertainment, WB Games, Epic Games, Tencent Games

Tier 4
EA Games, Sony Interactive Entertainment (barring maybe Aloy)

Keep in mind this is for brand new characters, not veterans coming back. I'm also aware Koei Tecmo being that low is a bit controversial, but that's just my take.

Honestly, my beef is WB Games being that high.

WB Games sadly doesn't give a **** about most of its gaming-born IPs. It's pretty much just MK, which I'd really want to see happen but most likely never will, MultiVersus, whose only original option is Reindog, and games from non-gaming IPs, which are the only explicit no from Sakurai himself.

 

[DKing]

So guys... What companies do you think could be the new SNK? A company that would take most by surprise but would make sense in hindsight.

Spike Chunsoft and nihon falcom can be take this role.

 

[RileyXY1]

I wonder if the 2024 spirits would've even happened if it didn't take forever for the Sora amiibo to drop

I think so. I think the only reason those Spirits even happened was to give the community something fun to do while the dev team finally adds compatibility for the Sora amiibo.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

This is a technicality. You know damn well what they meant by "final update"; the game wouldn't get any more fighters, stages, or balance patches. Spirits (literally PNGs...) don't require the team to reassemble.

It's more than that anyway; all those Spirit Matches were planned well before Sora was(as we datamined ages ago). It's just that things like Covid complicated things, and many absolutely were going to release to more coincide with things like games releasing/advertisements anyway. Some were late, some were not.

So they definitely don't count(though they still required some work to make sure battles were balanced enough, but yeah, they absolutely did not need the whole team to reassemble. It's nothing like the other patches).

I wonder if the 2024 spirits would've even happened if it didn't take forever for the Sora amiibo to drop

Covid definitely didn't help either. Though yeah, some were probably figured out well after the original intended batch. The Sora amiibo coming out late isn't saying that much, as we had the same thing with the Bayonetta and Cloud ones alone(and Corrin). There was no way it wasn't going to take a while. Generally, Pass 2 had amiibo come out pretty slowly. That said, this also means they had a clear timeline of things not 100% finishing up too, outside of the regular patches. So it was pretty easy to justify more advertising ones anyway. So it kind of worked out that the game wasn't "hard finished" in that way. At least when it came to related products/downloads. We knew Patches were done with beyond amiibo and maybe Spirits anyway once Sora hit. Spirits even then were a legit surprise(but obviously were not a case of "we're getting more characters as a remote possibility" in reality). But we had some missing from the datamine, so it wasn't entirely as surprising by then.

 

[superprincess]

Sakurai mainly has one clone because he thinks a Child Link should be in the game.

This isn't true actually. We can infer this because a smaller Link has been in every game since Melee, but this was never explicitly stated. The reason behind Young Link's inclusion in Melee was because "people felt like Link (in Smash 64) was too slow". So the team made a faster but weaker Link to combat that. If Sakurai still values "faster Link" as a concept worth including, then we'll surely see Toon Link sticking around. Yes, Toon Link. I believe Young Link was only brought back because of EiH, just like Pichu.

I think that they're gonna go with the Samus Returns design, with the Dread look as an alt.

Samus Returns will be almost 10 years old by the time Smash 6 comes out. No way they pull from that.

Samus will probably take her design from Prime 4. Yes, it's a fairly new title that people may assume "missed the boat" but let's not forget this game has been in the works for 7+ years now. Sakurai & co probably knew what Samus would look like way before any of us saw her. It's a pity that Dread probably won't be the basis for her design, because I prefer it to the Prime 4 look but... eh. At least it's not Other M.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Sakurai mainly has one clone because he thinks a Child Link should be in the game.

More specifically, Young Link was a direct response to player feedback finding Link to be too slow and clunky for their liking. And then yeah, he kept the concept around since he still believes having a faster Link is important. It's not without merit though, Link is one of Nintendo's flagship characters, so most people not really vibeing with him is probably something the devs would want to avoid.

 

[Dinoman96]

I actually think it's possible that Samus Returns and Dread may take priority as Sakamoto's Metroid titles are seen as the "mainline games", with the Prime series being considered more of its own seperate subseries. Samus has always been based on the latest Sakamoto game at the time (Super in Melee, Zero Mission in Brawl, Other M in Smash 4 and even Ultimate).

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

What were we thinking about Metroid Prime 4's release? With all the hype around it I don't imagine they intend to bury it under the next console soooo dual release?

If not then I'd doubt we'd get much of anything from Metroid Prime 4 in the next game.