*NEW* Falco Match-Up Thread ~ Week #13: Olimar

[Bloodcross]

You got 13th? 17th? Something like that but either way it was a placing I expected you to achieve, which is a good placing anyway dude =/

I would think FL would learn how to punish ZSS tricks by now. Seibrik and CO18 especially - and I guess all of the Snake players like Redhalberd, HRNUT, Afrothundah, etc...

 

[Snakeee]

You got 13th? 17th? Something like that but either way it was a placing I expected you to achieve, which is a good placing anyway dude =/

I would think FL would learn how to punish ZSS tricks by now. Seibrik and CO18 especially - and I guess all of the Snake players like Redhalberd, HRNUT, Afrothundah, etc...

I had a talk with Seibrik at Pound 4 about it. He simply would not even believe me that those moves were highly punishable regardless of how they were used (as a spacing tool). I eventually gave in and "let the dog have his bone" and stopped arguing about it. He actually seemed to get a bit angry over it when I disagreed. Seibrik is a really nice guy, but seems a bit elitist when it comes to smash like many others :\

 

[OverLade]

I've played Nick Riddle only once, in 2 money matches.

I beat him 3-1 with Snake, he beat my MK 3-1.

Snake clearly beats ZSS hard and punishes her shiz heavily. The Matchup with MK (especially against Nick) is really difficult if you don't know it, and I'd have to play him more often before I could go against what Seibrik says. Trust me when I say Nick plays a really tight game doesn't seem as easily punishable as people say (though it's not like I know the matchup or anything )

 

[Snakeee]

I've played Nick Riddle only once, in 2 money matches.

I beat him 3-1 with Snake, he beat my MK 3-1.

Snake clearly beats ZSS hard and punishes her shiz heavily. The Matchup with MK (especially against Nick) is really difficult if you don't know it, and I'd have to play him more often before I could go against what Seibrik says. Trust me when I say Nick plays a really tight game doesn't seem as easily punishable as people say (though it's not like I know the matchup or anything )

I would have agreed a few months ago, but wiith the way I fight Snake now that's no longer the case .

And those moves are punishable purely on reaction. Even if you don't expect them at all they should be power-shielded like 90% of the time once you know the match up well enough and assuming you have decent reflexes.

 

[CO18]

I had a talk with Seibrik at Pound 4 about it. He simply would not even believe me that those moves were highly punishable regardless of how they were used (as a spacing tool). I eventually gave in and "let the dog have his bone" and stopped arguing about it. He actually seemed to get a bit angry over it when I disagreed. Seibrik is a really nice guy, but seems a bit elitist when it comes to smash like many others :\

Dawg you cant just say those moves are highly punishable just beacuse you not may be using them as well as you could, he beat you pretty **** solidly in your mm from what I heard then instantly lost to nick riddle the weekend after ...

Ive lost my last 3 sets to nick, His **** works its homo.

 

[Snakeee]

Dawg you cant just say those moves are highly punishable just beacuse you not may be using them as well as you could, he beat you pretty **** solidly in your mm from what I heard then instantly lost to nick riddle the weekend after ...

Ive lost my last 3 sets to nick, His **** works its homo.

I'm up in MMs against Seibrik overall actually iirc. People love to spread things eh? I didn't mention my prior MMs that I've won against him before.

That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard about those moves. They are punishable on sheer REACTION. The only time they are useful are in very specific situations, usually if my opponent is going to be doing something uber laggy. I'm sorry but if you guys cannot figure out how to punish that...I'm at a loss for words.

 

[CO18]

I'm up in MMs against Seibrik overall actually iirc. People love to spread things eh? I didn't mention my prior MMs that I've won against him before.

That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard about those moves. They are punishable on sheer REACTION. The only time they are useful are in very specific situations, usually if my opponent is going to be doing something uber laggy. I'm sorry but if you guys cannot figure out how to punish that...I'm at a loss for words.

Or... hes just very good at using them.. ?

lol @ you simply trying to act like we're dumb for losing to it. Thats horrible I used to beat him consistently he was still using the SAME moves her moves havent changed, hes just overall a much smarter/better player now and has way better walls for covering your options.

And did you beat sbrk's mk at pound? If so ok, but bringing up older mms pre-pound is sort of moot

 

[Snakeee]

Or... hes just very good at using them.. ?

lol @ you simply trying to act like we're dumb for losing to it. Thats horrible I used to beat him consistently he was still using the SAME moves her moves havent changed, hes just overall a much smarter/better player now and has way better walls for covering your options.

And did you beat sbrk's mk at pound? If so ok, but bringing up older mms pre-pound is sort of moot

A slow, unsafe move is useless for spacing regardless of whatever he does with it. I've seen him use them, there is nothing he does that changes this at all. I'm not saying you're stupid, but it's strange that you guys haven't picked up on this. I am a little annoyed that you and Seibrik won't even give what I say any thought, but you're only hurting yourselves in that case because he will keep winning by playing like that when it is easily exploitable.

