Ness

[Robert of Normandy]

Then why not give Ness's PKT the same attributes as Lucas's? There's more than enough else to help them stand apart from each other.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, they could and that would help Ness tremendously, but I think people would cry foul over advanced genetic cloning and all that.

 

[Robert of Normandy]

Well, they could and that would help Ness tremendously, but I think people would cry foul over advanced genetic cloning and all that.

Well, those people suck and shouldn't be taken seriously.

 

[NessOnett]

The PKT2 mindgame is mostly prevalent in SOLELY Brawl, and you just went to such great lengths to say that Brawl removed a lot of things from Ness (and Smash in general) that should have stayed. Ness's upB is also a worse attack than the upB's of a lot of characters, like Bowser, Samus, etc. If the move could combo into something, it would be different, but as of now, Ness is simply just risking damage to his body for just a bit of extra damage. The move can't edgeguard because it pops the opponent upwards. Even in P:M, the move almost combos......almost, but Ness spends too much time wagging his head after connecting the projectile to actually follow up with anything.

I don't know why I keep responding to someone who's pretty much wrong across the board...on everything...and I've proven it.

But when I present facts, all I get in response is "it doesn't matter because still bad" with nothing to back it up.

So it won't bother to explain how NTSC is young, tier lists existed long before the smash backroom(which is why melee evolved so slowly because the community was small). Or the fact that Link falling eventually to weaknesses developing has NO impact on my argument that offensive power is an offset to poor recovery power(a point you made even stronger with your Samus comparison, so thanks for proving me right).

Ness was no better in Brawl. Period. His mindgames were worse, his tricks were worse, his moves were straight up weaker, and the rest of the cast was stronger by comparison.

Ness' ^B has the advantage of range. I can list any number of characters who are only good because of their ranged harass. And an equal number who are severely crippled by their melee-only kits. Ness has the longest range around obstructions, can actively track targets, etc. The head hit doesn't "pop them up" it pulls them in a direction. Meaning the angle in which you hit them affects the way they move(have you ever actually PLAYED Ness?) And if you hit them with the tail, then you get exactly what YOU seem to want 100% of the time, which is them just dropping helplessly. Options, you get the best of both worlds, and can do whatever you need for the situation. Even if you suck at angles you can't deny of knocking them up into the underside of a lip and having them bounce with emphasis down to their death.

As far as any of your arguments about "him needlessly shaking his head after" or "too much recovery delay." Nobody is suggesting that it has to have exactly the same frames as is does now. It can be buffed six ways to Sunday and nobody would be opposed to it. The problem comes in remaking it into a new skill. Which would be...stupid. And pointless to argue about since there's a better chance of Paula replacing Ness as Ness' ^B getting remade. So you seem to be all over the board...which is usually a sign that someone is talking out their *** with no idea whats going on. But yeah, this post was a waste of time since you're just gonna say "nah lol u rong." And make up some more lies to try and attack me instead of using facts.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, I don't use facts? Even when I cite my sources and provide you with links? Wow, you seem to be salty about something...

Yep, an 11 year old game sure is young, huh? I guess SSB 64's metagame is also still a green little sapling. Offensive power can be an offset to poor recovery ONLY if that offensive power is so strong and dominating that the character doesn't even need to worry about recovering so much. Great examples of this are Melee's Falco and Brawl's Olimar, both currently being #2 in their respective tier lists. Falco's recovery is pretty short ranged and linear, so combos often equal death for him and he's easily gimped. Nevertheless, his onstage game is so destructive and nigh unbeatable that he doesn't even have to worry much about being sent far offstage. In a very similar sense, Olimar's recovery is shallow and easily edgeguarded (just edgehog him). However, his onstage game is so dominating that he still destroys most of the competition. Funnily enough, if you look at the #1 character of each of these Smash games (and SSB 64, for that matter), you find a character who's both dominating on-stage and great at recovering. I don't understand how my Samus argument proved any of your points. Samus is both decent on-stage (better than Ness) and has a wonderful recovery (better than Ness).

