Ness Matchup Discussion (PRELIMINARY)

[Earthbound360]

Yush plzzz

 

[PKBeam]

yea
10sonik

 

[NorCal_DSS]

Quick thoughts on Sonic (will edit when I'm out of class)
-Match up is heavily reliant on punishing Sonic for his approaches
-Sonic players want us to be over aggressive. Force Sonic to approach instead of approaching him.
-It's a lot of reaction. Catch Sonic in his lag; when you do, go for the maximum punish. Sonic's weight makes him combo meat.
-PK Fire is no bueno if it isn't a hard read. He runs fast enough that he can punish us with a grab/upsmash/other moves after perfect shielding it.
-SH retreating fair is your best friend.
-Put him in the air; he's either going to airdodge, spring, or spring-->dair. React and punish accordingly. PK Thunder is a phenomenal tool in this situation.
-Don't go too deep offstage. Once you've thrown him off, keep the pressure on but retain stage control.

 

[Ranias]

I haven't fought Sonic in tournament yet, but I've picked up a few things. Sonic is able to dance outside of our range and punish our whiffs. Like NorCal_DSS said, we should try to get him to approach and punish him instead.

When Sonic is in Spin Dash:

• he is unable to grab. Shield is strong against this, but try to figure out a good follow-up. (read your opponent and punish)
• he is vulnerable to projectiles. You have to predict and aim really well to land one though, or risk being combo'd.
• he is able to jump. He can also jump while charging it up. Don't forget this.

Try to not get baited. Here's a few baits that I've fallen for:

• Sonic can dodge and punish a grab or dash attack with his Neutral B. Try to predict this happening and punish it with an aerial as it is charging, or punish it with a shield then an aerial.
• Above a certain height, Sonic can safely Down Air without any landing lag. Don't fall for trying to punish its landing. Instead, you can try hitting Sonic in the air from the side with PK Thunder or something.

Learn Sonic's aerial strings and air dodge accordingly. We probably don't want to hang around in the air with him too much.

If he goes off stage, it's probably safest just to harass with PK Thunder.

I think this matchup is either 0 or -1 for us. Sonic has alot of opportunities to punish any of Ness's moves, but Ness has projectiles and kill power.

 

[PKBeam]

Sonic's entire game is to wait for you to commit and punish you for it.
Ness doesn't have the mobility to keep up with him like that.
So don't throw out PKF mindlessly. In fact, don't throw it out at all.
Get in real close, where our speed is as good as his.

A typical Spin Dash -> aerial on shield is not safe. He is in the perfect position for a Bair if he does that when we're watching.
Up-B -> Dair is also unsafe and Sonic won't be using it much. If you think he's going to do it, walk away and tipper Fsmash him as he's coming down. Or you can shieldgrab it.
Never fall for Up-B -> Uair. As soon as he gets you up be ready to airdodge (-> Uair) or FF Nair.
Sonic can kill with Usmash, Fsmash and Bair. Don't let him get in and Usmash randomly.

 

[CHOMPY]

CALLING OUT ALL NESS PLAYERS!

We have a discussion, so if you guys have any input against the matchup, please click on the link below!

http://smashboards.com/threads/week-4-matchup-discussion-ness.390603/#post-18573646

 

[The PK Dragon]

ok here is my to cents on sonic

from what I've seen (aka 3ds for glory mode) sonic spams like no tomorrow so beating him is most likely all about punishing him

 

[JC10101]

I lost to two sonics in the last tournament I was in, and what I noticed is its almost impossible to get a PK fire in this match-up. I also find it very hard to punish sonic. He is just way too fast for Ness to handle.

 

[Link24a]

Sonic is pretty much a faster projectile-less Ness. I'd say sonic v Ness is 6:4 or 5.5:4.5. As both are moderately punishable and are good at punishing. Their ranges are almost equal too, with good combos and kill tools.


