Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

Actually Though, If we only got One RPG Character this Pass, who do you think it would be?

Disregarding Tales, I think a Bravely Default rep is a dark horse.

 

[Guynamednelson]

"IT'S DEFINITELY GONNA BE ENDERMAN, JUST YOU WAIT!"

"What do you mean Enderman and Zombie would be Steve and Alex alts? Do you want Enderman to be smaller and swing a sword around?"

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Actually Though, If we only got One RPG Character this Pass, who do you think it would be?

One from either Nintendo or Square; beyond that I can't say.

 

[SKX31]

I think the ARMS guessing game was because Min Min was taking longer than expected, and so they needed something to tie us over. There's also the fact that ARMS is one of the few games that would work for it. If it was someone big like, say, Steve, I'm sure we would've known who they were right off the bat.

Well, considering the laundry list of stuff she has:

• Mega Man-esque punch system, but instead of shooting pellets no matter the input she punches with really stretchy ARMS. The punches had to be animated individually - contrast Mega Man where Sakurai and co. just needed a lemon to fly across a short distance. Gotta make sure Min Min can angle the ARMS too. Oh and she has two ARMS. Steve shares this trait to a large extent, but is mercifully closer to Mega Man animation-wise than Min Min in that Steve's tools don't have to be reanimated (mostly - gold has less endlag than the other materials, which is the one positive it has).
• Min Min has weapon switching, and that means she effectively has 4 ARMS to be animated. Oh and gotta make sure that they punch properly. Also, gotta make sure that the Dragon ARM(s) fire properly too.
• Even if other moves are more straightforward, she still has two different Up-Bs and three different N-Airs. The N-Airs also have different properties depending on the ARM.

And she shipped with a T-Pose glitch too. Suffice to say, she took a lot longer - and it was likely more difficult - than Sakurai and co. initially anticipated (which is what the Nintendo Direct aknowledged when Mr. Trailer Voice said they'd have to extend the dev period.).

It goes without saying that any character's moveset will be simpler than the game of origin. Smash plays on a 2D plane and only has 2 buttons for moves. That doesn't mean Steve's moveset isn't complex.

Yeah, but I'm talking about how it makes sense WHY he's so complex, that's all. Sorry if my wording is off .

Steve does still have... lets see...

• 5 "Tiered" resources (wood, stone, iron, gold, diamond) + Dirt (which he'll want for blocks mostly, but also TNT) + Redstone (which he'll want for TNT and Minecart).
• 3 different neutral B moves + a Shield-B input.
• Weapon durability like Robin, but he'll have to craft to maintain or upgrade.

It's amazing how much Sakurai and co. still managed to put in. And that's with the whole having to update every single stage in the game thing.

"What do you mean Enderman and Zombie would be Steve and Alex alts? Do you want Enderman to be smaller and swing a sword around?"

ENDAMAN would be too OP, those arms would cause more Z-axis wonkiness than Sakurai could allow!

 

[Nightguything]

Actually Though, If we only got One RPG Character this Pass, who do you think it would be?

I’m leaning towards a tales rep, it’s the last of the former big 3 JRPG’s and isn’t represented in ultimate in any way. That, plus it’s a Namco franchise.

 

[pupNapoleon]

You're asking for arguments for or against and I'm giving them. Tales has consistency, legacy, and global reliability specifically in the gaming space while Digimon has legacy and is only now coming out of a decade+ long slump, which brought down their fan demand in the period Smash is relevant if you think that's a big factor in Nintendo's decision-making. That isn't to say Agumon can't happen, but Lloyd or any other Tales character can as well.

You did sales research, so I'm not sure why you can't take a quick look in a support thread to see what Lloyd would bring to the table in the form of Overlimit and other moveset potential. If you don't want to do that, that's on you.

I've never once said Lloyd couldn't happen. I said I find him to be a silly option.
Digimon is on a resurgence in media right now-- I just dont find Tales' to be that important to gaming history. Nor have I seen a clear reason Lloyd would make a good character, in my eyes. But once again, my opinon of Tales is unrelated to my opinion of Digimon.

