Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Michael the Spikester]

I thought the Grinch Leak was deemed fake on November 1st? I can't remember exactly though tbh but that's what I recall.

 

[SKX31]

I mean, does it matter if they're not balanced? They're custom characters. In fact, aren't Mii Fighters only allowed in competitive play using specific combinations of moves? If so, then nothing changes really, there would just be more moves banned.

That... might have been me. It sounds like something I'd have said.

In Wii U, Custom Moves in general (before they were banned by the Smash 4 community) was regulated by the Custom Moveset Project, with certain sets allowed pre-ban. The Custom Move ban did hurt the Miis especially, and there was a heated discussion around banning Miis entirely (I don't think that passed). Still, the Miis themselves suffered from a stagnation of data (not helped by their exclusion from the online), so they were unranked in the final tier list.

In Ultimate, the Miis' Custom Moves are allowed by the community - in tournaments the Miis generally have to be named by their moveset number (example: "1111" or a second Mii "2332" etc.) so that the opponent is not caught off guard by a sudden Shot Put or whatever.

As for balancing: Sakurai's outright stated that they take Elite Smash data into account (November 2018), and he's always viewed Smash as a party game first and foremost.

There's a classic problem in multiplayer games of a character being a "n00bstomper" because they can easily capitalize on mistakes. And mistakes are plenty in casual or low-level environments. and can be excellent examples in this category, especially on WiFi. They're difficult to balance since just buffing them might mean they become even more unbearable for the more casual audience.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of casuals (incl. in Elite Smash) already have problems dealing with spammy online because Brawler possesses a strong projectile in Shot Put, several very quick specials (Burning Dropkick and Suplex - both of which are Side Bs - and Head-On Assault - which is a Down B) and fast normals. And coming into a WiFi match, the opponent's not going to know which specials the Mii's using.

SMAASH! Puppy alluded to this: If the entire moveset's customizable, there's a strong risk that someone discovers a casual-killer moveset that quickly spreads - and thus becomes incredibly annoying to deal with since a lot of Mii users use it for "easy Ws". Thus, it becomes unfun to play against such a character and thus people possibly lose interested in Smash if they run into a casual-killer constantly. Worst case scenario: several casual-killer movesets are discovered.

This is a widespread problem as said - examples of "n00bstompers" happening in other games include LoL (Master Yi I believe) and TF2 (Pyro).

Fitting that Grinch leak talk would come back on the Eve of it's death day, Halloween no less.
You could honestly not have a more fitting hoax if you tried.

Hmm... I can't help but wonder what would've happened if Dr. Seuss was a SmashBoards member and wrote a Grinch 2 based on the Grinch Leak.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

So would League of Legends make sense as a TGA Reveal?

Probably?

I thought the Grinch Leak was deemed fake on November 1st? I can't remember exactly though tbh but that's what I recall.

Oh it definitely was; Isaac being shown as an Assist Trophy was all that was needed to kill Grinch tbh

 

[SpectreJordan]

I haven't played much in the way of horror games (it's pretty much Eternal Darkness, Resident Evil 4, and Resident Evil 5, and I'm honestly not sure if the last two count - there's also Dead By Daylight and Friday the 13th, but those aren't as scary since they're either purely multiplayer or the only single-player content has you controlling the killer), but I'd like to see Alexandra Roivas or Leon Kennedy in Smash (or Jill Valentine; I'm just more familiar with what Leon can do, since I've actually played a Resident Evil game where he's playable).

Yes, yes and ROB isn't actually a video game character, he's a piece of technology. That doesn't make a Nokia phone more likely by extension, it just means Nintendo likes showing off hardware.

I've NEVER beat a single horror game. That said, I think the concept of a Resident Evil character is really cool, Chris or Jill having a mix of police martial arts with powerful resource based military equipment would be an interesting concept.

At least I'd like that if they weren't competing with another Capcom series I liked.

You guys gotta play the Resident Evil 2 remake, it’s a masterpiece.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Worst case scenario: several casual-killer movesets are discovered.

