Neutrals and Counter Picks

[StripesOrBars]

No I have a better idea.

Lets play on only ****** stages like Distant Planet and Jungle Japes.

This way, the only chance anyone has of winning a match will be if they play MetaKnight or Falco.

GTFO kid.

It's blasphemy to give someone an unfair advantage and take away the little bit of skill it takes to win matches in this game.

 

[Kamano]

It's blasphemy to give someone an unfair advantage

Looks like you don't understand the concept of counterpicks.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Looks like you don't understand the concept of counterpicks.

Looks like you suck at this game and need the stage to win matches for you.

Ugh.

Here we go.

I call for all stages to be ones made in the create a stage.

No floors, only spikes.

This way, the game is less skillful and only characters that can glide will win matches.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Bahh... I'm not limiting tourneys to 5 stages... sorry, but no.

 

[StripesOrBars]

It doesn't need to be 5.

Smashville
FD
Yoshi
Lylatt
Battlefield

Delfino
Halberd
PokeStadium1
1 more maybe
1 more maybe

 

[nevershootme]

sheesh, no one really listened to my suggestion in the first place, make a neutral stage from the builder,

end of story....

 

[OTRU...]

luigi's mansion is my favorite counter vs campy pits!! its one of the few stages in which pit cant camp under the stage, should be a Counterpick

 

[QDVS]

I <3 Rockcrock!!!

Have mah babies Dennis!!!

 

[Linguini]

Pete I gave a **** about stages in melee, in brawl I could care less because DK has infinites on 3/4th's of em hahahaha.

 

[exarch]

For the record, Mute City was one of the most important counterpicks in Melee. In NTSC, it made Peach a viable character and gave her winnable matchups against any other character in the game. It has never been "Mute City won the game for this player," it has always been "This player knew how to use the stage better than the other and therefore won the game."

That said, the only reasons to ban a stage is because a specific character is so broken on it, there is no reason to play any other, or because the result has more to do with luck of the draw than overall skill level.

At this point in the metagame we should allow ALL or ALMOST ALL stages in tourneys, and until it gets to a point where EVERYONE picks Fox on Onett because he destroys everyone else there, no stage should be banned.

Walled stages? Pick DDD or someone who falls over from his Dthrow. Until DDD becomes the only or one of a very few viable characters pick to play on that stage, there is no reason to ban it. Otherwise it's just a good counterpick.
Stages bad for tether recoveries? Pick someone without a tether recovery.

Until a single character becomes so dominant on that everyone plays him on the stage even if they don't play him in general, or there is such an element of randomness one must rely on luck of the draw, you CANNOT BAN THE STAGE.

The stage must be proven broken either for a single character or in randomness before it can be banned.

To demonstrate: in melee
Temple, Yoshi 64, Fourside, Onett, PPC, Pipes and MK1/2 were banned because there was no reason to play anyone else but Fox on those levels.
Icicle Moutain was broken for Falco.
Flatzone, Brinstar Depths and Big Blue were broken in randomness. Stage positioning could take stocks from an inconvenient (missed) tech, or due to falling through the level. There was no way to significantly predict this either.

These should be the only reasons for banning levels for now. I agree with Rock in that any stage which changes the focus significantly from fighting the opponent to avoiding the stage should be banned as well, but that falls closely with the randomness argument.

When I can actually think of which stages have which names I'll probably come back and weigh in on some.

However, the argument for unbanning Norfair I think is solid. The reason I thought to ban it was because when the wave comes from the back the match becomes about getting into the capsule. If you can shield the wave, it shouldn't be banned. Make it a CP.

 

[dguy6789]

Snip

Agreed. I am in favor of having as many stages as possible be legal for tournament play.

 

[Finch]

I respect doodah a lot but this is ****ing stupid. If you don't like counterpicks then don't play in smash tournaments. If peach could ****ing counterpick mute city against ice climbers in melee I should be able to counterpick luigi's mansion as MK. There are a lot of stages in brawl that could and should be legitimate counterpicks since we have them in the standard tournament layout. Most people just counterpick neutrals all the time and it works for them but if some people want to pick a gay stage so they can at least win one match then so be it. That's why matches are 2/3.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Yeah, basically...

