Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Idon]

Dunno if this is already confirmed but Nintendo confirms that the October Partner Direct was the last one of the year.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Dunno if this is already confirmed but Nintendo confirms that the October Partner Direct was the last one of the year.

They said as much in the Direct. Makes sense. I assume if they've got anything else they want to show, they'll save it for the Game Awards.

 

[SharkLord]

Dunno if this is already confirmed but Nintendo confirms that the October Partner Direct was the last one of the year.

Yeah, they said that in the direct. Guess we're in the dark for the rest of the year, besides maybe TGA

 

[Idon]

They said as much in the Direct. Makes sense. I assume if they've got anything else they want to show, they'll save it for the Game Awards.

Yeah, they said that in the direct. Guess we're in the dark for the rest of the year, besides maybe TGA

Ah, then I must've skipped past that.
Ah well, that's a bit disappointing to say the least.

 

[SharkLord]

Ah, then I must've skipped past that.
Ah well, that's a bit disappointing to say the least.

I mean, they said it right at the beginning...

(Unless you skipped through that part)

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Has there ever been explanation as to why Bayonetta won the Smash Ballot? Or was that just an excuse because the ballot was used to gauge popularity? I recall Bayonetta being in Smash 4's source code during April/Juneish when the ballot was supposed to conclude in October of that year.

I don't even remember Bayonetta being highly talked about during the ballot days. At most I remember her being discussed as a potential dark horse pick. But nothing indicated Bayonetta topping the ballot in Europe, or being in the top 5 in the US.

When a ballot is open for almost a whole year to an enormous audience, I highly doubt there were that many Bayonetta fans who voted for her. Unless that series really is that popular, but I don't recall it being that way.

 

[Idon]

I mean, they said it right at the beginning...

(Unless you skipped through that part)

Well I'm not the type to watch the credits of movies you see. As soon as I saw that there wasn't any time left for an announcement, I just shut off the vid.

Has there ever been explanation as to why Bayonetta won the Smash Ballot? Or was that just an excuse because the ballot was used to gauge popularity? I recall Bayonetta being in Smash 4's source code during April/Juneish when the ballot was supposed to conclude in October of that year.

I don't even remember Bayonetta being highly talked about during the ballot days. At most I remember her being discussed as a potential dark horse pick. But nothing indicated Bayonetta topping the ballot in Europe, or being in the top 5 in the US.

When a ballot is open for almost a whole year to an enormous audience, I highly doubt there were that many Bayonetta fans who voted for her. Unless that series really is that popular, but I don't recall it being that way.

No, there's no explanation. Whether you want to believe she did win or not, they're sticking to that story and aren't commenting on it further. Personally, I've my own doubts what with the pre-release data and all, but what's done is done and there's no use being resentful over it.

As far as Bayonetta's popularity goes, it's definitely up there as far as character action games go. Bayonetta was seen really as the only other one besides DMC for the longest time and its exclusivity to the Wii U caused quite the uproar. Most people also consider it Platinum's flagship series, despite them not even owning the IP too. So while I'm iffy on it winning a global Smash poll, I could see it being popular in a lot of internet circles.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

No, there's no explanation. Whether you want to believe she did win or not, they're sticking to that story and aren't commenting on it further. Personally, I've my own doubts what with the pre-release data and all, but what's done is done and there's no use being resentful over it.

As far as Bayonetta's popularity goes, it's definitely up there as far as character action games go. Bayonetta was seen really as the only other one besides DMC for the longest time and its exclusivity to the Wii U caused quite the uproar. Most people also consider it Platinum's flagship series, despite them not even owning the IP too. So while I'm iffy on it winning a global Smash poll, I could see it being popular in a lot of internet circles.

I don't mind her inclusion at all. It just seems weird to me that she supposedly ranked that high and beat out all other video game characters.

 

[PeridotGX]

Has there ever been explanation as to why Bayonetta won the Smash Ballot? Or was that just an excuse because the ballot was used to gauge popularity? I recall Bayonetta being in Smash 4's source code during April/Juneish when the ballot was supposed to conclude in October of that year.

I don't even remember Bayonetta being highly talked about during the ballot days. At most I remember her being discussed as a potential dark horse pick. But nothing indicated Bayonetta topping the ballot in Europe, or being in the top 5 in the US.

When a ballot is open for almost a whole year to an enormous audience, I highly doubt there were that many Bayonetta fans who voted for her. Unless that series really is that popular, but I don't recall it being that way.