You talk like someone who's strongly against Brawl in every shape and form. If the rest of the cast got "stronger by comparison" relative to Ness, then how did Ness end up being higher on the Brawl tier list than he has ever been in a tier list for ANY Smash game? I can understand if you really don't like Brawl (I don't really like it much, either), but don't let your bias affect your judgment and cause the truth you see to become disfigured.

Uh, characters " severely crippled by their melee-only kits?" What about Jiggs, Falcon, and Ganon? Jiggs is Top Tier, Falcon is High Tier, and Ganon is Upper Mid Tier. Neither of these characters has a single ranged attack or projectile in his or her arsenal. Projectiles don't make a character good, and this goes doubly so for Ness, since his PKT just leaves him open and can't even be combo'd out of. The ONLY ways the move is useful are if Ness stage spikes with it (as you mentioned), he manages to trap them with the tail, or he somehow mindgames the opponent into being hit by PKT2. All of these things are quite easy for the opponent to avoid.

I don't see how getting a new special would be "stupid," as you put it. In fact, going from recent Smash history, there's a fine chance that the move might be changed. Mario's tornado turned into FLUDD. Bowser's Koopa Klaw turned into some weird body slamming thing. Falco's bodily reflector changed into one that he kicked. A change for Ness's upB certainly wouldn't seem out of the ordinary. I don't see how talking at several places on SWF has to do with anything. Top level players do the same thing, and I don't think you'd dare to say the same things about them that you're saying about me.

 

[κomıc]

Honestly, I think Ness got a bit better in Brawl than he did in Melee. And I've used him almost exclusively across all 3 games (I main Kirby but I'm more attached to Ness). When it comes to all these tech aspects people bring up here in the forums, I don't know half of what people are talking about (PKT2- is that PK Fire twice in a row?)

As for his Up-B, honestly, it's fine. Again, as someone who uses Ness actively and not passively, it's fine the way it is. I don't see it getting much better than what it is. It they made PK Thunder "better", then his recovery (missile) may have to be nerfed just so he isn't OP. And honestly, there's nothing more satisfying than landing a good hit on someone with PK ThunderMissle. The tail of PK Thunder was a real nice addition to Ness' UpB, and I use it when someone is either trying to get back on stage or just to simple rack up damage whilst not being predictable.

To each his own.

 

[SmashShadow]

PKT= PK Thunder (projectile)
PKT2 = PK Thunder (hit yourself with PK Thunder)

 

[bubbaking]

A new move for a new Smash doesn't sound bad at all, IMO. Keeping exactly the same kit for four games in a row gets kinda boring tbh. Besides, for actual Earthbound fans, I think another upB move would be more canon, especially if it was PSI Teleport.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

A new move for a new Smash doesn't sound bad at all, IMO. Keeping exactly the same kit for four games in a row gets kinda boring tbh. Besides, for actual Earthbound fans, I think another upB move would be more canon, especially if it was PSI Teleport.

It worked for CAPsule COMputers.

 

[platomaker]

Ah, I love using Ness... but I'd like some things changed about him.

He needs that Grab Release issue gone.

I'd like his attacks to have more range.

He needs a safer recovery.

Less lag on some moves.

A better ground game.

And this is kind of a wacky idea, but maybe give him the ability to levitate? (kinda like Peach's Float) XD

Oh I also want his Fair to do some decent shield damage. =P

Also, am I the only one I didn't like Ness could DJC with his aerials? I honestly preferred him being able to DJC only with his Specials and Item Throws. =P

@Bubbaking: I think Pre lag means Start-up time and post lag is Cooldown.

I agree with this, the grab release thing was a reason to punish people for choosing ness. Although its "in the game" I'm more than sure it wasn't suppose to be that exploitable.

The recovery is okay, but the hit frames should coincide with the animation (I still see thunder, why is this not hurting you?) If you go too hard onto the ledge you ricochet off and if you go too soft and still touch it nothing happens even if the animation is still running. Other than that, going a little farther wouldn't hurt the game's balance at all.

