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Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

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ZephyrZ

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If I had to guess which FE characters would be cut in the next Smash title, as far off as it may be, I'd probably guess :ultcorrin: ,:ultbyleth:and maybe :ultrobin: would be the first to go. No not because I think they aren't unique or because I personally hate them, but just because the other FE characters have seniority.

:ultmarth: is the og FE protagonist and defined the "swordsmen" archetype in Smash. His tipper mechanic is both simple and flashy.
:ultroy: has Melee nostalgia power behind him due to being the "flaming sword guy", and that's a powerful thing.
:ultike: has popularity and Brawl nostalgia behind him (pls buff his grab game in the next Smash to make him more like an actual heavy again next game).
:ultlucina: and :ultchrom: are echoes - they're basically freebies that get to tag along with Marth and Roy. The only way I can see them getting cut while their counterparts get to stay is if the devs try to differentiate them some more next game, but run out of dev time and are forced to scrap them.

Honestly I'd personally hate to see Robin go because he's our only real FE mage, but very few people ever seem to actually play him compared to the other FE characters. That's in part because he's just not as good as them in this game, but he's also just got a really convoluted and technical design that just doesn't resonate with a lot of players the way the more simple swordsmen do.
 

Perkilator

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enough with the cuts discussion

i got an interesting new topic(TM)

you know how :ulthero:'s trailer played on WoL, particularly focusing on the Dark Realm? If you had to have two follow up newcomer trailers, one focused in the Light Realm (with maybe some creative liberties like Hero's trailer did) and one for the final battle where both Galeem and Dharkon are being fought, which character would you choose for each trailer and how would it go?

I'll do mine shortly
The Light Realm bit is exactly my idea for an Axel Stone trailer, as a homage to the Streets of Rage 2 intro.
Some time has passed…since the last struggle against villainy. The fall of Mr. X’s Syndicate has relieved the city and its people of chaos, and it’s been happy and peaceful ever since…

Until one day, an even greater crisis threatens more than just the city. Mysterious beams have been spotted, and hundreds of people-even major Syndicate members-have mysteriously disappeared. In addition, strange puppet-like beings that act like the people of Wood Oak have appeared all over the city. Only ex-cop Axel Stone remains to investigate not only the puppets and the beams, but the disappearance of his friends.

A task like this will be harder than anything Axel has seen before. With only him to get to the bottom of things, he must be willing to risk everything—even his life, in…”

(*cue picture of Galeem using his wings to form an angry eye, and Master Hand and Crazy Hand looming over the city, a la this picture*)

F13E19CE-7223-4BB3-8DF8-C57C9C210710.jpeg


“…the Streets of Light.”

Axel Stone Goes Straight Through!

(Gameplay scenes displaying Axel’s moveset, stage, and Final Smash against puppet fighters, as well as a snippet of Axel facing Galeem)

SUPER SMASH BROS. ULTIMATE X STREETS OF RAGE

@ 2018 Nintendo

Original Game: © Nintendo / HAL Laboratory, Inc.

Characters: © Nintendo / Hal Laboratory, Inc. / Pokémon. / Creatures Inc. / GAME FREAK inc. / SHIGESATO ITOI / APE inc. / INTELLIGENT SYSTEMS / Konami Digital Entertainment / SEGA / CAPCOM CO., LTD. / BANDAI NAMCO Entertainment Inc. / MONOLITHSOFT / CAPCOM USA., INC. / SQUARE ENIX CO., LTD. / ATLUS / Microsoft / SNK CORPORATION.
 

Megadoomer

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My problem with the whole cuts discussion is that it doesn't really go anywhere and tends to leave people annoyed, if not angry.

Some people want half (maybe even 2/3) of the roster cut for the sake of "competitive balance", someone's favourites are going to wind up being popular choices for being removed, third party licensing issues are a big question mark, people are going to use highly subjective reasons like one series having "too many" characters (really hope nobody tries claiming we have "too many Metroid characters") or a character "not fitting" into Smash (with that last one mainly seeming to come from people who have never played the games that the character in question is from), nobody's going to be able to convince each other that certain characters should take priority over others, and the conversation eventually dwindles off only to be brought up again a few weeks/months later.

enough with the cuts discussion

i got an interesting new topic(TM)

you know how :ulthero:'s trailer played on WoL, particularly focusing on the Dark Realm? If you had to have two follow up newcomer trailers, one focused in the Light Realm (with maybe some creative liberties like Hero's trailer did) and one for the final battle where both Galeem and Dharkon are being fought, which character would you choose for each trailer and how would it go?

I'll do mine shortly
For Galeem, if Bayonetta wasn't in the game already, my first instinct would be to go with her. For characters who fight things generally associated with light, maybe Lloyd Irving? Not my first choice for a Namco-Bandai character, and I haven't played enough of Tales of Symphonia to know how it would go, but he's the first one that comes to mind.

For Galeem and Dharkon, my bias has me thinking either Dante or Doomguy - someone who'd be willing, or downright eager, to take on those two teamed up would have to be absurdly powerful in-universe, and both of them have fought angelic (or at least angel-like) and demonic beings before. Either way, I could see them teaming up with a similar character that's already in the game (Bayonetta and Dante, or Samus and Doomguy - or Isabelle and Doomguy, if they wanted to acknowledge the memes) to do it.
 
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D

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The Light Realm bit is exactly my idea for an Axel Stone trailer, as a homage to the Streets of Rage 2 intro.
Some time has passed…since the last struggle against villainy. The fall of Mr. X’s Syndicate has relieved the city and its people of chaos, and it’s been happy and peaceful ever since…

Until one day, an even greater crisis threatens more than just the city. Mysterious beams have been spotted, and hundreds of people-even major Syndicate members-have mysteriously disappeared. In addition, strange puppet-like beings that act like the people of Wood Oak have appeared all over the city. Only ex-cop Axel Stone remains to investigate not only the puppets and the beams, but the disappearance of his friends.

