Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Speed Weed]

Something new to talk about.

What characters do you guys are overrated in terms of chances.

Dante certainly comes to mind. All started because of those tweets a few years back regarding him. Don't get me wrong, he has a shot getting in but not as likely as folks are making it out to be.

a gen 8 pokemon

see, most characters in smash speculation have ups and downs. their percieved likeliness changes with new developments and as such they tend to weave in and out of discussion accordingly. gen 8 is different in that regard.

it's almost rasputinian because once again, while other characters tend to have their percieved likeliness change, no matter how much might be going against a gen 8 pokemon, no matter how much it's figuratively beaten and stabbed and poisoned, people will keep insisting over and over that gen 8 is inevitable and a lock and such just because "haha le shill pick". it's held to a completely different standard than any other character and honestly it's one of the things in current smash spec that get on my nerves the most.

 

[Commander_Alph]

It's not about mascots or frontrunners, it's just that it's old-school industry innovator and NES star Ryu Hayabusa. Castlevania is dead and Bomberman is alive but hoo boy look how that turned out, huh?

Those Warriors would probably make some good Mii costumes, though, their designs are peak kino.

Why look at Castlevania when our first Konami character is Snake which by the time he joined Brawl is the face of Konami. Also why do you think NES game is always being put at a high pedestal than other console which felt. I dunno, really bias?

Also the Mii Costume could be said to Hayabusa which by design itself is simplistic and really could occupy multiple classes (except Gunner) and fit perfectly as a Deluxe Costume. You want to use his outfit on Mii Swordfighter? BOOM! he will use his katana. Oh, you want to put his costume on Brawler? BAM! no sword only fist and even one of Brawler's special is similar to the Izuna Drop.

 

[BlondeLombax]

a gen 8 pokemon

see, most characters in smash speculation have ups and downs. their percieved likeliness changes with new developments and as such they tend to weave in and out of discussion accordingly. gen 8 is different in that regard.

it's almost rasputinian because once again, while other characters tend to have their percieved likeliness change, no matter how much might be going against a gen 8 pokemon, no matter how much it's figuratively beaten and stabbed and poisoned, people will keep insisting over and over that gen 8 is inevitable and a lock and such just because "haha le shill pick". it's held to a completely different standard than any other character and honestly it's one of the things in current smash spec that get on my nerves the most.

I think that the Smash development team is actually going to avoid a Gen 8 Pokemon solely based on the controversy surrounding its games. Byleth was already contested enough, but at the very least their game achieved universal acclaim.

 

[Will]

Why look at Castlevania when our first Konami character is Snake which by the time he joined Brawl is the face of Konami.

Because that wasn't a factor of legacy, that was just Kojima begging the man to throw him in.

Also why do you think NES game is always being put at a high pedestal than other console which felt. I dunno, really bias?

**** man let me check what console this game is on.

Alright, now let me check what Ninja Gaiden was originally on.

Yeah... yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

Also the Mii Costume could be said to Hayabusa which by design itself is simplistic and really could occupy multiple classes (except Gunner) and fit perfectly as a Deluxe Costume. You want to use his outfit on Mii Swordfighter? BOOM! he will use his katana. Oh, you want to put his costume on Brawler? BAM! no sword only fist and even one of Brawler's special is similar to the Izuna Drop.

Yep, but it won't happen if Koei's getting a character bundled with it, because Hayabusa will be too busy occupying Fighter #78.

No seriously though, there should be no war between Hayabusa and a Warriors character like how Microsoft had Banjo and Steve wars. If fate is to repeat itself, it looks like Hayabusa is winning this one.

 

[ceterisparibus]

Thing is, I don't have to. Onus is on you to prove otherwise. It's almost like you expect legacy to be a quantifiable quality. When people discuss great NES games, they mention Ninja Gaiden. When people discuss great character action games, they mention Ninja Gaiden. When people talk about hard-as-nails franchises, they mention Ninja Gaiden. That's its legacy: to still be remembered, and fondly remembered at that, as a classic and one of gaming's greats. There isn't any hard statistic I can point to for this, and yet I doubt that you've ever encountered any evidence to the contrary. Because that's how widespread its acclaim is.

You want me to make up sales numbers comparable to Castlevania's? They're not! You cannot seriously pretend that a franchise with 6 games sell as much as one with dozens. Ninja Gaiden's probably got better average sales because of its new games, if it matters. But I don't think this is a series that would get in on sales anyway.

As for impact, it's already been mentioned, so I see no point in repeating it.

