Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Also, Plant has an arguably unique problem of relying too heavily on those B moves.

This is very arguable, as a ton of characters (usually keepaway characters) rely a bunch on their Special Moves. The issue is pretty pronounced in Piranha Plant though, and its design could be greatly improved with better normals.

I still low-key wish that Long-Stem Strike grabbed ledges. It would probably be overpowered but man would it be fun (and quite hilarious too).

 

[TyrantLizardKing]

To me Smash wouldn't be the same without off-the-wall, quirky-but-important choices like . I totally agree that being unhappy with them is fine (coming from a Shadow fan who had Plant memes rubbed in their face for weeks after that day), but at the same they give Smash a really fun identity and freshness. It's why I continuously put my faith in Mr. Sakurai & his team, because they make these kinds of picks that the fanbase would never consider.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If Smash slots weren't a finite resource I could understand thinking Plant was a good choice. Unfortunately, they are indeed finite. The development time for that character would have been more appreciated if it was almost any other character. There is a reason no one lists Goombas or Moblins as their most wanted; they just don't matter compared to other characters.

The argument that Plant is fun to play and therefore was a good choice holds no water because it necessarily assumes other character options would not be fun to play. Most likely, another character would also be fun to play while making people happy because a character they like was added.

Piranha Plant is a good choice because it adds value to the game with its new and fun playstyle. That's it. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. Sure there might have been better choices, but it doesn't follow that the existence of better choices makes a choice bad in my opinion, finite roster space or no.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

Dang it, I wanted to make that joke!

Seriously, though, he looks a LOT like Ryu in that picture. Was that intentional?

It's hard to tell, but it looks like they're using his appearance from Virtua Fighter 4 onward, which does make him look like Ryu a bit.

Spoiler: Akira's design from Virtua Fighter 4 and 5 (spoiler-ed for size)

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I like to think that the only reason Akira was relegated to assist trophy instead of playable is because Virtua fighter is honestly pretty boring in comparison to Street fighter, Tekken and KOF.

 

[TwiceEXE]

Piranha Plant is a good choice because it adds value to the game with its new and fun playstyle. That's it. End of discussion as far as I'm concerned. Sure there might have been better choices, but it doesn't follow that the existence of better choices makes a choice bad in my opinion, finite roster space or no.

Well if you look at it from that perspective there cannot be a bad choice. The rest of the DLC could be 5 different versions of Mario and it would be good decisions. We can agree to disagree because I don't think that logic is sound.

 

[Deleted member]

There is a reason no one lists Goombas or Moblins as their most wanted

Er..... yeah, that would be ridiculous.........

 

[MooMew64]

- Sees Plant debate still going on

- Checks calendar

...Huh, that's odd, it doesn't say that it's November 2018...

Real talk, I don't think you can quantify a Smash character as "objectively" good or bad. It's entertainment, which is rooted in subjective taste and preferences. Liking or not liking Plant isn't right or wrong, just like him being in the game isn't right or wrong. That's my take on it, at least.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Er..... yeah, that would be ridiculous.........

Are you thinking normal Goombas... or Goombas with hats?

 

[Deleted member]

Are you thinking normal Goombas... or Goombas with hats?

Why not both?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Sonic

Just because too many of his moves have the same animation doesn't mean Sonic players just use one move over and over

So in light of a certain Sega series potentially being announced at TGS to make a comeback, I would like to reiterate my support for a character who has been """deconfirmed""" via Assist Trophy and Mii Fighter costume, yet would still be a cool playable addition to Smash...

How would he handle recovering though?

 

[Deleted member]

is a very nice addition. "WTF" characters always make Ultimate more fun.

 

[Cosmic77]

Honestly, if Sakurai always had the mentality of, "I gotta add popular characters!! I gotta use these character slots wisely!!" then quite a few characters would never have made it in Smash. That includes Ness, Ice Climbers, Mr. Game and Watch, ROB, WFT, Duck Hunt, and yes, Piranha Plant.

There have been times when people were happy that Sakurai added a character they didn't want. Other times, people never get over that "wasted slot". Regardless of where you fall with any of these characters, I don't think there's really any possible way to make a clear, straightforward list of qualities these characters need to be "good" without contradicting yourself.

 

[Dinoman96]

Between Heihachi getting Mii costume'd twice and Virtua Fighter just getting an AT and Mii costumes, I think Sakurai just doesn't quite know how to make a traditional 3D fighter character work in the context of Smash Bros.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

It's hard to tell, but it looks like they're using his appearance from Virtua Fighter 4 onward, which does make him look like Ryu a bit.

He does look a ton like Ryu, especially with the predominantly white color scheme. I wonder if this would pose a pretty steep challenge to make sure casual players couldn't mistake one for the other at a glance. I highly doubt this would completely stop him from getting in though, especially considering that Marth, Lucina, Roy, and Chrom all have basically the same stance and all wear capes so their silhouettes are all big rectangles anyway. Also, I think Roy always puts his sword hand over his chest when idle which is just...why would you do that?

