Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Cosmic77]

The rate we're getting Spirits hasn't changed very much since Ultimate launched.

I think people are getting to a point where they expect something new literally every month. If we had gotten a ton of first-party titles throughout the year, then yeah, we might've gotten more Spirits. That hasn't been the case though, so I don't think the slow drip of new Spirits should come as a surprise to anyone unless you were expecting third-party Spirits every other week.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Speaking of fighters with Japanese swords

Just sayin'

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Speaking of fighters with Japanese swords
View attachment 290501
Just sayin'

Who dis

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

Who dis

The Stranger from a little action game called Furi.

It's a fantastic experience, but it calls for a lot of precision with timing, so it's definitely not for everyone.

 

[DarthEnderX]

There are way more Nintendo classic characters for that list.

I'd say it's missing Bubble Bobble, Dragon Quest and Bomberman(although, NES Bomberman looks like ****).

And Guybush > Bernard. Just putting that out there.

You're not wrong...but Monkey Island isn't on the checklist. I'll allow it as long as Guybrush comes with Maniac Mansion spirits.

Maniac Mansion is literally just one game from the 80s, though.

ACTUALLY, two games. Though the sequel is called Day Of The Tentacle.

And like, Ninja Gaiden may have hit its peak in the NES era, but placing it on the same level as two incredibly minor Kirby characters is incredibly disingenuous.

ACTUALLY, they had their own series before before Kirby even existed.

Double Dragon is considered to be incredibly important to the beat 'em up genre at the very least.

Even though it's practically a reskin of the first Kunio game, with two players.

I disagree. Saying he is on the same plain as Simon is not even close. Not even on the same level as Terry.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

pic.twitter.com/5AsXAuNDyG

— 桜井 政博 / Masahiro Sakurai (@Sora_Sakurai) October 28, 2020

a e s t h e t i c

 

[Commander_Alph]

I've seen a suggestion that they'd have the same control scheme as their actual games, so A is the combo button and B is the strong attack/finisher. I'd be down for that, provided we still have directional inputs and it's not just those two buttons and that's it.

tbh, that could actually work, granted it is been so long since I played a Warriors game but a good idea is by having all of his normal attack capable of hitting multiple enemies just like in the base game. sort of like a grounded version of Bayonetta.

 

[Commander_Alph]

Even if the ninja gaiden series bombed it’s not stopping him from being a fighter. They could chose ryu instead because he’s one of the remaining few nes icons yet to appear as well as mostly him being a legacy pick like terry

You know that legacy isn't everything right? Just because Sakurai has an NES bias doesn't mean Koei is on the same page as him, heck there is literally a game in NES called Romance of the Three Kingdom in which kick start the Dynasty Warriors series until it is became successful.

Also, I'm asking your thoughts IF that ever happened.

sorry for double posting, I thought that my message isn't loading

 

[ceterisparibus]

The Ninja Gaiden series used to be one of THE hard games before Dark Souls came along. It’s one of the most talked about NES era AND Xbox era games. You talk to people who grew up in those times and they’ve atleast heard of Ninja Gaiden. It’s not on the level of Dragon Quest or Minecraft but it’s still a pretty renown character. I don’t think people would be talking about Hayabusa for so long if his series didn’t leave some sort of impact.

Ok so "hard game". "talked about" and "heard about".
You see, that's the problem - almost all the "evidence" I've seen provided is anecdotal at best. Compared to the current behemoth that is Dragon Quest (the amount of media crossover and content, sales, and successful entries) to the "dead but had a lasting impact" of Megaman/Castlevania with over 20 games per franchise and a whole lot of sales compared to NG.

Look, you people want or think Hayabusa is likely, sure. I don't have a problem with that. Just don't use flimsy or at best, anecdotal evidence to back up your claims. I don't even think the dude is unlikely but the amount of stretching to try to elevate NG as the "last remaining NES star" to be included is baffling when there's a league of difference between said compatriots in smash.

"What did Casablanca do for movies? It's just an old forgotten relic that nobody cares about"

Well it's still fondly remembered by many and seen as a classic. It still ho-

"Those people are just an echo chamber of the toxic old movie culture. You're just biased. Show me what influence it had"

It started a trend of WWII movies-

"Nuh-uh, it wasn't the first war movie. The fact that you have to look for such specific things to praise is proof that it has no legacy"

It made big stars out of actors such as Humphrey Bogart and Ingrid-

"They're both dead, clearly its impact hasn't lived until today, therefore it's worthless"

Every time I read the... "argument" that Ninja Gaiden isn't iconic I just groan.

