Official Newcomer/DLC Speculation Discussion

[Dinoman96]

Wasn’t DQ8 developed by Level-5 along with Square Enix? You could then consider a Level-5 rep in spirit

You can, like how you can consider Erdrick and Solo from Chunsoft, but I wasn't really counting alternate costume characters. Otherwise, I'd also have Alph and the Koopalings be filed under Nintendo up there.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I feel like the culture that shapes a character is more important than the corporation that currently owns them. It's not like we call Ryu and Ken "Capcom USA reps".

The ownership is important though since that's where the negotiations happen. In that sense, Bayonetta should be chilling with Sonic (though Joker's probably fine where he is).

 

[I.D.]

The ownership is important though since that's where the negotiations happen. In that sense, Bayonetta should be chilling with Sonic (though Joker's probably fine where he is).

At the same time developers aren't absent from negotiations. Nintendo didn't negotiate Banjo with a bunch of faceless Microsoft execs, Gregg Mayles was there for the whole thing.

 

[Speed Weed]

Anyways, Sega/Atlus have apparently confirmed their lineup for TGS, since we brought it up earlier. Do we use this opportunity to talk about another Sega rep in Smash

vyse/axel/kiryu gang let's go

 

[7NATOR]

Isn't Bayonetta fully owned by Sega though. Platinum did help develop the game, but Sega fully owns the I.P.

 

[cashregister9]

Anyways, Sega/Atlus have apparently confirmed their lineup for TGS, since we brought it up earlier. Do we use this opportunity to talk about another Sega rep in Smash again? I'm kinda running out of things to talk about...

SAKURA TIME

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

SAKURA TIME

If they added her, would she be one of those sword draw characters like Yuzuriha? (not asking if she'd play like her, I'm just referring to the trope here)

EDIT: Shulk is kind of like this, but he doesn't us a Katana and isn't supposed to be a Samurai.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

7NATOR a little late, but any updates on that leak that are worthwhile? I’ve been away the past few days

 

[Dinoman96]

Isn't Bayonetta fully owned by Sega though. Platinum did help develop the game, but Sega fully owns the I.P.

That picture on the other page was based on where the characters were originally developed at, not who owns them.

Otherwise, Diddy and K. Rool would be filed under Nintendo and Banjo & Kazooie would be under Microsoft.

 

[SharkLord]

If they added her, would she be one of those sword draw characters like Yuzuriha? (not asking if she'd play like her, I'm just referring to the trope here)

From a brief skimming of her support thread, I think she has some degree of quick-draw elements, though I don't know enough about her to say if she's primarily focused on it. I at least know she pilots a mecha, though, which is pretty cool.

 

[cashregister9]

If they added her, would she be one of those sword draw characters like Yuzuriha? (not asking if she'd play like her, I'm just referring to the trope here)

There are a couple of directions they could go with Sakura but in game Sakura primarily fights in a Mech, but Project X Zone shows that she has fought outside a Mech. Sakura could potentially have a few attacks like that it wouldn't be her primary Sword style like Yuzuriha or Vergil. (Although they easily could make her moveset that if they base it off of Project X Zone)

EDIT: Here is a little video of her Moveset from Project X Zone

EDIT 2: Here is a video of the combat from the New Sakura wars game

 

[SKX31]

The ownership is important though since that's where the negotiations happen. In that sense, Bayonetta should be chilling with Sonic (though Joker's probably fine where he is).

Considering the fact that it was Phil Spencer who helped kick-start the "B-K in Smash" train, that's very much true.

Although I can't help but find the mere thought that Sakurai and Nintendo negotiated with a browser / mobile game company (37 Games) together with their Japanese subsidiary (SNK) about Terry's inclusion a bit strange.

Anyways, Sega/Atlus have apparently confirmed their lineup for TGS, since we brought it up earlier. Do we use this opportunity to talk about another Sega rep in Smash again? I'm kinda running out of things to talk about...