This is the most likely scenario if moves from multiple archetypes could be used. Balancing a character that could potentially have the Down Tilt, Forward Aerial, and Up Aerial of a brawler, the Forward Tilt, and Neutral Aerial of a swordfighter, and the Special Moves of a zoner along with many other things could be really difficult to have any sort of balance. And that's before we consider attributes.

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

As for balancing: Sakurai's outright stated that they take Elite Smash data into account (November 2018), and he's always viewed Smash as a party game first and foremost.

That sounds like evidence that Sakurai wouldn't be greatly concerned with unbalanced movesets.

There's a classic problem in multiplayer games of a character being a "n00bstomper" because they can easily capitalize on mistakes. And mistakes are plenty in casual or low-level environments. and are excellent examples in this category, especially on WiFi.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of casuals (incl. in Elite Smash) already have problems dealing with spammy online because Brawler possesses a strong projectile in Shot Put, several very quick specials (Burning Dropkick and Suplex - both of which are Side Bs - and Head-On Assault - which is a Down B) and fast normals. And coming into a WiFi match, the opponent's not going to know which specials the Mii's using.

So there are already n00bstompers in Smash, as well as unpredictable Mii movesets. Was your post supposed to be against more customizable movesets?

@SMAASH! Puppy alluded to this: If the entire moveset's customizable, there's a strong risk that someone discovers a casual-killer moveset that quickly spreads - and thus becomes incredibly annoying to deal with since a lot of Mii users use it for "easy Ws". Thus, it becomes unfun to play against such a character and thus people possibly lose interested in Smash if they run into a casual-killer constantly. Worst case scenario: several casual-killer movesets are discovered.

You've claimed there are already casual-killer movesets in Ultimate. Do you claim that this has had a significant impact on player retention?

If more customizable movesets present a new problem (you haven't shown that they would), there are solutions. Segregating custom characters to "non-competitive" modes would go a long way, and tournament-minded players could still gather data on them there, as well as in private matches. Hell, a competent match-making system would have a toggle to allow or disallow custom characters.

 

[7NATOR]

Wait, if League of Legends gets in, are people gonna boycott Smash,and/or get mad at Nintendo and Sakurai Since people don't like China (and Tencent associated with china) right now

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Wait, if League of Legends gets in, are people gonna boycott Smash,and/or get mad at Nintendo and Sakurai Since people don't like China (and Tencent associated with china) right now

you already got ppl boycotting Steve because of what Notch said even tho he no longer profits off Minecraft

Also it could be worse; it could be a Blizzard rep like tracer while ppl are still pissed about the Blitzchung incident

 

[7NATOR]

you already got ppl boycotting Steve because of what Notch said even tho he no longer profits off Minecraft

Wait is this for real, or was that just people overplaying it?

 

[DuskFleur]

I can't believe some people are so deep in denial that they still think that the Grinch Hoax was really real, even after exactly two years ago, when suplexed it into oblivion.

I get that your favorite(s) shown in the hoax aren't fighters and you deeply want them to be in the game, but, like...move on. The Hoax was meant to troll the fanbase at large, and it succeeded. There's nothing more to it than that. It just so happened to be very elaborate and have several random coincidences "line up" with it.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

2007年のきょう『スーパーマリオギャラクシー』発売!! pic.twitter.com/FHL1nFjCUH

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) November 1, 2020

SMG anniversary

 

[Lamperouge]

2007年のきょう『スーパーマリオギャラクシー』発売!! pic.twitter.com/FHL1nFjCUH

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) November 1, 2020

SMG anniversary

Best 3D Mario, don't @ me.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Also it could be worse; it could be a Blizzard rep like tracer while ppl are still pissed about the Blitzchung incident

I'm reminded of the time Diablo Immortal was announced at Blizzcon and, well, feels bad to be on stage announcing it.

 

[Flik]

That sounds like evidence that Sakurai wouldn't be greatly concerned with unbalanced movesets.