It's pretty funny that you used Casablanca as your example but ignore that its a film that sold incredibly well over a long period of time and had many, many awards and acclaim given to it. Which poor NG isn't. But moving on....

You do know the onus is on the person who made the claim....which is you right? Honestly, at this point of time the fact that you just said legacy can't be quantifiable - but they can. Big franchises have huge legacies precisely because of the number of successful entries that they have over a long period of time, and specific games (think FF7 or Street fighter 2) can be truly said to have a lasting impact because of their popularity...which is tied to sales and acclaim!

Mind you, i'm not even saying whether NG is a good game or not. A good game doesn't necessarily need to sell to be good. But just based on sales and reach its pretty clear NG is nowhere near its compatriots in smash in terms of impact on the gaming landscape and that's based on facts.

tldr; good games doesn't mean that it has a "legacy". The reach, mainstream popularity and influence of said game is the thing that counts.

i was also thinking of pointing out that if said franchise truly was popular they would have had many more games or a huge trilogy but that's just mean at this point

Wait, people are really arguing that DOA has a bigger impact than NG because of sales numbers after the latter went dormant?

Like, with Warriors it would at least be understandable, because it spawned a whole subgenre. But DOA?

...Really?

You do know my point is that DOA is much more popular and hence, is more likely to be known by the mainstream? Or is that somehow worse than "eh i dunno cutscenes and ehh game was hard i guess" which is so incredibly vague.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Honestly the ESRB changes now has me doubting a lot of m rated series in general being represented. Not just because of the mii costume thing, but it affecting spirit events and spirit boards for rated m series as well. Resident Evil is likely a victim of this. The monsters of Resident Evil are very NOT child friendly, especially Nemesis. And then you have Silent Hill.....

The ESRB is an American ratings board. Smash Ultimate is a game made by Japanese people.

ESRB's changes are just stuff that the localizations have to weave around, that's all. Assuming Sakurai and the rest of the devs would be like "Nope, can't show that to anyone in the world because the American ratings board will get really pissy about it" is just ridiculous, imo.

And besides, those changes only apply to video presentations; displaying fighters by series in the official website still shows stuff like Bayonetta, Metal Gear Solid and Persona logos. So does the stage select screen in the actual game.

Heck, saying the games by name is still allowed in the in-game news and stuff like the Spirit list. It's only the logos that are an issue... which makes the change even dumber because

A. What's the point if only the logo is a problem?
B. Google exists, so any change would be dumb as a result of that.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I think that the Smash development team is actually going to avoid a Gen 8 Pokemon solely based on the controversy surrounding its games. Byleth was already contested enough, but at the very least their game achieved universal acclaim.

Controversy literally doesn't matter when Nintendo's the richest company of Japan and still profits off of slave labour as we speak.

Also this is like the third person to try and act like Ninja Gaiden's not an influential franchise in a week. Reminds me of when people kept trying to devalue Terry and SNK, only difference is that Terry only got that treatment when the SNK trademark leaked

 

[Commander_Alph]

No seriously though, there should be no war between Hayabusa and a Warriors character like how Microsoft had Banjo and Steve wars. If fate is to repeat itself, it looks like Hayabusa is winning this

I'm asking this on a series note, we got plenty of NES character and people still think that a game that debuted in NES is more "iconic". Also the fact that Banjo is in first than Steve is not just because he is an old school character and the voices that wanting him is more bigger than Hayabusa, it's because that Rare used to work with Nintendo and even though they were acquired by Microsoft it's not like they have to cut ties with Nintendo when releasing their new game cause almost all of their old games are in the Nintendo system and the fact that according to, Sourcegaming, the request for a Rare Ltd. Character date back to the early 90s. Also, this is the last Fighter Pass that we got and there is mostly not going to be another one and unlike Microsoft, Koei-Tecmo is not that gigantic as them.

 

[3BitSaurus]

You do know my point is that DOA is much more popular and hence, is more likely to be known by the mainstream? Or is that somehow worse than "eh i dunno cutscenes and ehh game was hard i guess" which is so incredibly vague.

...You do know the only reason DOA appears to be more popular is because it's still getting games while NG isn't, right?

It is worse, because if we're talking general, "mainstream" appeal, DOA doesn't even compare to fighting games like Street Fighter, KoF, Tekken or MK. Yet Ninja Gaiden still gets brought up by people who know their gaming history.