...And I was considering a write up on why Football Manager should totally be the next SEGA rep, but I'll just give three reasons why a Football Manager moveset would be awesome:

1. FM would be able to employ incredibly complicated approaches and swap between them on the fly. Exactly like the FM games.
2. The character would uniquely incorporate sonic waves into the moveset - because (s)he'd shout and yell a lot. Just like on the pitch.
3. FM would also have the Sonic All Stars Racing car as a recovery move.

Completely unbiased here coming from an lifelong football / soccer fan.

Nah but seriously though, out of the SEGA characters I'm partial to Arle because there's a lot one can do with a Puyo-based moveset. Especially the kinds of effects one could get if one manages to stack Puyos "correctly" - although that could be incredibly tricky to work practically into the game since Smash's stages tend to run the gamut between pretty small and humongous. Would be perfectly okay with other SEGA characters like Kiryu and Sakura.

 

[7NATOR]

7NATOR a little late, but any updates on that leak that are worthwhile? I’ve been away the past few days

Honestly really nothing. The only thing I would say is that the leak is probably likely to be fake

I found out that when an Account on Jeuxvideo gets banned, their posts are also Modded/Deleted.

since that's the case, in order for the guy on 4Chan to get the Topic/Pic with the leak info on it, the following wold have had to happen

1.The guy saw the Topic, took a picture, Posted it onto 4chan (along with the link), and then shortly after The leaker got banned, with the topic modded

2. The guy saw the topic, waited a long time to post it, and then posted it along with the link knowing the topic was modded

3. The pic is fake, and the poster is an alt account of the leaker , or someone associated with him

I can't see option 1 or 2 happening. With the way the post is worded it seems like the poster just found the topic. It would be a mircale if the poster posted the link and then shortly thereafter the guy got banned

It's likely it was a fake all along, and because none of the Jeux mods will talk about it, It seems we are at a dead end anyway. I guess the only way to really find the conclusion is wait for FP7 or something

 

[SharkLord]

Honestly really nothing. The only thing I would say is that the leak is probably likely to be fake

I found out that when an Account on Jeuxvideo gets banned, their posts are also Modded/Deleted.

since that's the case, in order for the guy on 4Chan to get the Topic/Pic with the leak info on it, the following wold have had to happen

1.The guy saw the Topic, took a picture, Posted it onto 4chan (along with the link), and then shortly after The leaker got banned, with the topic modded

2. The guy saw the topic, waited a long time to post it, and then posted it along with the link knowing the topic was modded

3. The pic is fake, and the poster is an alt account of the leaker , or someone associated with him

I can't see option 1 or 2 happening. With the way the post is worded it seems like the poster just found the topic. It would be a mircale if the poster posted the link and then shortly thereafter the guy got banned

It's likely it was a fake all along, and because none of the Jeux mods will talk about it, It seems we are at a dead end anyway. I guess the only way to really find the conclusion is wait for FP7 or something

Well, it was worth a try.

 

[Idon]

There are a couple of directions they could go with Sakura but in game Sakura primarily fights in a Mech, but Project X Zone shows that she has fought outside a Mech. Sakura could potentially have a few attacks like that it wouldn't be her primary Sword style like Yuzuriha or Vergil.

EDIT: Here is a little video of her Moveset from Project X Zone

That video does show her using quick draw for just about every single attack though? Every attack begins and ends with the sword in the sheath, well besides the one where she slaps the opponent or gets into the military outfit.

 

[cashregister9]

That video does show her using quick draw for just about every single attack though? Every attack begins and ends with the sword in the sheath, well besides the one where she slaps the opponent or gets into the military outfit.

I'm bad at explaining things

EDIT: I added a second video that shows more gameplay

 

[Perkilator]

Anyways, Sega/Atlus have apparently confirmed their lineup for TGS, since we brought it up earlier. Do we use this opportunity to talk about another Sega rep in Smash again? I'm kinda running out of things to talk about...

Speaking for non-playable representation, I was hoping for the Magician from House of the Dead to get the Rathalos treatment.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Speaking for non-playable representation, I was hoping for the Magician from House of the Dead to get the Rathalos treatment.

