Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[ZoroCarlos]

What about Ubisoft? Been a minute since people mentioned them in the wider scope of their whole company. Is there anyone in particular aside from the usual Rayman suggestions that'd peak people's interest? I'd assume Assassin's Creed, though Altair is a Mii Costume, it's not like Ezio or something could get picked a bit later.

I think the Prince of Persia would be a solid choice, there's a decent history there from multiple eras of gaming.

Besides Rayman? Only one right choice...

 

[spicynun]

We need the Buck Bumble theme in smash

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

What about Ubisoft? Been a minute since people mentioned them in the wider scope of their whole company. Is there anyone in particular aside from the usual Rayman suggestions that'd peak people's interest? I'd assume Assassin's Creed, though Altair is a Mii Costume, it's not like Ezio or something could get picked a bit later.

I think the Prince of Persia would be a solid choice, there's a decent history there from multiple eras of gaming.

The general consensus seems to be that the Mii Costumes disconfirmed the entire company. I disagree but...eh.

Rayman would be cool though.

The underlying point is that, Hayabusa is nowhere near the current pedigree of the NES games being included in smash...

The problem with that is that it is simply untrue. The series has made a name for itself, and many people still think of it alongside Castlevania, Mega Man, Contra, and the like when thinking of iconic video game series of old. The fact that the series is dead now doesn't erase any of that. And that goes for all franchises from Ghosts n' Goblins to Earthbound.

So is Ninja Gaiden a huge series nowadays? No, it's freaking dead. But it did leave behind a pretty sizable legacy. Any statements to the contrary are objectively false.

 

[Knight Dude]

Besides Rayman? Only one right choice...

We need the Buck Bumble theme in smash

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music that you love, upload original content and share it all with friends, family and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Kings. His theme is a great banger.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Damn, I wake up and we're still trying to argue with someone who's counter argument is ignoring everything that's said while going "nuh uh". I think we're beyond the benefit of doubt now

 

[ceterisparibus]

The problem with that is that it is simply untrue. The series has made a name for itself, and many people still think of it alongside Castlevania, Mega Man, Contra, and the like when thinking of iconic video game series of old. The fact that the series is dead now doesn't erase any of that. And that goes for all franchises from Ghosts n' Goblins to Earthbound.

So is Ninja Gaiden a huge series nowadays? No, it's freaking dead. But it did leave behind a pretty sizable legacy. Any statements to the contrary are objectively false.

.....I literally posted this so many times to highlight the huge difference between Megaman/Castlevania (heck, now i realize DOA actually outperformed NG). And all of this "made a name for itself" literally mean nothing if its anecdotal or without proof - heck even Gex had several well-meaning reviews behind it. Or is this the new blanket statement for every reasoning behind any character?

 

[Spongeboob]

I keep seeing Puyo Puyo mentioned every now and then. I'm playing Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine right now, does that technically count?

I don't think so outside of gameplay.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Ok so some friends of mine are fans of Sword and Shield and one ended up showing me this

I can't ****ing believe that Sword and Shield significantly outclasses Smash in the area of character interactions holy ****.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ok so some friends of mine are fans of Sword and Shield and one ended up showing me this

I can't *ing believe that Sword and Shield significantly outclasses Smash in the area of character interactions holy *.

Its almost like Sword and Sheild have a lot of positive qualities when you look past certain aspects.

 

[Shroob]

Its almost like Sword and Sheild have a lot of positive qualities when you look past certain aspects.

Sad that they don't outweigh the negatives.



Okay, okay, fine, I'll stop. Grandpa here's already ranted three times about the game in the last 24 hours, that's more than enough.

 

[pupNapoleon]

The two current major discussions seem to be:

1. If Falcom were to get a character, who would it be?
2. Whether or not Ninja Gaiden has any sort of legacy/impact on gaming.

...Oh

Well, I guess there arent answers

 

[Will]

I can't *ing believe that Sword and Shield significantly outclasses Smash in the area of character interactions holy *.

This game barely had any character interactions, it's just everyone saying "Hey don't ****ing die against Galeem" before everyone died against Galeem.

Some of the character updates, not even interactions, are lazy as hell too. Fox gets a new ****ing voice actor every goddamn game but Mario has been sounding like a murderer for Brawl's edgy vibes for 12 years now. Let Charles do some more work, Luigi's Mansion 3 is honestly half the fun because I get to hear those sweet sweet Italian voices.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Since there was discussion about Falcom a bit earlier I wanna take the opportunity to present this video for those who are interested in the history of a really old company that defined the ARPG genre and pushed for developing PC games in Japan. I hope it gives a new perspective for people in why this company could be chosen for Smash.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Its almost like Sword and Sheild have a lot of positive qualities when you look past certain aspects.