I struggle to believe they lied about Bayonetta winning the ballot in some form, because if they needed to lie 100% Cloud was right there and nobody would doubt he won. Them going with the stranger choice proves there was some truth in there.

 

[Perkilator]

Has there ever been explanation as to why Bayonetta won the Smash Ballot? Or was that just an excuse because the ballot was used to gauge popularity? I recall Bayonetta being in Smash 4's source code during April/Juneish when the ballot was supposed to conclude in October of that year.

Nope, no further explanation.

That being said, the ballot did start in April, so if Bayonetta was started in Q2 2015, then it’s possible Sakurai got the results at the time not too long after the ballot started.

 

[Megadoomer]

Has there ever been explanation as to why Bayonetta won the Smash Ballot? Or was that just an excuse because the ballot was used to gauge popularity? I recall Bayonetta being in Smash 4's source code during April/Juneish when the ballot was supposed to conclude in October of that year.

I don't even remember Bayonetta being highly talked about during the ballot days. At most I remember her being discussed as a potential dark horse pick. But nothing indicated Bayonetta topping the ballot in Europe, or being in the top 5 in the US.

When a ballot is open for almost a whole year to an enormous audience, I highly doubt there were that many Bayonetta fans who voted for her. Unless that series really is that popular, but I don't recall it being that way.

It's been five years. Five years!

My guess is that the ballot was heavily front-loaded (people would have gotten really excited and voted early on, but the votes would have died down heavily within the first month or two, especially if they only accepted one vote per IP address), and seeing as the ballot started roughly half a year after Bayonetta 2 came out (and Smash for 3DS came out about a month after Bayonetta 2 came out), during a time where it was one of the few killer apps that the system had (and very different from the rest of the games that the console had to offer), excitement for the character would have been high.

On top of that, most of the remaining veterans couldn't have made it in for technical (Ice Climbers, Pokemon Trainer) or licensing (Snake) issues, active stage hazards (like Ridley) and assist trophies were likely ruled out, Splatoon didn't come out until after the Smash Ballot started, and K. Rool's popularity seemed to catch them off-guard. (plus, while his specials seemed obvious, his basic moves would have taken more time/effort to come up with, and his votes would have been split with Dixie and possibly Cranky since people agreed that a DK character should be added but couldn't agree on which one)

Given the timing of the ballot's reveal compared to Bayonetta 2's launch, Sega already being involved in Smash, and ruling out characters like Snake, the Ice Climbers, and Ridley, I could see why she did well. I voted for her, but then again, I voted for a lot of characters. (I wanted to see how well the development team could translate her moveset into Smash, and I was hoping that she'd get enough support for Nintendo to fund Bayonetta 3) I didn't speak up about it much online because I figured I'd be bashed for it (as a Snake supporter, I already knew the sort of things people would throw at me), and maybe other people who supported her (or other dark horse candidates) felt the same way.

 

[Flik]

I feel like Byleth and Rean would set up a makeshift teachers' lounge and complain to each other about how they can't get Joker to do his homework.

So my headcanon that joker is a smug spoiled asshole because everyone likes him therefore he thinks is above everyone else isn't that much of a reach?

.... what? stop looking at me like that.

 

[cashregister9]

If Nintendo really wanted to rig a ballot that badly they would have just... not had a ballot.

 

[Michael the Spikester]

People really are never going to let go of the whole "Bayonetta winning the ballot" are they?

 

[TheBeastHimself]

People are thinking I'm some butthurt Bayonetta hater who can't let go of the past or something.

I just remembered she won the ballot. I don't know about the technicalities of the ballot or how it worked, and I never discussed it with people before, so I'm doing it here. And I don't think it's that big of a hot take to question Bayonetta beating all other video game characters.

I wanted a simple discussion and I'm glad people are conversing with me about it, but now I'm gonna have to sift through the occassional

wooooow, some people just CANT get over the past, huh? Still going on about this, hmmmmmmm? Neanderthals.

 

[Cosmic77]

I'm not upset about it anymore because most of the characters I voted for got in Ultimate anyway, but still, if there's data found that suggests Bayonetta was being worked on around the same time the ballot started, then she was likely chosen and negotiated for long before the ballot was announced.