If your problem is that its influence is "vague"... well, we better get rid of half of Smash's roster then, because a lot of them are historical not because of industry-breaking things, but rather smaller influences.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

You do know my point is that DOA is much more popular and hence, is more likely to be known by the mainstream? Or is that somehow worse than "eh i dunno cutscenes and ehh game was hard i guess" which is so incredibly vague.

And yet they picked a Fatal Fury character (Terry) for SNK instead of King of Fighters (Kyo).

Heck, Banjo being in the game before Steve and Master Chief also applies because there's no way you can reasonably claim Banjo-Kazooie is bigger than Minecraft or Halo.

Popularity isn't everything when making the selection process. Sakurai himself said that in the Terry presentation.

 

[Will]

I'm asking this on a series note, we got plenty of NES character and people still think that a game that debuted in NES is more "iconic".

What's the question? You're just spitting facts.

Also the fact that Banjo is in first than Steve is not just because he is an old school character and the voices that wanting him is more bigger than Hayabusa, it's because that Rare used to work with Nintendo and even though they were acquired by Microsoft it's not like they have to cut ties with Nintendo when releasing their new game cause almost all of their old games are in the Nintendo system and the fact that according to, Sourcegaming, the request for a Rare Ltd. Character date back to the early 90s.

But Banjo was smaller than Minecraft in every way imaginable, for a success standpoint Steve would've been the go-to as I then believed, and after my eyes were opened, I can see nothing but a win here for the ninja man.

Also, this is the last Fighter Pass that we got and there is mostly not going to be another one and unlike Microsoft, Koei-Tecmo is not that gigantic as them.

Doesn't change the fact that Hayabusa will be the winner in the Koei-Tecmo selection.

 

[Dinoman96]

To be fair, the Banjo argument doesn't hold as strong now because it now looks like Nintendo originally approached Microsoft about putting just Minecraft in Smash, and Banjo was more of a by product/bonus of those negotiations.

Banjo didn't really "beat" Steve. In reality, Steve was the ticket that got both of them included.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

To be fair, the Banjo argument doesn't hold as strong now because it now looks like Nintendo originally approached Microsoft about putting just Minecraft in Smash, and Banjo was more of a by product/bonus of those negotiations.

Banjo didn't really "beat" Steve. In reality, Steve was the ticket that got both of them included.

Either way, it's still ridiculous to gatekeep Hayabusa simply because "DOA is more popular"

Even more so when there was a time people actually considered KOS-MOS as a Namco rep because of a fake leak.

 

[Commander_Alph]

What's the question? You're just spitting facts.

Why is everyone keep wanting a character just because they debuted on NES? If they're really that important might as well fill in the remaining DLC with NES character.

Doesn't change the fact that Hayabusa will be the winner in the Koei-Tecmo selection.

But Banjo was smaller than Minecraft in every way imaginable, for a success standpoint Steve would've been the go-to as I then believed, and after my eyes were opened, I can see nothing but a win here for the ninja man.

Also, saying Banjo Kazooie is smaller than Minecraft is like saying the people that consume rice is smaller than burgers when Smash is a "Nintendo game" and Banjo is BIG with Nintendo fans hence his inclusion in Smash being first. This also apply to Koei Tecmo rep in Smash in the form of Assist Trophy from the Fatal Frame series considering the recent game is half owned by Nintendo. So yeah, Hayabusa being the next Banjo doesn't apply anymore and luck isn't always by your side.

Also, saying Hayabusa win by default is such a weak ass argument that didn't even add anything to his series being overshadowed by Dynasty Warriors in modern time and yet at least Dynasty Warriors make the name for themselves by actually creating a subgenre and a tool for them to collaborate with other company than just being old school and be well known.

 

[TwiceEXE]

...You do know the only reason DOA appears to be more popular is because it's still getting games while NG isn't, right?

I mean... that's how it works. That's like saying Mario is only popular because there are a ton of games in his series, if you look at just the arcade game Mario Bros then he actually isn't popular at all.

Let me be clear, I'm not at all saying that DOA is more likely than NG for Smash. I just hate seeing this board go "Well if NG sold better and was more popular so that they made more games, then it would be a better selling and more popular series". That's just stating the obvious, but we don't live in a hypothetical world where that happened. We live in the world where NG is a dead franchise that has a pretty iconic gaming character. We've seen those types get added into Smash repeatedly but there is no reason to oversell Ryu's case by pretending the franchise is bigger than it is.

 

[Mamboo07]

Definitely Geno.