We can also look at final smashes that are too OP like Peach and Daisy or BROKEN BEYOND HUMAN COMPREHENSION like Zelda's.

 

[7NATOR]

On the Mention of SMG, Unironically, It's Sequel was probably one of the Scariest Experiences for me, so Much That I had my Parents sell the game

I went on a Level and I guess I did a Time Trial, because Luigi was all Transparent and everything. I got really scared and Had my Parents sell the game. My Cousin is still salty to this day that I sold it for that reason

Though with that being said, I don't agree with SMG2 being erased from the timeline, especially since it's probably one of , if not the best Mario game ever

 

[Commander_Alph]

I'm reminded of the time Diablo Immortal was announced at Blizzcon and, well, feels bad to be on stage announcing it.

To be fair I think the 'that' incident really didn't affect the choice of character much IF they decided to negotiate.

Also, banning that player and the deleting his account is not the best choice but, I kinda hate that just because Blizzard is associated with China they use that as if they're like their teacher's pet, but really that guy is also at fault by trying to snuck it in when they try to be politically neutral.

 

[Polan]

i saw that league of legends game coming to the switch and my mind immediately drifted to smash. this damn game lives rent free in my mind.

 

[Koopaul]

Also it could be worse; it could be a Blizzard rep like tracer while ppl are still pissed about the Blitzchung incident

Wouldn't it be funny if a Blizzard rep ended up being from Warcraft?

 

[cashregister9]

Wouldn't it be funny if a Blizzard rep ended up being from Warcraft?

Arthas or Thrall would be really cool actually.

 

[Will]

Wouldn't it be funny if a Blizzard rep ended up being from Warcraft?

I mean, are people really gonna say Warcraft wasn't a huge gaming thing?

 

[Shroob]

I mean, are people really gonna say Warcraft wasn't a huge gaming thing?

Makes more sense than a shooter that's seen better days tbh.


Warcraft, and Starcraft, are Blizzard's two BIG founding franchises, with Diablo being slightly below those two, but still a titan in its own right.

Overwatch got people HYPED AS HELL, and nowadays, the playerbase is a shell of its former self that barely reaches big numbers on Twitch for Esports viewership.



Warcraft made WoW, and WoW pretty much revolutionized the MMO genre by opening it up to a more casual market, can't really say many games had as big of an impact on society itself than WoW did in its prime. Back when WoW came out, it really was something like the world had never seen before.

 

[3BitSaurus]

So would League of Legends make sense as a TGA Reveal?

Oh, definitely. Huge game, constant presence at TGA (both with announcements and as a nominee), won three awards last time if you count "Best ESports Player".

Plus it's one of the few places where both League and Smash fans could catch it live without the surprise being spoiled.

 

[GenoDoge]

IMHO Crash and Sora are good options for a TGA reveal.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Happy Grinch Day, everyone!

...Oh wait

 

[Michael the Spikester]

Two years since the Grinch Leak was deemed fake.

Two years of probably what was the most infamous fake leak.

 

[JOJONumber691]

How'd you even make her an Assist Trophy? Cramming unrepresented series into the Assist Trophy role when they wouldn't fit it very well just doesn't work. It worked fine for Bomberman, who actually does the Assist role well with his bombs, but characters like Krystal, Waluigi, and Alucard just feel like the poor man's fighter and scream missed potential.

In Wii U, Custom Moves in general (before they were banned by the Smash 4 community) was regulated by the Custom Moveset Project, with certain sets allowed pre-ban. The Custom Move ban did hurt the Miis especially, and there was a heated discussion around banning Miis entirely (I don't think that passed). Still, the Miis themselves suffered from a stagnation of data (not helped by their exclusion from the online), so they were unranked in the final tier list.

In Ultimate, the Miis' Custom Moves are allowed by the community - in tournaments the Miis generally have to be named by their moveset number (example: "1111" or a second Mii "2332" etc.) so that the opponent is not caught off guard by a sudden Shot Put or whatever.

