Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[CHAMPIONX9]

Sakurai:
Steve: 1
Ken: 1
Banjo: 5
incineroar: 4
Isabelle: 3
O tto, I still have one point left, who should I use it on guys?

 

[pupNapoleon]

So I assume the game Lloyd is from happens to be the most popular in the series? Or Lloyd sticks out the most?

I truly don't know. It would have been nice to have any explanation. I guess I sound too aggressive when I'm blunt, and it only ends up making me feel like I'm a bad person.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

In SF3, Gill's effects were purely aesthetic. In SFV, using fire or ice mattered, but Gill wasn't mirrored so it would be the same effect no matter which side he hit you from. I imagine, the latter will hold true for a hypothetical Lloyd as well.

The way they did it for SFV was to just allow all moves regardless of which side he's facing.

QCF-Punch for Fire ball
QCB-Punch for Ice Ball

and stuff like that. That's because they gave him a new gimmick where elemental moves get extra effects if they land while the foe is under the effect of its opposite, so the idea of him getting different moves based on which side he faces would be very counterintuitive.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Sakurai:
Steve: 1
Ken: 1
Banjo: 5
incineroar: 4
Isabelle: 3
O tto, I still have one point left, who should I use it on guys?

You know you want it.

 

[cashregister9]

Yeah, but she is a icon and has the legacy that she doesn't need more presence on a Nintendo console to get in. Once she's in she'll get attention. And while I wouldn't be too excited for her inclusion, I think she would bring a unique play style to Smash that we haven't seen yet. She would be the closest thing we could get to having Indiana Jones in the game.

I feel like the criteria for joining smash is more than just being an Icon like moveset potential, presence in japan and with nintendo etc. Just being an Icon would not get Lara in, Now Lara does have most of those things, but if the criteria was only being an icon we wouldn't have gotten characters like Falcon, Min Min etc.

 

[SharkLord]

So I assume the game Lloyd is from happens to be the most popular in the series? Or Lloyd sticks out the most?

Lloyd's game, Tales of Symphonia gets the most attention for three reasons:

1. It was a big GameCube RPG on a console lacking in RPGs, which brought a fair bot of attention to it.
2. It was the game that got Tales recognition worldwide, like with Final Fantasy VII and Fire Emblem: The Blazing Blade (Or Awakening, if we're going for the entry into the big leagues)
3. It sold the most out of the series (I think)

As a result, Lloyd gets a lot of attention from both the rest of the series and the Smash fandom, having appeared in some form in over a dozen games (Including SoulCalibur Legends and SSB4, as a guest fighter and a Mii, respectively) and effectively being the series mascot. According to his support thread, he also has appeared in seven mangas, seven CD dramas, three animes, and two novels, meaning he has an impresive resume under his belt.

It should also be noted that Lloyd enjoyed the most popularity in the Smash fandom back in the ballot days, leading to his Mii Costume, and seems to still take up the bulk of the requests. While the widening scope of the speculative scene has allowed Yuri to act as a rival to him, it still seems Lloyd's been ingrained as the top dog of Tales requests.

I think the the ballot might play a crucial role for Lloyd. While it's obviously not the main focus for the dev team, it's likely still a useful source of data for Sakurai and Nintendo. I'd imagine it would go something like:
Nintendo: Put a Tales character in Smash.
Sakurai: Hmm... Lloyd did the best back in the ballot days. Maybe he'd be the best option.

Basically, I think Lloyd's the way to go because Sakurai and Nintendo would be checking the requests and votes for their game, Smash, rather than the Tales polls, which are for a series not owned by them.

 

[Idon]

The way they did it for SFV was to just allow all moves regardless of which side he's facing.

QCF-Punch for Fire ball
QCB-Punch for Ice Ball

and stuff like that. That's because they gave him a new gimmick where elemental moves get extra effects if they land while the foe is under the effect of its opposite, so the idea of him getting different moves based on which side he faces would be very counterintuitive.

Yeah I know. The point remains in that Gill's side doesn't affect his gameplay. I think in general that would just be bad game design.

 

[7NATOR]

Question on Crash

So With how Crash is based on Tazmanian Devil and has alot of the Looney toons vibe, Along with his Crazy Personality, would he be the Character that Is heavily Slapstick based? And honestly, how would that Translate to Moveset?