 

[CO18]

A slow, unsafe move is useless for spacing. I've seen him use them, there is nothing he does that changes this at all. I'm not saying you're stupid, but it's strange that you guys haven't picked up on this. I am a little annoyed that you and Seibrik won't even give what I say any thought, but you're only hurting yourselves because he will keep winning with that simple strategy.

Ok so what am I doing wrong? Lmao I powershield it and.... Its not like I even get hit by side b. I get hit by dsmash sometimes since he uses it well and safely covers his options out of it.

Its not just a simple strategy, hes been using these moves for years..lmao and used to be bad. Just now hes a much smarter player, you act as if hes going to randomly throw out the side b or something when he can get punished.

Anyway all Im saying is if you had something else to back up your claims then maybe i would see you as having an argument. Saying "these moves" shouldnt work doenst really say anything.

Realistically, Mk should be able to react to all of DDDs moves.. What can I do ftilt? Ok if I ftilt he should instantly nado, If I inhale he can instantly grounded up+b.
It doesnt work like that. Nicks just a really good player

If you come here and **** nick with mk then ill believe u.. and seibrik still beats nick most of the time its just def not easy

 

[Snakeee]

Ok so what am I doing wrong? Lmao I powershield it and.... Its not like I even get hit by side b. I get hit by dsmash sometimes since he uses it well and safely covers his options out of it.

Its not just a simple strategy, hes been using these moves for years..lmao and used to be bad. Just now hes a much smarter player, you act as if hes going to randomly throw out the side b or something when he can get punished.

Anyway all Im saying is if you had something else to back up your claims then maybe i would see you as having an argument. Saying "these moves" shouldnt work doenst really say anything.

Realistically, Mk should be able to react to all of DDDs moves.. What can I do ftilt? Ok if I ftilt he should instantly nado, If I inhale he can instantly grounded up+b.
It doesnt work like that. Nicks just a really good player

If you come here and **** nick with mk then ill believe u.. and seibrik still beats nick most of the time its just def not easy

Yes, MK SHOULD be able to. DDD should almost never win that match up when the MK knows it well.

The argument is simply that no matter the circumstances, unless you are in some crazy long lag (or if you buffered something the instant before he did the attack), you should be able to consistently powershield it and punish. Hmm, with DDD it is possible that you can't punish it as well, but I'm not sure. More likely I think you can still dash grab side B, and d-smash would be even easier. I don't play that match up very often anymore. Most characters however, can punish it very easily. MK can do several things after powershielding these two moves including grab, Up B, and D-SMASH! X_X

We are invading the Falco thread though. Sorry Falco players. Talk about this somewhere on the ZSS boards if you want. I am trying to get to MLG Orlando, but it will rely on me getting my check before the passes sell out -_-

I suppose I'd MM Riddle with my MK, but it won't prove anything either way. The smash community places WAYYYY too much emphasize on single matches or tourneys which I find to be ridiculous. Just because I haven't been running as well lately, and Riddle has I've been getting a lot of negative comments lately, and I think things like that are pretty absurd. I try and look at the long run, not small trends. Also, there are many random outside factors that can affect one's placement in any given tournament.

 

[OverLade]

LOL Snakeee, this game isn't about one player waiting for other playing to do something and react to it. This game is about both players expecting something to happen.

You're theorycrafting hardcore instead of taking mixup game into account...

 

[Snakeee]

LOL Snakeee, this game isn't about one player waiting for other playing to do something and react to it. This game is about both players expecting something to happen.

You're theorycrafting hardcore instead of taking mixup game into account...

You got me completely wrong. I am ALL about metagaming and leveling...I even wrote a blog about it as a matter of fact. That is the main area where smash and poker come together, and my skill in one gives me the mindset for skill in the other.

I'm not talking about waiting for these moves. The fact of the matter is you can just powershield it when it comes out even if you had NO IDEA it was coming! I don't want to argue about this any more this is pretty ridiculous.

All of you are being quite stubborn about this just because of region bias and the fact that he's been able to take a set or two off of you, and you simply refuse to acknowledge the fact that using those moves is almost always extremely exploitable.

 

[M@v]

A brief pause between the snakeeee vs Florida MU discussion. I'll do a writeup on falco vs fox tomorrow or thursday. Im very experienced in both sides of the matchup. Anyways, carry on.

 

[Snakeee]

A brief pause between the snakeeee vs Florida MU discussion. I'll do a writeup on falco vs fox tomorrow or thursday. Im very experienced in both sides of the matchup. Anyways, carry on.

You don't mind? o_O

 

[M@v]

You don't mind? o_O

Not really LOL. Maybe I'm just too tired to care. And with that, I'm going to bed...lol.

 

[Typ_Ex]

Omg how many times am I going to hear about how bad I was at Hobo? I was on no sleep for about 48 hours at the time, and couldn't think at all really. Btw Lee Martin had gotten the same placing at that same Hobo, how come no one noticed or ragged on him about it? >_>

If it makes you feel any better i acknowledge lee to be a very good player, but i dont think much of him cause he wont play me as lucario even in friendlies.

And you tried to plank bassem, if you didnt attempt to plank him i would have thought, "oh, well bassem knows that MU very well". but you tried.