Bold of you to assume my thoughts were 100% negative and not "There's good stuff but it really isn't worth 90 bucks"

This game barely had any character interactions, it's just everyone saying "Hey don't ****ing die against Galeem" before everyone died against Galeem.

Some of the character updates, not even interactions, are lazy as hell too. Fox gets a new ****ing voice actor every goddamn game but Mario has been sounding like a murderer for Brawl's edgy vibes for 12 years now. Let Charles do some more work, Luigi's Mansion 3 is honestly half the fun because I get to hear those sweet sweet Italian voices.

Meanwhile they didn't even ****ing bother getting Sonic some ****ing voice lines and just re-used lines from Colours and Generations and while there are some unique victory quotes, it's only with characters within their own franchises. Cannot believe that this single gif alone has more thought into the crossover than 90% of the game

 

[Goombaic]

I wish the lack of general character interactions was due to licensing issues rather than the devs just not wanting to do them, but the fact that they got to have Alucard chatter with Pit and Palutena in Richter's guidance makes me doubt that.

Sword and Shield has the best human characters in the series.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I wish the lack of general character interactions was due to licensing issues rather than the devs just wanting not doing them, but the fact that they got to have Alucard chatter with Pit and Palutena in Richter's guidance makes me doubt that.

Sword and Shield has the best human characters in the series.

**** man I'm still disappointed that Alucard's the only character who isn't Pit, Palu or Viridi in those Guidances. Can you imagine how funny it'd be if Chrom's Guidance was a continuation off of Robin's Smash 4 Guidance with Chrom front and center?

 

[Shroob]

I wish the lack of general character interactions was due to licensing issues rather than the devs just wanting not doing them, but the fact that they got to have Alucard chatter with Pit and Palutena in Richter's guidance makes me doubt that.

Sword and Shield has the best human characters in the series.

I'm gonna put a big..ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh... to that spoilered part because I legit believe that title goes to Gen 5 easily, both games. Gen 7 behind it as a runner up.


I 'like' the Gym Leaders and side characters of Gen 8, but they really don't stick out for me aside from their quirks.

 

[Will]

Meanwhile they didn't even ****ing bother getting Sonic some ****ing voice lines and just re-used lines from Colours and Generations and while there are some unique victory quotes, it's only with characters within their own franchises. Cannot believe that this single gif alone has more thought into the crossover than 90% of the game
View attachment 290520

Although it's a crossover, Nintendo nor Sakurai seems very interested in the aspect of crossover interaction outside of a story mode, just that the crossover exists. You've seen a million tweets going "Imagine showing someone this 10 years ago" with all the third parties, they usually don't care about the interactions, just the thought of them coexisting in the same game as it is. There are easter eggs with guidances and codecs, but that rarely shows much.

I don't expect a crossover interaction in the base game without using hidden taunts or win quotes, just only in story mode events. That's just for now and in the future. It's a shame too, Subspace was perfect with character interaction without voice lines, and Ultimate seems to have gone for the upgrade of adding voice lines.

Lots of hypotheticals though, I would've liked to see Lucario and Ryu interact. Mostly just because it's dub Goku and Gohan.

 

[Calane]

Kings. His theme is a great banger.

His theme is great, but this...

This is a masterpiece.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Although it's a crossover, Nintendo nor Sakurai seems very interested in the aspect of crossover interaction outside of a story mode, just that the crossover exists. You've seen a million tweets going "Imagine showing someone this 10 years ago" with all the third parties, they usually don't care about the interactions, just the thought of them coexisting in the same game as it is. There are easter eggs with guidances and codecs, but that rarely shows much.

I don't expect a crossover interaction in the base game without using hidden taunts or win quotes, just only in story mode events. That's just for now and in the future. It's a shame too, Subspace was perfect with character interaction without voice lines, and Ultimate seems to have gone for the upgrade of adding voice lines.

Lots of hypotheticals though, I would've liked to see Lucario and Ryu interact. Mostly just because it's dub Goku and Gohan.

It's a shame because it doesn't feel like I'm having Terry beat the **** out of Samus who's also fighting a Piranha Plant while Dedede ****s around but rather action figures of them. Still a great overall package but that one extra step just gives the fighters so much more personality, especially as we have multiple characters in Smash who's personalities can't shine due to how limited they are

 

[Will]

It's a shame because it doesn't feel like I'm having Terry beat the **** out of Samus who's also fighting a Piranha Plant while Dedede ****s around but rather action figures of them.