Cool, now instead of strawmanning try to actually show that NG has a legacy or impact or sales that is compatible to its NES compatriots in smash.

 

[Commander_Alph]

Look, you people want or think Hayabusa is likely, sure. I don't have a problem with that. Just don't use flimsy or at best, anecdotal evidence to back up your claims. I don't even think the dude is unlikely but the amount of stretching to try to elevate NG as the "last remaining NES star" to be included is baffling when there's a league of difference between said compatriots in smash.

not to mentioned even if the series got revived in the form of a Hack n' Slash the game is still overshadowed by the titan of that genre being DMC and even beaten by Bayonetta that was released 5 years after Ninja Gaiden (Xbox) and with just 2 installment gets her chance to be featured as a playable character.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

a e s t h e t i c

tfw you make a stage absolutely beautiful but the camera is at a perpetual angle that doesn't do it justice.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Damn I guess Ryu Hayabusa was never on a plug and play console that features the most iconic NES games of all time, Castlevania was there but I guess that is just something that has never happened with Ninja Gaiden /s

100% this.

Any 3rd party game on the NES or SNES Classic is there because it's iconic.

If we insist on NES possibilieis.

We do...

 

[7NATOR]

not to mentioned even if the series got revived in the form of a Hack n' Slash the game is still overshadowed by the titan of that genre being DMC and even beaten by Bayonetta that was released 5 years after Ninja Gaiden (Xbox) and with just 2 installment gets her chance to be featured as a playable character.

To be Fair with Bayonetta, Nintendo Funds her games, so it's in their best Interest to Push her. Plus she "Allegedly" won the ballot. Even if you don't believe she did (because I Don't) she still was requested Character during Smash 4.

DMC Though has more merits than Ninja Gaiden in terms of Most Merits I would say. Ninja Gaiden has the Advantage of Koei's good relation with Nintendo and the NES Trilogy, along with Probably a Easier moveset to Translate to Smash (in a balanced form), but DMC is more relevant, Popular, requested to be in Smash, etc

 

[SharkLord]

tfw you make a stage absolutely beautiful but the camera is at a perpetual angle that doesn't do it justice.

What really irks me is that you have to deal with the shoddy midis every time you want to play the stage.

sugiyama whyyyyyyyyyy

 

[Rie Sonomura]

What really irks me is that you have to deal with the shoddy midis every time you want to play the stage.

sugiyama whyyyyyyyyyy

Tfw we coulda got that epic ass orchestra from the trailer but nooooOOOOOOO

 

[ZelDan]

My problem with the whole "last NES star" line used to describe Ryu hayubasa is that it isn't even true and completely ignores some other hugely iconic NES games/franchises. I mean hello:

 

[SharkLord]

My problem with the whole "last NES star" line used to describe Ryu hayubasa is that it isn't even true and completely ignores some other hugely iconic NES games/franchises. I mean hello:

At this point I've just grown to see the old brutal NES game guys as a club. Maybe with some brutally difficult modern game people like the Dark Souls cast as honorary members.

 

[ceterisparibus]

not to mentioned even if the series got revived in the form of a Hack n' Slash the game is still overshadowed by the titan of that genre being DMC and even beaten by Bayonetta that was released 5 years after Ninja Gaiden (Xbox) and with just 2 installment gets her chance to be featured as a playable character.

I mean, that kind of priority doesn't really matter to me because there are lots of reasons behind a selection. I can still see NG getting in over DmC despite the latter being much more popular but that's a personal opinion and a whole different subject altogether.

My problem with the whole "last NES star" line used to describe Ryu hayubasa is that it isn't even true and completely ignores some other hugely iconic NES games/franchises. I mean hello:

Precisely. There's a world of difference between those (including NG) and Castlevania/Megaman or even DQ (lol). Sure, i don't doubt we'll get to them eventually due to the shrinking pool of candidates but its important to note that distinction.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I've mainly been watching this thread discuss everything around Hayabusa, and I do think people overestimate him by saying Ryu Hayabusa is the face of Koei-Tecmo. He's more like Mega-Man

I consider Megaman the face of Capcom.

What characters do you guys are overrated in terms of chances.

Reimu and KOS-MOS.

 

[Commander_Alph]

To be Fair with Bayonetta, Nintendo Funds her games, so it's in their best Interest to Push her. Plus she "Allegedly" won the ballot. Even if you don't believe she did (because I Don't) she still was requested Character during Smash 4.

