Ness Matchup Discussion (PRELIMINARY)

[Earthbound360]

Diddy vs. Ness is really hard. I would rate this matchup -2. I see Ness as defensive character in this game and diddy has a lot of great tools to get around your pk fire, shield, and runaway game.

Don't use PKF in this matchup

 

[PSIBoy]

Don't use PKF in this matchup

Except for hard reads and even then it's extremely risky.

 

[L9999]

Diddy vs. Ness is really hard. I would rate this matchup -2. I see Ness as defensive character in this game and diddy has a lot of great tools to get around your pk fire, shield, and runaway game.

Yeah, -2, say, Diddy doesn't shut down Ness but he is a problem with his juggle of pain and unfairly strong U-Air. Not to mention he can dodge PK Fire with anything he has including UP SMASHING, not kidding, try it. F-air is too fast, comes out fast and has a ton of range. Same with UAir. PK Thunder can mess his recovery but really, who recovers low with Diddy? Not to mention he can wall jump.

 

[Pazzo.]

-2 sounds reasonable.

Nothing impossible, but slightly in Diddy's favor.

 

[Noa.]

I feel like this matchup is fine. It feels either even or -1 to me. Diddy and Ness are both very similar characters in that they revolve heavily around landing a grab, and then proceeding to do a lot of followup damage. They both also have exploitable recoveries, though Diddy's is a lot easier for us to gimp than vice versa. If Diddy ever has to use up b to recover, it's basically a free stock for us if you hit him with pk thunder while he's recovering, preferably the tail of pk thunder. We also kill easier than him because our kill setups out of throws are more reliably and not as dependent on specific percentages or reads.

Diddy however has an easier time landing the grab on us because of his banana and his side b. His mixup potential is very strong, and along with his faster dash speed, it is a lot easier for him to get a grab on us. Is it enough to make the matchup a -2? I don't think so. I don't really feel like any matchup is a -2 for Ness in this early stage of the game. All matchups feel evenish, and advantages and disadvantages feel small to me.

 

[ATH_]

Against Diddy I try to focus on mainly using NAir as a poke move and double jumping in the case they go for grabs. It's not the worst matchup, but it's still a bit tough.

 

[PKBeam]

I don't believe Diddy has the tools to counter Ness but it's not even either - i'd put at as one of our hardest -1's.

for reference, Diddy's Fair is frame 6 - not that much faster than ours (frame 8). Nair is even faster than it. Uair is ridiculous tho.

 

[Sir_Zedd]

A few thoughts,

SH N-airs are your best friend in this matchup, it can catch bananas, collide with monkey flip and generally keep the pressure going relatively safely (just space it properly). I also juggle with PKT1 whenever it's safe, the juggling usually swings the match around in my favour. Punishing recoveries is also essential.

Everything here seems to be covered already, but I recently played some friendlies and this stuff stuck in my head.

 

[PKBeam]

so.... uh, should we start another character?

 

[ilysm]

If so, I vote Sonic by virtue of him being (in my opinion) our flat-out worst as of right now.

 

[Earthbound360]

If so, I vote Sonic by virtue of him being (in my opinion) our flat-out worst as of right now.

I second that

 

[Noa.]

I'll write this one post on Didd before we move on.

I feel that the Diddy matchup is quite even.

In this matchup it's very important to spam short hop fairs and nairs. You really want to avoid shielding at all. Shielding is very dangerous in this matchup. Diddy has both his side b and normal grab. Do not shield often at all.

ON the other hand, its' very important to land grabs on him. Dthrow combos are very consistent and effective against him. Using fthrow to get him offstage for pk thunder juggles is crucial in this matchup. It's essential to land grabs, so focus heavily on that.

Pk fire is pretty difficult to land, but is actually a pretty good reward on Diddy. He isn't floaty so he can't jump out of it easily, Pk fires lead to grabs which are vital in this matchup. Of course on whiff Diddy can punish you greatly, but if you do land it it's quite good agaist him.

When using pk thunder against Diddy while he's recovering, make sure to place the path of the pk thunder in front of him. Make it impossible for him to side b without running into the pk thunder. If you ever force Diddy to recover low, it's essentially a free stock since Ness's pk thunder can interrupt and kill his barrel so easily.

When Diddy grabs you, you want to DI holding towards Diddy if you want to avoid the dthrow uair followup. So if you're on the left and diddy is to the right of you, then DI to the right. You will fly well past uair range, but you can still be susceptible to a bair or RAR fair.