Dumb, unrelated For Glory tip: if he spin dashes at your shield and jumps as he hits it, jump out of shield asap and Uair. They'll get hit pretty often

 

[BlackPhantom]

Lemme spit some knowledge since i know alot about sonic. This matchup could be pretty even, depending on how the ness player plays. Ideally, you would want to play more cautiously, throwing out more disjointed hitboxes and shielding alot and avoiding laggy moves like pk fire. But you can sorta play a more punish game too, but only up close. Suprisingly, pk fire works wonders when used right. It stops spindash and sometimes can throw off the sonic by using it when he tries to retreat.

I played a good ness earlier and the way he used pk fire worked wonders in stuffing my approaches. So don't be afraid of using pk fire in this matchup, just be cautious while doing it.

I really want to get around to uploading the set so you guys can see for yourselves.

Edit: Plz guys don't base what you know about sonic on FG. Just don't.

 

[neomadgic]

I wanna comment on this matchup so bad, but unfortunately I don't really have much to add since I haven't played a decent sonic. The sonic that I usually train against is pretty new to the game, so he doesn't use spin dash that often.

One thing that I do know though, is we can trade with a lot of his attacks. Like our nair, and uair will trade with sonic's neutral b, so don't be afraid to challenge it.

 

[BlackPhantom]

If anyone of you play on the 3ds version with the tag Cal, hit me up.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Oddly enough in this matchup, U-air is probably your best friend. F-air isn't safe against Sonic, though it's still obviously a good spacing tool in the air. Sonic can punish the ending lag on it though, so you have to be careful. U-air is safer on shield and is amazing in the air, as it's going to beat out Sonic when below him. The keys to beating Sonic is really the same for most characters. Understand the weak spots in his moves. Spins aren't safe. D-air to the ground isn't safe, even when doing it high enough where the move has no end lag. You don't need to play overly campy, but you can't just go in, or else Sonic is going to have a field day. If you camp too hard, you're going to get grabbed all day. His D-throw is a good tech chase set up, but you can tech the landing to make it much harder for him to punish. Sonic's B-throw is one of the best kill throws in the game. Not as good as Ness', but it kills earlier than most kill throws and the animation helps get them closer to the edge of the stage before the throw comes out. U-throw can be followed up with spring to aerials at certain percents. U-air will kill off the top at later percents. Especially with rage. Speaking of, rage will also make Sonic's F-throw kill if done near the edge of stages. On the ground, Sonic has the advantage. Ness should probably try to spend most of this match spaced away in the air. If you're on the ground, you're eating spins, grabs and F-tilts. If you're directly above, you're eating U-airs which I'm pretty sure out range Ness' D-air. Your best option there is to airdodge instead and fast fall your own U-air. Ness' head is huge. Take advantage of it. Once Sonic is in the air, Ness is in control. Aerials and PK thunder do work. Unless you're getting PKT2 kills, most of your kills in this matchup are coming from U-air and B-throw. I can't really think of anything else to add. Ness' recovery feels much safer in this game, but you should still be wary of spring. I know it cuts the distance that you recover when hitting it during recovery. I assume it's half.

 

[BlackPhantom]

@ Phoenix_Dark Dude where have you been?

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

@ Phoenix_Dark Dude where have you been?

I'm not sure if I know you or not. My memory is awful. I don't post all that much, but I attempt to read others posts and update the Sonic video thread.

 

[NorCal_DSS]

I wanted to backtrack quickly to the Sheik match up. I played against the best Sheik on the West Coast (#5 on SoCal's PR, beat Esam, etc) last week and the videos just got uploaded. We played in Winner Semis and in Loser Finals. I think this will help a lot of people understand the match up and what our options against her are.
Winner Semis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PLU9LNnn8E

Loser Finals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLc9Tba_3vc

 

[Bowserdude]

If you can get a PKT2 in when he Spin Dashes, he'll be sent flying, but I wouldn't suggest doing this to often, as he'll probably hit you first if he's not too far away.