A task like this will be harder than anything Axel has seen before. With only him to get to the bottom of things, he must be willing to risk everything—even his life, in…”

(*cue picture of Galeem using his wings to form an angry eye, and Master Hand and Crazy Hand looming over the city, a la this picture*)

View attachment 271384

“…the Streets of Light.”

Axel Stone Goes Straight Through!

(Gameplay scenes displaying Axel’s moveset, stage, and Final Smash against puppet fighters, as well as a snippet of Axel facing Galeem)

SUPER SMASH BROS. ULTIMATE X STREETS OF RAGE

@ 2018 Nintendo

Original Game: © Nintendo / HAL Laboratory, Inc.

Characters: © Nintendo / Hal Laboratory, Inc. / Pokémon. / Creatures Inc. / GAME FREAK inc. / SHIGESATO ITOI / APE inc. / INTELLIGENT SYSTEMS / Konami Digital Entertainment / SEGA / CAPCOM CO., LTD. / BANDAI NAMCO Entertainment Inc. / MONOLITHSOFT / CAPCOM USA., INC. / SQUARE ENIX CO., LTD. / ATLUS / Microsoft / SNK CORPORATION.
Bro, that would be freaking awesome!!!!

Gonna tag Sari Sari so they read this.
 

Arcanir

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I feel no decision following Ultimate is going to be universally accepted. You can try to keep all of the characters, but with the licensing, balancing, and other such aspects it's going to be hell on the development team and the amount of work they put may not have an end result that makes the hassle worth it. On the other hand, a cut of any magnitude is going to disappoint fans since we've gotten used to "Everyone is here" and all of them are someone's favorite, so even losing a single one would take away from that.

No matter what, it's going to be hard to follow Ultimate in terms of its roster, I don't envy whoever decides to tackle that endeavor.

MVCI had a lot more issues but yeah, making a sequel to a beloved game with a significantly smaller roster will always be a big nono. Look at Smash now, we're getting damn near 90 characters, cutting a bunch WILL upset people, especially if we get newcomers who would feel as a waste in comparison to what we had. MVCI newcomers were often met with bitterness because they simply didn't compare to what we lost and a Smash 6 would suffer a similar complaint as the few newcomers we WOULD get may be promotional picks like the Marvel side was seen as, sure, we COULD get idk, whoever the protag of Xenoblade 3 would be, but what if say, Ridley, K.Rool, Mewtwo, whatever, were absent in the same roster. Sure, the potential XB3 protag may end up being super popular and the best written character in fiction, but fans of the characters that are gone will inherently feel bitter
I feel the veterans got more heat in MvCI then the newcomers. With the newcomers, characters like Black Panther, Monster Huntress, Mega Man X, Captain Marvel and Ultron were those that many considered a long time coming, and usually they did bring movesets that many enjoyed, so they didn't really get a lot of hate. Veterans on the other hand got more backlash since then the issue came down to the classic 'why did you keep X over Y?' With examples like Nemesis over Jill/Wesker or Frank West over Amaterasu or Pheonix Wright, it could get pretty nasty since it was Smash's cuts wars amplified. And if you were a fan of characters like Firebrand or Nathan Spencer, good luck to you because you're going to constantly have people tell you they were a wasted slot and should've been replaced with someone else.
 
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Will

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If I had to guess which FE characters would be cut in the next Smash title, as far off as it may be, I'd probably guess :ultcorrin: ,:ultbyleth:and maybe :ultrobin: would be the first to go. No not because I think they aren't unique or because I personally hate them, but just because the other FE characters have seniority.
If you gave me a choice between having all Fire Emblem characters come back but no newcomers I'd like or "Clone City ft. Ike", it will legitimately be the only time I will welcome back Corrin with open arms.
 
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Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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FE is odd. I don't think any Avatars are getting cut because they bring a ton to the table. Marth is obviously staying. That leaves 4 other ones. Roy might stay, and Chrom is pretty "Roy exists" for why he is plausible as playable. Lucina is just as easy to cut as she is to stay. Ike is very unique(not that Roy isn't either).

If it was reduced to 4, I'd say the 3 Avatars and Marth since they all represent entirely different playstyles. Corrin represents the transformation stuff, Robin magic, and Byleth the weapon triangle. Marth is the basic playstyle.

I'd prefer no cuts, though. But in this case, the echoes/semi-clones are the easiest to remove when it comes to gameplay variety. Even then, the two echoes do bring something different, a similar playstyle to Marth/Roy without the core gimmick making it harder to play as. They all are worthwhile in their own unique way~
 

Cutie Gwen

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I feel no decision following Ultimate is going to be universally accepted. You can try to keep all of the characters, but with the licensing, balancing, and other such aspects it's going to be hell on the development team and the amount of work they put may not have an end result that makes the hassle worth it. On the other hand, a cut of any magnitude is going to disappoint fans since we've gotten used to "Everyone is here" and all of them are someone's favorite, so even losing a single one would take away from that.

No matter what, it's going to be hard to follow Ultimate in terms of its roster, I don't envy whoever decides to tackle that endeavor.



I feel the veterans got more heat in MvCI then the newcomers. With the newcomers, characters like Black Panther, Monster Huntress, Mega Man X, Captain Marvel and Ultron were those that many considered a long time coming, and usually they did bring movesets that many enjoyed, so they didn't really get a lot of hate. Veterans on the other hand got more backlash since then the issue came down to the classic 'why did you keep X over Y?' With examples like Nemesis over Jill/Wesker or Frank West over Amaterasu or Pheonix Wright, it could get pretty nasty since it was Smash's cuts wars amplified.