Moves to watch out for:

Fair - his fair comes out fast, does a lot of damage, and can kill. This move is very dangerous.

Dtilt - Diddy's dtilt has decent range and speed. If he lands it he can sometimes combo it into an uair or grab.

uair - what can't this move do? Honestly it's a really stupid move.

fsmash - has decent speed for a smash. The second hit of it has a lot of knockback and a surprising amount of range. While it is punishable, it doesn't have that bad of a cooldown lag, so make sure you perform your punishment quickly.

 

[PKBeam]

It's funny how they nerf characters like Zelda but Diddy's Uair comes out faster than airdodge.
Also, if you're living really long they gonna want to Dsmash you.

 

[Noa.]

Diddy will most often kill you with a dthrow to uair, fair, or Bair. Then fsmash. Then just landing a good fair on you. Those are his most common KO moves. I've actually been hit by his usmash more than his dsmash. I see dsmash very rarely.

 

[Earthbound360]

Also, quoting Nakat, never just air dodge the inevitable uair follow up to dthrow. Try to slip your double jump in there too. Doing a lone air dodge is begging to get yourself hit by a delayed uair.

Fsmash and dash attack hop over PKF, this is nonsense.

 

[Noa.]

Yeah it can be very tricky to land pk fire on Diddy. But it is very rewarding, and he doesn't have the tools to get out of it like some other characters can.

 

[Yink]

Would you guys like to move on to a new MU? Sorry for my slowness. Apex is right around the corner, so we have Rosa and Diddy done. Who might you guys want to talk about before the event?

 

[PKBeam]

It's fine
Probably Sonic or Sheik. I'd say Sheik, IMO she's more of a problem than Sonic.

 

[Yink]

I agree. Sheik it is!

 

[PKBeam]

Sheik will be camping us. It's not easy approaching her and the Needles don't help (the grenades do though). Because Needles follow a similar trajectory to PKF, it's easier to approach from the air. Also, try not to get grabbed. Sheik's throws set up very well into her aerials. I'm pretty sure they're guaranteed on us so tricky DI is probably the best option if you get thrown.

Sheik is too fast for us, but thankfully her attacks don't have much disjoint. Nair, Fair and Bair are too fast for our aerials but if she spams SH Aerial **** then get her for it. She's also tall enough to hit with SH Fair. But don't make a habit of challenging her speed. Frame 2 Jab and Frame 3 Nair will see to that.

Offstage, Sheik's edgeguarding game is dangerous. Fair and Nair will be her main edgeguarding tools and you can die very early compared to how long you'd live onstage. When edgeguarding Sheik, don't get hit by Vanish or the Fish. Down-B can be beaten with Fair with the right timing. You can also heal 20% from Vanish.

Despite Sheik's speed, she kills almost as badly as she did in Brawl and IMO this is our one biggest advantage. Tipper Usmash can kill you just before 100 without rage. This is her ONE early kill move so DO NOT let yourself be caught by it. The extra 50% you can survive to by avoiding it will probably be one of the biggest factors in deciding the outcome of the match.
after 100, she has Vanish and later, her smashes and Bouncing Fish. Don't forget the Fish, it covers a long distance quickly and has respectable knockback.
Sheik, on the other hand, will die more easily and earlier from Bthrow and Ness' aerial killers, especially if you avoid Usmash and you're living up to 120 and past.

I would put down -2, but because we can kill Sheik much easier than vice versa, I'd say -1.

 

[Earthboundy]

I haven't played TOO many Sheiks but I'll give my 2 cents. Firstly, her down b can recover a lot of damage if you use PSI Magnet on it. Just be sure she isn't close enough to punish you for it. Her up special is hard to punish as she vanishes. Bouncing Fish is her biggest edge guarding technique, so look out for it. I'm not sure if it has priority of PK Thunder 2. If so, Be as careful as possible when using PK Thunder 2. Needles make being on the defensive difficult. Try as hard as you can perfect shielding them.

Her fair is another way she can edge guard you, or just attack you in the air. Be careful for this. Her up air is usually what she will use out of a down throw and it can kill you at higher percents. Her down air is easy to punish so you don't normally see it, but if you do, be sure to take advantage of its cool off time.

These have just been my experiences with Sheik. I think we have an advantage with Ness's more defensive play. For that, I'd give the match up +1.