DMC Though has more merits than Ninja Gaiden in terms of Most Merits I would say. Ninja Gaiden has the Advantage of Koei's good relation with Nintendo and the NES Trilogy, along with Probably a Easier moveset to Translate to Smash (in a balanced form), but DMC is more relevant, Popular, requested to be in Smash, etc

But, right now what game does Koei Tecmo trying to push today? If you answer the Dynasty Warriors series you are right with Scramble and Age of Calamity coming to Switch and even they collaborated with The Pokemon Company before by making a Pokemon X Samurai Warriors game called Pokemon Conquest, also the gameplay of Dynasty Warriors has more uniqueness in terms of a moveset that could translate into Smash considering almost every DLC has some sort of gimmick or different style of gameplay.

It' just that right now Koei is too busy pushing Dynasty Warriors popularity and it wouldn't feel farfetched for them to pick Zhao Yun over Hayabusa.

 

[NonSpecificGuy]

We’ve done this time and time again. To absolutely no avail. There’s always the “Didn’t leave a lasting impact” debate that we saw with Banjo. The “dead franchise debate” we saw with Mega Man. There’s always the “not as important as another character” we saw with Bayonetta. There’s always the “not relevant enough debate” like with Simon. There’s always a “reason” the character is unimportant or undeserving. We can throw reasons out every which way but if someone has accepted that those reasons aren’t good enough for them then they’ve already convinced themselves that they can’t be convinced.

However since it was asked you can easily scroll down the Wikipedia page for NG1 to Reception and see why NG1 is praised to this day. You could even do the same for NG2 and NG3. There’s a reason the NES games are held in such high regard and the simple reviews on the Wikipedia page will tell you why. You’re not going to find any sales data here though. Not that that really matters all that much since Bayonetta is in there. Mega Man 11? Sold barely over a million and Capcom considered it a success. Xbox Ninja Gaiden has sold at least 2 million and Sigma has probably sold close to a million.

That’s without mentioning the fact that Hayabusa as a character is actually more iconic than his actual games which I actually did a full write up about here:

So I posted this in a thread that was a little less appropriate but I want to repost it here because I hope I can shine a little light on why many people consider Ryu Hayabusa as iconic as they do.

in response to a post saying that NG wasn’t necessarily iconic or as iconic as something like Castlevania or Mega Man

You know I don’t necessarily disagree with you because I think he’s a very special case. Honestly, I think Hayabusa is more iconic than the games themselves considering he’s a main character in Dead or Alive, made 5 or 6 appearances in the Warriors games, made an appearance (technically) in both Nioh games so far, and even made a name drop and reference in ****ing Halo 3.

the timeline goes:
Ninja Gaiden Arcade - 1988(NA)/1989(JP)
Ninja Gaiden NES - 1988(JP)/1989(NA)
Ninja Gaiden II - 1990
Ninja Gaiden Shadow - 1991
Ninja Gaiden III - 1991
Ninja Gaiden Trilogy SNES - 1995
Dead or Alive - 1996
Dead or Alive 2 - 1999
Dead or Alive 3 - 2001
Ninja Gaiden Reboot - 2004
Ninja Gaiden Black- 2005
Dead or Alive 4 - 2005
Ninja Gaiden Sigma - 2007
Ninja Gaiden: Dragon Sword (which people often overlook but it’s super good) - 2008
Ninja Gaiden 2 - 2008
Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 - 2009
Dead or Alive: Dimensions - 2011
Warriors Orochi 3 - 2011
Ninja Gaiden 3 (the bad one) - 2012
Ninja Gaiden 3: Razor’s Edge (Wii U) - 2012
Dead or Alive 5 - 2012
Yaiba: Ninja Gaiden Z (the other bad one) - 2014
Warriors All-Stars - 2017
Nioh - 2017
Dead or Alive 6 - 2019
Warriors Orochi 4 Ultimate - 2019
Nioh 2 - 2020

I actually eliminated a few rereleases like DoA5: Ultimate/Last Round, Dynasty Warriors: Strikeforce, and a few other rereleases.

My point of all this is that I think this is why Hayabusa has remained a steady icon for as long as he has and why he still is. He’s just so well known because of so many things. Some people are like oh I used to play his games on NES, or I used to play those games on Xbox, or oh that guy from Dead or Alive, or oh that guy from Warriors Orochi, or even oh that guy was a secret super boss in Nioh. And I think that’s why he’s so well know and so iconic. Hayabusa has just been around consistently since his first ever appearance and it’s just kind of crazy to think about.

Read this or not, it feels to me like anyone who hasn’t seen the worth of this character just doesn’t want to.