I’m surprised more dual boss-ATs haven’t happened since Rathalos. The fact they said Rathalos was the first boss who was also an AT so I expected more to follow

 

[7NATOR]

Actually though I need to ask a question

Why do people not want elements from what's Considered "Bad games" in their characters. Like for example, with Paper Mario, alot of his fans only want stuff from TYD in his moveset and none of the later games, or how People didn't want stuff from Nuts and Bolts in Banjo's Moveset.

The only time i see people want something from what's considered "Bad" or "controvirsial" is people wanting Shadow to use Guns in his moveset, or DMC2 Alt for Dante.

 

[Idon]

Actually though I need to ask a question

Why do people not want elements from what's Considered "Bad games" in their characters. Like for example, with Paper Mario, alot of his fans only want stuff from TYD in his moveset and none of the later games, or how People didn't want stuff from Nuts and Bolts in Banjo's Moveset.

The only time i see people want something from what's considered "Bad" or "controvirsial" is people wanting Shadow to use Guns in his moveset, or DMC2 Alt for Dante.

Well that's quite simple.

A character crossing over into a fighting game is pure fanservice and the purpose of fanservice is to make you recall elements of the original game that made you feel happy.

Thus some fans don't appreciate it if you choose to recall elements or games they dislike. This is especially the case if the character has enough references alone without delving into elements the fanbase doesn't like (like you already said, Banjo is an example of this).

 

[SharkLord]

Actually though I need to ask a question

Why do people not want elements from what's Considered "Bad games" in their characters. Like for example, with Paper Mario, alot of his fans only want stuff from TYD in his moveset and none of the later games, or how People didn't want stuff from Nuts and Bolts in Banjo's Moveset.

The only time i see people want something from what's considered "Bad" or "controvirsial" is people wanting Shadow to use Guns in his moveset, or DMC2 Alt for Dante.

I mean, if you consider it to be bad, why would you want it there in the first place. Smash generally represents the fighter at their best, so naturally you'd want them to pull from their most iconic moves and games.

 

[SKX31]

I’m surprised more dual boss-ATs haven’t happened since Rathalos. The fact they said Rathalos was the first boss who was also an AT so I expected more to follow

Could simply be time constraints (see .) And possibly that Rathalos was the one that worked best with small alterations. Boss Rathalos and AT Rathalos aren't that different:

He uses the same attacks as the boss version, but he does not fly into the background for any attacks. Additionally, he is immune to Explosive Barrels, Deku Nuts and Pitfalls. He can be KO'd for a point, though he is very durable, has flinch resistance, and cannot be grabbed.

The other bosses might've simply been too difficult to alter given how little time they had. Galleem, Dharkon, Marx and Dracula have full screen attacks for example - which Sakurai and co. would have to disable or reduce their power significantly.

Also:

AT&T no longer looking to sell its Warner Bros. Gaming unit according to a report from Bloomberg.

Consider the unit too valuable to sell. https://t.co/88wKlrDhju pic.twitter.com/R3jyZtzfSi

— Daniel Ahmad (@ZhugeEX) September 1, 2020

From the Bloomberg article:

"Warner Bros. Interactive Entertainment, the gaming unit that is home to titles like Harry Potter: Wizards Unite and Mortal Kombat 11, had attracted interest from several major companies and could have reaped $4 billion, as reported by CNBC in June. But AT&T balked given the business’s growth potential, said the people, asking not to be identified because the information is private. "

Guess Scorpion and Maxwell won't move into Microsoft's house after all. While AT&T have a massive debt burden - ca. $165 Billion - after acquiring Time-Warner (which is why this was considered) AT&T wasn't getting anywhere with it seemingly. Also "the business's growth potential" strikes me as important because the games doing pretty well overall (presumably well enough to help reduce said debt).

 

[7NATOR]

Well that's quite simple.

A character crossing over into a fighting game is pure fanservice and the purpose of fanservice is to make you recall elements of the original game that made you feel happy.

Thus some fans don't appreciate it if you choose to recall elements or games they dislike. This is especially the case if the character has enough references alone without delving into elements the fanbase doesn't like (like you already said, Banjo is an example of this).