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I feel like the criteria for joining smash is more than just being an Icon like moveset potential, presence in japan and with nintendo etc. Just being an Icon would not get Lara in, Now Lara does have most of those things, but if the criteria was only being an icon we wouldn't have gotten characters like Falcon, Min Min etc.

Well, 64 and Melee focused on just Nintendo characters so F-Zero getting a rep made sense since it is a iconic Nintendo franchise. Not a big legacy franchise like Mario, Zelda, DK, or Star Fox but still a legacy franchise.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Alright friends. It seems like I'm being crazy, which usually is a sign I'm on the down end of my bipolarity. Peace to those I've offended- I actually don't understand how, but that doesn't change the inherent response. I'll be back shortly.

 

[TheBeastHimself]

I truly don't know. It would have been nice to have any explanation. I guess I sound too aggressive when I'm blunt, and it only ends up making me feel like I'm a bad person.

Many people don't like bluntness, but it doesn't help that speaking over the Internet cannot properly convey tone. I don't think you should take anything personally. But if you're feeling that bad about it, I would try to open up a dialogue and reach out.

Clearly, there was some miscommunication. Maybe things need to be talked out. Maybe not. Up to you, or up to others.

I don't think it matters either way. We're communicating through the Internet, nobody is going to hold grudges against you, at least I'd hope not. The argument is about something that at the end of the day isn't the most important thing in the world. If people are that offended by your comments, then I think they're taking everything way too seriously. But that's just my opinion.

I don't think you're a bad person, and I don't think anyone else is either. The only person who ever truly pissed me off in this thread was that guy that came in to boast after Steve got in.

 

[ALongWistfulSquiggle]

This might be a bad take (I haven't played Symphonia. I think I watched a playthrough back in 2010 or something), but Lloyd always struck me as the western equivalent of a shounen protagonist. He has a lot of those same anime quirks, but the way he expresses them is decidedly more American, if that makes sense. I think that's part of why the Western fanbase loves him so much more than a lot of other Tales characters.

 

[SKX31]

Does anyone think that Yuri is just a purple male ?

I know you probably don't care as much about gameplay stuff as I do, however:

Lucina wants to be in your face constantly and push buttons with impunity - her greatest strength is that she has Marth's range while not having to worry about Ultimate's lack of microspacing options. She has no reason to play defensive either either, since she is kind of vurnerable with her defensive game in turn. While Lucina thrives off of comboing (kinda unlike Marth), she also has a great advantage when the opponent's knocked back.

Yuri is not exactly this. Not only would he not share Marcina's attacks at all, he'd have much less emphasis on pure knockback (though his shoulder / elbow bashes and wolf-related attacks could accomplish this) and more on racking up damage. In particular, Yuri punches a lot; which is atypical for a swordie. Yuri would also come equipped with a couple keepaway options and a number of ways to extend the openings he gets.

Devil May Cry pro donguri did a long Tales of combo movie (he's done Vesperia and Beseria separately too.):

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Question on Crash

So With how Crash is based on Tazmanian Devil and has alot of the Looney toons vibe, Along with his Crazy Personality, would he be the Character that Is heavily Slapstick based? And honestly, how would that Translate to Moveset?

He'd have tons of death animations

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yeah I know. The point remains in that Gill's side doesn't affect his gameplay. I think in general that would just be bad game design.

It would only be bad game design if one side was clearly stronger than the other.

But if we got a "one side is slow but powerful and the other is for combos", then you basically get to switch back and forth between two "characters"

Is it good game design? No, but neither was Byleth's moveset. And that comes from someone who actually wanted Byleth.

 

[3BitSaurus]

I'm a bit divided on Lloyd. I'd be happy for his fans, but I don't have such a strong connection to him or the Tales series. Plus, he's one of the few characters in Smash Flash 2 that managed to not sell to me based on moveset. I think he's kinda boring in that game.

If he happened, though, nothing against it.

Not like my MW Namco rep has a chance anyway... cries in one canceled comic, one canceled movie and a remake that never came.

While I think Geno or Sora is more likely, I think no one should sleep on Lara.

I don't think people are, really.

Lara gets brought up at least once every two days over here. I don't really think we can say she's being "slept on".

 

[Wigglerman]

Question on Crash

So With how Crash is based on Tazmanian Devil and has alot of the Looney toons vibe, Along with his Crazy Personality, would he be the Character that Is heavily Slapstick based? And honestly, how would that Translate to Moveset?

Just some basic ideas is his neutral b could be his signature spin.

