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New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

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Rᴏb

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I'm pretty indifferent on Lyn, but this is only because I'm some what ignorant to her character. From what I've gathered, her playstyle could be reason enough for me to eventually be fine with her inclusion.

Just because Metaknight is fast and also has a sword, doesn't mean they would be filling the same niche. Her gender isn't even relevant in an argument, lol
 
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Just because Metaknight is fast and also has a sword, doesn't mean they would be filling the same niche. Her gender isn't even relevant in an argument, lol
Front post said:
Pros
-One of the most popular FE lords
-Unique sword style differentiates her from other FE lords
-Female - diversity FTW
-Will almost definitely not be in Wii/3DS
 
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Banjodorf

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Regardless of whether the leak is true or not, she's still likely to get in as she's in the top 3. I'm not really sure where this is going.
 

HayabusaTaichou

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I don't care much about the Fire Emblem games though I think the world is pretty interesting from what little I've seen of it. I don't really do strategy outside of regular RPGs and even then I play them in the most straightforward way possible.

Considering this, I think Lyn is a really cool idea just from the standpoint of having a character to play. Her fighting style would be really different from the other sword users (including Metaknight who I don't really feel is all that comparable in the first place) with her iaijutsu style being super cool already but also with having the sword sheathed most of the time giving reason for her to use some other non sword based moves. This as pretty much everyone putting thought into it has said would include the use of a bow which I find very interesting even if it's essentially the same sort of move as Link's. aside from these obvious reasons she'd also be more nimble which would even greater differ her from the others.

Thinking all this I can't understand people really "hating" her other than being hipster about it or just picking her at random to say how much better the character they really like is and that they should have the spot instead.
 
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Alfonzo Bagpipez

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Thinking all this I can't understand people really "hating" her other than being hipster about it or just picking her at random to say how much better the character they really like is and that they should have the spot instead.
Yeah, I don't understand a whole lot of the strikes against Lyn either.

- Overrepresenting FE:
I've seen enough voters who use this as a strike to know that it's kinda meh.
A lot of the time, when people use overrepping a series as a strike against characters, they usually end up supporting characters that belong to an overrepped series as well. Upvoting Pichu because they like Pichu, but downvoting Krystal "because there are too many Star Fox reps" or Upvoting Skull Kid because he's awesome, but downvoting Lyn "because there are too many FE reps" (these are all characters I support, so no bias there).

When it all comes down to it, it's quite apparent that whether or not a series is overrepped is subjective. Some think 3 Mother reps are okay, but 3 Metroid reps are too many. I've seen people argue that 2 F-Zero reps are too many, but 7 Pokes are fine.

You could call those people stupid, but if people can truthfully disagree on something, then it's subjective and not as strong of an argument as people make it out to be. The amount of hypocrisy and nitpicking is ridiculous.

You could use this as part of your vote, because it is still your opinion, but please don't use it thinking the argument is actually factual, because I'll have trouble taking you seriously.


- Too many swords:
I've seen this strike argued in a few ways.

Some people argue that swords and their disjointed hitboxes give an innate advantage to the user. While it's true that disjoints are advantageous in certain situations, a lot of characters other than sword users have them (PM Mewtwo's uptilt is a ****ing disgusting example). In fact, I'd say every character has some form of a disjointed hitbox. On top of that, only 2 sword users have ever dominated the competitive side of Smash. While Marth's spacing with his sword is a huge part of his game, I'd say his grab game is equally valuable. In Melee, he has chain grabs on 70% of the cast, with his most devastating chain grab on both of the Spacies. Take away his phenomenal grab game, and Marth would drop at least 5 spots on the tierlist (I'm being generous here). Metaknight does indeed have a sword and does indeed have disjointed hitboxes. But those are only bulletpoints on the HUGE laundry list that makes Metaknight god tier in Brawl. Take away his sword, but retain his current moveset, and Metaknight is still god tier.

Others just think that the number of swords is just too high. There are currently 7 sword users in PM. There are also 18 (A generous count) characters that use hand to hand combat, 3 projectile-heavy characters (excluding the Links, because swords, right?), 7 magic/elemental fighters, 2 hammer users (5 if you're cheeky), and 4 characters I can't really classify. Out of 41 characters, 7 isn't all that bad. By the same coin, I could argue that there are too many fist fighters or too many magic users. However, I'd be immediately dismissed because "Those are stupid arguments". Much logic.

Then there are those who simply think swords are boring to watch. I can't really argue that, because those are subjective feelings, not valid arguments.

And anyone who says that all the sword users play similarly clearly has no idea what they're talking about.

I'm in a bitter, ranty mood today.
 
