Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[SMAASH! Puppy]

You and Perkilator are seriously asking to get blown away by a challenger pack that's an upgraded assist.

Well we won't, but it'd be a nice surprise.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I'm gonna wait until FP8 and if no AT upgrades happens by then I'll gladly throw in the towel and admit AT upgrades are never happening until the next game. A couple of my most wanted characters are ATs and the more time passes the more I feel they will be stuck like that for the remainder of Ultimate's life. It just feels pointless and frustrating to delude myself into thinking the characters I want have a chance of happening. Sometimes letting go really is the answer.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Well we won't, but it'd be a nice surprise.

Never say never. Otherwise you get FP1 ending with Byleth instead of a third-party and FP2 not starting with Crash.

 

[Perkilator]

Alright, it's time to place your bets! Pick up to 3 of the picks that you think are most likely, and predict their Mii Costumes. Example:
Rex & Pyra/Mythra:

1. Zeke Wig & Zeke Outfit (Swordfighter)
2. Torra Hat (All)
3. Morag's Hat & Morag's Outfit (Swordfighter)
4. Lora Wig & Lora Outfit (Brawler)
5. Lloyd Wig & Lloyd Outfit (Swordfighter)
6. Gil's Helmet & Gil's Armour (Swordfighter)

Sora

1. Organization XIII Coat (Universal)
2. Soldier Hat (Universal)
3. Garreg Mach Monastery Uniform (Swordfighter)
4. Mach Rider (Gunner)
5. Glass Joe (Brawler)
6. Geno (Gunner) (Comes with Beware the Forest’s Mushrooms (New Remix))

Crash Bandicoot

1. Dr. Neo Cortex (Gunner)
2. Spyro Hat (Universal)
3. Gil (Swordfighter)
4. Ring Fit Trainee (Brawler)
5. Champion Leon outfit (Brawler)
6. Frank West (Swordfighter)

 

[Deleted member]

I am on the "ATs deconfirm" camp.

ATs can easily happen next game, though.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I'm gonna wait until FP8 and if no AT upgrades happens by then I'll gladly throw in the towel and admit AT upgrades are never happening until the next game. A couple of my most wanted characters are ATs and the more time passes the more I feel they will be stuck like that for the remainder of Ultimate's life. It just feels pointless and frustrating to delude myself into thinking the characters I want have a chance of happening. Sometimes letting go really is the answer.

Oh yeah, by FP8 if we haven't gotten one I will definitely stop fighting against the "it hasn't happened yet, so it can never ever ever ever EVER happen" argument. Until then, I will only believe such an argument is only valid against non-video game characters.

 

[Ramen Tengoku]

My stance on the matter is that if they were cool with upgrading a character in a base game role like Min Min, I don't think assist upgrades are out of the realm of possibility.

But whether it will happen... Eh?... At this point the only one I'm feeling would even take priority is Waluigi. Well... I guess I could see Bomberman too. The others I feel are either outclassed or have other stuff going against them.

 

[cashregister9]

Never say never. Otherwise you get FP1 ending with Byleth instead of a third-party and FP2 not starting with Crash.

Fire Emblem Bad, Give Like

 

[Deleted member]

Spirits no longer deconfirm, but I think ATs still deconfirm.

ATs are quite different compared to spirits.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Fire Emblem Bad, Give Like

Always Be Paranoid About FE Hatred. Give Like.

 

[3BitSaurus]

Honestly, if ATs really were that big of a roadblock, you'd think Sakurai would have said it flat out during the ARMS stream. It was the perfect opportunity and he definitely doesn't have any reason not to.

So what's more likely is that he (or Nintendo) would rather add someone else instead of Spring Man / Waluigi / Isaac / whoever instead of some weird "noooo, there can be NO OVERLAP" mentality.

 

[SharkLord]

I just go by the logic of "Min Min got in by her own merits and not because she's a poor man's Spring Man, ergo Assist Trophies are no longer an obstacle." The thing is, the Assist Trophies that could support their own Challenger's Pack have their own issues-For instance, lack of recency for Isaac. If there aren't any Assist Trophy promotions, I'll just assume it's because the potential ATs couldn't overcome their other issues and leave it at that.

 

[cashregister9]

Always Be Paranoid About FE Hatred. Give Like.