 

[Luco]

If you can get a PKT2 in when he Spin Dashes, he'll be sent flying, but I wouldn't suggest doing this to often, as he'll probably hit you first if he's not too far away.

I'm reasonably sure PKT1 will go through spin dash anyway, but PKT2 is an interesting idea in those weird cases where SOnic is sitting in downB playing the waiting game lel.

But doesn't he beat out the second half of PKT2 anyway with sideB/downB?

 

[Today]

So I when I was at Apex, I sat and played against a Sonic for a longgg time because honestly this match-up is horror for me.
Rosalina, Diddy, they're all okay but Sonic is completely the death of me.

Things I noticed and were suggested by some other players:
Don't use fair so much. It is too unsafe, reason is is because it leaves Ness vulnerable and Sonic can easily punish that. Ness approach game isn't as good which Sonic takes advantage of pretty well.

Spin-Dash is annoying because Sonic has 3 entire options out of it. He can jump, he can attack with it, or he can stop and grab you. It's basically playing rock-paper-scissors. Jabs can beat out spindash, but again be careful with this.

Your best bet is nairs and uairs. Nair is fast and can punish Sonic pretty well. If he tries to approach you do TONS of out of shield short-hop nairs. Uairs is also great because it covers a decent range, it's strong, and can definitely kill him.
I would definitely not suggest fairs and PK Fires, though. Like I mentioned, fairs leaves Ness Vulnerable and PK Fire does the exact same thing. There may be some instances where fairs are okay (off stage (but nair still is better in this situation), or when you got him in a combo (Low percentage if you get a nair you can fair after that). But just be really really careful!!

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

So I when I was at Apex, I sat and played against a Sonic for a longgg time because honestly this match-up is horror for me.
Rosalina, Diddy, they're all okay but Sonic is completely the death of me.

Things I noticed and were suggested by some other players:
Don't use fair so much. It is too unsafe, reason is is because it leaves Ness vulnerable and Sonic can easily punish that. Ness approach game isn't as good which Sonic takes advantage of pretty well.

Spin-Dash is annoying because Sonic has 3 entire options out of it. He can jump, he can attack with it, or he can stop and grab you. It's basically playing rock-paper-scissors. Jabs can beat out spindash, but again be careful with this.

Your best bet is nairs and uairs. Nair is fast and can punish Sonic pretty well. If he tries to approach you do TONS of out of shield short-hop nairs. Uairs is also great because it covers a decent range, it's strong, and can definitely kill him.
I would definitely not suggest fairs and PK Fires, though. Like I mentioned, fairs leaves Ness Vulnerable and PK Fire does the exact same thing. There may be some instances where fairs are okay (off stage (but nair still is better in this situation), or when you got him in a combo (Low percentage if you get a nair you can fair after that). But just be really really careful!!

Assuming you're the person in your picture, I'm pretty sure I played you at Apex in a MM and then some friendlies after. I agree with everything said here. Basically, Sonic wins on the ground. Ness wins in the air. Ness can kill earlier, but Sonic has more reliable options to kill probably. At least in this matchup, as it's hard to land a grab on Sonic. Uair is beyond amazing though. May be the second best uair in the game.

 

[Today]

Yes! Hi!
It was thanks to you and a few other Sonic players that I learned so much!!
I'm glad you agree too! I appreciate it!

 

[Deleted member]

Ness vs Link/T. Link.
Easy grab combos against them, decent approach, uses ness's range to keep link away
But thats where he struggles, they can projectile camp him, and PSI magnet only abosrbs energy projectiles.
I would say as ness go to delfino plaza, as its harder to projectile camp.
Over all its about an even matchup.

 

[Sombreblanco]

Edit: Disregard....asked question in more appropriate thread.

 

[Deleted member]

The Toon Link board is discussing the Ness match-up right now, so if anyone has anything to say on the match-up: http://smashboards.com/threads/tl-match-up-discussion-week-14-megaman-mk-g-w-ness.378737/
I really apologize if this isn't the place to post this, I looked around a ton and couldn't figure out where else to post about it.