Same.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Also, saying Hayabusa win by default is such a weak ass argument that didn't even add anything to his series being overshadowed by Dynasty Warriors in modern time and yet at least Dynasty Warriors make the name for themselves by actually creating a subgenre and a tool for them to collaborate with other company than just being old school and be well known.

Don't think there's anymore to discuss about whether Ninja Gaiden is iconic or not.

 

[Brother AJ]

DOA's popularity does almost nothing but bolster Ryu's chances in my eyes. Considering he's, ya know, a main character in the game. As I said before, he's also made several DW appearances. He could easily be considered Mr. Koei Tecmo.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I mean... that's how it works. That's like saying Mario is only popular because there are a ton of games in his series, if you look at just the arcade game Mario Bros then he actually isn't popular at all.

Let me be clear, I'm not at all saying that DOA is more likely than NG for Smash. I just hate seeing this board go "Well if NG sold better and was more popular so that they made more games, then it would be a better selling and more popular series". That's just stating the obvious, but we don't live in a hypothetical world where that happened. We live in the world where NG is a dead franchise that has a pretty iconic gaming character. We've seen those types get added into Smash repeatedly but there is no reason to oversell Ryu's case by pretending the franchise is bigger than it is.

That's the thing - you've got people here deadass saying that NG isn't iconic at all. Meanwhile, I don't think any of us are pretending NG is somehow bigger than Mega Man or what have you, but the notion that Ryu is somehow less important than a DOA character is downright bizarre.

And I'd argue that argument isn't hypothetical at all, considering we have several examples of "dead" or "dying" franchises that are iconic enough to get into Smash before their active counterparts - sometimes more iconic than them, in fact.

 

[Will]

Why is everyone keep wanting a character just because they debuted on NES? If they're really that important might as well fill in the remaining DLC with NES character.

Because the Ninja Gaiden trilogy is a good trilogy of games? Do you think I worship the console every day lmao

Also, saying Hayabusa win by default is such a weak ass argument that didn't even add anything to his series being overshadowed by Dynasty Warriors in modern time and yet at least Dynasty Warriors make the name for themselves by actually creating a subgenre and a tool for them to collaborate with other company than just being old school and be well known.

It's not a weak argument, because there is no argument. He'll just get in first. If you wanna die on a hill with a raging boner for Dynasty Warriors, go for it.

 

[BlondeLombax]

I can’t help but feel responsible for the current debate, despite having posted about it, like, a week ago. I’m so sorry.

 

[TwiceEXE]

That's the thing - you've got people here deadass saying that NG isn't iconic at all. Meanwhile, I don't think any of us are pretending NG is somehow bigger than Mega Man or what have you, but the notion that Ryu is somehow less important than a DOA character is downright bizarre.

I don't agree with those people either. I think people are arguing in an attempt to be right instead of trying to step back and look at things in totality.

I think Ryu is the most likely KT character by a good amount. I think he is iconic. I also think he is a lot less likely than most appear to believe.

But I guess it's just standard Smash Bros wishcasting. Everyone has opinions and they are all bad (including mine).

 

[Commander_Alph]

Say anything you want but I bet you will literally tear you clothes up if he ended up as a Mii Costume. Also saying that there is no argument against Hayabusa is a literal definition of you worshipping the series. Well, I guess I'll be dying with Dynasty Warriors by my side

but at least I make a pretty truthful and factual argument that Dynasty Warriors has done more good deed to Koei-Tecmo than Ninja Gaiden and you still don't listen.

DOA's popularity does almost nothing but bolster Ryu's chances in my eyes. Considering he's, ya know, a main character in the game. As I said before, he's also made several DW appearances. He could easily be considered Mr. Koei Tecmo.

Several but he only appear as just a cameo (not including DoA and Warriors Orochi 4), and the other one is an all star game that comprised of Koei Tecmo other game and not just Ninja Gaiden, also the title uses the Dynasty Warriors style of logo and even has the word 'Warriors' in it which is the series that hosted the crossover. So yeah that title of "Mr. Koei Tecmo" goes to Zhao Yun/Dynasty Warriors not the impostor that is Hayabusa/Ninja Gaiden.

but really if you think about it, it's kinda weird that Hayabusa so far only appear in DoA and DW, Koei-Tecmo's game that is relevant in modern time, is this a sign of Hayabusa is desperate for relevancy?

 

[Deleted member]

I thought the main character for the DoA series was the surplus of gargantuan melons.

 

[Commander_Alph]

I thought the main character for the DoA series was the surplus of gargantuan melons.

Which one, because all of them have giant bazoomba

 

[XorahnGaia]

Some details from Sakurai's column on Famitsu leaked. It's about Steve.