Edit: People often point out that “oh NG probably didn’t sell well” that’s the one that gets me because of how we put Mega Man on a pedestal and his games crossed 1 Million at the VERY HEIGHT of his franchise. And this is coming from a GIANT Mega Man fan.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

What really irks me is that you have to deal with the shoddy midis every time you want to play the stage.

sugiyama whyyyyyyyyyy

Ugh. Yeah. It's definitely the series with the worst music overall in Super Smash Bros.

• Adventure is probably the best of the mix since it actually manages to get its emotions across.
• Fighting Spirits and Battle for Glory might actually be good if they weren't MIDIs, but as is, they're pretty flat.
• Wagon Wheel's March is probably the most boring song in Super Smash Bros.
• I actually like War Cry. Shame it loops every 2 seconds.
• Marching through the Fields is probably the best composition here, but something about it just...doesn't fit for me.
• The Hero Goes Forth With a Determination is also quite boring.
• Unflinchable Courage does nothing for me.

...also the gameplay of Dynasty Warriors has more uniqueness in terms of a moveset that could translate into Smash considering almost every DLC has some sort of gimmick or different style of gameplay.

I'm not gonna say you're wrong here, but moveset potential is pretty irrelevant. Sakurai is incredibly creative, and I can guarantee you that he'd be able to find something interesting to do with Ryu if that's who they went with.

 

[osby]

It' just that right now Koei is too busy pushing Dynasty Warriors popularity and it wouldn't feel farfetched for them to pick Zhao Yun over Hayabusa.

Why what Koei would choose matters when it's Nintendo calling the shots?

 

[Commander_Alph]

Why what Koei would choose matters when it's Nintendo calling the shots?

THAT also could be said to Ninja Gaiden, I mean why do they want to pick a game that is currently on hiatus than pushing Age of Calamity with a Dynasty Warriors character? And for Banjo, the fans of that character is louder than Hayabusa and Rare used to work together with Nintendo, making it easy for them to include Banjo first than Steve.

 

[KillerCage]

Speaking of fighters with Japanese swords
View attachment 290501
Just sayin'

Speaking of fighters with swords...

What? You thought I was going to suggest Ragna?

 

[Commander_Alph]

Speaking of fighters with swords...

View attachment 290513

I forget who's this guy's name and what game he is from because I used to watch my friend emulate a game on his phone and play it and play as the exact same character as the above image.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I forget who's this guy's name and what game he is from because I used to watch my friend emulate a game on his phone and play it and play as the exact same character as the above image.

The game is called Dust: An Elysian Tale, and I think his name is simply just Dust.

 

[osby]

THAT also could be said to Ninja Gaiden, I mean why do they want to pick a game that is currently on hiatus than pushing Age of Calamity with a Dynasty Warriors character? And for Banjo, the fans of that character is louder than Hayabusa and Rare used to work together with Nintendo, making it easy for them to include Banjo first than Steve.

Not sure why you act like I was talking about Ninja Gaiden when I didn't even mention it.

 

[KillerCage]

The game is called Dust: An Elysian Tale, and I think his name is simply just Dust.

BINGO!

 

[Commander_Alph]

Not sure why you act like I was talking about Ninja Gaiden when I didn't even mention it.

I'm not sure why you replied to my message about Dynasty Warriors with that? Cause I'm saying that Dynasty Warriors could be a way of advertising Age of Calamity than picking Ninja Gaiden out of nowhere.

 

[osby]

I'm not sure why you replied to my message about Dynasty Warriors with that?

You said Koei might choose one over another and I said Koei doesn't choose characters for Smash.

It's not rocket science.

 

[Commander_Alph]

You said Koei might choose one over another and I said Koei doesn't choose characters for Smash.

It's not rocket science.

And my reply to that is this:

THAT also could be said to Ninja Gaiden, I mean why do they want to pick a game that is currently on hiatus than pushing Age of Calamity with a Dynasty Warriors character? And for Banjo, the fans of that character is louder than Hayabusa and Rare used to work together with Nintendo, making it easy for them to include Banjo first than Steve.

You clearly reading my message halfway.
Also, to add things up they annouced a new Dynasty Warriors game that may come in early 2021 which also going to be on Switch called Dynasty Warriors 9 Empire which is a good time to announce a character to promote that.

 

[Knight Dude]

What about Ubisoft? Been a minute since people mentioned them in the wider scope of their whole company. Is there anyone in particular aside from the usual Rayman suggestions that'd peak people's interest? I'd assume Assassin's Creed, though Altair is a Mii Costume, it's not like Ezio or something could get picked a bit later.