As for balancing: Sakurai's outright stated that they take Elite Smash data into account (November 2018), and he's always viewed Smash as a party game first and foremost.

There's a classic problem in multiplayer games of a character being a "n00bstomper" because they can easily capitalize on mistakes. And mistakes are plenty in casual or low-level environments. and can be excellent examples in this category, especially on WiFi. They're difficult to balance since just buffing them might mean they become even more unbearable for the more casual audience.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of casuals (incl. in Elite Smash) already have problems dealing with spammy online because Brawler possesses a strong projectile in Shot Put, several very quick specials (Burning Dropkick and Suplex - both of which are Side Bs - and Head-On Assault - which is a Down B) and fast normals. And coming into a WiFi match, the opponent's not going to know which specials the Mii's using.

SMAASH! Puppy alluded to this: If the entire moveset's customizable, there's a strong risk that someone discovers a casual-killer moveset that quickly spreads - and thus becomes incredibly annoying to deal with since a lot of Mii users use it for "easy Ws". Thus, it becomes unfun to play against such a character and thus people possibly lose interested in Smash if they run into a casual-killer constantly. Worst case scenario: several casual-killer movesets are discovered.

This is a widespread problem as said - examples of "n00bstompers" happening in other games include LoL (Master Yi I believe) and TF2 (Pyro).



Hmm... I can't help but wonder what would've happened if Dr. Seuss was a SmashBoards member and wrote a Grinch 2 based on the Grinch Leak.

This is the most likely scenario if moves from multiple archetypes could be used. Balancing a character that could potentially have the Down Tilt, Forward Aerial, and Up Aerial of a brawler, the Forward Tilt, and Neutral Aerial of a swordfighter, and the Special Moves of a zoner along with many other things could be really difficult to have any sort of balance. And that's before we consider attributes.

Wait, if League of Legends gets in, are people gonna boycott Smash,and/or get mad at Nintendo and Sakurai Since people don't like China (and Tencent associated with china) right now

I think if the Mii's come back at ALL next game, which would entirely depend on Developer and if the System even has Miis, botth of which I doubt, they would likely be full on Create-a-Characters MEANT to be banned in Competitive Play and in Normal Online Play, but in the Custom Match they can be toggled on and off. Same with any potential Arenas. Essentially, if you don't want to Fight Them, you don't have to play against them. Just like in Smash 3DS/Wii U. Also, with League, Nintendo likely knows about the China/Tencent Stuff associated with League, which is why I think our South Asian Character could be someone more obscure over here in order to combat this potential boycott. Like Creator from DFO for example.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Also, with League, Nintendo likely knows about the China/Tencent Stuff associated with League, which is why I think our South Asian Character could be someone more obscure over here in order to combat this potential boycott. Like Creator from DFO for example.

Isn't DFO also published by Tencent in China? If so, I don't see that as a good reason for it to be picked over League. Especially when I hardly think Nintendo would care about that kinda backlash.

That said, I don't know much about DFO except that it's popular in Asia. What about western popularity, does anybody know?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

That... might have been me. It sounds like something I'd have said.

Nah I remember who it was, I haven't seen the guy since he made a ****ing fool of himself when Terry leaked

Also it could be worse; it could be a Blizzard rep like tracer while ppl are still pissed about the Blitzchung incident

Nah that'd be fake outrage as Nintendo's also been chummy with China (See the slave labour) and refuses to do stuff based on the fear of awful people getting angry, it's like people saying they don't want Sora because of Disney when there are countless other reasons one could dislike Sora without coming across as a hypocrite

 

[JOJONumber691]

Isn't DFO also published by Tencent in China? If so, I don't see that as a good reason for it to be picked over League. Especially when I hardly think Nintendo would care about that kinda backlash.

That said, I don't know much about DFO except that it's popular in Asia. What about western popularity, does anybody know?

My reasoning is more that DFO is extremely obscure in America, the region where a Tencent Boycott is most likely. Because getting published in China AT ALL most likely means some run in with Tencent. That's why they're so big in the first place. Also, 600 Million Players in 2018 alone. Despite being extremely obscure in America. That's how Nintendo combats a Boycott.