 

[pupNapoleon]

You did sales research, so I'm not sure why you can't take a quick look in a support thread to see what Lloyd would bring to the table in the form of Overlimit and other moveset potential. If you don't want to do that, that's on you.

Sorry- if I'm supposed to read through 45 pages of character speculation to understand the premise of why a character is important, then the character isn't important enough. A single sentence, or at least a paragraph, should be able to offer some insight. Forty Five pages would be 1350 posts.... no character should require that read to be understood on a primary level. I doubt you disagree with me.
(How did I double post? Silly computer. Tricks logo here).

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Yuri would be a better character anyway, I like Symphonia but Vesperia has more memorable locations and music.

And it already crossed over with Fire Emblem so it already has a foot in the smash door lol


(That last part was a joke btw)

 

[7NATOR]

Well, considering the laundry list of stuff she has:

• Mega Man-esque punch system, but instead of shooting pellets no matter the input she punches with really stretchy ARMS. The punches had to be animated individually - contrast Mega Man where Sakurai and co. just needed a lemon to fly across a short distance. Gotta make sure Min Min can angle the ARMS too. Oh and she has two ARMS. Steve shares this trait to a large extent, but is mercifully closer to Mega Man animation-wise than Min Min in that Steve's tools don't have to be reanimated (mostly - gold has less endlag than the other materials, which is the one positive it has).
• Min Min has weapon switching, and that means she effectively has 4 ARMS to be animated. Oh and gotta make sure that they punch properly. Also, gotta make sure that the Dragon ARM(s) fire properly too.
• Even if other moves are more straightforward, she still has two different Up-Bs and three different N-Airs. The N-Airs also have different properties depending on the ARM.

And she shipped with a T-Pose glitch too. Suffice to say, she took a lot longer - and it was likely more difficult - than Sakurai and co. initially anticipated (which is what the Nintendo Direct aknowledged when Mr. Trailer Voice said they'd have to extend the dev period.).

This does remind Me. Apparently Min-Min was supposed to Come out in April, if we go by the fact that there were supposed to be Amiibo restocks around that time too, but those got Delayed to June, Along with Apparently Min-Min due to Balancing. Min-Min does have alot of Variables to consider, which I think Some people (Including Me) Forget since it seems like alot of her Moveset is like the Same moves because Min-Min is being true to ARMS

I do Wonder when Nintendo found out that Min-Min was not gonna be a thing in April though. I think they were banking on her coming in April to Capitalize on the ARMS Trial thing

 

[pupNapoleon]

This does remind Me. Apparently Min-Min was supposed to Come out in April, if we go by the fact that there were supposed to be Amiibo restocks around that time too, but those got Delayed to June, Along with Apparently Min-Min due to Balancing. Min-Min does have alot of Variables to consider, which I think Some people (Including Me) Forget since it seems like alot of her Moveset is like the Same moves because Min-Min is being true to ARMS

I do Wonder when Nintendo found out that Min-Min was not gonna be a thing in April though. I think they were banking on her coming in April to Capitalize on the ARMS Trial thing

If the ARMS trial mattered.............why wouldn't it have just been moved? Is there a logical reason?

 

[Schnee117]

Sorry- if I'm supposed to read through 45 pages of character speculation to understand the premise of why a character is important, then the character isn't important enough. A single sentence, or at least a paragraph, should be able to offer some insight. Forty Five pages would be 1350 posts.... no character should require that read to be understood on a primary level. I doubt you disagree with me.
(How did I double post? Silly computer. Tricks logo here).

Literally just read the OP?
You're being needlessly pedantic and argumentative to the point of ridiculousness.

 

[NessAtc.]

Sorry- if I'm supposed to read through 45 pages of character speculation to understand the premise of why a character is important, then the character isn't important enough. A single sentence, or at least a paragraph, should be able to offer some insight. Forty Five pages would be 1350 posts.... no character should require that read to be understood on a primary level. I doubt you disagree with me.
(How did I double post? Silly computer. Tricks logo here).