There's no point in staying mad about it, but I do agree that they were a little deceptive with how the ballot worked. In the end, the ballot probably had no impact on Smash 4.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

Something to remember about the ballot is that she was number 1 among realizable fighters. This is important because the context of Smash 4 is different than today, and also they didn't have that much time to develop the character. For example, let's assume Banjo had win, this would give them a very small period of time to talk with Microsoft, and at that time Nintendo/Microsoft relationship was neutral, not bad, but you don't see Microsoft games on the wii u. So Banjo was probbaly moved to Ultimate because Sakurai thought that negotiation for him would be complex.

The "realizable character" rule probably also mean that Ridley couldn't get in even assuming he won considering he was on a stage and Sakurai thought it was impossible at the time. Ice climbers couldn't get in for 3ds limitations. Geno probabl;y had licencing problems too.

Also people tend to vote for characters who could probably be possible. You could argue that "Dante is more popular than Bayo" or "Crash is also very popular" but at the Smash 4 era nobody though those characters really had any chance, so most people probably just voted for characters that where closed to Nintendo (reminder than the ballot was before Cloud announcement).

I agree that the data thing is kind of fishy, but at the same time part of me kind of doubt that Nintendo would straight up lie in or face (although it probably isn't impossible). I do think that Bayonetta's way more popular than what fans gives her credit for. Wii u didn't have a lot of games, so having Bayonetta has an exclusivity was a really big deal.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

I apologize, I'll drop the subject, I wasn't aware there was a controversy around it and I just wanted to share my thoughts. I got a bit frazzled because usually people don't come at me or criticize what I say on here lol. I think there was some miscommunication on my end. My post wasn't meant to be interpreted as an angry rant but it was interpreted that way and people ran with it.

But I made a pretty nasty followup post in return and I'm sorry for that. Either people assume the worst, or I'm bad at getting my message across, likely the latter.

 

[Megadoomer]

I apologize, I'll drop the subject, I wasn't aware there was a controversy around it and I just wanted to share my thoughts. I got a bit frazzled because usually people don't come at me or criticize what I say on here lol. I think there was some miscommunication on my end. My post wasn't meant to be interpreted as an angry rant but it was interpreted that way and people ran with it.

But I made a pretty nasty followup post in return and I'm sorry for that. Either people assume the worst, or I'm bad at getting my message across, likely the latter.

Sorry if I came across as being rude with that "five years" remark; it just gets annoying to support a character, see them get in against all odds, and then have people saying that she shouldn't have been included in the game, or that her inclusion was part of a lie (one that doesn't directly benefit Nintendo; I figure that, if the Smash Ballot was actually rigged, it would have been rigged for a character that Nintendo would directly profit off of rather than a third party character), for roughly half a decade after the fact. (people have been claiming that Bayonetta didn't "really" win the Smash ballot for a long time...)

 

[Guynamednelson]

He behaves pretty differently from Roy despite only having a single different move, and it baffles me that the other Echo Fighters aren't like this

Mostly it's an accident. He has consistent hitboxes to be-ahem-consistent with his daughter, and the fighter he echoes is now highly optimized for being up close, including making his sweetspots sweeter. Get rid of them, plus make his up-B showcase the Ike side that Sakurai thought Chrom had, and people have to improvise.

 

[Arcanir]

I apologize, I'll drop the subject, I wasn't aware there was a controversy around it and I just wanted to share my thoughts. I got a bit frazzled because usually people don't come at me or criticize what I say on here lol. I think there was some miscommunication on my end. My post wasn't meant to be interpreted as an angry rant but it was interpreted that way and people ran with it.

But I made a pretty nasty followup post in return and I'm sorry for that. Either people assume the worst, or I'm bad at getting my message across, likely the latter.

It's really just that the Bayonetta/Ballot conversation is a sore point. After she was revealed a lot of fans threw bile at her because they believed it was impossible for her to beat some of the favorites that were discussed, and that got worse with the datamine revealing that she was worked on early and thus it gave that side more ammo against her. So it's a topic that gets people on edge because usually it's brought up to Bayonetta's detriment and used to insult her and/or her fans, and while you definitely didn't mean it that way dealing with that negativity for years makes it easy to get hot under the collar.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Sorry if I came across as being rude with that "five years" remark; it just gets annoying to support a character, see them get in against all odds, and then have people saying that she shouldn't have been included in the game, or that her inclusion was part of a lie (one that doesn't directly benefit Nintendo; I figure that, if the Smash Ballot was actually rigged, it would have been rigged for a character that Nintendo would directly profit off of rather than a third party character), for roughly half a decade after the fact. (people have been claiming that Bayonetta didn't "really" win the Smash ballot for a long time...)