I mean, I don't like the stages that can win matches for people...and imo, Luigi's Mansion falls under that category...however, a lot of stages are being bashed for not much reason at all. Castle siege might be the best anti-camper level in the game, and people hate it because you go down with the floor? wtf? it's not that bad. It's a better level overall than Halberd.

honestly, if Siege were to get banned, I'd kinda lose hope in the players of this game.


Distant Planet is a really weird stage... I would understand it being banned... but siege? no...cruise? no...
Even Pirate Ship, I could understand...but not really.
There's no reason to ban a large number of these levels due to personal bias. Some of them are quite fair...some of them are a bit one-sided, but that's honestly a good counterpick..as long as it's not glitchy or gives one player a huge advantage.

Also, nobody's responding to my question about Brinstar... why not allow that stage? I'm confused about that one.

 

[3GOD]

To demonstrate: in melee
Temple, Yoshi 64, Fourside, Onett, PPC, Pipes and MK1/2 were banned because there was no reason to play anyone else but Fox on those levels.

Why exactly was Pipes banned for Fox? He could wave-shine people off the side, but one could argue that one can pick Fox or someone who falls over from the Shine (a decent portion of the cast). Of course, the reason may have been the ridiculously low ceiling. Falco can shine people off the top at super low percents (though Pokefloats was never banned despite having that advantage there as well).

If it was wave-shining that got Pipes banned, then all stages with walk-off edges should be banned in Brawl thanks to Dedede. I would prefer though that Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, and Rainbow Cruise remain available for counterpick despite having portions with walk-off edges.

 

[exarch]

Why exactly was Pipes banned for Fox? He could wave-shine people off the side, but one could argue that one can pick Fox or someone who falls over from the Shine (a decent portion of the cast). Of course, the reason may have been the ridiculously low ceiling. Falco can shine people off the top at super low percents (though Pokefloats was never banned despite having that advantage there as well).

If it was wave-shining that got Pipes banned, then all stages with walk-off edges should be banned in Brawl thanks to Dedede. I would prefer though that Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, and Rainbow Cruise remain available for counterpick despite having portions with walk-off edges.

Pipes was banned not only for the waveshines off the level, but also because of the low ceilings.

The difference is that Fox ruined every character who fell over from the shine on those levels too (except Falco). DDD, in contrast, is countered by most characters who fall over from Dthrow. It made Fox realistically the only playable character on that level in a tournament setting.

Gdubs, Kirby, Jiggs, M2, Pichu, Pika, Roy, and YLink only fell over from the shine because they were light. On any of these characters the low ceiling and high sloped sides meant they were going to be killed earlier than usual and have a harder time killing fox.

I forgot about the locks until a few minutes ago. Falco's Laser, Mario's Jab, and Icy's Blocks all are infinite locks against walls. These are unavoidable and many have good setups for them (Falco especially).

Actually after playing with it myself for a little bit, Falco would become the only playable character on any level with a wall. I would be willing to ban walled levels for Falco's brokenness. 0-50 dthrow CG into spike into laser lock for the rest of the game.

 

[Kamano]

I'd be amazed if you could show me evidence of a falco player who's able to consistently laser lock on demand. The biggest issue for every laser/block lock setup is that an opponent has to miss a tech for it to work, which means it's entirely avoidable, and considering the %'s that are required for most locks, the tech isn't a terribly tight timing.

As a Falco main though, if it does eventually become a problem, I could definitely understand banning walled stages due to it, but I think it's another situation that while great on paper, doesn't really occur often enough to warrant anything drastic.

And I have to agree wholeheartedly with you on the stages Exarch. There are of course a few stages that scream broken for various reasons (New Pork, 75m, the moving stages aside from Rainbow Cruise, etc), but outside of those that really stand out, many of the others don't present any gigantic threat to the point where they should instantly be banned. Wait it out a bit and see if there's a problem, then act from there. Same deal as TGM banning chain grabs past 3 and all locks (laser, block, jab) in his Texas tourneys without giving a chance to see if they're really broken enough to cause imbalance.

 

[cultofrubik]

Fenrir, I agree with you on Brinstar. Might as well get a stage that really isn't messed up. We're used to it too, so hoorah!

Neutral

BF
FD
SV
LC [ew]
YI

CP:

Norfair
PS1
DP
Frigate
Brinstar

And lets make some more neutral stages. Seriously it wouldnt be hard. Then we can make a layout, post a picture in a thread somewhere so we all can replicate it. VOOLAH!