And if you were a fan of characters like Firebrand or Nathan Spencer, good luck to you because you're going to constantly have people tell you they were a wasted slot and should've been replaced with someone else.
I remember seeing Gamora, Winter Soldier and Black Widow especially getting met with bitterness about how they were deemed more worthy than who left and a lot of people were upset that the cuts removed a large chunk of the female cast and Sentinel, who's basically MvC's equivelant of Captain Falcon, though yeah players got divided amongst who managed to stay in the game
 

Cosmic77

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Personally, I'd keep all three FE avatar characters and focus on the clones and semi-clones. If any of the clones were to be cut, at least you'd have a character with a similar moveset to fall back on. If someone like Robin or Byleth gets cut, that's pretty much it. There aren't any characters remotely similar to them, so you're just out of luck.
 

Cutie Gwen

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Anyway if you thought people were pissed from MvC going from 50 characters to 36 at the end of both U3 and I then hoo boy try to imagine how awful it'd go from nearly 90 to god knows how little characters. This is why I hate talking about cuts, people seem to forget the entire appeal of fighting games to casual fans. It's why people absolutely condemned SFV and why GG Strive's stick in an uphill battle for a good 70% of it's audience
 

Cosmic77

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But I don't have similar moveset rebalanced for being aggressive to fall back on.
It's a character with different physics vs a character different physics and different moves.

We stand to lose more if we got rid of someone like Corrin or Byleth, which is why I personally would prioritize them before the clones.
 

ZephyrZ

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Does anyone here even play all the FE characters? Roy in Ultimate honestly plays more like Fox or Captain Falcon then he does like Marth. The resemblance in their attacks is purely aesthetic at this point. He's a hyper-aggressive rushdown character who wants to be in your face landing combos and strings all the time. It baffles me when people say he has the "same playstyle" as Marth. I'd argue he plays even less like Marth then Corrin or even Byleth do.

Is it just because I'm a competitive player that I think this way? Or is it just that I'm someone who actually plays Roy from time to time?
 

Rie Sonomura

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aight here's my WoL-adjacent newcomer trailer concepts

Light Realm:
Title is a reference to the Octo Expansion credits theme, Into The Light.
Assumes Min Min is the ARMS rep (and the first Spirit promotion) and Neku is FP7, making Octoling FP8. Octoling is also the second Spirit promotion (Octoling Girl & Octoling Boy).
cross flash

This music starts playing:

Galeem can be seen in the sky as the camera shifts to underwater as Galeem fades into the distance. The camera keeps descending into the sea until you see an area that looks like the Fake Plastic Station in Deepsea Metro. Four characters controlled by Galeem - Mario, Luigi (who yes I know is canonically controlled by Dharkon in WoL; I'm trying to make this a counterpart to Hero's which had Dharkon controlling peeps normally controlled by Galeem, you'll see why Galeem though soon), Female Corrin (see Luigi and it was technically Male Corrin controlled by Dharkon in canon but I digress) and Female Byleth, patrol the outside of some mysterious building as green ink with a weird sanitizer like texture surrounds the ground ahead of them. (Now you see why I chose Galeem and their aura for this - the light blue represents Sanitization.)

Dialogue boxes appear throughout the trailer, with the mentioned characters' Octo Expansion portraits starting with:

Marina: What kind of place is this...?

Pearl: Yo, that light thingy up there is givin' me reeeeeal bad vibes...

Cap'n Cuttlefish: But we can't get outta here long as those guys are patrollin'.

Just then, a stream of peach-colored ink cuts across the green "sanitizer" ink, followed by a purplish-pink stream.

Cap'n Cuttlefish: WHOA!

Pearl: No way... could that be?

The music stops as two moving ripples form on the streams of ink, before:

"Oonay!"

This music starts playing:


A shot of purplish pink ink shoots from a Charger-type weapon and hits the Galeem-controlled Mario, sending him flying. The remaining "guards" turn their attention to the puddles of ink as two Octolings emerge from the ink: a female purplish-pink haired one with a female leather suit, and a male with peach colored hair and a similar suit, as the song reaches 0:10.

Marina: It's Agent 8!!

Title card shows at 0:12:

Octoling Paints The Town Pink!

Pearl: Excuse YOU, their name's Eight!

Gameplay starts as the song resumes, with various Galeem-controlled characters representing "Sanitized" versions of the Smash characters, even again, ones canonically controlled by Dharkon in WoL proper, like Cloud, Wolf, Lucina and Daisy, and actual canon Galeem-controlled Smashers like Captain Falcon, Ness, Bowser, and at one point Inkling with the yellow Agent 3 alt, a throwback to Hijacked Agent 3. Octolings use a variety of weapons the Inklings don't, like Dualies (which they can also use to dodge), Chargers, Umbrellas, and Splatlings, and their Bomb is a Toxic Mist which slows opponents down instead of the standard Splat Bomb. At one point, some DLC characters NOT controlled by Galeem appear, including the DQ8 Hero (pun on both of them being nicknamed Eight), and Neku. At one point, the Chaos Gold Female Octoling taunts with a Mii Swordfighter wearing Rex's Outfit, Male Byleth, Min Min and the Spring Man AT (Switch fam represent). Other alts are shown: Order Silver (Male), Mayo Pale Yellow (Female), Ketchup Orange-Red (Male), Unicorn Periwinkle (Female), and Narwhal Lavender (Male). (Those are all Splatfest colors in 2, with the exception of the first two which are taken straight from Octo Expansion.) Dialogue continues:

Cap'n Cuttlefish: You got a lotta weapons at yer disposal, kid. Use 'em wisely!

C. Q. Cumber: You're in Smash instead of the Deepsea Metro - test fai--

Pearl: OUTTA HERE, ya slimeball!