You're not supposed to at all. It's more or less summed up in the OP post at the top. That's on you if you don't want to skim that.

Quit being such a child, we get it; you endlessly prefer Digimon to Tales, to the point of needlessly undermining Tales just to prove your point. Nobody's buying it though. So just quit it already.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Literally just read the OP?
You're being needlessly pedantic and argumentative to the point of ridiculousness.

Why is it that you can't provide a single answer and yet I'm being "needlessly argumentative?" Why doesnt a single person just stop being evasive and answer the goddamn question? This thread is to discuss newcomers, and not one supporter of Lloyd seems to be able to offer a shred of evidence as to why he been any support, for this 'highly requested character,' who is so popular he outranks popularity polls. Why is this question such a difficult one for Lloyd supporters? I've never seen this with a requested character. I've read a dozen posts saying 'he's popular so he should be in' and not given any reason at all. I truly don't understand this brainwashing.

 

[TwiceEXE]

Why is it that you can't provide a single answer and yet I'm being "needlessly argumentative?" Why doesnt a single person just stop being evasive and answer the goddamn question? This thread is to discuss newcomers, and not a single supporter has offered any support for this 'highly requested character.'

Maybe because no one cares to spend the effort on changing your mind? Saying "This character is silly and doesn't deserve to be in Smash. Tell me I'm wrong" is simply baiting an argument.

Like others have said, there is a specific thread reserved for Lloyd fans and discussion around him. Go there if you want to have an argument about it.

 

[Perkilator]

Why is it that you can't provide a single answer and yet I'm being "needlessly argumentative?" Why doesnt a single person just stop being evasive and answer the goddamn question? This thread is to discuss newcomers, and not one supporter Lloyd seems to be able to offer a shred of evidence as to why he been any support, for this 'highly requested character,' who is so popular he outranks popularity polls. Why is this question such a difficult one for Lloyd supporters? I've never seen this with a requested character. I've read a dozen posts saying 'he's popular so he should be in' and not given any reason at all. I truly don't understand this brainwashing.

THEY JUST SAID TO READ THE OP. YOU WILL FIND YOUR ANSWER THERE.

 

[pupNapoleon]

You're not supposed to at all. It's more or less summed up in the OP post at the top. That's on you if you don't want to skim that.

Quit being such a child, we get it; you endlessly prefer Digimon to Tales, to the point of needlessly undermining Tales just to prove your point. Nobody's buying it though. So just quit it already.

This is ridiculous. I'm not being childish, I'm asking a plethora of people to justify their opinion- which is basic reading comprehension. If you're all incapable, that's not on me. I've stated three times now my distaste for Tales has nothing to do with the games- of which I'm not familiar- nor Digimon, and everything to do with it's supporters, in a support thread, being without stated reason to support him.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Sometimes I think I'm too old to be on this website. If I can read twenty five posts and not find an answer, I don't believe it exists. Y'all made a personally devastating day significantly worse, thanks. Let's go see half of you pretend spirits still 'disconfirm' characters. This is absolutely ridiculous. #lloydforsmashbecausenotasinglepersonknows

 

[Schnee117]

Why is it that you can't provide a single answer and yet I'm being "needlessly argumentative?" Why doesnt a single person just stop being evasive and answer the goddamn question? This thread is to discuss newcomers, and not one supporter of Lloyd seems to be able to offer a shred of evidence as to why he been any support, for this 'highly requested character,' who is so popular he outranks popularity polls. Why is this question such a difficult one for Lloyd supporters? I've never seen this with a requested character. I've read a dozen posts saying 'he's popular so he should be in' and not given any reason at all. I truly don't understand this brainwashing.

I find it hard to believe you can't simply go here and read the OP when you did sales """research""" earlier.
No one owes you an answer, particularly when you're being so obtuse.