The bat is slower and has a bit more power (than lucas's), RANGE is what matters. Lucas's Side smash is absolutely superior in this aspect since it doesn't need that range (because of the speed and still has Great knockback). If the power was exceptionally better and/or had MUCH better knock back at the same speed and range then I could understand (A cracked homerun bat is the first weapon in the game after all). That's what's missing from his ground game I'd say. (aside from the grab-release)

In fact, a bit more range on all PK and item attacks, though I must say the PK fire is perfect already. The only true suggestion to that is, similar to samus's missles, if you lightly apply pressure to the control stick in that direction then the spark will die off closer to you but will become stronger per hit and in air will go off more at an angle with the lightest going straight downward.

and Finally, this is for all characters I suppose, ness should be able to jump out of grab if the jump button is tapped repeatedly from getting grabbed. His second jump relies on psychic powers so wouldn't it make sense to kick off your opponent by choice? Even pressing up should go into the footstool animation.

 

[bubbaking]

and Finally, this is for all characters I suppose, ness should be able to jump out of grab if the jump button is tapped repeatedly from getting grabbed. His second jump relies on psychic powers so wouldn't it make sense to kick off your opponent by choice? Even pressing up should go into the footstool animation.

That's actually something that Melee had. The one being grabbed had complete control over whether he was ground released or air released. Control shifted completely over to the grabber in Brawl.

 

[yoshi8984]

Something I'd love is that Yo-yos become like they are in Project M.

Charging it hits the opponent multiple times and keeps them grounded, then the actual swing sends them flying, and both the U-Smash and D-Smash can be charged over the ledge.
They'd also have great range.
If they did that, I'd love Ness' Yo-yos even more. XD

 

[grizby2]

A new move for a new Smash doesn't sound bad at all, IMO. Keeping exactly the same kit for four games in a row gets kinda boring tbh. Besides, for actual Earthbound fans, I think another upB move would be more canon, especially if it was PSI Teleport.

psi magnet didn't require ness to absorb attacks...
so we can just have ness use psi magnet over and over. continuously healing himself.
that should resolve all problems regarding ness's tier placement forever.

im kidding, psi magnet didn't even heal HP, just recovered PP. he doesn't even learn psi magnet..
but he DOES learn PSI HEALING.

 

[yoshi8984]

Oh yeah, speaking of PSI Magnet, I'd love it if its start-up was immediate and could be jump-cancelled or at least have its cool down lag reduced as well

 

[Ove]

Oh yeah, speaking of PSI Magnet, I'd love it if its start-up was immediate and could be jump-cancelled or at least have its cool down lag reduced as well

It would make sense since PSI Magnet is much worse than the shine (even when not taking lag into consideration), which has 1 frame startup and can be jump canceled.

 

[grizby2]

it'd be cool if psi magnet could do a nice push with set knockback when its casted in addition to its energy absorption. the push wouldn't need to do any dmamge.

wait im contridicting myself, its not much of a magnet if it pushes people is it?!
maybe it can suck people in instead, and then release enemies outward with a burst of energy!

which reminds me, they really ought to make it clear as to what counts as an energy projectile in sm4sh.
thoughts?

 

[Ember Reaper]

it'd be cool if psi magnet could do a nice push with set knockback when its casted in addition to its energy absorption. the push wouldn't need to do any dmamge.

It already does that...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tenae4sNbwY

 

[grizby2]

It already does that...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tenae4sNbwY

well ya, i know it does that. have you tried doing that in an actual match though? it takes too much time to do something so negligible.

i mean a NICE push. something that wouldn't put ness in danger.

 

[CAB77]

I like the difficulty of recovering with PK Thunder. It makes Ness not your casual pick-up character. He's harder to learn. Hurray!

I am okay with Ness's Project: M move set. They done good with him.

However, if Ness were to receive any new moves, I'd want his specials (save neutral and v B) completely redone so he uses abilities he actually possesses in Earthbound.