I mean that was literally the basis as the intro to 64 and Melee showed us with Master Hand propping the toys and the kid in Melee making Mario's trophy coming to life after yeeting that ***** to the stratosphere.

Still a great overall package but that one extra step just gives the fighters so much more personality, especially as we have multiple characters in Smash who's personalities can't shine due to how limited they are

Which characters do you have in mind?

 

[Commander_Alph]

I think I could come up with a the reason why Smash doesn't have a unique interaction with other character outside story mode, and it's not just Sakurai being lazy nor because of an agreement with certain character, it's the matter of the game.

- When you really think about it Smash gameplay allows you to fight with 8 other player or 4 player if you played online, granted it is really impossible for 2 character interact with each other while just ignoring the rest and if this option only apply to 1v1 matches the context of being a crossover game with more than 100 character just felt lost.

- using a qoute or even a unique voice interaction doesn't help either as half of the character in the game either only makes grunt and one liner and using a textbox to get the thought across felt really sloppy and will even overlapped with character that actually talk more.

- the only interaction that they could do is Squad Strike which could utilize the same mechanic as MvC3 pre battle interaction but even in that series only 2 people could interact for the character that you picked first while everyone else just listen.

really, the way that it could help is either make a totally unique victory animation like if Chrom and Robin is on the same team they could literally do the same animation that Robin has in the game.

 

[Koopaul]

Keep telling yourself that, you're clearly not listening if you think me saying Fed Force left a bad taste in Metroid fans' mouth due to it being the first game in 7 years with the next mainline game not getting announced until a year later is the exact same as "How dare they make this small bonus and show it off in a short timespan between fully fledged newcomers". The two scenarios cannot be more different, and if you're just gonna go "nou criticism bad" despite talking about how long it took to get a new mainline DKC, then we're clearly done here

This is last thing I'm going to say because I want you to know that I do understand that Fed Force left a bad taste in the mouth of Metroid fans. Just like Donkey Konga left a bad taste in mine.

But obviously Ridley and K. Rool fans were left bitter after asking and asking and asking for years and years. Then we got a boss and a Mii costume. Of course we were mad. Of course it seems tone deaf. And we turned our anger towards Fire Emblem and the echo fighters. Imagine giving us Lucina instead of Ridley! We've been begging for Ridley for years and years and Sakurai gives us Lucina?! Who does he think he is?

But I'm wiser now. I understand why we got Lucina andnnot Ridley. I understand how we got so many Fire Emblem characters.

Are the echo fighters and Federation Force comparable in terms of scale? Not at all. The 7 years of Metroid absence is way worse than anything that Ridley or K. Rool fans endured. I get it. I know. I'm a DK. I know the bad taste. I know the pain of waiting and getting things that seem like a slap in the face.

But I'm saying that this is all circumstantial. Now I know none of it is actually a slap in the face. That's where my comparison comes from. You don't want to understand why you got Federation Force. You don't want to understand how things work behind the scenes. You don't want to understand that FF was not made because they thought this is what fans wanted.

That's the comparison I'm making. Not the scale of the pain or the years you've endured. I'm talking about how fans got the wrong impression from Fed Force and Echoes/Fire Emblem fighters, etc. I'm not saying critism is bad. I'm saying your critism is incorrect. And that the things you think they should have done were not possible or practical.

That's all. You don't have to tell me what was worse. I know what is worse. But that was never my argument.

 

[MarioRaccoon]

Here is a topic to ask; the stages, here is count of new playable stages introduced in each smash game:

64: 9
Melee: 25
Brawl: 29
For 3DS: 20
For WiiU: 24
For 3DS + WiiU: 8 (4 DLC)
Ultimate: 16 (4 base game, 12 DLC)

So, Ultimate will be the game that introduced the less amount of stages in total since the original one. This is in compensation that we got almost all past stages (plus battlefield versions and adjust for 8 player smash), but I have to ask you, what stages you would have want for base game?

Personally, I would have want a Kirby Epica Yarn stage that was planned before being replaces for Yoshi Wooly World WiiU stage (that got removed later in ultimate) and a Mario Land stage, being the same as Dream Land GB and can be used as Daisy “home stage”. Also I was a bit surprised that we didn’t get a Pokémon Sun/Moon stage and would have liked a new Donkey Kong stage because from the 4 ones in Ultimate, 3 are from DKC1 and the other from the original arcade, so a stage from DKC2 or 3 (as King K Rool “home stage”) would have been better.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Cool, now instead of strawmanning try to actually show that NG has a legacy or impact or sales that is compatible to its NES compatriots in smash.