 

[Kamano]

Problem with stage creator stages as neutrals; they can't be put on random

 

[StripesOrBars]

Luigi's Mansion is not a fair stage.

Dear God.

Omg omg omg omg omg omg.

Walls people.

Ok, well then I'm pro Sky World and Mario Kart than.

I'm serious too.

I want Mario Kart on.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Looks like you suck at this game and need the stage to win matches for you.

Ugh.

Here we go.

I call for all stages to be ones made in the create a stage.

No floors, only spikes.

This way, the game is less skillful and only characters that can glide will win matches.

Actually, Wario's Bike rides normally on spikes.

Wario for top tier.

 

[Finch]

Luigi's Mansion is not a fair stage.

Dear God.

Omg omg omg omg omg omg.

Walls people.

Ok, well then I'm pro Sky World and Mario Kart than.

I'm serious too.

I want Mario Kart on.

Counterpicks aren't supposed to be fair stages. If they were they would be neutral.

 

[AfroQT]

Lets just do all neutral sbut if we HAVE to have counterpicks i wanna play on the DK up scrolling stage.

 

[Kamano]

If you counterpick rumble falls I switch to MK



wait what

 

[Fenrir VII]

Mansion is gay because people have the "stay in the house" tactic that completely changes the way you have to approach them. Now normally, this would be a good thing, but I say the stage is actually BENEFICIAL for campers. You could, legitimately, land a hit and then run away forever on that stage... It actually reminds me of a much more gay Great Bay from Melee... almost temple gay. People can live forever...and it changes who would normally win a match, somewhat randomly.

If it's beneficial for MK, than it just is...oh well. not a huge deal. My problem is that it changes the round to include a lot of random things (running away, random ceiling spikes. bad edges, etc etc) that could completely change the match result from what it should be...regardless of who knows the stage best.Especially since people can do really gimpy things under the roof, like Olimar's usmash, Ike's upB... it's just a really random feeling stage. I'm in favor of banning it.


I'd say probably the most fair list at the moment would be:

Neutrals:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's
Lylat

Counterpicks:
Pokemon Stadium 1
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Castle Siege
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise
Frigate Orpheon
Pirate Ship



Now, Pirate Ship, Orpheon, and Cruise have all been debated. I support them all, because I think they're all legitimate. Distant Planet, I support as well, but I can understand why it's kinda on the edge, so I just got rid of it.

Cruise benefits aerial characters...of which there are many...and hurts those with not too great recoveries...of which there are several. I don't really think it's an autowin for any character...or against any character other than perhaps Olimar. I'll be happy to take a $1 MM with my ZSS to back myself up on it. If the stage screws me, then I might have to change some of my opinions.

Orpheon only gays people under very different circumstances. Again, it's bad for Olimar...but as a counterpick, you know that they're going there, so you don't have to play Olimar...just a simple truth. I like the edge guarding factor n the right side of the first form...and the second form is just good. The walk off sides are helpful for recoveries at times...and nobody should ever get grabbed there. so I think the stage is very legit

Pirate Ship is a valuable counterpick for some characters with the water factor. Ganon was an excellent point there. If this should indeed be banned, I would not shed a tear or anything...but I think it's ok.

Brinstar...I really can't see any reason to debate its fairness. : /

Castle Siege only kills dumb people...so oh well to them

 

[StripesOrBars]

I agree with all of Fenrir's stages except for Pirate Ship.

Too scrubby.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I agree with all of Fenrir's stages except for Pirate Ship.

Too scrubby.

Yeah, that's fair... imo, that's the worst of them. I think it can be a legit CP... but idk. I'm pretty much ready for people to debate it, as I don't personally care that much. I like the level...but I also like pictochat, so oh well. heheh

 

[OTRU...]

add luigi's mansion and it will be good to go

 

[Finch]

Yeah Fenrir's list is good except I still think LM should be a CP. If you don't like the stage just destroy it lol.

 

[StripesOrBars]

LOL @ Finch post.

Luigi's Mansion shouldn't be on.

WALLS.

That's without a doubt the best reason for it being off.

 

[AfroQT]

DK up scrolling stage theres a helicopter and running water over the RIO G RANDE best stage in the world.