 

[Bowserdude]

Man. Sonic's got everyone, matchup-wise.

 

[P.I.E.]

In the future, can we discuss greninja please?

 

[P.I.E.]

Ness vs Link/T. Link.
Easy grab combos against them, decent approach, uses ness's range to keep link away
But thats where he struggles, they can projectile camp him, and PSI magnet only abosrbs energy projectiles.
I would say as ness go to delfino plaza, as its harder to projectile camp.
Over all its about an even matchup.

Ness absorbs bombs bro

 

[Bowserdude]

And the bat can reflect projectiles, thoiugh it may be easier to reflect T. Link's arrows than Link's, seeing as how fast they move.

 

[Yink]

The Toon Link board is discussing the Ness match-up right now, so if anyone has anything to say on the match-up: http://smashboards.com/threads/tl-match-up-discussion-week-14-megaman-mk-g-w-ness.378737/
I really apologize if this isn't the place to post this, I looked around a ton and couldn't figure out where else to post about it.

It's perfectly fine to post this here, and I don't mind in the slightest.

If you guys think Sonic has been done we can move on, but if not, just let me know.

 

[Luco]

I'd be very happy to discuss Zero Suit. Anyone else interested? She'd be the top tier I have the most exp on.

 

[Earthbound360]

I still have some thoughts on Sonic I'm going to post, but I just haven't quite gotten around to it yet. I'll update this post when I do.

 

[Uffe]

Lemme spit some knowledge since i know alot about sonic. This matchup could be pretty even, depending on how the ness player plays. Ideally, you would want to play more cautiously, throwing out more disjointed hitboxes and shielding alot and avoiding laggy moves like pk fire. But you can sorta play a more punish game too, but only up close. Suprisingly, pk fire works wonders when used right. It stops spindash and sometimes can throw off the sonic by using it when he tries to retreat.

I played a good ness earlier and the way he used pk fire worked wonders in stuffing my approaches. So don't be afraid of using pk fire in this matchup, just be cautious while doing it.

I really want to get around to uploading the set so you guys can see for yourselves.

Edit: Plz guys don't base what you know about sonic on FG. Just don't.

I've had Sonic's feint their spin dashes just to see how I would react. If I blocked, they'd do their spin dash, break out of it and come in for a grab. I had been grabbed a few times before finally predicting their methods. It's better to block to avoid that speed and taking the hits, but sometimes blocking isn't good enough if your opponent figures you out just by forcing you to react.

 

[BlackPhantom]

I've had Sonic's feint their spin dashes just to see how I would react. If I blocked, they'd do their spin dash, break out of it and come in for a grab. I had been grabbed a few times before finally predicting their methods. It's better to block to avoid that speed and taking the hits, but sometimes blocking isn't good enough if your opponent figures you out just by forcing you to react.

I did that too, but I guess I wasn't very level-headed going in. Maybe I could have taken all three of those games I played with that ness

 

[Deleted member]

I'm okay with discussing Ness matchup against ZSS

 

[Bowserdude]

I'd also like a MU against Sheik, been having some troubles against good Sheik players.

 

[ilysm]

Sheik's already been covered, I believe.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To all Ness players, Rosalina is now analyzing Ness at the Rosalina Match-Up Analysis thread. Ness's discussion period will last until the end of 3/6.

 

[ShuckleBoard]

Hey guys kinda new here. I'd like it if we could discuss Luigi. He is a character who is popping up in more and more tourneys and will be an important matchup later on. he's waiting

 

[Bowserdude]

Hey guys kinda new here. I'd like it if we could discuss Luigi. He is a character who is popping up in more and more tourneys and will be an important matchup later on. he's waiting

One important thing to remember is to not absorb his fireballs until he's far enough away, otherwise the ending lag from PSI Magnet wil let him punish you.

 

[Bowserdude]

Also, a question. If you hit Luigi with fsmash when he's using Green Missile, will he fly the opposite direction, or just be hit like normal?