I mean, if you consider it to be bad, why would you want it there in the first place. Smash generally represents the fighter at their best, so naturally you'd want them to pull from their most iconic moves and games.

These are true. Though I will say that while some games may be bad overall, or considered as such, some people might like some of the elements of that game. DMC2 is Panned as a game, but the Design is actually one of the deemed, good things about it. That's all I say, but i guess that is understandable people don't want to remember games like Nuts and bolts, or be reminded of it

 

[ZelDan]

Eh, even "bad" games can still have good aspects. Sonic 06 is considered a huge mess by, well, practically everyone, but many think it has good music, so why not have the music atleast?

As long as the content from the more positively received titles outweighs the content from not as well received titles, I don't really see the issue.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Could simply be time constraints (see .) And possibly that Rathalos was the one that worked best with small alterations. Boss Rathalos and AT Rathalos aren't that different:



The other bosses might've simply been too difficult to alter given how little time they had. Galleem, Dharkon, Marx and Dracula have full screen attacks for example.

Also:

AT&T no longer looking to sell its Warner Bros. Gaming unit according to a report from Bloomberg.

Consider the unit too valuable to sell. https://t.co/88wKlrDhju pic.twitter.com/R3jyZtzfSi

— Daniel Ahmad (@ZhugeEX) September 1, 2020

From the Bloomberg article:



Guess Scorpion and Maxwell won't move into Microsoft's house after all. While AT&T have a massive debt burden - ca. $165 Billion - after acquiring Time-Warner (which is why this was considered) AT&T wasn't getting anywhere with it seemingly. Also "the business's growth potential" strikes me as important because the games doing pretty well overall (presumably well enough to help reduce said debt).

Black Knight could have been a boss in addition to AT too, and MAYBE Dr. Wily as well

I was also hoping so hard for Sephiroth to get the Rathalos treatment for the Nov 1 2018 direct but lo and behold, FF7 didn’t even get a new AT

 

[TenghsienYang]

Actually though I need to ask a question

Why do people not want elements from what's Considered "Bad games" in their characters. Like for example, with Paper Mario, alot of his fans only want stuff from TYD in his moveset and none of the later games, or how People didn't want stuff from Nuts and Bolts in Banjo's Moveset.

The only time i see people want something from what's considered "Bad" or "controvirsial" is people wanting Shadow to use Guns in his moveset, or DMC2 Alt for Dante.

I think it's less to do with including movesets from newer PM games, but rather the concern that older PM games aren't going to represented at all. This isn't unprecedented for a character: Wario mostly has an original moveset with only one or two references to Wario Land, with the rest of his motif being based off WarioWare.

The last three PM games hardly made references to the original three games, and the few character callbacks were NoA localization exclusive (eg Goombella and Parakarry being alluded to in Sticker Star). It's like those older games never existed.

However I'm not terribly worried if PM does become a character; Sakurai does seem to more than acknowledge the older PM games. We have the PM stage that's half Sticker Star and Half TTYD, a few TTYD/SPM spirits, Piranha Plant's side special being a direct reference to the Putrid Piranha enemy in PM/TTYD, and the other PM variations being mentioned by Viridi (both in English and Japanese).

If his presentations are anything to go by, he definitely respects the history of each character and their franchises. IIRC he specifically chose more iconic designs for Pac-Man, Banjo, Simon, Ryu, Ken, etc.

 

[cashregister9]

Eh, even "bad" games can still have good aspects. Sonic 06 is considered a huge mess by, well, practically everyone, but many think it has good music, so why not have the music atleast?

As long as the content from the more positively received titles outweighs the content from not as well received titles, I don't really see the issue.

More examples:

Nuts and Bolts is actually a good game I just don't know why it was a Banjo game, Devil May Cry 2 has some okay atmosphere, I will defend Shadow the Hedgehog as a game that is so bad it's good, Super Paper Mario, Color Splash and Origami King are all good games just not traditional RPG's.