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Steelia

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It MIGHT be fake, but a lot about it is still plausible to people. Except Knuckles. He's the most out of place, especially since the PMBR said they weren't gonna do third parties.
Maybe "KNUCKLES" is a just codename for another character? Let's try rearranging the letters...


KNUCKLES


UNCKLHES


HSNUCILPK


SKPICHULN


I did it!
I CRACKED THE CODE
 

Alfonzo Bagpipez

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Damn, I forgot Kirby's most useful attack.

Thank you edit button.
 
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The_NZA

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Golden Sun was my first JRPG for myself and a lot of other people growing up with a GBA. It's a solid game by itself and it holds a lot of sentimental value. Djinn customization is surprisingly fun too. Lost Age expands on that and the two games make a great experience.
How young are you guys? You missed out on Playstation 1?
 

Spire

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Keep in mind a lot of people on these boards are around 14-16 years old (if not younger). That's 1998-2000 for years of birth. Crazy. Born into an era with PS1, but probably too young to know it.
 

Banjodorf

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While my first RPG was FF on the NES, I do know alot if people who used Golden Sun as a defining game of their childhood.

And after playing it myself years later and being pleasantly surprised, I can see where they're coming from.
 

The_NZA

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I thought of it as a neat handheld rpg that was a slightly worse and less interesting wild arms.
 

Banjodorf

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^

And this is why people have opinions.
 

Rasgar

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I know some people who "missed" the PS1 not because they were too young, but that they didn't want a Sony console. My wife pretty much grew up with nothing but Nintendo consoles and is only now catching up on PS1 classic RPGs like the FFs.
 

Thane of Blue Flames

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I just almost posted a near yelling incomprehensible rant that stopped making sense to me halfway though. I have since calmed down.

The only thing I want to say that I do not count FE as having three reps when one of those reps is Roy.

But whatever. Subjectivity, people being ****ing hipsters, and everyone and their mom whining about swords when there's so many more characters who fistfight and share the same damn "forward kick" Ftilt, but that's okay. Whatever. I don't give a flying **** anymore. This thread is bull****, going in circles and doing nothing but incensing people of one type or another. I'm done and I will ignore this thread from now on, and wait for the official clone engine announcements because **** this ****.

I'm out.
 

Ginge

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I grew up with Nintendo. We got a SNES when I was 4. My first non-Nintendo console was PS2 when I was 12. But my first RPG would be Pokémon Red and Blue. I can't even tell you what would be my first traditional RPG. My only exposure to PS1 games came well after the era was done with and depended on what I could find at Game Stop or could get as a download from PSN. Or if they had a remake for GBA/DS/3DS/PSP/PSVita (Riviera, some of the FF, etc).

I got some of the greats (FFT, Legend of Dragoon) some overrated (Crash Bash, FF7), but I in no way had a representative set of what PS1 had to offer. And as a kid growing up in the 90s (born in 1990), I didn't have as much say in the games I got, so I didn't have exposure to series like Zelda until I had my own money from working. My first Zelda game was the 3DS remake of Ocarina of Time, second being Skyward Sword.

For the longest time, I couldn't convince my mom that having two home consoles from the same era was needed. The first time I managed to get it was when I got Gamecube at my dad's house and PS2 at my mom's. I'm a firm believer in two systems per generation now: Nintendo + 1 (and I've been sticking with Sony). I missed out entirely on having Sega consoles due to this.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That being said, the exposure that I was given is why I wholeheartedly support characters like Dixie Kong (DKC was my favorite series for years), Mario fighters, Kirby characters, Pokémon, etc. But often overlook series like Metroid and Zelda because I never really got into them.

Fire Emblem is probably one of my top 3 series of all time, and I always preferred Lyn's build to Hector and Eliwood from her game (Speed / Crits over Attack / Defense). And even without her being *THE* main character, she was *A* main character for a third of the game or so, and was then main-3 for the rest of the game. I mean, if there was enough support for a Fire Emblem character other than Lyn (Sothe with his daggers, Hector with his axe, Ephraim with his lance, or Micaiah with her magic moveset), I'd be all for their inclusion over Lyn's. But I am tired of people saying "We don't need MORE sword users" or "We already have enough Fire Emblem characters" when Lyn would probably be the most unique sword user in the lot if done correctly.

When considering just how many Fire Emblem games we're able to draw from, representation of "3 characters" is not overrepresentation. There are 11 games in the series (13 depending on if you count remakes) spanning back to NES. With each game having DOZENS of characters to choose from, or typically around 3 "Main characters" and 3 "Main badguys" for each game. With the only times the main characters were reused between games would be in FE1 and FE3, or FE9 and FE10 which were sequels. So we're looking at hundreds of different choices for character inclusion, dozens if you only look at the main group of heroes and villains for each game. WHICH is still more to draw from than series like Starfox or Zelda and is only really beaten out by Pokémon.