When the song gets to 0:25, cut back to CGI briefly as the Octolings get in their Ballers and charge in on the remaining three guards. Back to gameplay, the Octolings' Final Smash is shown - Baller. They can move around and hit opponents a few times before automatically detonating, instantly KOing anyone in point blank range. It can also be detonated early by pressing B. Gameplay resumes until 0:37, with another brief cut back to CGI as a Galeem controlled Agent 3 (Yellow Female Inkling) leaps down from the top of the building.

Marina: Agent 3?! How?!

Pearl: Don't have a seacow, Marina. I'll take it from here!

As the song resumes, gameplay continues as Octoling's stage, MC. Princess Diaries (the Final Fest Shifty Station) is shown, with the ruins of the NILS statue in the distance and Pearl and Marina in a helicopter above. It eventually cuts to Pearl descending from the helicopter with her special ready, and the Octoling getting her to whip out her Princess Cannon to blast a Galeem-controlled Agent 3 to the right with the Chaos ink blast (to the left, it's the Order ink blast).

Pearl: Boo-YAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!

the dialogue of Boo-YAHHHHHHH lines up with Pearl actually shouting it until the song ends with the fade out at 1:00 and the Smash Ultimate logo appears, stylized in the Octo Expansion's style ("Super Smash Bros" has a synthwave chrome look, and "Ultimate" is a neon pink).

... and there's more!

This starts playing as both Octolings, Min Min, and Neku stand at the cliffs before Galeem attacks, seeing all the Master Hands in the sky ready to take them down, before Galeem appears before them.

Pearl: AYO! We got you!
Off The Hook's helicopter hovers above them and Pearl leaps down in front of the fighters.

Pearl: Vocal chords ready!.... AYO, LIGHT THINGY!

It's pretty much the same as when Pearl uses the Princess Cannon against the NILS Statue in Octo Expansion except it's against Galeem, down to Pearl's BOOYAAAAAAAAH and the fluctuating turf war meters (Galeem's "Bad Guy" bar is a glimmering yellow instead) but when the Bad Guy bar almost completely overpowers the Good Guys bar, the trailer cuts to black and ends, for a suspenseful effect

Final Battle:
Elma is treated as FP9. Previous reveals are Min Min, Neku and Octoling. And you know how Shulk's trailer is titled "Looks like we don't have a choice!" when you're up against a high level UM? Elma says "We're Up Against A Big Target" as a soul voice when fighting a large enemy.
The trailer opens at this part in Uncontrollable, fading in:
Right after the Final Battle area intro FMV with Galeem and Dharkon firing laser beams at each other while Mario, Sonic, Simon, Greninja, Pit et al. look on. It's a direct continuation as Galeem and Dharkon notice the other fighters and start generating Phantom Fighters for each fighter save for Kirby, based on where they're found.

Every time I ask the smallest thing

It doesn't go over well. Some fighters can be seen lying on the ground, like Lucina struggling to get up as her dark clone points its sword at her chest, and Captain Falcon being grabbed by the collar by his light clone. The light and dark clones of Palutena and Bayonetta respectively double team the real ones as you can hear their cries. Shulk murmurs fearfully, "No, not again... Another future I can't change..."

You get mad, or just ignore

Even Joker, Terry, Min Min, Neku and Banjo are having a tough time trying to protect Kirby and pick off the others' phantoms. Octoling Girl calls out to the Luminary to try to take both Galeem and Dharkon on their own and stop all this, only to be stopped by a light clone of the Luminary and a dark clone of Octoling Girl. The real ones look shocked - how were Galeem and Dharkon able to replicate them?!

I don't want to hear (Every time I...)

"Executioner!”

Carefully aimed gunshots in all directions pick off the phantoms that were attacking the distressed fighters, including the clones of Hero and Octo Girl.

How long we've been here (Smallest thing...)

Standing before them is Elma, the BLADE Colonel and leader of the Reclaimers.

There's no chance for fear (You get mad...)

Smiling at them, she tells Hero, Octoling and the others, "You've all done your best, and put a dent in them." Turning to Galeem and Dharkon, she draws her twin swords and announces, "Time to move in and keep the rhythm going!"

Elma Shifts Into Overdrive!


Gameplay is shown where Elma shows off her various moves, all against Galeem and Dharkon created puppet fighters, some on her included stage (Sylvalum, even showing some of the various weather effects). There's even some divergences like puppet fighters with the opposite "alignment" of their bases' canon "alignment" and phantoms of the DLC fighters like Terry (Dark) and Min Min (Light).

Back to FMV as these lyrics play, Elma fights off more phantoms:
...Can we find the key to life?
I don't want to be a part
There's a spaceship we can ride...


"They really did crank up the difficulty this time... But you've had your chance," Elma taunts Galeem and Dharkon, climbing into the Ares 90 Skell close by.

Now it's time to ride....!

Back to gameplay, Elma now has her True Form alt from the end of X, initiating her Final Smash - Ares 90, a cockpit view with Overdrive ("LEGION") enabled, as she unleashes various Skell arts on the opponents, finishing with Aghasura Cannon (idk if I'm spelling that right). Back again to FMV, a cockpit view of Galeem and Dharkon with lock on targeting on them is shown as Elma murmurs, "Locked on."

Let's get started again
Do not tire yourself
We'll get back the life for ourselves today


"I'm putting an end to this!"

Aghasura Cannon is fired at Galeem and Dharkon as they explode in bursts of yellow and purple light.

Let's get started again
Do not scare yourself
We can take this ride for ourselves


The song fades out as the Super Smash Bros. Ultimate logo appears.