 

[yoshi8984]

If Ness' PSI Magnet did a bigger push, then maybe it'd be another good gimping tool like FLUDD xD
Though again, it does need instant start-up and no cooldown and the ability to be jump cancelled. =P

Project M's Ness I loooooove, especially with the Yo-Yos since they hit multiple times and can hang off of ledges, and PK Fire having its lag practically 0 after landing and its ability to activate on shields, if he has that in Smash 4, I think Ness would be pretty scary. XD

PK Flash could be done like in Brawl Minus, where if Ness gets interrupted or the flash hits a ceiling/ground/wall, it'd instantly explode, so your opponent would be like
"Oh hey Ness, I'm gonna hit you out of your PK Flash now.
Ness: OK
*explodes on opponent after hitting Ness*
Opponent: WTF AHHHHHHHH"
XD
Speaking of PK Flash, I think it also slightly needs a knockback increase, since PKT2's sweetspot kills earlier and does 25% while PK Flash can do 37% but kills later lol

 

[Diddy Kong]

Can you show a link of how PK Flash works in Brawl-? Haven't seen much from Brawl- lately, but I do love the concept of them making all characters extremely good. It looks pretty realistic, as in the real Smash Bros it looks a little like the characters are 'holding back' in some cases.

Up B or heck, even Side B could work as PK Teleport. Why side B? Cause he could make it a running animation, and recover similary with it like Ike / Luigi / Pikachu do, most similar to how Ike's works, but covering distance like Zelda's Up B. If fully charged it could become as powerful as an attack as PK Thunder 2 therefore rightfully replace it. Up B could be something like PK Brainstorm, or Offense Up like Lucas has in one of the Brawl hacks.

 

[Big-Cat]

Here's something I don't get. Why does PSI Magnet PUSH the opponent away (and at close range for that matter?) when a magnet PULLS in? Wouldn't it make more sense for PSI Magnet to function primarily as such?

 

[bubbaking]

Well, I never really questioned that one. The "magnet" is drawing in energy and when's he done sucking in all that energy, the release creates a little 'push'. That's why the push is small and barely noticeable. In Lucas's case, he creates a little electric discharge instead of a push.

 

[Big-Cat]

Except he's not drawing in anything, just absorbing.

 

[bubbaking]

Weeeellllllll, if you look at the aesthetics around his Magnet, you can see wind being pulled inwards towards him. I know it's a bit of a stretch, but I'm just explaining why the way the Magnet worked never really puzzled me, although confusion about it is understandable.

 

[Ember Reaper]

well ya, i know it does that. have you tried doing that in an actual match though? it takes too much time to do something so negligible.

i mean a NICE push. something that wouldn't put ness in danger.

I have actually attempted, but it didn't go for the best. It can in theory stop someone from recovering if timed correctly. it could even push say Ike away as he uses his over smash. very risky, but if successful he would be wide open.

 

[bubbaking]

Isn't his Smash long-ranged enough that he would still hit you? O_o

 

[yoshi8984]

I think Ike's Smash attacks have too much range to push him away with the small PSI Magnet windbox. Even if you did push him away, you'd most likely get hit, it'd just be better to like U/D-Smash him instead.
Wow got ninja'd on this lol

The windbox is near useless in Singles, but in Doubles it's amazing. XD

 

[grizby2]

Can you show a link of how PK Flash works in Brawl-? Haven't seen much from Brawl- lately, but I do love the concept of them making all characters extremely good. It looks pretty realistic, as in the real Smash Bros it looks a little like the characters are 'holding back' in some cases.

Up B or heck, even Side B could work as PK Teleport. Why side B? Cause he could make it a running animation, and recover similary with it like Ike / Luigi / Pikachu do, most similar to how Ike's works, but covering distance like Zelda's Up B. If fully charged it could become as powerful as an attack as PK Thunder 2 therefore rightfully replace it. Up B could be something like PK Brainstorm, or Offense Up like Lucas has in one of the Brawl hacks.

i would miss pk fire horribly.

i always envisioned PK thunder to have a diddy kong-like charge up, and the steering properties of lucarios recovery.