Just because too many of his moves have the same animation doesn't mean Sonic players just use one move over and over

Ah! You're right. He uses two of them because they have slightly different properties!

 

[Guynamednelson]

Between Heihachi getting Mii costume'd twice and Virtua Fighter just getting an AT and Mii costumes, I think Sakurai just doesn't quite know how to make a traditional 3D fighter character work in the context of Smash Bros.

Sakurai said "implementing Heihachi’s movement in Smash would be difficult", but I think the real, real issue is the lack of moves in 3D fighters that scream "up-B".

 

[Deleted member]

Between Heihachi getting Mii costume'd twice and Virtua Fighter just getting an AT and Mii costumes, I think Sakurai just doesn't quite know how to make a traditional 3D fighter character work in the context of Smash Bros.

Don't underestimate the development team. Sakurai and the team managed to make a move-set for .

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Smash 4 struck a good balance in this regard.

It had wacky literal who's like Bayonetta, Shulk and Wiifit trainer and mixed it with gaming legends like Cloud, Megaman and duck hunt.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Sakurai said "implementing Heihachi’s movement in Smash would be difficult", but I think the real, real issue is the lack of moves in 3D fighters that scream "up-B".

I dunno. There are a few characters in Super Smash Bros. already with this problem. In which case they usually make something up like with Duck Jump, or say "he does a little hop here. Recovery move it is!" like with Air Slash.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Every good quality that people like about Piranha Plant in Smash would have been shared by any character that was chosen to be instead in its place. That's why it's a bad pick.

 

[MooMew64]

Smash 4 struck a good balance in this regard.

It had wacky literal who's like Bayonetta, Shulk and Wiifit trainer and mixed it with gaming legends like Cloud, Megaman and duck hunt.

I, uh, wouldn't call Wii Fit Trainer a literal who...

Honestly, I wouldn't call Shulk or Bayo literal whos either, TBH. Especially not when Bayo 2 was as popular as it was on the Wii U.

 

[Guynamednelson]

He does look a ton like Ryu, especially with the predominantly white color scheme. I wonder if this would pose a pretty steep challenge to make sure casual players couldn't mistake one for the other at a glance.

His flaming gi would help

 

[Hinata]

So, I haven't been reading this thread today, but I assume we're all 100% confident on Age of Calamity Impa getting in Smash, right? Like, it's just a sure thing at this point, obviously.

please sakurai she may have just come into existence today for us but i think she looks cool

 

[Evil Trapezium]

In my opinion, "WTF" characters really lose their novelty after their initial reveal and their playstyle becomes too cumbersome for me to enjoy so I pretty much ignore their existence. I'd rather just have iconic characters who play decently, duking it out against each other.

 

[N3ON]

My point was more about how the fanbase handles characters pre and post reveal rather than being a direct indictment of the plant specifically. I just think the plant is the best example.

It is a generalization, because of course there are those who would've been behind the concept of the plant pre-inclusion, and there are those who remain consistent in their opinions of characters, but there are a very large amount of people who fit under the generalization, from what I've seen. On this site more than others.

All Smash communities have their specific flaws, and some go far too deep off the negativity end to the point of it being an attack, which often makes conversing unpleasant. But being critical or taking issue with a decision in general is not a bad thing. It's all in how you handle it. This site is often loathed to entertain any remark against any inclusion, often no matter how benign, which is ironic because it's not like people don't say negative things about characters before they get included. Doing a prompt about-face post-inclusion just seems a little hypocritical when it happens with such regularity.

And to be fair, about Piranha Plant - I'm not against WTF choices, and I'm not against Mario characters, and I'm not against surprising additions. I prefer fan-favourites, but I can't fault the roster for having a balance. I just don't think the plant was a particularly good choice for any of those above categories.

 

[ZephyrZ]

The funny thing with Plant is that I think if it had come in the early days of Smash, it would have been seen as wacky, but not necessarily as a fighter that most would dislike or roll their eyes at.

Coming in when the series had become such a huge deal, with legendary third party characters, and a sense of scale practically unmatched by any other fighting game? Yeah, it ended up sticking out a lot more, regardless of the actual quality of the fighter.

I think there is a reason no one complains about Ness, Mr.Game&Watch or Ice Climbers stealing "roster slots". Part of that is also Melee/64 nostalgia too.

Heck, on that note I think one day people will have similar nostalgia for Piranha Plant, Wii Fit Trainer and even Corrin. If one of them were hypothetically to be cut in a future Smash game I think they'd have people campaigning to get them back just like what happened to Ice Climbers.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

His flaming gi would help

Oh man that's a cool look! Can we get that one please?