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Devil May Cry 2 might have been bland as heck but I will die on the hill that I’d rather have content from that game than from DmC (2013) which actively tried to insult the fanbase

DMC didn’t even need a “reboot” anyway, and I’m glad they went back on track with V

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

There are a couple of directions they could go with Sakura but in game Sakura primarily fights in a Mech, but Project X Zone shows that she has fought outside a Mech. Sakura could potentially have a few attacks like that it wouldn't be her primary Sword style like Yuzuriha or Vergil. (Although they easily could make her moveset that if they base it off of Project X Zone)

EDIT: Here is a little video of her Moveset from Project X Zone

EDIT 2: Here is a video of the combat from the New Sakura wars game

Judging by the footage, it seems like she is very much a sword-draw style character. but she'll probably be in her mech the entire time so it won't likely influence her moveset at all.

Actually though I need to ask a question

Why do people not want elements from what's Considered "Bad games" in their characters. Like for example, with Paper Mario, alot of his fans only want stuff from TYD in his moveset and none of the later games, or how People didn't want stuff from Nuts and Bolts in Banjo's Moveset.

The only time i see people want something from what's considered "Bad" or "controvirsial" is people wanting Shadow to use Guns in his moveset, or DMC2 Alt for Dante.

It's probably because of how angry they are at whatever game in question. People hate the newer Paper Mario games, but find Shadow the Hedgehog to be absolutely hilarious. Personally, I think it should be on a case by case basis:

• Paper Mario's moveset should mostly pull from Paper Mario and Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door because that's the gameplay that its fans have come to love. However, the other games shouldn't be completely shunned, as Super Paper Mario, and the Paper Mario: Sticker Star trilogy do have interesting ideas. For example, Carrie easily fixes Mario's running animation problem, Tippi, Tiptron, Kirsty, Huey, and Olivia would all be able to contribute to a Tattle easter egg similar to Palutena's Guidance, and Thing Cards and Stickers would make for the most satisfying Final Smash.
• Banjo & Kazooie shouldn't have anything from Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts because it doesn't really have anything to do with why people love the series, and honestly, you could make a case for it being a spin-off. The only thing from that game that should really be added is any cool music it has.
• Shadow shouldn't have guns because Shadow the Hedgehog was just a phase, and they don't really do anything like that now. Besides, he has a ton of other, way cooler powers he could use.

 

[cashregister9]

i'm pretty sure one of Banjo's taunts is from Nuts & Bolts. I could be wrong though.

 

[Calamitas]

Y'all just talking about the types of games that have direct sequels and the like in response to 7NATORs question. And meanwhile I just don't want content from a bad entry in a series because I feel like there are other games that deserve it more and could bring more interesting things to the table.

And I'm not just talking about Xenoblade here, this also about how I'd rather have a Gen 5, 3 or 2 Pokémon than a Gen 8 one.

 

[PeridotGX]

Actually though I need to ask a question

Why do people not want elements from what's Considered "Bad games" in their characters. Like for example, with Paper Mario, alot of his fans only want stuff from TYD in his moveset and none of the later games, or how People didn't want stuff from Nuts and Bolts in Banjo's Moveset.

The only time i see people want something from what's considered "Bad" or "controvirsial" is people wanting Shadow to use Guns in his moveset, or DMC2 Alt for Dante.

Sakyot, blease giv donte a DMC2 skin. DMC2 is good game, and Dante is best in gaem.

Could simply be time constraints (see .) And possibly that Rathalos was the one that worked best with small alterations. Boss Rathalos and AT Rathalos aren't that different:



The other bosses might've simply been too difficult to alter given how little time they had. Galleem, Dharkon, Marx and Dracula have full screen attacks for example - which Sakurai and co. would have to disable or reduce their power significantly.

Also:

AT&T no longer looking to sell its Warner Bros. Gaming unit according to a report from Bloomberg.

Consider the unit too valuable to sell. https://t.co/88wKlrDhju pic.twitter.com/R3jyZtzfSi

— Daniel Ahmad (@ZhugeEX) September 1, 2020

From the Bloomberg article:



Guess Scorpion and Maxwell won't move into Microsoft's house after all. While AT&T have a massive debt burden - ca. $165 Billion - after acquiring Time-Warner (which is why this was considered) AT&T wasn't getting anywhere with it seemingly. Also "the business's growth potential" strikes me as important because the games doing pretty well overall (presumably well enough to help reduce said debt).