 

[Ember Reaper]

Isn't his Smash long-ranged enough that he would still hit you? O_o

The first example I thought of
I guess better could be Bowser's maybe the Captain and Ganondorf. very specific conditions

 

[SmashChu]

Here's something I don't get. Why does PSI Magnet PUSH the opponent away (and at close range for that matter?) when a magnet PULLS in? Wouldn't it make more sense for PSI Magnet to function primarily as such?

Did you know magnets can push objects away too.

 

[bubbaking]

 

[metho]

I think they need to add the option to make PK thunder go faster. Tapping B would be normal speed while holding down B would make it go faster.

 

[Shirekeldeo7]

At least change his recovery because in some stages you won't be able to recover easily and die

 

[grizby2]

i have an idea for PKT.
it can fix the gimping problem that all character can do to ness. the whole "i gonna run into your projectile so you fall to death" thing.

i suggest that the projectile be made of two parts.

1. the electricity
2. the core

the electricity is what will hit people, in the same manner that we know it does now. when it does hit someone, the electricity is gone, and we are left with the core. the core does NOT vanish until it touches the caster (which ultimatly creates PKT2), its time runs out, or it is detonated by the caster (keep reading!). Also, it should be made so the core doesn't collide with other players or the environment, making ness's recovery much more safer.
when the electricity hits someone or is blocked, the core is still flying about. this leaves ness open when he's not using it to recover. this is where detonating the core comes into play.
the core can be detonated by pressing B while its out, and a small circular electric field is produced, doing very small damage and sends the opponent upwards a bit (this prevents the small explosion from being a way to simply score a gimp K.O.). this can also be used to cancle the move earlier if need be! it can be used in conjunction with the first hit for a small 2-hit combo. detonating PKT before it looses its electricity does not increase the damage of the electric field .

overall, i think it would grant more options defense and offense wise.
Adds something different and new to ness as well. thoughts?

 

[Yobolight]

Keep PKT2 how it is. Some recoveries shouldn't be good

-Ness main

 

[grizby2]

Keep PKT2 how it is. Some recoveries shouldn't be good

-Ness main

...brutal...

 

[lordvaati]

Here's something I don't get. Why does PSI Magnet PUSH the opponent away (and at close range for that matter?) when a magnet PULLS in? Wouldn't it make more sense for PSI Magnet to function primarily as such?

hmm...should it draw in projectiles to itself(like a whiffed arrow of Pit's goes into the Magnet, for example.)? that could force approaches from enemies

 

[Bowserlick]

hmm...should it draw in projectiles to itself(like a whiffed arrow of Pit's goes into the Magnet, for example.)? that could force approaches from enemies

Yes, I think it should draw in nearby energy projectiles. More mayhem in multiplayer.

 

[Tikao]

give ness his psi-rockin omega
he deals 320-960% and doesn't care about recoverys and grabreleases anymore

and if he gets damage, he can psi-teleport beta to his home at any time (even if he's in hitstun, this will also cancel his hitstun), get rid of his homesickness, eat a steak or two, and then teleporting back with 0% damage

and his down-b summons "raining-mr-saturns"

and ness has the ability to travel back in time and fighting the enemy, when he was "a-bit" younger and weaker .... hehe

and he can float like peach, has a optional double-jump-cancel like in P:M

and ness can read the mind of the enemy, everything the enemy is doing is showed on screen ... so ness can predict anything ... but everything the enemy does, has a delay of 60frames, because it would be useless otherwise

and then Ness will be banned by the community because of his overpowered-Ness

ssb4 tierlist

banned
banned
banned
banned
banned
banned
banned
banned
banned
banned
mk
spongebob
a football
unicorn
ganondorf
toon-ganondorf

only 16 charakters, because sakurai used all of the money to invent airtripping
if you trip in the air, you're just falling like after the airdodge in melee but with less dodging and more falling