Down air is his belly flop.

Dash attack is that skid slide he does.

Could throw whompa fruit or use his crates, could be each toss is a random crate between a normal box, tnt, the toxic/nitro crate.

Might be too much like Wario but could use the motorcycle from Warped

Might be able to use the tiki mask to power up somehow?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Plus, he's one of the few characters in Smash Flash 2 that managed to not sell to me based on moveset. I think he's kinda boring in that game.

Which moveset? They redid him like, so many times over the years that he's a completely different character than in early demos lmao.

Joking aside, yeah, Lloyd's moveset isn't particularly interesting, but that could be just because they tried to play safe instead of going ham with mechanics?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Here, let me offer a quick explanation on these things;

Calling a character a silly choice feels like you're being unfair towards one. It basically comes off as dismissing them and downplaying them. It's outright gatekeeping to others. It should always be avoided to call character names. There's a difference between a joke/meme, and trying to dismiss them.

If a person tells you to read the opening post, it's a viable explanation. Just read it, and ask questions if you don't understand all it says. Nobody is owed an explanation or an answer to a question on here. It'd be nice to be answered, but I can tell you straight out that not all will be willing to reply. Tons of times I ask questions on threads with zero answers. It's life. Not all want to reply and not everybody will care about the conversation.

Finally, merit isn't going to be said for all kinds of characters. If we go by merit alone, many characters would have zero support. I support Brian and all, but it ain't cause of the merit of his games. They were "successful" sales-wise officially, but it didn't do anything particular of note anyway. Being the first N64 game to have a proper day/night system is not remotely impressive if it doesn't actually amount to any actual gameplay changes. It's not the first game to be an action turn-based rpg. Chrono Trigger actually did something similar, though in 2D. Well, the idea of leveling up stats also came from Final Fantasy II. And the spells themselves are very similar to Dragon Quest. That's like 3 Square-Enix rpg's inspired by it, heh. About the only thing of note is the C-Buttons being used very smartly for the elemental system, and when you consider the fact that they use those buttons for the Camera system in general on multiple games, is it really that big of a thing? No. It's a fun game I like. I don't expect it to ever have any kind of appearance in Smash, but I'll always support it cause I like the franchise.

(I'll also be fair. It has pretty good graphics for an early N64 game, good music, and very good character design. Do note I don't really call those "merits" alone. Those are just fun factors of why people might like it. Now if only it had actual characterization beyond... one guy.)

That's what people like to support too. Stuff they simply like. Merit is not the be-end all of support. Merit definitely plays a role in getting a character in, though not in every single case. Just a lot of them. Ice Climbers wasn't about the merit of the games, but being a retro option that Sakurai could figure out a unique mechanic for. ...On the other hand, Mr. Game & Watch is about the merit of the Game & Watch games. R.O.B. can be seen the same way, due to basically help saving video games as we know it.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Which moveset? They redid him like, so many times over the years that he's a completely different character than in early demos lmao.

Joking aside, yeah, Lloyd's moveset isn't particularly interesting, but that could be just because they tried to play safe instead of going ham with mechanics?

Maybe. I guess my point was that since I'm not a huge Tales/Lloyd fan, I pretty much rely on the mechanics to win me over, but I don't feel like this incarnation of him did that for me. Others certainly did, like Isaac, Chibi-Robo and Black Mage. Then there's Sora, who plays pretty much likeI'd personally want him to. But I digress.

I do hope Sakurai would go ham on a Tales character, though.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

I feel like some people here and in the Geno thread secretly holds something against me sometimes. Like me defending Fatman's reputation over the edge against people who really don't like him even when they didn't spoke bad about him. My apologies especially to Opossum who I attacked once for just visiting the Geno thread and speaking about something when he didn't bring up Fatman at all.

Sometimes I have bad days as I'm Autistic and I get discriminated, harassed, or lied too sometimes at work because of some ***holes who make up lies about me behind my back because of this one girl who didn't like me because of my Autism and made up lies about me.

 

[Idon]

It would only be bad game design if one side was clearly stronger than the other.

But if we got a "one side is slow but powerful and the other is for combos", then you basically get to switch back and forth between two "characters"

Is it good game design? No, but neither was Byleth's moveset. And that comes from someone who actually wanted Byleth.

No, the problem is that the character would be arbitrarily restricted for no reason. That's terrible game design for a character. That's why NO other game in the world does it.