No not at all I didn't mind that. I made my original post impulsively without thinking "this topic is 5 years old" so I didn't take into account that the subject matter was a bit controversial. I was just confused and trying to make sense of the situation when I remembered Bayonetta won the ballot.

I just feel like I gave a false impression of myself to the thread because I got snappy at one point and I don't want to portray myself in that sense because that's not who I am. I felt frustrated because some people were making comments and brushing off my points when, in my head, I was doing nothing wrong and trying to have a conversation.

Tl;dr: I should've done more research, lmao. I will admit that I'm still kind of baffled because I made my ignorance clear in the original post and some people still thought I was a no-life, attacking a beloved character.

 

[SharkLord]

No not at all I didn't mind that. I made my original post impulsively without thinking "this topic is 5 years old" so I didn't take into account that the subject matter was a bit controversial. I was just confused and trying to make sense of the situation when I remembered Bayonetta won the ballot.

I just feel like I gave a false impression of myself to the thread because I got snappy at one point and I don't want to portray myself in that sense because that's not who I am. I felt frustrated because some people were making comments and brushing off my points when, in my head, I was doing nothing wrong and trying to have a conversation.

Tl;dr: I should've done more research, lmao. I will admit that I'm still kind of baffled because I made my ignorance clear in the original post and some people still thought I was a no-life, attacking a beloved character.

Hey, I've been there before. I suppose we've all had one of those moments where we irrationally snap and act out of character. Don't be too hard on yourself.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If we must argue about this again, I'll just say that Nintendo themselves said that, of the realizable characters, she was the highest ranking character in Europe, which implies two things:

1. Bayonetta didn't actually win the ballot in Europe, they just couldn't (or wouldn't if it was someone like Goku, or one of the Assist Trophies) do the actual winner.
2. If we looked at the worldwide results, Bayonetta would not have been the highest ranking realizable character.

It is worth noting though, that it is entirely possible that Bayonetta was the most evenly ranked among the regions. It would make sense to add a character with results like that rather than the one that actually won worldwide despite placing quite poorly in certain regions. That way, you keep as many people as possible happy.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I feel like people weren’t as upset about Bayonetta as they were about Corrin. Corrin wasn’t tied to the ballot and getting another FE character rubbed many the wrong way, much less so ending with them and Bayonetta.

 

[Perkilator]

I feel like people weren’t as upset about Bayonetta as they were about Corrin. Corrin wasn’t tied to the ballot and getting another FE character rubbed many the wrong way, much less so ending with them and Bayonetta.

So what if it was Azura that came before Bayonetta?

 

[Rie Sonomura]

So what if it was Azura that came before Bayonetta?

Probably still salt, but she’s also a waifu and people simp for her so... probably not as bad as Corrin, at least marginally?

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I feel like people weren’t as upset about Bayonetta as they were about Corrin. Corrin wasn’t tied to the ballot and getting another FE character rubbed many the wrong way, much less so ending with them and Bayonetta.

I really wish we lived in that alternate universe where we got Elma instead of Corrin.

 

[GoodGrief741]

If you need to have started development before the ballot even ended to be considered "realizable", then that's a very limited definition of the word.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Assuming evidence shows Bayo was being worked on mere weeks after the ballot began in April, that seems way too quick of a turnaround for me.

Character negotiations probably take quite a bit of time to fully go through, especially when it comes to third parties like Bayo. Some could even take years, as shown with the likes of Steve. Meetings need to be held, deals need to be made, papers need to be signed etc. I have doubts everything went through in a matter of weeks.

On top of all that, "out of realizable options" is a pretty substantial disclaimer all things considered. It's classification is so subjective that I feel like Nintendo and the Smash team could shape it into whatever they so please.

I have no doubt Bayo was a popular request, I remember seeing a good amount of support for her and I have no doubt she swept Europe, but I think it's clear that ballot was mostly used to collect data for Ultimate and they just used the "Smash 4 ballot winner" thing as a bit of a facade if you will, just to keep the real intentions of the data under wraps

Call it "looking too deep into things" but this is just my thoughts on the matter

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I really wish we lived in that alternate universe where we got Elma instead of Corrin.

Maybe Elma was too tough to code back then, like with Inkling but for different reasons? I wanna believe that, and that Ultimate is her chance...