 

[FU^InSmash]

I think Falco vs Ice Climbers match should be more toward Ice Climbers. Falco doesnt have a lot of moves that seperate them like you need to to beat ice climbers. Also you can not chain grab them because at the second of a grab the other ice climber can over smash you or anything. also Falco is very easy to chainthrow with as ice climbers. also all falcos smashes gives much time for them to grab falco. also ice climbers can do chain throw to spike then just ledge gaurd for an easy kill. Idk what Falco does to fend off ice climbers to make it such a close match up.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

CO18/Seibrik/Redhalberd, what is the average gamer's reaction time? Convert it to frames, please. My sources tell me it's 12-16 frames.

 

[Snakeee]

If it makes you feel any better i acknowledge lee to be a very good player, but i dont think much of him cause he wont play me as lucario even in friendlies.

And you tried to plank bassem, if you didnt attempt to plank him i would have thought, "oh, well bassem knows that MU very well". but you tried.

Well, it's to be expected on Norfair

 

[OverLade]

CO18/Seibrik/Redhalberd, what is the average gamer's reaction time? Convert it to frames, please. My sources tell me it's 12-16 frames.

That can't be quantified that simply for data reasons. I can tell differences in players reaction speed when I play them, but the difference of 2 frames probably feels huge to me, and even then it would just be an average, as matchup experience and preconceptions will affect how a player reacts. A player can react quickly but still react incorrectly. Players with faster reactions tend to be better, but trying to find an "average" for data reasons will just lead to bias, because saying the average gamer "should" be able to do this, means nothing in the heat of an actual match when the situation comes up.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Point is that high level gamers develop a good reaction time. If we assume someone in the range of the above, and go to ZSS frame data (20 frames dsmash, 22/31 sideb, 16 grab) we see that someone who knows where the shield button is, can go a long way against zero suit.

 

[Denzi]

Point is that high level gamers develop a good reaction time. If we assume someone in the range of the above, and go to ZSS frame data (20 frames dsmash, 22/31 sideb, 16 grab) we see that someone who knows where the shield button is, can go a long way against zero suit.

And Powershielding totally kills her.

 

[Snakeee]

Point is that high level gamers develop a good reaction time. If we assume someone in the range of the above, and go to ZSS frame data (20 frames dsmash, 22/31 sideb, 16 grab) we see that someone who knows where the shield button is, can go a long way against zero suit.

And Powershielding totally kills her.

Exactly. THANK YOU.

It doesn't make her useless though. I have been working on ways to play her that work well enough to keep her viable ^.^

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

lol...don't argue with this man about his character...we'll just have to see if riddle can prove him wrong somehow. SO nick has to beat good mks other than seibrik and redhalberd is all

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

No he has to beat someone who played snakeee a LOT... Shadow.

 

[Snakeee]

No he has to beat someone who played snakeee a LOT... Shadow.

I will quite literally take any side bet on my brother against Riddle up to $1K

 

[Typ_Ex]

i may look into mm'ing riddle if i go to mlg orlando. we have a pretty good zss here and would like to try my luck in this matchup. plus id like to figure out why falco zss is so bad for zss. nobody has updated their MU charts (especially zss), and i dont use lasers, so throw that reason out.

 

[OverLade]

Nick Riddle vs Shadow? Get hype...

 

[demonictoonlink]

Nick would win. If I was there, I'd place a bet.

 

[BleachigoZX]

Yeah, Nick would definitely win.

See what I did there Snakeee!

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

It's funny because they're both called Nick. hurrrr

 

[BleachigoZX]

Shadow would win, no doubt.

 

[Shadow 111]

Nick would win. If I was there, I'd place a bet.

oh my!
i thought this was Hyro for a sec, because of the avatar, but then i realized it was a random/ demonic toonlink, so i don't have to be offended.

i don't think there's much need for debate over this. i'm sure it'd be fun and close and all. i'd have to try my best because of all this drama between him and my brother, though XD.
anyways, is nick riddle going to MLG Orlando? hopefully we get to play there. though i honestly don't like mms with top players much, so hopefully it will happen in tournament!
who knows, with the RANDOM seeding for mlg orlando, it might even happen first round, lolol.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Seriously, Shadow is overrated at the ZSS matchup. Snakeee's willing to take any bets? Easy money for you guys, FL. lol at brotherly bias.

 

[Shadow 111]

Seriously, Shadow is overrated at the ZSS matchup. Snakeee's willing to take any bets? Easy money for you guys, FL. lol at brotherly bias.

oh you!

****, i didn't even realize this was a FALCO matchup thread. DA ****?!?! rofl
well, sorry, i guess, and HI FALCOS!

 

[Bloodcross]

Hi

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Nick is going to MLG orlando iirc

 

[gunterrsmash01]

I guess I will make updates for whobo here on friday (me and typex going)

 

[CO18]

wow bloodcross's pic just killed me and yes of course nick is going to mlg

 

[gunterrsmash01]

I guess I will make updates for whobo here on friday (me and typex going)

Thought this was the bakery thread, ill put the updates there