 

[SpectreJordan]

Nintendo should just go back to revealing characters before they’re ready. This way you get more “hype” at regular intervals. The initial hype with the reveal trailer & then a couple months later we get the Presentation.

I don’t think anyone cared that we had to wait a couple months until Banjo or Terry came out.

 

[NessAtc.]

Why is it that you can't provide a single answer and yet I'm being "needlessly argumentative?" Why doesnt a single person just stop being evasive and answer the goddamn question? This thread is to discuss newcomers, and not a single supporter Lloyd seems to be able to offer a shred of evidence as to why he been any support, for this 'highly requested character,' who is so popular he outranks popularity polls. Why is this question such a difficult one for Lloyd supporters? I've never seen this with a requested character. I've read a dozen posts saying 'he's popular so he should be in' and not given any reason at all. I truly don't understand this brainwashing.

Look, if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want me to derail the thread, sure, I'll ****in do it.

Lloyd Irving comes from Tales of Symphonia, he wields two swords, and utilizes a self-taught sword style that has some implications of magic. The Tales of series in general has a very smash-like gameplay within battles; you assign moves to directions and buttons in order to keep up your offense, or heal, or what have you. The main mechanic of Tales, to an extent within the combat, is artes chaining, which is basically special cancelling like in fighting games. Lloyd himself is a very agile character that is a close-mid range fighter, with using Demon Fang at range and Tempest for approach.

Of course, his artes are mitigated by TP, and each arte he has uses some of his available TP, so you have to mitigate basic strikes with artes in order to be effective within Tales in general.

The Tales of series also has a phenomenal OST for almost every game, from Symphonia's Like a Glint of Light, to Abyss's Meaning of Birth, to Xillia 2's If it's 4 u, to Vesperia's Fury Sparks, and so on.

This is surface level. If you want MORE, I suggest you go to the actual Lloyd thread.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I find it hard to believe you can't simply go here and read the OP when you did sales """research""" earlier.
No one owes you an answer, particularly when you're being so obtuse.

Yep. This research is still the only empirical data I've seen sourced in this Lloyd chat. Funny, eh?

 

[NessAtc.]

Yep. This research is still the only empirical data I've seen sourced in this Lloyd chat. Funny, eh?

What, you were looking for EMPIRICAL DATA here? As far as I could tell, you wanted to hear why people wanted Lloyd, but didn't feel like going over to the actual thread to see why anyway.

Astounding.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Protip; don't engage and just report when people are acting like this. Once you've given them a sufficient source, it's up to them to actually read it. If they refuse to, it's no longer on you. It's not worth replying when it's clear they don't intend to debate in good faith.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Look, if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, REALLY want me to derail the thread, sure, I'll ****in do it.

Lloyd Irving comes from Tales of Symphonia, he wields two swords, and utilizes a self-taught sword style that has some implications of magic. The Tales of series in general has a very smash-like gameplay within battles; you assign moves to directions and buttons in order to keep up your offense, or heal, or what have you. The main mechanic of Tales, to an extent within the combat, is artes chaining, which is basically special cancelling like in fighting games. Lloyd himself is a very agile character that is a close-mid range fighter, with using Demon Fang at range and Tempest for approach.

Of course, his artes are mitigated by TP, and each arte he has uses some of his available TP, so you have to mitigate basic strikes with artes in order to be effective within Tales in general.

The Tales of series also has a phenomenal OST for almost every game, from Symphonia's Like a Glint of Light, to Abyss's Meaning of Birth, to Xillia 2's If it's 4 u, to Vesperia's Fury Sparks, and so on.

This is surface level. If you want MORE, I suggest you go to the actual Lloyd thread.

I'm not derailing a speculation thread by asking for a single statement of logic towards speculation. That's the singular focus of this thread, which a week ago was talking about Porn.

That said, I appreciate ten seconds of explanation.

 

[pupNapoleon]

What, you were looking for EMPIRICAL DATA here? As far as I could tell, you wanted to hear why people wanted Lloyd, but didn't feel like going over to the actual thread to see why anyway.

Astounding.