Would people be as opposed to another Fire Emblem rep if it was a villain who didn't use swords? (Don't think any are eligible that fit the inclusion criteria). Or had a different weapon choice from the series (Axe / Throwing axe, Lance / Spear, Bow, Anima magic, Light magic, Dark magic) or had a potential mount (Pegasus riders, Wyvern/Dragon riders, Horsemen)? Or are you just against the series itself?
 

UltimateWario

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The only thing I want to say that I do not count FE as having three reps when one of those reps is Roy.
I...don't see the logic in this. At all. You could say that Starfox only has one rep, by the same token.

There's no reason to get upset simply because people don't like Lyn. It is an opinion, believe it or not. I've played her game, and I don't really see the appeal of her character, either. I don't hate her by any stretch, and I'm pretty sure Golden doesn't either. He's a pretty cool guy, he's not the kind of person to outright hate someone.

If we're pulling characters from FE7, I'd much rather have Hector, as he's a huge badass, plus dat axe.
 
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Alfonzo Bagpipez

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I...don't see the logic in this. At all.

You could say that Starfox only has one rep, by the same token.
He means that Roy shouldn't be addressed as a Clone Engine character.
A lot of people (myself included) thought Roy was a shoe-in for Brawl.
I was a little said when I saw that Roy and Mewtwo weren't in the final roster.

Roy and Mewtwo are kind of like reparations rather than actual additions.
I can guarantee that if Roy was in vBrawl, a lot more people would want Lyn for the Clone Engine.
 
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Zeallyx

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That leaked list seems perfect to me: I'd play the heck out of all of those characters.

Especially Skull Kid<333 (though all others on that list are awesome too).
 

Spire

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Here's how I understand the "sword" argument:

People aren't born with swords in their hands. Taking up a sword is a choice. It is natural to fight unarmed because that's your body. Those who complain about "too many swords" do so from a point of view wherein they recognize how many other equippable weapons/tools there are, let alone represented by existing Nintendo characters. An oversaturation of sword-users can be reached sooner than an oversaturation of unarmed combatants because of the birth bias. Soul Calibur has done a good job of displaying a variety of weapon users in the fighting game realm (that's not to say it hasn't seen its share of sword users). With games like that existing, people begin to compare Smash, as if the visual weapon is the crux of the game. People just want to see diversity, and truthfully, in the video game realm: a sword is not a sword; there is no such thing as a "sword" in video games, let alone anything else; everything digital is an emulation of real-world property. A video game "sword" is simply an extended hitbox typically connected through one or two limbs.

The point being, swords can be wielded in many manners, usually influenced by real-world fighting styles. Most fighting games, with Smash being no exception, are collections of varied playstyles. This is the primary purpose of a fighting game. If unique playstyles could be achieved with sword inclusion, then you won't hear me complaining. I suppose as one last note, swords aren't prevalent in every Nintendo series, so when the subject of adding "another sword user" comes up, a number of series are instantly crossed off in peoples' minds. I think of Zelda, Fire Emblem, and Kid Icarus. I know there are some exceptions (i.e. Masked Man), but those three sport the most blades. People want not just a diversity of playstyles, but a diversity of series representation. As such, Smash Bros. is a very fickle series, necessitating representation of so many factors.

There is always disappointment in Smash Bros., but the enjoyment of the games outweighs the misses (and unwanted hits) that the series makes. Be grateful for even ONE more clone character in Project M! Be grateful for Mewtwo and Roy! Be grateful for Project M and the Backroom behind it!
 
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AnOkayDM

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A lot of people (myself included) thought Roy was a shoe-in for Brawl.
Really? I was here during pre-Brawl, and the majority of people were...not optimistic about his chances. I don't recall many people thinking he was a guarantee, or even particularly likely. Not many expected Mewtwo to be cut though. :/
 

Generically Epic

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Eh, for me it comes down to wanting another class from FE besides Lord... if lyn has a bow, great. There's many bows out there, like blessed bow, or killer bow, that could have different types of attacks. I'm happy for lyn, I just think fe could use something other than lord. My vote would be for tactician.
 

AnOkayDM

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Eh, for me it comes down to wanting another class from FE besides Lord... if lyn has a bow, great. There's many bows out there, like blessed bow, or killer bow, that could have different types of attacks. I'm happy for lyn, I just think fe could use something other than lord. My vote would be for tactician.
Or even if it was a lord, it could be someone like Ephraim who uses a different weapon, or a spellcaster of some kind.
 