("They really did crank up the difficulty this time" is a reference to Elma's Xenoblade 2 appearance where she says, "Only this many though? I should tell them to crank up the difficulty next time")
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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I feel the veterans got more heat in MvCI then the newcomers. With the newcomers, characters like Black Panther, Monster Huntress, Mega Man X, Captain Marvel and Ultron were those that many considered a long time coming, and usually they did bring movesets that many enjoyed, so they didn't really get a lot of hate. Veterans on the other hand got more backlash since then the issue came down to the classic 'why did you keep X over Y?' With examples like Nemesis over Jill/Wesker or Frank West over Amaterasu or Pheonix Wright, it could get pretty nasty since it was Smash's cuts wars amplified. And if you were a fan of characters like Firebrand or Nathan Spencer, good luck to you because you're going to constantly have people tell you they were a wasted slot and should've been replaced with someone else.
I wonder how MvC3 was received then in terms of roster (it had 20 less characters than MvC2).

Anyway if you thought people were pissed from MvC going from 50 characters to 36 at the end of both U3 and I then hoo boy try to imagine how awful it'd go from nearly 90 to god knows how little characters. This is why I hate talking about cuts, people seem to forget the entire appeal of fighting games to casual fans. It's why people absolutely condemned SFV and why GG Strive's stick in an uphill battle for a good 70% of it's audience
I agree. While I don't think the scope creep is sustainable (unless they go "screw it, let's go on a 8-10 year dev cycle and/or use a dev team the size of 5"), Super Smash Bros. should never not have a butt ton of characters anymore.

I knew Guilty Gear Strive had a ton of problems (lobby, UI, etc.) but I didn't know the roster was one of them. Did they confirm that the roster will be much smaller than the previous game?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Does anyone here even play all the FE characters? Roy in Ultimate honestly plays more like Fox or Captain Falcon then he does like Marth. The resemblance in their attacks is purely aesthetic at this point. He's a hyper-aggressive rushdown character who wants to be in your face landing combos and strings all the time. It baffles me when people say he has the "same playstyle" as Marth. I'd argue he plays even less like Marth then Corrin or even Byleth do.

Is it just because I'm a competitive player that I think this way? Or is it just that I'm someone who actually plays Roy from time to time?
I have Roy as one of my secondary mains and a friend of mine is an Ike main.
 

RouffWestie

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How about talking about what stages we’d like to see with our most wanted? I’ll go:

Sora: Station of Awakening
Crash: N. Sanity Beach
Adeleine & Ribbon: Ripple Star
Min Min: Ramen Bowl
Axel Stone: Wood Oak City Slums
Euden: The Halidom
Ms. Pac-Man - Pac-Maze
Axel - The Castle that Never Was
The throne room portion specifically. I'm having a hard time pinpointing why, but it seems like a really appealing venue for a fight. The other Organization members would spectate in the background.
Shadow - Final Chase
Traveling stage, actually it combines set pieces from both Final Rush and Final Chase. The Finalhazard occasionally shows up in the background, Super Sonic and Super Shadow battling it if neither is being played as.
Lilty - River Belle Path
Caravaneers can be seen adventuring in the background, moogles and enemies make cameo appearances, and the Giant Crab boss will leap out when you least expect it.
Dixie Kong - Northern Kremisphere
Traveling stage with dropoff points at Lakeside Limbo, Riverside Race, Lemguin Lunge, and Barrel Drop Bounce.
 

Arcanir

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I remember seeing Gamora, Winter Soldier and Black Widow especially getting met with bitterness about how they were deemed more worthy than who left and a lot of people were upset that the cuts removed a large chunk of the female cast and Sentinel, who's basically MvC's equivelant of Captain Falcon, though yeah players got divided amongst who managed to stay in the game
I do remember Black Widow, but I didn't see a lot of hate for Gamora, at least not to the same extent as Firebrand or Nemesis. The worst I saw was Star Lord fans being a little angry he was skipped over for her.

As an aside though, wouldn't it be hypocritical to complain about Black Widow and Gamora while also complaining about the lack of female characters on the roster? Taking those two out would've made the issue worse, not better, so I don't see why those two would've gotten backlash from the fans upset about that.

I wonder how MvC3 was received then in terms of roster (it had 20 less characters than MvC2).
Got some backlash as well, though MvC3 got more of a pass since it wasn't bogged down by as many issues as Infinite.
 
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Cosmic77

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Does anyone here even play all the FE characters? Roy in Ultimate honestly plays more like Fox or Captain Falcon then he does like Marth. The resemblance in their attacks is purely aesthetic at this point. He's a hyper-aggressive rushdown character who wants to be in your face landing combos and strings all the time. It baffles me when people say he has the "same playstyle" as Marth. I'd argue he plays even less like Marth then Corrin or even Byleth do.

Is it just because I'm a competitive player that I think this way? Or is it just that I'm someone who actually plays Roy from time to time?
I think you're looking at this too much from the perspective of a competitive player, especially if you're willing to claim that Corrin and Byleth, two characters who have projectiles and barely use a sword in their moveset, are more similar to Marth than Roy is.

I get that Roy plays differently than Marth, but he still qualifies as a semi-clone. A majority of his moveset is derived from an existing player, and his physics, hitboxes, and power just makes him feel like more of his own character.
 
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pupNapoleon

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I think this conversation about cuts is cute. You guys are talking as if all they are going to do is merely downsize what we already have and not, you know, revamp everything. Wondering if a certain character going to be in the next Smash is like wondering if Tobey Macguire will be in the next Spider Man movie.
I agree with this immensely.

Anything other than a reboot would quite frankly not make much marketing sense.
Not just because that's the cycle of creation, as far as a climax and then a reset, but also because it's a single man that is behind this game as a. visionary, not a team. Sakurai does eventually have to step down. It's likely to be here. There isn't a 'bigger' smash around the corner. I think he has made that point pretty clear.
 