There are only so many options that your original post could be insinuating.

 

[Deleted member]

Alright, it's time to place your bets! Pick up to 3 of the picks that you think are most likely, and predict their Mii Costumes. Example:
Rex & Pyra/Mythra:

1. Zeke Wig & Zeke Outfit (Swordfighter)
2. Torra Hat (All)
3. Morag's Hat & Morag's Outfit (Swordfighter)
4. Lora Wig & Lora Outfit (Brawler)
5. Lloyd Wig & Lloyd Outfit (Swordfighter)
6. Gil's Helmet & Gil's Armour (Swordfighter)

Phoenix Wright

1. Edgeworth Outfit (Brawler)
2. Maya Outfit (Gunner)
3. Judge's Beard (All)
4. Apollo's Outfit (Swordfighter)
5. Geno Outfit (Gunner)
6. Steve Outfit (Swordfighter)

 

[Dinoman96]

Here's the real problem with assist trophies: the vast majority of them are characters Sakurai/Nintendo was never going to make playable, anyways.

Like they're not going to make Waluigi playable in this game because "welp, he's already an assist trophy, can't work around that", it's because he's ****ing Waluigi and they obviously don't care about him or think he should be playable. Same thing with Isaac, Krystal, Ashley, etc. It's harsh, but most ATs are just irrelevant side characters or protagonists from dead C-D series Nintendo has no interest in pushing.

Keep in mind that over three games, only three characters have every been upgraded from AT status: Little Mac, Dark Samus and Isabelle and all three of them have had special circumstances (Little Mac getting a new game, Isabelle becoming the mascot of AC and Dark Samus functioning as a quick and dirty echo fighter) that most other AT characters just haven't. The fact that characters like Waluigi, Samurai Goroh and Lyn have remained ATs for three games now is a testament to that.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

Honestly, if ATs really were that big of a roadblock, you'd think Sakurai would have said it flat out during the ARMS stream. It was the perfect opportunity and he definitely doesn't have any reason not to.

So what's more likely is that he (or Nintendo) would rather add someone else instead of Spring Man / Waluigi / Isaac / whoever instead of some weird "noooo, there can be NO OVERLAP" mentality.

This.

Sakurai's been rather upfront about development, so when he had the perfect opportunity with the inclusion of an ARMS character to address Assist Trophies and whether or not they could become playable, why didn't he just say "Spring Man was ineligible because he is currently an Assist Trophy"?

 

[Shroob]

This.

Sakurai's been rather upfront about development, so when he had the perfect opportunity with the inclusion of an ARMS character to address Assist Trophies and whether or not they could become playable, why didn't he just say "Spring Man was ineligible because he is currently an Assist Trophy"?

But they also kinda just, glossed over him entirely. They only mentioned him twice iirc, once when doing the whole "EVERYONE'S THE PROTAGONIST!" thing, and the 2nd time as a joke to reference a character with the name Spring Man from another series.


They barely mentioned Spring Man period, to the point that Minmin's official poster art kinda makes fun of him.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

But they also kinda just, glossed over him entirely. They only mentioned him twice iirc, once when doing the whole "EVERYONE'S THE PROTAGONIST!" thing, and the 2nd time as a joke to reference a character with the name Spring Man from another series.


They barely mentioned Spring Man period, to the point that Minmin's official poster art kinda makes fun of him.

... and? That doesn't change that they could've just made a quick statement that Assist Trophies are deconfirmations, yet they didn't.

 

[Shroob]

... and? That doesn't change that they could've just made a quick statement that Assist Trophies are deconfirmations, yet they didn't.

They could have sure, but it's also very strange how they really didn't want to talk about him period.

 

[Dinoman96]

ARMS is just a weird case because it's an all new IP with an ensemble cast, and it doesn't really have a story mode to truly establish Spring Man as the definitive main character of the game. By the time Ryu and Terry got in, they already had 30+ years of history to really establish themselves as the face of their respective series/companies. Spring Man, well, just isn't on that level. That's probably why Sakurai/Nintendo just wasn't compelled to make him the ARMS rep in Smash Bros., especially with there being more popular characters like Min Min to choose from.