 

[SharkLord]

Maybe Elma was too tough to code back then, like with Inkling but for different reasons? I wanna believe that, and that Ultimate is her chance...

There's also the fact that Corrin was safer. Fire Emblem was always big in Japan and was on the cusp of becoming a cash cow after Awakening. Xenoblade, on the other hand, was just beginning to regain steam, and the different versions of XC1 hadn't exactly sold gangbusters. I'd imagine that based on past precedent, a Fire Emblem rep would've been more appealing.

 

[PeridotGX]

I really wish we lived in that alternate universe where we got Elma instead of Corrin.

the 3ds melts at the idea

 

[Goombaic]

I never thought of Elma being that much of a gimmicky fighter. Overdrive exists, but I always imagined it as being a transformation Final Smash rather than a meter mechanic. That said, Elma timeline > Corrin timeline.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

I never thought of Elma being that much of a gimmicky fighter. Overdrive exists, but I always imagined it as being a transformation Final Smash rather than a meter mechanic. That said, Elma timeline > Corrin timeline.

I disagree about Overdrive. It could be a gimmick but she doesn’t really need it.

now a Skell Overdrive.... final smash or bust, also make it Ares 90 so you see the Overdrive HUD with the word “LEGION” (Ares’s Overdrive code) and the timer, and cockpit view too

**** this has me wanting to dust off my Wii U and play X again. TOO BAD MY TV IS BUSTED!

 

[Mamboo07]

I really wish we lived in that alternate universe where we got Elma instead of Corrin.

I wish I lived in the same as yours where Kirby gets Bandana Dee and more representation from the modern games.

 

[Goombaic]

**** this has me wanting to dust off my Wii U and play X again. TOO BAD MY TV IS BUSTED!

Good thing the gamepad doesn't need a TV. (:

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Good thing the gamepad doesn't need a TV. (:

Xenoblade X is one of the worst games to play with one screen, sadly.

 

[SKX31]

It's really just that the Bayonetta/Ballot conversation is a sore point. After she was revealed a lot of fans threw bile at her because they believed it was impossible for her to beat some of the favorites that were discussed, and that got worse with the datamine revealing that she was worked on early and thus it gave that side more ammo against her. So it's a topic that gets people on edge because usually it's brought up to Bayonetta's detriment and used to insult her and/or her fans, and while you definitely didn't mean it that way dealing with that negativity for years makes it easy to get hot under the collar.

And honestly, I can only imagine that the conversation got worse when Bayo actually came out. Now, I think it was Cutie Gwen who raised the important point elsewhere that Bayo's primarily OP in Smash 4 because Sakurai went on to focus on Ultimate directly after, leaving Bayo in a permanently powerful state. Which I can absolutely see: Sakurai finalized Ultimate's project plan the day Bayo was released, indicating that Bayo had not been his focus. Likewise, if the team was shifting gears to Ultimate, I can't imagine that the Smash 4 team could test the later DLC characters that extensively.

I mean, , and all have stupidly good Down Bs / mechanics for example. Still though, videos like this popped up not long after release:

And honestly, I can imagine that her post-launch reception kept the Bayonetta/Ballot conversation going. Mind you, Bayonetta got the most ire from Smash 4's competitive environment during 2017 and 2018... when she had been nerfed in 2 consecutive Smash 4 patches. Also, "Release Bayo" was positively insane, partly because grabs could miss her while she was shielding (see gif in the link above). Honestly it's stuff like that which makes me believe the above: that neither Bayo nor Cloud for that matter (I mean, unlimited Limit Break and stupidly good aerials?) simply were tested enough before release. Because the Smash 4 team had likely begun moving on to Ultimate at the point the characters released and could only patch.

Smash 4: When Cloud's Up Air did everything for him. Including his taxes. ​

I feel like people weren’t as upset about Bayonetta as they were about Corrin. Corrin wasn’t tied to the ballot and getting another FE character rubbed many the wrong way, much less so ending with them and Bayonetta.

Well, it's difficult to say who was more hated initially. Both Corrin and Bayo released simulatenously, and Alpharad wasted no time in posting "AFK Corrin". which probably fueled the hatred for Corrin. It did calm down a bit IIRC, but partly because Bayo and Cloud emerged as the consensus Top 2.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Xenoblade X is one of the worst games to play with one screen, sadly.

This. Sound quality and picture quality drop and you gotta go back to TV mode to quick travel which, haha good heckin luck if a high level tyrant spots you.