Thing is, I don't have to. Onus is on you to prove otherwise. It's almost like you expect legacy to be a quantifiable quality. When people discuss great NES games, they mention Ninja Gaiden. When people discuss great character action games, they mention Ninja Gaiden. When people talk about hard-as-nails franchises, they mention Ninja Gaiden. That's its legacy: to still be remembered, and fondly remembered at that, as a classic and one of gaming's greats. There isn't any hard statistic I can point to for this, and yet I doubt that you've ever encountered any evidence to the contrary. Because that's how widespread its acclaim is.

You want me to make up sales numbers comparable to Castlevania's? They're not! You cannot seriously pretend that a franchise with 6 games sell as much as one with dozens. Ninja Gaiden's probably got better average sales because of its new games, if it matters. But I don't think this is a series that would get in on sales anyway.

As for impact, it's already been mentioned, so I see no point in repeating it.

 

[ZelDan]

Yeah, I do wish Smash would do more when it comes to character interactions or having actual story beyond one cutscene. It's why I can appreciate Brawl's Subspace Emissary to some extent. Say what you will about its gameplay (I didn't care for it either), but actually seeing these characters interact in a way that wasn't just them kicking the crap out of eachother was nice.

Hot take or controversial opinion or whatever you want to call it, but I could actually handle having a smaller roster or some cuts if it meant we could see these kind of special interactions or could get to see some more life to whatever characters actually do end up and remain in a Smash 6, or another subspace-esque mode with actual story. Of course there would be various other factors that would determine how I'd feel about cuts or a smaller roster, but that isn't entirely the point of my post so I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Cosmic77]

I'm not sure how many licensing issues would be involved with different franchises and third-parties, but I don't think they're as complicated as people think.

Regardless, there's still several missed opportunities for characters from the same universe to interact with each other. We already know thanks to Star Fox and Kid Icarus that Sakurai could make special victory quotes for certain characters. He just hasn't added many for some reason. I'm also surprised he hasn't made a few special team animations for characters who are strongly associated with other playable characters. Just looking at the Mario universe, you could probably come up with ten or so "team victory animations" for a pair of characters without it feeling strange or forced (Mario+Luigi, Mario+Peach, Peach+Daisy, Bowser+Bowser Jr., etc.).

I'm not in a position to complain too much because I know a lot of details are given to each character, but I do wish it didn't feel like every single character was trapped inside their own little world and reacted the same to fighting every possible opponent.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I mean that was literally the basis as the intro to 64 and Melee showed us with Master Hand propping the toys and the kid in Melee making Mario's trophy coming to life after yeeting that ***** to the stratosphere.


Which characters do you have in mind?

That's true but when I was a kid, I made the action figures talk because I always liked it when Spiderman and Sonic cracked jokes when in fights.


Sonic and Shulk are my go to examples, Sonic's just been so devoid of life since Smash 4 as he's not only significantly less expressive, but he doesn't act like Sonic anymore. Shulk's a very basic character so it's shocking he's portrayed as incredibly energetic and cocky, which feels completely wrong. Other examples I regularly see are Olimar, Bowser and Kazooie. This is just what I thought of in a minute, there's probably more, the JRPG characters who have character development likely have this too

 

[Captain Shwampy]

Dont give me hope

 

[Will]

Shulk's a very basic character so it's shocking he's portrayed as incredibly energetic and cocky, which feels completely wrong.

Plus the fact Ultimate updated his face to look like a goddamn Ken doll.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Plus the fact Ultimate updated his face to look like a goddamn Ken doll.

But Ken's incredibly expressive in Smash with his **** eating grins and stuff smh
Yeah Shulk's overly plastic look is awful lmao

 

[Miles of SmashWiki]

I don't think it's unreasonable to think that added dialogue would be a licensing headache. Keep in mind that even just theoretically simple stuff like the art for the Classic Mode mural required individual approval from every IP holder. If that was for single pieces of art, can you imagine the headache of trying to get approval for giving characters, especially 3rd party ones, substantially more things to say? That's not to mention localization (Ultimate is translated into 10 languages). That's not to mention the cases of DLC content that would presumably need new dialogue from characters already in the game. And that's not to mention voice actor costs, were such text to be voice acted...

While I get wanting more in-depth characterization and 1:1 interactions, I also think it would become a logistical headache very, very quickly. I can't blame them for limiting how much of that they do.

 

[Will]

Yeah Shulk's overly plastic look is awful lmao

It's half the reason I don't touch Shulk anymore, even when I win, I lose when I see that ghastly face.

 

[I.D.]

Shulk's a very basic character so it's shocking he's portrayed as incredibly energetic and cocky, which feels completely wrong.