Byleth, as boring as you think their moveset may be, actually works consistently and fulfills the job they made him to do. There's zero correlation between them and what you're arguing. Making a character that switches their moves on an arbitrary basis accomplishes nothing.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Maybe. I guess my point was that since I'm not a huge Tales/Lloyd fan, I pretty much rely on the mechanics to win me over, but I don't feel like this incarnation of him did that for me. Others certainly did, like Isaac, Chibi-Robo and Black Mage. Then there's Sora, who plays pretty much likeI'd personally want him to. But I digress.

I do hope Sakurai would go ham on a Tales character, though.

They used to go really ham for Lloyd on SSF2, actually trying to translate the gameplay.

Maybe they can revisit the idea now that they have another character with cancels? (Ryu)

 

[TheBeastHimself]

Here, let me offer a quick explanation on these things;

Calling a character a silly choice feels like you're being unfair towards one. It basically comes off as dismissing them and downplaying them. It's outright gatekeeping to others. It should always be avoided to call character names. There's a difference between a joke/meme, and trying to dismiss them.

If a person tells you to read the opening post, it's a viable explanation. Just read it, and ask questions if you don't understand all it says. Nobody is owed an explanation or an answer to a question on here. It'd be nice to be answered, but I can tell you straight out that not all will be willing to reply. Tons of times I ask questions on threads with zero answers. It's life. Not all want to reply and not everybody will care about the conversation.

Finally, merit isn't going to be said for all kinds of characters. If we go by merit alone, many characters would have zero support. I support Brian and all, but it ain't cause of the merit of his games. They were "successful" sales-wise officially, but it didn't do anything particular of note anyway. Being the first N64 game to have a proper day/night system is not remotely impressive if it doesn't actually amount to any actual gameplay changes. It's not the first game to be an action turn-based rpg. Chrono Trigger actually did something similar, though in 2D. Well, the idea of leveling up stats also came from Final Fantasy II. And the spells themselves are very similar to Dragon Quest. That's like 3 Square-Enix rpg's inspired by it, heh. About the only thing of note is the C-Buttons being used very smartly for the elemental system, and when you consider the fact that they use those buttons for the Camera system in general on multiple games, is it really that big of a thing? No. It's a fun game I like. I don't expect it to ever have any kind of appearance in Smash, but I'll always support it cause I like the franchise.

(I'll also be fair. It has pretty good graphics for an early N64 game, good music, and very good character design. Do note I don't really call those "merits" alone. Those are just fun factors of why people might like it. Now if only it had actual characterization beyond... one guy.)

That's what people like to support too. Stuff they simply like. Merit is not the be-end all of support. Merit definitely plays a role in getting a character in, though not in every single case. Just a lot of them. Ice Climbers wasn't about the merit of the games, but being a retro option that Sakurai could figure out a unique mechanic for. ...On the other hand, Mr. Game & Watch is about the merit of the Game & Watch games. R.O.B. can be seen the same way, due to basically help saving video games as we know it.

Thank you, because you've explained this in a much better way than I could have ever. That's why I support Conker. Sure, it's technically a weird pick, but I just simply like me a drunk squirrel.

 

[KillerCage]

Sakurai:
Steve: 1
Ken: 1
Banjo: 5
incineroar: 4
Isabelle: 3
O tto, I still have one point left, who should I use it on guys?

Slippy

 

[SharkLord]

Sakurai:
Steve: 1
Ken: 1
Banjo: 5
incineroar: 4
Isabelle: 3
O tto, I still have one point left, who should I use it on guys?

Spend them on whoever the lobster person is.

 

[SKX31]

Sakurai:
Steve: 1
Ken: 1
Banjo: 5
incineroar: 4
Isabelle: 3
O tto, I still have one point left, who should I use it on guys?

Gex. So we can hear the joys of bizarre one-liners in Smash.

(I find it absolutely crazy that Steve's considered a 1 and Spyro's a 3, even if this is a pre-Ultimate release list / game).

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I feel like some people here and in the Geno thread secretly holds something against me sometimes. Like me defending Fatman's reputation over the edge against people who really don't like him even when they didn't spoke bad about him. My apologies especially to Opossum who I attacked once for just visiting the Geno thread and speaking about something when he didn't bring up Fatman at all.

Sometimes I have bad days as I'm Autistic and I get discriminated, harassed, or lied too sometimes at work because of some ***holes who make up lies about me behind my back because of this one girl who didn't like me because of my Autism and made up lies about me.