Yeah, I honestly thought that there could be a single sentence from one of a dozen people that would tell me anything useful. My bad. I clearly expect too much. Empirical might not be all that matters to Smash, but it certainly means verifiable data. A thread that cannot even be paraphrased does not qualify as empirical data, by any margin.

 

[Cosmic77]

This does remind Me. Apparently Min-Min was supposed to Come out in April, if we go by the fact that there were supposed to be Amiibo restocks around that time too, but those got Delayed to June, Along with Apparently Min-Min due to Balancing. Min-Min does have alot of Variables to consider, which I think Some people (Including Me) Forget since it seems like alot of her Moveset is like the Same moves because Min-Min is being true to ARMS

I do Wonder when Nintendo found out that Min-Min was not gonna be a thing in April though. I think they were banking on her coming in April to Capitalize on the ARMS Trial thing

I think you're relying too much on amiibo for the release dates of these characters.

If they were able to air the March Direct Mini as scheduled without doing a complete overhaul, then I don't think there were many dates that had to be changed at the time. Plus, an early April release doesn't seem to go along with Sakurai's statement about F6 requiring a little bit more time than people are used to. The time between Byleth and Min Min may have actually been shorter than the time between Joker and Hero.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I think you're relying too much on amiibo for the release dates of these characters.

If they were able to air the March Direct Mini as scheduled without doing a complete overhaul, then I don't think there were many dates that had to be changed at the time. Plus, an early April release doesn't seem to go along with Sakurai's statement about F6 requiring a little bit more time than people are used to. The time between Byleth and Min Min may have actually been shorter than the time between Joker and Hero.

What was the last time three amiibo were released at once? Quickly Googling...

 

[CHAMPIONX9]

I think having to balance Sol Badguy having anime fighter mechanics against a cast without air dashing, burst, Roman cancels etc., plus having a large number of specials would take plenty of time. If disabling an AT when someone's playing as Isaac doesn't take plenty of time, giving him different specials depending on what Djinn are equipped would.

...this is going to turn into "explain why your most wanted characters would take a buttload of work" isn't it

I can imagine. Fighting Sol in mugen is a pain.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I want Lloyd because I have nostalgia for Tales of Symphonia. It was one of my first true JRPG games, and one that I had always had an interest in when I was younger.

I first played it during my first year of college. The gameplay was cool, I was engaged in the plot, and I really just liked the idea of a dual sword user.

Now, other folks may disagree and want a different Tales character. I haven’t played Berseria or Vesperia. But I really like Lloyd and, if he gets in, would be quite happy about his inclusion.

Does that work as a reason why people want him in Smash?

 

[StrangeKitten]

Nintendo should just go back to revealing characters before they’re ready. This way you get more “hype” at regular intervals. The initial hype with the reveal trailer & then a couple months later we get the Presentation.

I don’t think anyone cared that we had to wait a couple months until Banjo or Terry came out.

I agree. I prefer it this way, and it makes the wait seem less. I don't know why they haven't been releasing trailers early like they used to. I understand covid slows things down, of course. Just don't see why it would make them unable to get the trailers out a month or so ahead of time. If they think it's a better marketing strategy, I can't fathom why. I especially like when we see little to nothing of the actual moveset. Makes it fun to wonder how they'll play for a while.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I want Lloyd because I have nostalgia for Tales of Symphonia. It was one of my first true JRPG games, and one that I had always had an interest in when I was younger.

I first played it during my first year of college. The gameplay was cool, I was engaged in the plot, and I really just liked the idea of a dual sword user.

Now, other folks may disagree and want a different Tales character. I haven’t played Berseria or Vesperia. But I really like Lloyd and, if he gets in, would be quite happy about his inclusion.

Does that work as a reason why people want him in Smash?

Personal attachment? Yes. It's honestly only the second attempt at an explanation. I don't understand why it was such a problem to ask for....what we argue about in here in literally every post. Understanding.