To me, him being passed over for Min Min isn't that far removed from Sakurai choosing Robin over Chrom back in Smash 4. He obviously has a "protagonist first" mindset, but if possible, he'll find ways to bend the rules a little and get the more interesting option.

 

[Deleted member]

Fire Emblem Bad, Give Like

Congratulations.

 

[cashregister9]

If I recall the only thing that Sakurai said that outright deconfirms something is when he said that all characters have to be from Video games. All the stuff that we talk about Deconfirming like new Spirit Events and Mii Costumes never outright came from Sakurai so I don't think that would change very much for assists.

 

[Guynamednelson]

To me, him being passed over for Min Min isn't that far removed from Sakurai choosing Robin over Chrom back in Smash 4. He obviously has a "protagonist first" mindset, but if possible, he'll find ways to bend the rules a little and get the more interesting option.

Yeah, I'm basically thinking what really happened was Sakurai thinking Spring Man was more limited, so he stays represented in a format that has a limited moveset.

 

[SharkLord]

But they also kinda just, glossed over him entirely. They only mentioned him twice iirc, once when doing the whole "EVERYONE'S THE PROTAGONIST!" thing, and the 2nd time as a joke to reference a character with the name Spring Man from another series.


They barely mentioned Spring Man period, to the point that Minmin's official poster art kinda makes fun of him.

... and? That doesn't change that they could've just made a quick statement that Assist Trophies are deconfirmations, yet they didn't.

I agree with both statements here. Spring Man was glossed over in Min Min's overview quite a bit, yes... But if he's what everyone was expecting due to being the protagonist, it would make sense to at least have an off-handed comment about how "Spring Man is already a part of the battle as an Assist Trophy, so he can't be a fighter!" Evidently, Spring Man and his situation is trivial enough that he only gets a couple offhanded comments regarding him.

 

[zeldasmash]

They could have sure, but it's also very strange how they really didn't want to talk about him period.

Probably because they really didn't want another Smash 4 Chrom scenario with him.

 

[Idon]

An important distinction to make:

I, and many others, don't think assist trophies prevent the inclusion of a character, rather that the status of being an assist character is direct evidence that they were never going to be added that game to begin with, their popularity being recognized, but out of choice/necessity, not including them as full characters. It is therefore redundant to say "ATs were deconfirmed for their other factors not relating to being an AT" when being an AT is representative of said factors.

To say that people are thinking "ATs deconfirm characters" is at best ignoring a lot of logic out and at worst misrepresenting what is being said to argue something against something much easier.

Now on the off-chance I eat crow and get a decades old character from a game that hasn't been relevant for equally as long. hey, I'm gonna be ecstatic if it's Lyn.

 

[Guynamednelson]

If I recall the only thing that Sakurai said that outright deconfirms something is when he said that all characters have to be from Video games. All the stuff that we talk about Deconfirming like new Spirit Events and Mii Costumes never outright came from Sakurai so I don't think that would change very much for assists.

I definitely believe there's a huge difference between acting like non-video game characters can NEVER EVER EVER happen, and AT-promoting DLC can't. Both ideas are pushed by random internet nerds wishing to keep the roster "pure", however, Sakurai has addressed that there could be issues acquiring all the necessary licenses for characters like Goku and Iron Man, but with the ARMS rep he just keeps saying things like Min Min being more interesting.

 

[AceAttorney9000]

They could have sure, but it's also very strange how they really didn't want to talk about him period.

I get not focusing too much on Spring Man because it's a Min Min presentation and they would rather focus on, well, Min Min. The weird part is that they didn't even take a quick second to address the former's Assist Trophy status.

 

[Shroob]

I definitely believe there's a huge difference between acting like non-video game characters can NEVER EVER EVER happen, and AT-promoting DLC can't. Both ideas are pushed by random internet nerds wishing to keep the roster "pure", however, Sakurai has addressed that there could be issues acquiring all the necessary licenses for characters like Goku and Iron Man, but with the ARMS rep he just keeps saying things like Min Min being more interesting.

No, you're thinking the "3rd party bad" crowd.

 

[epicmartin7]

Well we won't, but it'd be a nice surprise.

Smash... has no such thing as rules. All the "rules" Smash has is from made-up misconceptions over the years.