"Not good enough!"
"I'm really feeling it!"
"We can definitely do this!"
"Cool!"
"I can feel the power!"
"Piece of cake!"
"Hahaha, we win!"
"How good are we?!"

All real Shulk quotes you will hear very often while playing through XB.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Wait, people are really arguing that DOA has a bigger impact than NG because of sales numbers after the latter went dormant?

Like, with Warriors it would at least be understandable, because it spawned a whole subgenre. But DOA?

...Really?

 

[Will]

Wait, people are really arguing that DOA has a bigger impact than NG because of sales numbers after the latter went dormant?

Like, with Warriors it would at least be understandable, because it spawned a whole subgenre. But DOA?

...Really?

I don't get it either, it's pretty clear to me that it is without a doubt Ryu Hayabusa getting in first for a Koei-Tecmo rep. It's like going straight for Heihachi instead of Pac-Man, you can't do it. There are rare exceptions like Snake, though.

 

[Commander_Alph]

I don't get it either, it's pretty clear to me that it is without a doubt Ryu Hayabusa getting in first for a Koei-Tecmo rep. It's like going straight for Heihachi instead of Pac-Man, you can't do it. There are rare exceptions like Snake, though.

The thing is tho, Hayabusa and Ninja Gaiden is not exactly the mascot of Koei-Tecmo nor even their front runner game, that honor goes to Zhao Yun and Dynasty Warriors. So yeah your comparison is basically backward.

Think about it this way, Pac-Man is the mascot of the arcade era and still fondly remember to this day, while Dynasty Warriors isn't exactly all that impactful and memorable it did generate a new type of Hack n' Slash genre called Musou and almost their collaboration with other media such as games ( Hyrule & Fire Emblem Warriors and Persona 5 Scramble) and anime ( Arslan: The Warriors of Legend and Berserk and the Band of the Hawk ) it is pretty clear that if Dynasty Warriors didn't exist Koei-Tecmo is going to have a hard time bonding with larger company and basically it's their special child. Even if Ninja Gaiden is more iconic in the public eye Koei still holds high regards to the Warriors franchise.

 

[TwiceEXE]

Wait, people are really arguing that DOA has a bigger impact than NG because of sales numbers after the latter went dormant?

Like, with Warriors it would at least be understandable, because it spawned a whole subgenre. But DOA?

...Really?

Impact? That's not something you can really measure so the answers will be subjective. I personally believe that NG has had more impact than DOA, but DOA is unquestionably the larger series. One of them is an objective metric and the other, like I said, is going to be an opinion.

For example, how can you decide if Doom or Tetris had a larger impact on gaming? You can't. You can discuss all the factors, make lists and charts, but there is no measurable metric that we can follow. But we can say that Tetris is larger than Doom as a franchise with certainty.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I don't get it either, it's pretty clear to me that it is without a doubt Ryu Hayabusa getting in first for a Koei-Tecmo rep. It's like going straight for Heihachi instead of Pac-Man, you can't do it. There are rare exceptions like Snake, though.

Warriors can be excused in that sense because it is their "main" series right now, at least, but yeah.

There's also Terry and Kyo, for example. The former is widely seen as SNK's mascot, even if his home series is dead, while the latter is the mascot for their current headliner and best seller. And look who got in Smash in the end.

I'd say the DOA thing goes a step further, even. It's like asking for, I dunno, Nightmare or Dig Dug as our first Namco rep. That's not to say these games aren't good or have historical value, but to call them frontrunners would be crazy.

For example, how can you decide if Doom or Tetris had a larger impact on gaming? You can't.

You see, the thing is that both of them are still incredibly iconic, sold well and influenced pretty much every game on their genres.

So regardless of genre distinction, most people here can point out other fighting games that did these better than DOA. Try to do the same to NG, though, and it the distinction becomes clear.

The fact that Mega Man and Castlevania are the ONLY series brought up in that occasion means that NG is probably up there, tbh. It's like the people trying to disqualify Banjo-Kazooie's value because it was second to freaking Mario 64 in terms of that era's collectathons.

 

[Will]

The thing is tho, Hayabusa and Ninja Gaiden is not exactly the mascot of Koei-Tecmo nor even their front runner game, that honor goes to Zhao Yun and Dynasty Warriors. So yeah your comparison is basically backwards

It's not about mascots or frontrunners, it's just that it's old-school industry innovator and NES star Ryu Hayabusa. Castlevania is dead and Bomberman is alive but hoo boy look how that turned out, huh?

Those Warriors would probably make some good Mii costumes, though, their designs are peak kino.