I think the Prince of Persia would be a solid choice, there's a decent history there from multiple eras of gaming.

 

[Will]

Is there anyone in particular aside from the usual Rayman suggestions that'd peak people's interest?

Rabbids.

 

[ceterisparibus]

We’ve done this time and time again. To absolutely no avail. There’s always the “Didn’t leave a lasting impact” debate that we saw with Banjo. The “dead franchise debate” we saw with Mega Man. There’s always the “not as important as another character” we saw with Bayonetta. There’s always the “not relevant enough debate” like with Simon. There’s always a “reason” the character is unimportant or undeserving. We can throw reasons out every which way but if someone has accepted that those reasons aren’t good enough for them then they’ve already convinced themselves that they can’t be convinced.

However since it was asked you can easily scroll down the Wikipedia page for NG1 to Reception and see why NG1 is praised to this day. You could even do the same for NG2 and NG3. There’s a reason the NES games are held in such high regard and the simple reviews on the Wikipedia page will tell you why. You’re not going to find any sales data here though. Not that that really matters all that much since Bayonetta is in there. Mega Man 11? Sold barely over a million and Capcom considered it a success. Xbox Ninja Gaiden has sold at least 2 million and Sigma has probably sold close to a million.

That’s without mentioning the fact that Hayabusa as a character is actually more iconic than his actual games which I actually did a full write up about here:

Read this or not, it feels to me like anyone who hasn’t seen the worth of this character just doesn’t want to.

Edit: People often point out that “oh NG probably didn’t sell well” that’s the one that gets me because of how we put Mega Man on a pedestal and his games crossed 1 Million at the VERY HEIGHT of his franchise. And this is coming from a GIANT Mega Man fan.

Your first paragraph is kind of a...red herring? Some of the points you raised were never what we were pointing out. Also why did you choose to cherrypick specific game entitles rather than comparing franchise to franchise which is what the main point was all about. In which the stark difference between Megaman/Castlevania and DQ becomes much more stark. And the series didn't even perform better than.....DOA over its current lifetime. Wow.
It's also pretty telling that his cameos and inclusions that you highlighted all happened to be within the KT bubble....which hey, even Terry can claim to have actually made crossovers with actual third-parties! And he came with SNK's entire portfolio!

I honestly think that a couple of reviews on wiki doesn't really point out how big or "high regard" a series ever hit because, hey i can find other games with that kind of commentary.
What you should be looking at is how widespread or impactful a game or franchise has been, which is pretty clear for many of the games currently in smash. Can you say the original trilogy hit the highs of FF7 or SF2? Or the entire franchise outperformed DQ/Megaman/Castlevania?

The underlying point is that, Hayabusa is nowhere near the current pedigree of the NES games being included in smash, nor has he been a "wanted" figure up till Ultimate. But it's ok cause as you highlighted, many other games get in via other factors similar to bayonetta and (to a smaller extent, terry). Which is perfectly fine because that's all that counts, isn't it?

 

[Idon]

What about Ubisoft? Been a minute since people mentioned them in the wider scope of their whole company. Is there anyone in particular aside from the usual Rayman suggestions that'd peak people's interest? I'd assume Assassin's Creed, though Altair is a Mii Costume, it's not like Ezio or something could get picked a bit later.

I think the Prince of Persia would be a solid choice, there's a decent history there from multiple eras of gaming.

Uhh the Warden from For Honor, obviously.

 

[Miles of SmashWiki]

What about Ubisoft? Been a minute since people mentioned them in the wider scope of their whole company. Is there anyone in particular aside from the usual Rayman suggestions that'd peak people's interest? I'd assume Assassin's Creed, though Altair is a Mii Costume, it's not like Ezio or something could get picked a bit later.

I think the Prince of Persia would be a solid choice, there's a decent history there from multiple eras of gaming.

Time for Just Dance Dancer, evidently. /s if there was any doubt

 

[SneakyLink]

Time for Just Dance Dancer, evidently. /s if there was any doubt

I know it’s a /s, but what would a Just Dance character be called? Dancer? Or would they use Akiko from the Emoji Movie? Or would we get a different Ubisoft character complete with glitches?

 

[TheBeastHimself]

I keep seeing Puyo Puyo mentioned every now and then. I'm playing Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine right now, does that technically count?

 

[osby]

Rabbids.

OK but Rabbid Peach would actually be hype for me.

Plus, we know that Spirits doesn't discorfirm so she's as good as a lock.