ATnT net worth

Maxwell Scribblenaut: $265,999,999,999

Everything else: 1 dollar

 

[N3ON]

On the topic of "bad games" getting content, some people are displeased with Samus' design in the past two games due to Other M. I'm mostly displeased because I just think, while the Other M design isn't bad, the Samus Returns one is just a whole lot better, so I wish timing could've been such to allow it to become her new look in Ultimate.

But it stands as proof that Sakurai is not privy to everything going on within Nintendo's sphere super early, as some people like to posit when arguing for a character that would be questionable, timing-wise.

Shadow the Hedgehog was just a phase

ITS NOT JUST A PHASE, MOM

NOW TAKE ME TO HOT TOPIC

I'm pretty sure one of Banjo's taunts from Nuts & Bolts. I could be wrong though.

It is. The up taunt.

Which is the acceptable amount of N&B influence on the moveset.

Though the stage has a more N&B-esque colour scheme, which is unfortunate. I wish it were more saturated, like the original games. That's a fairly minor gripe, though.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I'm pretty sure one of Banjo's taunts from Nuts & Bolts. I could be wrong though.

Oh yeah! I think it's his stretch. I also think this is a completely fine way to reference the game as well.

And I'm not just talking about Xenoblade here, this also about how I'd rather have a Gen 5, 3 or 2 Pokémon than a Gen 8 one.

Xenoblade Chronicles doesn't have a bad entry tho...

 

[Nesysli]

I'm still stoked Banjo is in Smash. I know Nintendo and Microsoft are businesses and there was a lot of money made, but I'm really grateful that Sakurai, Phil Spencer and all of the rest involved for finally making this dream possible.

 

[Calamitas]

By the way, guess what tomorrow is - that's right, the 365th day since the last general Nintendo Direct.

Xenoblade Chronicles doesn't have a bad entry tho...

That's a matter of perspective. Just ask Cutie Gwen .

 

[N3ON]

I'm still stoked Banjo is in Smash. I know Nintendo and Microsoft are businesses and there was a lot of money made, but I'm really grateful that Sakurai, Phil Spencer and all of the rest involved for finally making this dream possible.

I don't think I'll ever not be shocked that it actually happened.

Getting a competitor's character in your exclusive crossover, and the implications of how many people had to be on board, and how many negotiations had to clear successfully... it's surreal to think that it actually all come to fruition.

If Microsoft were a person I'd be convinced that for the last few years they've been on drugs, lol. But, you know, the good ones.

 

[Perkilator]

By the way, guess what tomorrow is - that's right, the 365th day since the last general Nintendo Direct.

Actually, that's two days from now, going by Leap Year rules.

 

[Cosmic77]

Even though a really good game might make me more inclined to support a character, I also don't think it's fair to dismiss content just because a game was deemed as bad. In terms of Smash, how well or poorly a game is recieved by fans doesn't necessarily mean the characters or moves from said game wouldn't work wonderfully in Smash.

In Paper Mario's case, the more recent games have a lot of great material that could be used in his moveset. I'm not gonna reject 1000-fold Arms being Paper Mario's grab just so we can get Thoreau (Pixie from SPM shaped like a hand) instead. Even if people like SPM more, I feel like the former would be a much better fit for Paper Mario. Likewise, there's a lot of people who dislike XY and Fates. Was it a mistake to include Greninja and Corrin, or do you think there's a lot more to judge these characters on aside from the average score people on the internet would give their games?

All of this is completely subjective anyway. You'll never get a straight, unanimous answer as to what games are "bad".

 

[SharkLord]

It is. The up taunt.

Which is the acceptable amount of N&B influence on the moveset.

Though the stage has a more N&B-esque colour scheme, which is unfortunate. I wish it were more saturated, like the original games. That's a fairly minor gripe, though.

To be fair, it's not just Spiral Mountain. Ultimate in general has a more subdued color palette.