 

[Samus_ABe]

afro ur obsessed with that stage

 

[AfroQT]

I dont see why its not on everyone wants gay f@ggot stages on so i wanna play on DK's level its perfectly fair there arent walls and theres a river. Rainbow cruise is on let DK get some love.

 

[StripesOrBars]

I agree with FroBro.

Plus, you can have the K Rool music from DKC1.

Rumble Falls needs to be on.

 

[AfroQT]

See doodah knows whats up hes siding with the good stage so his **** must be big and K Rool is a beast.

 

[cultofrubik]

I believe Fenrir's list to be perfect. I say we end the discussion and have ourselves a great list of stages.

[Or we could play Melee! :DDDD]

 

[Proteus]

I also think Fenrir's list is good. I would add Norfair as a counterpick, but I won't lose any sleep if it's banned.

 

[leafgreen386]

I pretty much agree with fenrir's list in its entirety. I used to think luigi's mansion would be a good counterpick stage, but after playing on it enough, I realized that you could very easily survive to ridiculous percentages, even by brawl standards. Really, I'd say it was almost as bad as temple. And although I personally don't like rainbow cruise or orpheon, I do think they should be kept counterpicks.

 

[Metal_Dave]

Mansion is gay because people have the "stay in the house" tactic that completely changes the way you have to approach them. Now normally, this would be a good thing, but I say the stage is actually BENEFICIAL for campers. You could, legitimately, land a hit and then run away forever on that stage... It actually reminds me of a much more gay Great Bay from Melee... almost temple gay. People can live forever...and it changes who would normally win a match, somewhat randomly.

If it's beneficial for MK, than it just is...oh well. not a huge deal. My problem is that it changes the round to include a lot of random things (running away, random ceiling spikes. bad edges, etc etc) that could completely change the match result from what it should be...regardless of who knows the stage best.Especially since people can do really gimpy things under the roof, like Olimar's usmash, Ike's upB... it's just a really random feeling stage. I'm in favor of banning it.


I'd say probably the most fair list at the moment would be:

Neutrals:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
Yoshi's
Lylat

Counterpicks:
Pokemon Stadium 1
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Castle Siege
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise
Frigate Orpheon
Pirate Ship



Now, Pirate Ship, Orpheon, and Cruise have all been debated. I support them all, because I think they're all legitimate. Distant Planet, I support as well, but I can understand why it's kinda on the edge, so I just got rid of it.

Cruise benefits aerial characters...of which there are many...and hurts those with not too great recoveries...of which there are several. I don't really think it's an autowin for any character...or against any character other than perhaps Olimar. I'll be happy to take a $1 MM with my ZSS to back myself up on it. If the stage screws me, then I might have to change some of my opinions.

Orpheon only gays people under very different circumstances. Again, it's bad for Olimar...but as a counterpick, you know that they're going there, so you don't have to play Olimar...just a simple truth. I like the edge guarding factor n the right side of the first form...and the second form is just good. The walk off sides are helpful for recoveries at times...and nobody should ever get grabbed there. so I think the stage is very legit

Pirate Ship is a valuable counterpick for some characters with the water factor. Ganon was an excellent point there. If this should indeed be banned, I would not shed a tear or anything...but I think it's ok.

Brinstar...I really can't see any reason to debate its fairness. : /

Castle Siege only kills dumb people...so oh well to them

This imo is the best list I have seen so far. The few debatable factors here in this list is Lylat either being neutral, or counterpick.
Delfino seriously should be banned...I'm not a big fan of dying because of ******** stage glitches...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofNU12PRMpA

Pirate ship has to go...infinites...bombs...said enough already lol.

Brinstar I have no problem with but this stage also seems glitchy. I've done dairs on this stage and simply fell through like if there was no floors. I would keep it, but that random **** is pretty lame. =\

 

[bladeofapollo]

DK up scrolling stage theres a helicopter and running water over the RIO G RANDE best stage in the world.

I have a slight problem with the "death spikes" on the stage. They always catch me by surprise.

 

[Proteus]

This imo is the best list I have seen so far. The few debatable factors here in this list is Lylat either being neutral, or counterpick.
Delfino seriously should be banned...I'm not a big fan of dying because of ******** stage glitches...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofNU12PRMpA

That can happen on PS in Melee too, but rare glitches don't warrant a ban.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFIXB7xtJwA

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