Guynamednelson

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It's a character with different physics vs a character different physics and different moves.

We stand to lose more if we got rid of someone like Corrin or Byleth, which is why I personally would prioritize them before the clones.
Actually we'd lose more if we dropped the only FE rep balanced around close range.
 

Megadoomer

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I threw together a hypothetical "what-if" scenario where James Bond (somehow) got into Smash Bros. Melee (I can't remember if the context for him being brought up was due to a fan poll or a poll among the staff), meaning that he was included in Everyone Is Here.

Admittedly, I don't know the ins and outs of competitive Smash (attack percentage, statistics, etc.), and my art skills range from limited to non-existent, so it's pretty basic. I’m trying to stick to the restrictions of Melee/Brawl in terms making it so Bond doesn’t fire realistic firearms. (Captain Falcon had a pistol, but he never actually used it, and while Joker has GUN as a special, that’s quite a bit later)

James Bond

Series Icon: the 007 logo https://flaticons.net/icon.php?slug_category=miscellaneous&slug_icon=james-bond-007

Victory Theme: the opening snippet of the James Bond theme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV7GI2LxWRw (everything before the boxart shows up)



B: Throwing Knife – if you hold down the B button, you can aim it up or down, or you can press the B button to throw it quickly

Up B: Jetpack – while not used in Goldeneye, going by the game’s multiplayer, anything from previous Bond movies is fair game. In this case, he used a jetpack in Thunderball.

Side B: Watch Laser – Bond fiddles with his watch and it shoots out a laser – it lasts longer than Fox’s laser and hits multiple times, but as a result, it isn’t as fast.

Down B: Remote Mines – acts similarly to Snake’s C4, except he throws them, which gives them more range but makes them harder to place discretely

Final Smash: The Man with the Golden Gun. A red target drifts out in front of Bond, and as soon as it hits someone, it transitions into the legendary Bond Gun Barrel. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV7h55ha52E) Bond walks out before turning into the camera, Golden Gun in hand. Turning, he shoots at the camera, causing the barrel to turn red and drift down. This cinematic final smash can only hit one enemy, but it instantly kills the enemy, causing them to vanish as though they were hit by Hero’s Thwack spell.

For Bond’s basic moves, he uses various punches, kicks, chops, pistol whips, etc. inspired by the movies, or made up if needed (might be difficult to find material for an upwards attack).

For his victory poses, he either walks into frame before striking the pose from the cover of Goldeneye as the camera zooms in, dives towards the camera to avoid an explosion, and rappels down from the ceiling, aiming his gun side to side as he descends.



Stage: Facility – a walk-off stage that blends together three rooms from the Facility – the Bottling Room, Laboratories, and Bathroom. The rooms are connected via doors, or through air vents. The air vents have less obstacles, but they give more of an advantage to projectile users, while the doors block projectiles.



Music:

Main Title – Goldeneye 007 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oL7VN78Zz8

Facility https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew8AoVAXaDk

Severnaya Surface https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5e2KbfYa_I

Cradle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIJQGLam9hQ

Blow the Gas Tanks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1bBXS1F9Xo

Escape from the Missile Train https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mFWz6HLWj8

Multiplayer 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtSa6g1Ypr8

Silo Detonation Imminent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76XVRHdTups



Classic Mode: The World Is Not Enough (okay, that movie came out after Goldeneye, but it's the Bond family motto translated into English)

Round 1: vs. Sheik on Temple

Round 2: vs. Zero Suit Samus on Fourside

Round 3: vs. Simon and Richter on Dracula’s Castle

Round 4: vs. K. Rool on Suzaku Castle (there have been several cases where people sent animals to kill Bond)

Round 5: vs. Bayonetta on Battlefield

Bonus Game

Boss: Galleom

Round 6: vs. Snake on Shadow Moses



Spirits: (this is assuming that, by some miracle, they could get the likenesses of everyone else as well)

James Bond (fighter spirit)

Alec Trevelyan (Ace – vs. Snake on Facility - opponent will occasionally turn invisible)

Natalya Simonova (Novice – protect Daisy vs. Snake and Bayonetta on New Pork City – timed match, survive and keep Daisy alive until time runs out)

Xenia Onatopp (Advanced – vs. Bayonetta on Kongo Falls – opponent throws a lot)

Boris Grishenko (Novice – vs. Luigi on Shadow Moses – opponent is occasionally invincible for a short time, Freezies spawn regularly)

Oddjob (Advanced – vs. three small Mr. Game and Watches on Great Cave Offensive – timed match where all of the enemies are trying to avoid you)

Baron Samedi (Ace – vs. Simon on Dracula’s Castle – opponent has three lives)

May Day (Ace – vs. Dark Samus x 3 on New Donk City Hall)

Jaws (Legend – vs. Ganondorf on Halberd – opponent has super armour and is difficult to send flying)
 
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chocolatejr9

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Anyway if you thought people were pissed from MvC going from 50 characters to 36 at the end of both U3 and I then hoo boy try to imagine how awful it'd go from nearly 90 to god knows how little characters. This is why I hate talking about cuts, people seem to forget the entire appeal of fighting games to casual fans. It's why people absolutely condemned SFV and why GG Strive's stick in an uphill battle for a good 70% of it's audience
Is that why we haven't gotten a Tobal 3? Tobal 2 had, what, 200 characters?
 

Michael the Spikester

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Had James Bond made the cut in an alternate universe, Goku probably would had been an option as with other non-gaming characters.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
I threw together a hypothetical "what-if" scenario where James Bond (somehow) got into Smash Bros. Melee (I can't remember if the context for him being brought up was due to a fan poll or a poll among the staff), meaning that he was included in Everyone Is Here.