The concept that an AT can't become a character through DLC is an example of one of these misconceptions. Nothing regarding Assist Trophies have been said either way. So while we don't know an answer, nothing is fact at this point.

 

[Guynamednelson]

No, you're thinking the "3rd party bad" crowd.

It's all nerds wishing the keep the roster "pure". Always has been.

 

[Shroob]

It's all nerds wishing the keep the roster "pure". Always has been.

We're all nerds, nerds calling nerds nerds is probably one of the most redundant thing.

Now excuse me, I'm gonna put Nerds on the TV and open a box of Nerds while I argue with nerds.

 

[cashregister9]

I definitely believe there's a huge difference between acting like non-video game characters can NEVER EVER EVER happen, and AT-promoting DLC can't. Both ideas are pushed by random internet nerds wishing to keep the roster "pure", however, Sakurai has addressed that there could be issues acquiring all the necessary licenses for characters like Goku and Iron Man, but with the ARMS rep he just keeps saying things like Min Min being more interesting.

I wasn't really referencing the licensing issues and more Sakurai has never outright said anything like "We can't add heihachi so here is a mii costume" so why would that happen for Assists

EDIT: I understand something similar was said for Sans but I don't think any words that explictly deconfirm Mii costumes

 

[Hadokeyblade]

Is it weird that I actually want MORE assist trophies added?

Not everyone can be playable so maybe add some side characters that weren't getting in anyway as assists so they can still show up on the battlefield.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

The concept that an AT can't become a character through DLC is an example of one of these misconceptions. Nothing regarding Assist Trophies have been said either way. So while we don't know an answer, nothing is fact at this point.

It's something that came from the devs themselves. It's as close to a fact as you can get.

 

[SharkLord]

An important distinction to make:

I, and many others, don't think assist trophies prevent the inclusion of a character, rather that the status of being an assist character is direct evidence that they were never going to be added that game to begin with, their popularity being recognized, but out of choice/necessity, not including them as full characters. It is therefore redundant to say "ATs were deconfirmed for their other factors not relating to being an AT" when being an AT is representative of said factors.

To say that people are thinking "ATs deconfirm characters" is at best ignoring a lot of logic out and at worst misrepresenting what is being said to argue something against something much easier.

Now on the off-chance I eat crow and get a deacades old character from a game that hasn't been relevant for equally as long. hey, I'm gonna be ecstatic if it's Lyn.

Another thing to note is that the base game's collection of newcomers is tiny compared to what we're used to; Only 11 newcomers, with a mere six actually being original. In addition, there's only four new stages, with the only series to get their first fighter are Splatoon and Castlevania; Perhaps not coincidentally, they're also the only series sans Mario and Zelda to get a new stage. It's possible some characters like Isaac were considered, but were scrapped because there wasn't enough time to give them a full, original moveset and/or a stage, which is why they got snowglobed.
Bottom line, it's possible that some ATs could get a second chance now that the dev team isn't hyperfocused on bringing back as much old content as possible.

Is it weird that I actually want MORE assist trophies added?

Not everyone can be playable so maybe add some side characters that weren't getting in anyway as assists so they can still show up on the battlefield.

At the very least, it'd be cool if the DLC came with new Assist Trophies; Maybe Jack Frost for Joker, or Slime for Hero. Make them feel more like they're a part of Smash.

 

[epicmartin7]

It's something that came from the devs themselves. It's as close to a fact as you can get.

Do you have a source for this?

 

[Shroob]

Do you have a source for this?

I think they're talking about the Smash 4 Waluigi POTD.

 

[SharkLord]

I think they're talking about the Smash 4 Waluigi POTD.

That I'm iffy on, since that was six years ago, and wasn't in the context of DLC. Spirits were stated to expand the crossover beyond the playable fighters, and look where we are now. Sometimes "rules" can change.

 

[Cosmic77]

Considering how Sakurai's explanation for choosing Min Min over Spring Man had absolutely nothing to do with the AT, I'll assume the latter was always on the table.

Personally, that's enough for me to say Sakurai doesn't care about a character already being an AT. I know people probably won't be convinced until it actually happens, but it seems weird to say, "Nah, Sakurai doesn't care about characters who are already Trophies, Spirits, part of a Final Smash, or present as a background character on a stage. Assist Trophies though? Nah, that's a deal-breaker for him."