 

[3BitSaurus]

My reasoning is more that DFO is extremely obscure in America, the region where a Tencent Boycott is most likely. Because getting published in China AT ALL most likely means some run in with Tencent. That's why they're so big in the first place. Also, 600 Million Players in 2018 alone. Despite being extremely obscure in America. That's how Nintendo combats a Boycott.

Wait, then it makes no sense at all. It would be way better to have a globally popular series than one that is only popular in a single region.

A more obscure series would likely alienate the audience outside its influence zone. You'd be giving people more reasons to be pissed, not less.

Like I said, I dunno much about DFO, but if we did get a character from it, it's way more likely they would get in on their own merits, rather than to "combat a boycott".

 

[Michael the Spikester]

IMHO Crash and Sora are good options for a TGA reveal.

I suspect if we do get a character reveal it's gonna be someone more middle ground like Ryu Hayabusa.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

You know what else today’s the anniversary of?

The World of Light reveal

hot take: I actually liked WoL, it required you to use your imagination for interpretations of unlocking characters instead of forcing you to select arbitrary choices like SSE

then again SSE had its own merits too

 

[Michael the Spikester]

I myself too liked the World of Light. I would have loved for it to been more like the SSE in terms of more story shown and cutscenes but understand the reason given how many characters which took up a lot of data.

 

[Shroob]

You know what else today’s the anniversary of?

The World of Light reveal

hot take: I actually liked WoL, it required you to use your imagination for interpretations of unlocking characters instead of forcing you to select arbitrary choices like SSE

then again SSE had its own merits too

"What's that? Can't hear you over picking my 3 Level 99 spirits with 3 sub slots and forward smashing to win."

 

[3BitSaurus]

You know what else today’s the anniversary of?

The World of Light reveal

hot take: I actually liked WoL, it required you to use your imagination for interpretations of unlocking characters instead of forcing you to select arbitrary choices like SSE

then again SSE had its own merits too

Tbh, I liked that aspect of SSE. It made you use specific characters in the first time, but afterwards you could go with anyone.

The only thing I kinda disliked about SSE is that some stages felt way longer than they should be, while others had pacing problems.

I think Adventure stages could use another try.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

You know what else today’s the anniversary of?

The World of Light reveal

hot take: I actually liked WoL, it required you to use your imagination for interpretations of unlocking characters instead of forcing you to select arbitrary choices like SSE

then again SSE had its own merits too

WoL is good but it can’t hold a candle to SSE. The platforming over over-world hopping and a bonkers story over pretty much none at all aside, SSE had the main thing that’s been missing from both Ultimate and Smash 4. Character interaction. It’s hard to say that this is the biggest crossover when the characters in it don’t so much as acknowledge each other aside from the trailers and the one WoL opening cinematic. Yet Brawl has, what, close to 50 cutscenes with all the characters interacting with each other.

Yeah, I don’t think WoL comes close but it’s still ok if not really repetitive.

 

[PeridotGX]

People talk about SSE, World of Light, and Melee Adventure mode, but nobody talks about this 10/10 mode

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Guess I liked WoL more than others cause it reminded me of Dissidia, I loved 012

gave off Cosmos vs Chaos vibes except both deities were objectively bad guys

 

[Deleted member]

Hot take but I like WOL wayyy more than Subspace Emissary. Don't get me wrong... Subspace is pretty fun for the cutscenes... but that's the thing. The cutscenes are really the only draw to the mode(for me anyway), and the actual mode itself is super boring and tedious platforming with the same 5 enemies copypasted every 2 seconds. In short; it's fun to watch, not fun to play. I feel WOL strikes a better balance between the two, what with how there's still somewhat of a story(but told in a bit more subtle way) while at the same time traveling the newborn world is really fun, save for a couple dozen annoying battles here and there.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

IMHO Crash and Sora are good options for a TGA reveal.

Sora would be a hella good TGA reveal