 

[PKBeam]

I haven't played TOO many Sheiks but I'll give my 2 cents. Firstly, her down b can recover a lot of damage if you use PSI Magnet on it. Just be sure she isn't close enough to punish you for it.

You mean her SIde-B. Yeah it does heal a lot, but we can cancel the already small lag on Magnet.

Her up special is hard to punish as she vanishes. Bouncing Fish is her biggest edge guarding technique, so look out for it. I'm not sure if it has priority of PK Thunder 2. If so, Be as careful as possible when using PK Thunder 2. Needles make being on the defensive difficult. Try as hard as you can perfect shielding them.

PKT2 has invincibility frames on the first half, and Sheik has to space the Fish perfectly so she won't get hit while her legs are still up. The best outcome is that they trade, PKT2 does more damage than the Fish and it gives Ness another chance, while Sheik is in endlag.

Her fair is another way she can edge guard you, or just attack you in the air. Be careful for this. Her up air is usually what she will use out of a down throw and it can kill you at higher percents. Her down air is easy to punish so you don't normally see it, but if you do, be sure to take advantage of its cool off time.

This, basically.

 

[Noa.]

I haven't played TOO many Sheiks but I'll give my 2 cents. Firstly, her down b can recover a lot of damage if you use PSI Magnet on it. Just be sure she isn't close enough to punish you for it. Her up special is hard to punish as she vanishes. Bouncing Fish is her biggest edge guarding technique, so look out for it. I'm not sure if it has priority of PK Thunder 2. If so, Be as careful as possible when using PK Thunder 2. Needles make being on the defensive difficult. Try as hard as you can perfect shielding them.

Her fair is another way she can edge guard you, or just attack you in the air. Be careful for this. Her up air is usually what she will use out of a down throw and it can kill you at higher percents. Her down air is easy to punish so you don't normally see it, but if you do, be sure to take advantage of its cool off time.

These have just been my experiences with Sheik. I think we have an advantage with Ness's more defensive play. For that, I'd give the match up +1.

What defensive play and tools are you referring to? I find Ness's defensive game to be very poor and uninspiring.

 

[Pazx]

Ness's defensive tools are fair, nair and the best shieldgrab imaginable. Also, no competent Sheik uses the grenades so we can stop discussing that.

I think FD is a stage we should avoid against Sheik, I'd suggest Halberd but the low ceiling probably benefits her uair more than ours as hers is far easier to combo into. Not keen on KJ64 either, edgeguards galore. Sheik also seemingly does well on walkoff stages. Battlefield is probably my stage of choice in this matchup.

I think Ness's lack of good OoS options is apparent in this matchup, grabbing is a gamble against anybody with a quick jab or nair (Sheik has both), SHNair OoS isn't an option and staying in shield means you get grabbed. I don't mind trying to shield grab her landing but they should be spacing their aerials so you can't actually grab them. I don't think Sheik is particularly easy to edgeguard but her offstage game is where we can capitalise. We need to cover the ledge and go for juggles with PKT/uair. If we do it properly Sheik might try recovering higher which means we get a free grab/punish. Does anybody know how PKT and Bouncing Fish interact with each other?

 

[ItsMeBrandon]

Does anybody know how PKT and Bouncing Fish interact with each other?

I did a bit of testing, and found some interesting things. If PK Thunder's head connects with Sheik's kick, it will get cancelled out, and Sheik will keep going, but there's a bit of hitstun; otherwise, it will hit her. PKT's tail will stop her no matter what and with minimal knockback. Those are all the details I found.

 

[Noa.]

The tail on pk thunder has transcendent priority. It cannot interact with the hitboxes of anything in the game. It only interacts with hurtboxes.

 

[ATH_]

As someone who mains Ness and has plenty of experience with Sheik, here's my take (might be a tad bit short due to it being late, will add more later):
Sheik has potential to take advantage of our floaty selves, being able to get all of her combos even at high percents. She's light in weight, which makes it easy for us to kill her, but no so easy to rack up the damage. However, Sheik is likely to develop habits quicker than the Ness player in this matchup due to her having a smaller set of things that actually work most of the time. What I mean by this is that a decent amount of her options aren't good to use, while we have to experiment in order to approach and whatnot.