 

[Peeton]

Yeah, I do wish Smash would do more when it comes to character interactions or having actual story beyond one cutscene. It's why I can appreciate Brawl's Subspace Emissary to some extent. Say what you will about its gameplay (I didn't care for it either), but actually seeing these characters interact in a way that wasn't just them kicking the crap out of eachother was nice.

Hot take or controversial opinion or whatever you want to call it, but I could actually handle having a smaller roster or some cuts if it meant we could see these kind of special interactions or could get to see some more life to whatever characters actually do end up and remain in a Smash 6, or another subspace-esque mode with actual story. Of course there would be various other factors that would determine how I'd feel about cuts or a smaller roster, but that isn't entirely the point of my post so I'll just leave it at that.

I actually REALLY liked subspaces gameplay. I didn’t like how they slowed all the characters down for whatever reason, but actually using stickers to make the characters better and platforming and exploring and stuff was really really fun and I miss it so much

 

[3BitSaurus]

Some details from Sakurai's column on Famitsu leaked. It's about Steve.

Huh. Was the music really that hard of a time? Might be the first time we hear of them dropping arrangements in progress.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I'd love for Habayusa to get in and then have a whole series of ninja themed Mii costumes to go with him: Joe Musashi, The Messenger, Gray Fox, Strider Hiryu, & Rikimaru.

 

[Peeton]

I think everyone isn’t really thinking of Lu Bu from dynasty warriors. I’m pretty sure he’d be the smash character since he’s very popular and dynasty warriors has wayyy more games than Ninja Gaiden. Honestly I’m really tired of hearing that stupid ninja’s name. If he gets in, whatever I’m sure he’s gonna be cool. But if he doesn’t get in, gets spirited, it becomes I will laugh and laugh and laugh. People won’t shut up about him and then they’ll finally be quiet. It’s annoying

 

[SNEKeater]

I'm seriously chuckling at how some people seem to suddenly hate Hayabusa, things like "the impostor that is Hayabusa/Ninja Gaiden." are pretty funny lol

 

[PeridotGX]

I keep seeing Puyo Puyo mentioned every now and then. I'm playing Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine right now, does that technically count?

"American fans might be wondering why FP8, Dr. Eggman, is so small and is summoning tiny blobs and has Kirby for an alt. In the Japanese version of the game, we added a different character, called Arle Nadja, but we figured American audiences might be more familiar with the localized version of her games."

 

[JOJONumber691]

a gen 8 pokemon

see, most characters in smash speculation have ups and downs. their percieved likeliness changes with new developments and as such they tend to weave in and out of discussion accordingly. gen 8 is different in that regard.

it's almost rasputinian because once again, while other characters tend to have their percieved likeliness change, no matter how much might be going against a gen 8 pokemon, no matter how much it's figuratively beaten and stabbed and poisoned, people will keep insisting over and over that gen 8 is inevitable and a lock and such just because "haha le shill pick". it's held to a completely different standard than any other character and honestly it's one of the things in current smash spec that get on my nerves the most.

Imagine if we get a Pokemon in this Pass, but it's from Gen 9 or Pokken instead of Gen 8 lol.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

I can’t help but feel responsible for the current debate, despite having posted about it, like, a week ago. I’m so sorry.

Shame on you! You brought discussion into this place! What do you think this is, a newcomer speculation thread?

 

[JOJONumber691]

Huh. Was the music really that hard of a time? Might be the first time we hear of them dropping arrangements in progress.

Well, time to hunt for some Lost Media!

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Speaking of fighters with swords...

View attachment 290513





What? You thought I was going to suggest Ragna?

Thats not Muramasa

 

[drag0nscythe]

View attachment 290530

Don't think there's anymore to discuss about whether Ninja Gaiden is iconic or not.

No really a credible source. I could say Missile is one of the most famous dogs in gaming, and I am pretty sure it could show up as a wiki or an article or something. pretty sure most would not know who Missile was.

The top 100 ign games article is much better. most people seem to qote it and NG is like 27 on there or something.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

Its almost like Sword and Sheild have a lot of positive qualities when you look past certain aspects.

if only VA was a thing, it would be better and less awkward

 

[MrJudd]

Quick question: supposedly, there is a new ad for 7-11 since Monday, but I don't know if anyone has gotten a picture of it. Did someone see it, and if so what was featured in it? If not, then where we can look for it?

 

[SNEKeater]

Partner Showcase today, maybe?

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