Admittedly, I don't know the ins and outs of competitive Smash (attack percentage, statistics, etc.), and my art skills range from limited to non-existent, so it's pretty basic. I’m trying to stick to the restrictions of Melee/Brawl in terms making it so Bond doesn’t fire realistic firearms. (Captain Falcon had a pistol, but he never actually used it, and while Joker has GUN as a special, that’s quite a bit later)

James Bond

Series Icon: the 007 logo https://flaticons.net/icon.php?slug_category=miscellaneous&slug_icon=james-bond-007

Victory Theme: the opening snippet of the James Bond theme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV7GI2LxWRw (everything before the boxart shows up)



B: Throwing Knife – if you hold down the B button, you can aim it up or down, or you can press the B button to throw it quickly

Up B: Jetpack – while not used in Goldeneye, going by the game’s multiplayer, anything from previous Bond movies is fair game. In this case, he used a jetpack in Thunderball.

Side B: Watch Laser – Bond fiddles with his watch and it shoots out a laser – it lasts longer than Fox’s laser and hits multiple times, but as a result, it isn’t as fast.

Down B: Remote Mines – acts similarly to Snake’s C4, except he throws them, which gives them more range but makes them harder to place discretely

Final Smash: The Man with the Golden Gun. A red target drifts out in front of Bond, and as soon as it hits someone, it transitions into the legendary Bond Gun Barrel. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV7h55ha52E) Bond walks out before turning into the camera, Golden Gun in hand. Turning, he shoots at the camera, causing the barrel to turn red and drift down. This cinematic final smash can only hit one enemy, but it instantly kills the enemy, causing them to vanish as though they were hit by Hero’s Thwack spell.

For Bond’s basic moves, he uses various punches, kicks, chops, pistol whips, etc. inspired by the movies, or made up if needed (might be difficult to find material for an upwards attack).

For his victory poses, he either walks into frame before striking the pose from the cover of Goldeneye as the camera zooms in, dives towards the camera to avoid an explosion, and rappels down from the ceiling, aiming his gun side to side as he descends.



Stage: Facility – a walk-off stage that blends together three rooms from the Facility – the Bottling Room, Laboratories, and Bathroom. The rooms are connected via doors, or through air vents. The air vents have less obstacles, but they give more of an advantage to projectile users, while the doors block projectiles.



Music:

Main Title – Goldeneye 007 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oL7VN78Zz8

Facility https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew8AoVAXaDk

Severnaya Surface https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5e2KbfYa_I

Cradle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIJQGLam9hQ

Blow the Gas Tanks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1bBXS1F9Xo

Escape from the Missile Train https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mFWz6HLWj8

Multiplayer 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtSa6g1Ypr8

Silo Detonation Imminent https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76XVRHdTups



Classic Mode: The World Is Not Enough (okay, that movie came out after Goldeneye, but it's the Bond family motto translated into English)

Round 1: vs. Sheik on Temple

Round 2: vs. Zero Suit Samus on Fourside

Round 3: vs. Simon and Richter on Dracula’s Castle

Round 4: vs. K. Rool on Suzaku Castle (there have been several cases where people sent animals to kill Bond)

Round 5: vs. Bayonetta on Battlefield

Bonus Game

Boss: Galleom

Round 6: vs. Snake on Shadow Moses



Spirits: (this is assuming that, by some miracle, they could get the likenesses of everyone else as well)

James Bond (fighter spirit)

Alec Trevelyan (Ace – vs. Snake on Facility - opponent will occasionally turn invisible)

Natalya Simonova (Novice – protect Daisy vs. Snake and Bayonetta on New Pork City – timed match, survive and keep Daisy alive until time runs out)

Xenia Onatopp (Advanced – vs. Bayonetta on Kongo Falls – opponent throws a lot)

Boris Grishenko (Novice – vs. Luigi on Shadow Moses – opponent is occasionally invincible for a short time, Freezies spawn regularly)

Oddjob (Advanced – vs. three small Mr. Game and Watches on Great Cave Offensive – timed match where all of the enemies are trying to avoid you)

Baron Samedi (Ace – vs. Simon on Dracula’s Castle – opponent has three lives)

May Day (Ace – vs. Dark Samus x 3 on New Donk City Hall)

Jaws (Legend – vs. Ganondorf on Halberd – opponent has super armour and is difficult to send flying)
It would also be a cute little bonus if they added the main theme from the movie:


I find It really iconic.
 

Ben Holt

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If Fire Emblem characters were chosen based on popularity rather than random shill picks, your Fire Emblem cast would be Marth, Lucina, Ike, Chrom, and Byleth.
 

Megadoomer

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If Fire Emblem characters were chosen based on popularity rather than random shill picks, your Fire Emblem cast would be Marth, Lucina, Ike, Chrom, and Byleth.
I thought it would be Marth, Ike, Lucina, and six variations on Camilla, if Fire Emblem Heroes is any indication.
 

SMAASH! Puppy

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I do remember Black Widow, but I didn't see a lot of hate for Gamora, at least not to the same extent as Firebrand or Nemesis. The worst I saw was Star Lord fans being a little angry he was skipped over for her.
I'm convinced Black Widow was added to upset people with OCD.

1589159453270.png

____Dang it Black Widow! Now it's uneven!

EDIT: I love Firebrand, and I'm sad that I'll never be able to play him because I owned vanilla MvC3 and probably won't ever own another PlayStation.
 
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Megadoomer

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Is that why we haven't gotten a Tobal 3? Tobal 2 had, what, 200 characters?
Tobal 1 had twelve characters. If it continued at that rate, Tobal 3 would have 3333 characters. Legend has it that they started development on Tobal 3 shortly after Tobal 2 came out, and they're still working on it to this day.