Sheik's grenade isn't that great against Ness, easy to get heals off of since it pulls you in, not to mention they'll be in stun, meaning it'll be harder for the Sheik to punish. Bouncing Fish isn't that great against Ness either, because he's short and has a high double jump, allowing him to just remove himself from a situation that he expects it, not to mention pivot PK Fire. Probably the biggest thing that Sheik has trouble with against Ness is actually killing him. Ness has some very good hitboxes with FAir and NAir, allowing him to have a quick escape before being killed by the majority of her kill moves. The main kill move to look out for is Up Smash, because we're floaty, she can capitalize on that.

For Ness:
Experiment Approaches, what's worked for me were DJ Cancelled PK Fires to set up a wall-like box that Sheik is stopped in, useful when you see they are just approaching with Grabs a lot, since it baits positioning but then catches them in a trap.
Mash Jump + Away out of any of her throw combos, then try to land with a falling NAir.
Don't put yourself in Up Smash range, stay away and mix up your directions when falling, keep in mind that our PK Magnet stops our momentum for a bit, which means you can use it to bait an Up Smash from her and procede to punish (I have successfully done this several times).
They'll be wanting those combos to rack up damage, because as said, they need every bit of % they can get in order to kill you.
Mix up Pivots with the Neutral stance, I wouldn't recommend approaching when they are, since it can accidentally set you into Up Smash's sweet spot.
Back throw kills very nicely, but make sure to pummel a lot to be certain of the kill!

Ness v. Sheik feels like an even matchup from my perspective, however, I will say that I MAY have a bias because I know how to use Ness and know what he can do, and the inverse with Sheik. I admit that maining both may make it a bit bias'd, but that's up to you to trust or not ^^

 

[Luco]

Pulling some stats from our new and shiny 'Bthrow kill %s thread', here's how early we can kill sheik using our most reliable kill move:

At the closest edge, Sheik should die no earlier than 88%, 122% at centre stage and 146% at the far side, without rage that is. With rage, these numbers get considerably lower, with a centre-stage Bthrow killing Sheik at 98% or so.

That means a lot in this MU especially because Sheik can have quite a lot of trouble killing us if we're playing safely. My advice here would be to wait until around 100% with her and then judge your own rage and go from there. Also consider the possibility that she won't DI to the best of her ability (though the percentages used here assume they are DI-ing correctly).

That means we have a serious edge in this MU. For Sheik to have to play trying to kill us before we get to 150 whilst dodging the bullet herself is going to put a massive amount of strain on them and we will be able to capitalise off that.

We certainly have to be careful of her on-stage combos and Fair, and vanish/upsmash are things we have to watch out for, but I'm beginning to think this MU is closer to even than most people thought at first glance (myself included ).

 

[Earthboundy]

I am having insane trouble with Yoshi. Please help me out.

 

[PKBeam]

^ goes in the DIfficult Matchups thread

 

[Earthbound360]

I've been sorta reserved on posting on this matchup since I really friggin hate it and I'm not sure if I have the right advice. I think this one is bad. Like, worse than Rosalina bad.

Where do I start with this one? The neutral sucks for us. All of her aerials are ridiculously fast. Her legs are long, so it's easy to get outranged, especially from below. And don't even get me started on those dam needles. They're so quick and cover good space. You'll be spending this whole match chasing her down, and with her mobility, it ain't easy. Try to get in close quickly and hurt her badly on every opportunity you get.

At the close range game, she STILL outranges us. That ftilt and utilt is difficult to get though. At the very least, Ness' really quick nair will get him out of multi tilt combos fairly well, but be careful: a smart Sheik will andticipate this and shieldgrab you when she KNOWS you can combo break. Sometimes, it might be safer to just get out of there. When you get grabbed, don't fall into the DI trap of a fast falled uair into a regrab.

Off stage is hell. Don't go out there. Seriously, she has every tool to edgeguard Ness possible. Treat her like Rosalina off stage and recover as safely as possible every time. There's like no safe range for a PKT2 recovery. At a distance, needles will screw you over. At a close range, Sheik is one of the best characters to eat PKT with, as she can drop under you and get behind Ness to eat it. Not all characters are nimble enough to do this, but Sheik is. So close range PKT2 isn't safe, long range PKT2 isn't safe... just stick to the double jumps. And that's not even taking into account bouncing fish. This is where we're most vulnerable in this matchup.

When we're edgeguarding her, it's still not easy. I wouldn't risk going too deep off stage lest you get the edgeguarding tables turned on you, and with her invulnerable vanish, PKT edgeguards aren't easy either. I don't know what to say here other than edgeguard cautiously. If you can get her to recover on stage however, that's good.