 

[Shroob]

There is no need to debate dates

There is no need to debate who's deserving or not

There is no need to debate the validity of leaks


There is only one thing that must be done

Spoiler: Return to Monke

 

[Cosmic77]

What was the last time three amiibo were released at once? Quickly Googling...

Isabelle and PP were getting reprinted in January. If I had to take a guess, they delayed the amiibo because K. Rool got reprinted in early March.

So either K. Rool being reprinted right smack when the restrictions started taking effect caused production to slow down, or they decided to hold back Isabelle and PP so they could tack on K. Rool and release them all at once.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I had a 7th grader say he was going to dress up as Pepsiman for Halloween.

He’s in.

 

[cosmicB]

I've never once said Lloyd couldn't happen. I said I find him to be a silly option.
Digimon is on a resurgence in media right now-- I just dont find Tales' to be that important to gaming history. Nor have I seen a clear reason Lloyd would make a good character, in my eyes. But once again, my opinon of Tales is unrelated to my opinion of Digimon.

So what do you want me to say to make you change your mind on him being a "silly" option? Go over the legacy of the Tales series and how it influenced ARPGs going forward? Talk about the battle system and how a lot of its DNA is already in Smash 4/Ultimate due to Namco and specifically Tales team member veterans' involvement? Mention Sakurai being a fan of the series?

Or is this a wasted effort and you've already made up your mind? Because there's no objective answer to any of this, just like there's no objective answer related to Agumon's inclusion, which you say is irrelevant but your entire argument up to this point has hinged on Digimon being the more "worthy" Namco franchise, so I'm not sure what to say here.

 

[7NATOR]

The Amiibo Thing with Min-Min admittedly wasn't my Theory, and I didn't do in depth research into that. I just remembered that being a Speculation point in favor of Min-Min supposedly to release in April

As for Lloyd, I'm not into him much at all, But as long as People want him in Smash (or just want Tales Of to get a character) and he could do cool things with TWO Swords and an Aggressive Combo System (which would be good flavor among Characters like Min-Min and Steve who aren't really Close quarter fighters), I don't think he's Really a Silly Option. Tales of has been a Successful Series too, so even if it's not as Big as Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest, there is still merit to be had

Now the Question is whether he can get a Slot in FP2 over other characters. It's stiff competition and whether Lloyd would be one of the characters depends on Sakurai and Nintendo. I think Lloyd has a Shot, but Honestly I'm predicting he'd just stay as a Mii

Isabelle and PP were getting reprinted in January. If I had to take a guess, they delayed the amiibo because K. Rool got reprinted in early March.

So either K. Rool being reprinted right smack when the restrictions started taking effect caused production to slow down, or they decided to hold back Isabelle and PP so they could tack on K. Rool and release them all at once.

Ahh, see I never knew that. I honestly just say that Amiibo and Min-Min were separate endeavors this time, with this info in mind

 

[StrangeKitten]

I want Lloyd or Yuri because we don't have a swordie who is all that combo-centric yet, and that would be a really fun playstyle for me. Is it a weird and selfish reason to want them? Yeah, but neither are most wanteds of mine anyway, though I do like em.

 

[Lamperouge]

So with one of the slots already confirmed to be Pepsiman, what other characters are you guys hoping to see??

I want the California Raisins!

 

[Shroob]

So with one of the slots already confirmed to be Pepsiman, what other characters are you guys hoping to see??

I want the California Raisins!

Ah yeah, he's in.

 

[pupNapoleon]

Go over the legacy of the Tales series and how it influenced ARPGs going forward? Talk about the battle system and how a lot of its DNA is already in Smash 4/Ultimate due to Namco and specifically Tales team member veterans' involvement? Mention Sakurai being a fan of the series?

Yeah. Any answer at all would have been nice. This thread has been as irrational as for Geno. Again, it talked about porn a week ago. I cannot comprehend why it took me so long to get even the slightest answer, but at least now there are two options and.... this talk you mention about why people find it unique. I don't expect anyone to make me Team Lloyd, I just thought there'd be.... any reasoning to this overwhelming consensus.