(not really, but still, going from 12 playable characters to 200 in one game is insane)
 

Idon

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If Fire Emblem characters were chosen based on popularity rather than random shill picks, your Fire Emblem cast would be Marth, Lucina, Ike, Chrom, and Byleth.
Well actually, not Byleth.

They are solidly beaten by the 3 lords of the game and especially Edelgard/Dimitri.
Also you're forgetting Lyn, who is, need I remind you the most popular female character in the franchise (not including Edelgard as she is too recent to make that call)
So hey, Marth, Ike, Chrom, Lucina, Lyn, and Edelgard/Dimitri sounds... pretty damn rad.

Oh, but excuse me, smash bros fans don't base their roster picks off of people they like. That'd be too much to expect, I suppose.
 

NonSpecificGuy

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If Fire Emblem characters were chosen based on popularity rather than random shill picks, your Fire Emblem cast would be Marth, Lucina, Ike, Chrom, and Byleth.
Not really. It would basically just be Lyn.

Smash has helped Fire Emblem blow up but if that hadn’t happened but the GBA Fire Emblem still released then you can bet Lyn is probably the only one we would have ever gotten.

“Shill” picks aren’t necessarily a bad thing and I’m kind of tired of people acting like they always are. An ARMS character was super popular during Pre-Release but now all of a sudden they’re a shill pick. Awesome.
 
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PeridotGX

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You're cutting Roy, the only FE swordsfighter who prefers close-range over mid-range, but keeping his mid-range counterpart :ultchrom: because he's more "unique"?


If it's "I like Chrom more" I'd understand but this logic doesn't make sense.
Chrom has an Up-B that's completely different from Marth, in both animation and function. Roy's Up B is visually and functionally similar. This small thing makes him most unique.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Had James Bond made the cut in an alternate universe, Goku probably would had been an option as with other non-gaming characters.
Outside of being unable to license, he'd blatantly be in. He's massively requested and a cultural icon.

Other than that, you have ones like Mickey Mouse and Popeye, another set of major non-gaming characters, who would be sweet options. Not that there aren't other great ones like Wreck-It Ralph and Spongebob.

You have various Novel characters of note too. The more classic Dracula alone, not simply the Castlevania version, for one example. There's probably others from Stephen King alone. Etc.

...Obviously the issue is there's just so damn many. XD
 

Perkilator

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Well actually, not Byleth.

They are solidly beaten by the 3 lords of the game and especially Edelgard/Dimitri.
Also you're forgetting Lyn, who is, need I remind you the most popular female character in the franchise (not including Edelgard as she is too recent to make that call)
So hey, Marth, Ike, Chrom, Lucina, Lyn, and Edelgard/Dimitri sounds... pretty damn rad.

Oh, but excuse me, smash bros fans don't base their roster picks off of people they like. That'd be too much to expect, I suppose.
If it were up to me:

Marth, Ike, Chrom, Lyn, Dimitri and Anna.
 

DaybreakHorizon

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A little offhand, but I feel TMS would've gone over better if we didn't get that teaser trailer two years before they were ready to show it. What they shown us then gave a far different impression then what the game ended up being, and that first impression really tainted it for a lot of people.
I think that's a large part of it, yeah. I just wish people would give it a chance regardless. It's been years now and people still pile hate on the game for that.
 

Kotor

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Does anyone here even play all the FE characters? Roy in Ultimate honestly plays more like Fox or Captain Falcon then he does like Marth. The resemblance in their attacks is purely aesthetic at this point. He's a hyper-aggressive rushdown character who wants to be in your face landing combos and strings all the time. It baffles me when people say he has the "same playstyle" as Marth. I'd argue he plays even less like Marth then Corrin or even Byleth do.

Is it just because I'm a competitive player that I think this way? Or is it just that I'm someone who actually plays Roy from time to time?
Thoron is my signature move for Pink Robin.
 

Schnee117

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If Fire Emblem characters were chosen based on popularity rather than random shill picks, your Fire Emblem cast would be Marth, Lucina, Ike, Chrom, and Byleth.
The cast would be very close to exactly what we have, you'd just have Lyn added in and swap Byleth for Edelgard or Dimitri.
Almost everyone else on the roster consistently performs well in FEH's CYL polls. The only one who doesn't is Male Corrin who's never cracked the top 20 for men though it should be stressed that, due to split votes for Ike and Marth, he would have been 19th for Men in the first CYL poll.
 
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SMAASH! Puppy

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Tobal 1 had twelve characters. If it continued at that rate, Tobal 3 would have 3333 characters. Legend has it that they started development on Tobal 3 shortly after Tobal 2 came out, and they're still working on it to this day.

(not really, but still, going from 12 playable characters to 200 in one game is insane)
Having 200 characters is insane! And on an older 3D game no less! The game's probably horribly unbalanced, but still...

Outside of being unable to license, he'd blatantly be in. He's massively requested and a cultural icon.

Other than that, you have ones like Mickey Mouse and Popeye, another set of major non-gaming characters, who would be sweet options. Not that there aren't other great ones like Wreck-It Ralph and Spongebob.

You have various Novel characters of note too. The more classic Dracula alone, not simply the Castlevania version, for one example. There's probably others from Stephen King alone. Etc.

...Obviously the issue is there's just so damn many. XD
In hind sight, they probably dodged a bullet with not including him. The scope of gaming is already ridiculous. Throwing in all of media as well...I don't even know they exist, and I still pity the devs in the alternate universes in which this is a thing.
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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In hind sight, they probably dodged a bullet with not including him. The scope of gaming is already ridiculous. Throwing in all of media as well...I don't even know they exist, and I still pity the devs in the alternate universes in which this is a thing.
Heh, nice pun. But yeah, it worked out well in the end.

Though on the other hand, it means we wouldn't have really bad arguments against Sora. -_-
 
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