 

[Deleted member]

In my opinion, "WTF" characters really lose their novelty after their initial reveal and their playstyle becomes too cumbersome for me to enjoy so I pretty much ignore their existence. I'd rather just have iconic characters who play decently, duking it out against each other.

All of the , , , , and mains when reading this:

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Heck, on that note I think one day people will have similar nostalgia for Piranha Plant, Wii Fit Trainer and even Corrin. If one of them were hypothetically to be cut in a future Smash game I think they'd have people campaigning to get them back just like what happened to Ice Climbers.

To be honest, it might not even be a stretch to say that if Fire Emblem: Fates and Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade were released in the opposite order as well as their respective characters in Super Smash Bros., Corrin would be the beloved one and Roy would be the butt monkey for the fanbase.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I think the comparison between Piranha Plant and other "unexpected" characters like WFT, Game & Watch, Duck Hunt, etc falls apart because being unexpected is pretty much the only thing they have in common. Those characters represent games that sold millions and shaped gaming history. What does Plant stand for? It's the ninth fighter in a series, and doesn't hail from any specific subseries.

 

[Perkilator]

On the topic of Mario mooks; what would be the general reaction if Hammer Bro got in instead of Piranha Plant?

 

[Slime Master]

My possibly hot take on plant: the fact that it's recognizable is only tangent to what makes it a good pick: your average casual player sees it on the roster and has a positive "haha you can play as a piranha plant" response, and plenty of people are inclined to play as it because of that. It's not really about "deserving" the spot, it's about people wanting to play as the character for non-gameplay reasons.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Also consider that since they are at point-blank range, and you can't dodge a bullet even at a far range, these guys are either psychic, rolling when they foresee a bullet coming their way, or they're missing on purpose by firing where their opponent was rather than where they are. And, it's likely the latter since they were firing at each other's feet when they were running in circles.

Clearly it has to do with the power of the Monado.

I always wondered in X-COM or in Fallout how soldiers could miss each other when being that close. Leave it to Resident Evil to provide a real time example of how it happens.

Real time strategy, but without the strategy.

 

[SneakyLink]

On the topic of Mario mooks; what would be the general reaction if Hammer Bro got in instead of Piranha Plant?

The reaction might’ve been worse considering Hammer Bro would be a upgraded Assist Trophy.

 

[Evil Trapezium]

All of the , , , , and mains when reading this:
View attachment 286880

I like Rob though. He isn't too bad and I did like Mr. Game & Watch until he got that new forward air.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I just kinda view characters like Phoenix Wright and Rayman in the same light

As in, they seem to have notable Smash followings...but I'm just not sure if they're notable enough to be noticed by Nintendo/Sakurai, as Ridley, Mega Man, Banjo, K. Rool, etc were.

Man how do you see this ****, which for the record, is 8 years old, and think "This character who introduced many people to a gaming genre probably went unnoticed"

****, MvC3's Ultimate newcomers leaked because the pages for the new characters were up meaning you could easily access them if you typed it manually, take a wild guess who was one of the first characters people tried searching for

 

[Hadokeyblade]

To be honest, it might not even be a stretch to say that if Fire Emblem: Fates and Fire Emblem: The Binding Blade were released in the opposite order as well as their respective characters in Super Smash Bros., Corrin would be the beloved one and Roy would be the butt monkey for the fanbase.

You made me imagine a gender swapped Roy. Neat.

 

[ROBnWatch]

All of the , , , , and mains when reading this:
View attachment 286880

Can confirm, this is me after reading that.

I like Rob though. He isn't too bad and I did like Mr. Game & Watch until he got that new forward air.

You’ve redeemed yourself. Not fully, but mostly. Lol.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I'm fine with the plant, personally. I think it was a fun addition.

On the other hand, WFT matters so little to me that I sometimes totally forget they're even in the game. There are no other playable characters in the franchise I can say that about.

At the end of the day, it boils down to opinion.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

On the topic of Mario mooks; what would be the general reaction if Hammer Bro got in instead of Piranha Plant?

About the same probably. Probably with even less people liking it since it would be a fairly standard character.

My possibly hot take on plant: the fact that it's recognizable is only tangent to what makes it a good pick: your average casual player sees it on the roster and has a positive "haha you can play as a piranha plant" response, and plenty of people are inclined to play as it because of that. It's not really about "deserving" the spot, it's about people wanting to play as the character for non-gameplay reasons.

This is just anecdotal, but I recently showed my uncle (who hasn't seen Super Smash Bros. since Brawl) various new characters, and Piranha Plant was his favorite, even though Ryu and Ken were who stuck out to him the most initially.

You made me imagine a gender swapped Roy. Neat.

Huh...This is not something I would have ever considered, but Roy probably would make a pretty girl. lol

EDIT: And somehow this thought process lead me to imagining Marth, Roy, and some others in a KPop boy band.