Vanish and grenades heal a ton, remember that if the opportunity presents itself. Odds are it won't very often though.

Obviously, Sheik's KO moves suck, and ours are the best in the game. This is our only leg up in this matchup I feel. Just keep an eye out for her very few finishers (usmash, vanish, and uair and fish at higher percentages), survive, and abuse that rage since Sheik's kind of light. Do NOT get above her unless you want to die to usmash at 90%, or uair at higher percents.

 

[platomaker]

Just discovered this thread and patiently read through everything. I don't want to reopen up all old conversations so I'll be brief:

• I know a good Rosalina, and he hates flat stages- Final D, omega, etc.

• Biggest threats from Diddy on stage are: Side B (you can roll past if you're feeling lucky) and his grab range (jab out).

• Sheik is a very dangerous threat. I know someone said "no competent sheik player uses the grenades", but a sheik player can use those grenades while grabbing a ledge for a free bomb. Since the blast does pull the victim a little it can interfere with recovery. My only advice is avoid Final D or any flat stages when playing against sheiks or sonic players for that matter. Seriously though, the grenade can go pretty far off stage to chase your recovery.

 

[PKBeam]

discussion's dead.
I think we should move on to Sonik.

 

[Ranias]

So, I didn't want to say much on Sheik, since I haven't fought a very good one yet, but I'm surprised no one mentioned the number one easiest way to avoid her kill moves.

Shield.

She can't convert a grab into a KO easily at high percents. I guess her best kill moves are Up Smash, Forward Smash, Up Air, and Bouncing Fish, right? None of those are able to be used well against a shield-happy opponent.

 

[Earthbound360]

You can shield to live against Sheik, but you sure as heck ain't accomplishing anything against her either by being in it, since nothing's really punishable on shield. Also, spot dodging bouncing fish is super free on Sheik, but good Sheiks tend to not just throw it out carelessly.

 

[Bartolon]

After playing alot with Mr.R for me this matchup seems favoured for Sheik.

This matchup feels very powershield dependent cause it's the only way to punish most of her moves, our fair also clashes with her fair and we'll only get 1% out of it, fair doesn't feel that potent in this matchup. Getting below her is the most important, once she's in the air she can reposition with bouncing fish but we have good tools to cover most of her options when below her. Needles are hard to deal with once you're getting higher percentage cause it makes landing very difficult, try to reposition with jump and get on a platform if possible.

I've thought alot about what ness should do in this matchup and I'm not sure if I have the biggest grasp of it yet but nair and uair seem like our best option arial wise, usmash can outspace certain arials from sheik but you'll mostly be using it Oos. Once offstage stay calm and keep your 2nd jump as long as possible. In situations you're next to each other, respect the options she has Oos, most of the time you'll want to get a grab, nair Oos is a good option but easily readable once you start using it too often, still trying out jab Oos to see if it's a legit option but not sure yet.

Edgeguarding mostly consists of using PKT and rack up as much dmg as possible, also been doing ledge trump into standing on stage dsmash to catch the recovery but you'll most likely catch her offguard only one time with it but it's an option nonetheless.

PK jump is also pretty good in this matchup for repositioning, and you can also do it after an arial, it's not bad to pickup for this matchup.


The stages that I would recommend are:

Town and city,BF,SV

Don't bring her to a flat stage cause you'll have more trouble with killing her and she has alot of room to play defensively.

Not much to add to this, EB360 also made some good points about the matchup.

 

[PKBeam]

our fair shouldn't be trading with hers unless her fair is really disjointed or something.

 

[Ranias]

You can shield to live against Sheik, but you sure as heck ain't accomplishing anything against her either by being in it, since nothing's really punishable on shield. Also, spot dodging bouncing fish is super free on Sheik, but good Sheiks tend to not just throw it out carelessly.

I just tried spot dodging Bouncing Fish. It's pretty good. I'll try to find Bouncing Fish patterns against every Sheik I play now.

The Sheik matchup doesn't seem that bad to me. Mostly because we have more opportunities to kill her than she has to kill us. I think it's an even matchup.

 

[platomaker]

I second the motion on moving onto Sonic. That guy gets in like nobody's business. The upsmash, backthrow, and follow-ups are a real pain too.

 

[Yink]

Shall we be moving on to Sonic then? Thoughts?