Ginge

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Eh, for me it comes down to wanting another class from FE besides Lord... if lyn has a bow, great. There's many bows out there, like blessed bow, or killer bow, that could have different types of attacks. I'm happy for lyn, I just think fe could use something other than lord. My vote would be for tactician.
That's what I'm hoping for in Smash 4. I just think Chrom is more likely. Tactician would be badass because of having Sword + Magic, but you could even justify Tactician using ANY weapon because the My Unit character was able to change into any class. You could have a "Where do I keep all of these weapons?" 4th dimension storage like Peach. Or have a taunt switch playstyles between weapon classes.
 

Spire

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That's what I'm hoping for in Smash 4. I just think Chrom is more likely. Tactician would be badass because of having Sword + Magic, but you could even justify Tactician using ANY weapon because the My Unit character was able to change into any class. You could have a "Where do I keep all of these weapons?" 4th dimension storage like Peach. Or have a taunt switch playstyles between weapon classes.
Vaan from Dissidia 012 Duodecim answered this problem by attacking with a variety of weapons depending on the move. Like peach, he draws one of many weapons out of thin air upon issuing the command.
 

Ginge

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Vaan from Dissidia 012 Duodecim answered this problem by attacking with a variety of weapons depending on the move. Like peach, he draws one of many weapons out of thin air upon issuing the command.
Oh Dissidia. Such a great pair of games, will forever be underplayed/underappreciated for not being on PS3.
 

Rasgar

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Vaan from Dissidia 012 Duodecim answered this problem by attacking with a variety of weapons depending on the move. Like peach, he draws one of many weapons out of thin air upon issuing the command.
Or we could go the Firion route, and just have all the weapons strapped to him at once in a cumbersome looking yet strangely functional way.
 

The_NZA

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I'm not anti swords....I just see metaknight, Pit and Marth and I wonder what space there is for a Lyndis to be unique while still being a "swift" sword fighter. That's why I advocate for Lyn to be a DJC character since that would actually be hella unique (and is something we might not have a chance to see in another smash game, ever).
 

popsofctown

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- Overrepresenting FE:
I've seen enough voters who use this as a strike to know that it's kinda meh.
A lot of the time, when people use overrepping a series as a strike against characters, they usually end up supporting characters that belong to an overrepped series as well. Upvoting Pichu because they like Pichu, but downvoting Krystal "because there are too many Star Fox reps" or Upvoting Skull Kid because he's awesome, but downvoting Lyn "because there are too many FE reps" (these are all characters I support, so no bias there).

When it all comes down to it, it's quite apparent that whether or not a series is overrepped is subjective. Some think 3 Mother reps are okay, but 3 Metroid reps are too many. I've seen people argue that 2 F-Zero reps are too many, but 7 Pokes are fine.

You could call those people stupid, but if people can truthfully disagree on something, then it's subjective and not as strong of an argument as people make it out to be. The amount of hypocrisy and nitpicking is ridiculous.

You could use this as part of your vote, because it is still your opinion, but please don't use it thinking the argument is actually factual, because I'll have trouble taking you seriously.
I want Sami instead of Krystal/Skull Kid/Lyn/Pichu/Claus. Do I get a cookie?

He means that Roy shouldn't be addressed as a Clone Engine character.
A lot of people (myself included) thought Roy was a shoe-in for Brawl.
I was a little said when I saw that Roy and Mewtwo weren't in the final roster.

Roy and Mewtwo are kind of like reparations rather than actual additions.
I can guarantee that if Roy was in vBrawl, a lot more people would want Lyn for the Clone Engine.
As a Doc main that very much enjoyed angled projectiles and a Nair that gets stronger over time, I insist that Roy should "count". I mean, I'm not insisting that Doc should have been implemented fully just because Roy was, but you should recognize that Roy took time to implement and that the end result is a high amount of FE representation.
 

splat

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I'm not anti swords....I just see metaknight, Pit and Marth and I wonder what space there is for a Lyndis to be unique while still being a "swift" sword fighter.
How is Pit considered a sword fighter in the same vein as Marth and Metaknight? He holds two fairly small blades in his hands, they could have been boxing gloves hitbox-wise, couldn't they?
 

AnOkayDM

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How is Pit considered a sword fighter in the same vein as Marth and Metaknight? He holds two fairly small blades in his hands, they could have been boxing gloves hitbox-wise, couldn't they?

Except when they're one big sword that he uses as a two-bladed weapon.

Either way, he's not the same kind of swordsman as Marth, Meta Knight, Link, etc. But I would still count him as a swordsman.
 

arcticfox8

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Except when they're one big sword that he uses as a two-bladed weapon.

Either way, he's not the same kind of swordsman as Marth, Meta Knight, Link, etc. But I would still count him as a swordsman.
It's a bow though. Pit is an archer.
More archers pls
 
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