Hey man, it’s alright. Everybody has a bad day once in awhile. It ain’t cool for anybody to make fun of you for who you are. Frankly, I’m sorry that society has basically set up a stigma against folks such as yourself because of something like that.

I think it’s quite brave for you to outwardly say these things about yourself- not that you SHOULD be afraid to say such things, but I know it’s not easy for people to do that.

I know this isn’t quite Smash related, but good for you. Don’t let people get you down. When it comes to Smash, just keep an open mind and have fun, I’d say!

 

[Wunderwaft]

I'm a bit divided on Lloyd. I'd be happy for his fans, but I don't have such a strong connection to him or the Tales series. Plus, he's one of the few characters in Smash Flash 2 that managed to not sell to me based on moveset. I think he's kinda boring in that game.

Oh hey I guess I'm not the only one who was turned off from Lloyd thanks to Flash 2. I never played any of the Tales games so when I tried him out in Flash 2 I was quite disappointed with how he played.

 

[kirbsmash]

O tto, I still have one point left, who should I use it on guys?

You forgot Hero...

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

No, the problem is that the character would be arbitrarily restricted for no reason. That's terrible game design for a character. That's why NO other game in the world does it.

Byleth, as boring as you think their moveset may be, actually works consistently and fulfills the job they made him to do. There's zero correlation between them and what you're arguing. Making a character that switches their moves on an arbitrary basis accomplishes nothing.

Would be hilarious if they actually ended up doing it though, but that's just me

 

[kirbsmash]

thanks to Flash 2.

I don't think using flash 2 as a base for your reactions is a good idea, while it is well made, they tend to play it safe with some characters.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I don't think using flash 2 as a base for your reactions is a good idea, while it is well made, they tend to play it safe with some characters.

They can go one way or the other.

Like I showed, earlier movesets of Lloyd were more ambitious.

There was also Mega Man being able to change one of his specials with a Monado-like wheel before getting a big redesign in Beta, or Sora being able to choose between fire, ice and thunder at will instead of it rotating.

A lot of the safe stuff comes from them using Flash to make the game, so it's fairly limited.

 

[EmperorCoal]

Spend all 15 for the bottom row to maximize reward and as our one straggler leave an FE rep to avoid a community wide heart attack

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

Sakurai:
Steve: 1
Ken: 1
Banjo: 5
incineroar: 4
Isabelle: 3
O tto, I still have one point left, who should I use it on guys?

Do I even need to to say it? lol

 

[Dinoman96]

Sakurai:
Steve: 1
Ken: 1
Banjo: 5
incineroar: 4
Isabelle: 3
O tto, I still have one point left, who should I use it on guys?

This image really shows how much of a bubble Smash fans are stuck in lmao

Steve and Hero at like 1-2 points each while ****ing Geno, Isaac, Shantae, and Wonder Red are worth 4-5 points, are you kidding me?

 

[SharkLord]

Spend all 15 for the bottom row to maximize reward and as our one straggler leave an FE rep to avoid a community wide heart attack

...You do realize the bottom row has two FE reps, right? We're gonna be fricked over by the Fire Emblem either way.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I don't think using flash 2 as a base for your reactions is a good idea, while it is well made, they tend to play it safe with some characters.

Well yeah, but he was especially boring in the game for some weird reason. There are certain other characters that are more creative in design so when I got to Lloyd he just didn't captivate me. I'm sure Lloyd would be more interesting than in Flash 2 if he's officially designed by Sakurai, but my lack of knowledge towards the series combined with my disappointing first impressions leave me to be indifferent towards the character.

 

[3BitSaurus]

This image really shows how much of a bubble Smash fans are stuck in lmao

Steve and Hero at like 1-2 points each while ****ing Geno, Isaac, Shantae, and Wonder Red are worth 4-5 points, are you kidding me?

I think... that's kind of the point of this game?

If these characters were lower in the scale, people in the Smash fanbase would just pick all of their favorites and we'd see a lot of similar answers.

Putting them all as 5 while less popular choices score lower is essentially a way to prevent that and force people to make Passes with characters they don't necessarily have as favorites.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Sakurai:
Steve: 1
Ken: 1
Banjo: 5
incineroar: 4
Isabelle: 3
O tto, I still have one point left, who should I use it on guys?

You missed Hero, so you actually have -1 points. Looks like you need to let Sakurai pick another bottom-requested character!