Ness Matchup Discussion (PRELIMINARY)

[LyonelNoale]

Can anyone help me with the Ness vs. Dr. Mario matchup? I haven't faced any online as Ness, but the level 9 CPU is giving me a LOT of difficulty...

Help?

 

[Funen1]

Can anyone help me with the Ness vs. Dr. Mario matchup? I haven't faced any online as Ness, but the level 9 CPU is giving me a LOT of difficulty...

Help?

I think this may be more because it's a Lvl 9 CPU rather than it being Dr. Mario, but unfortunately I don't have any Doc experience either, so I can't really provide anything substantial.

 

[S.P.A.D.]

I think I've fought... No I don't have any experience either. I guess a main method of damage is if he's a bit further away than his pills you can PK Thunder abuse him a bit, get a feel for how he evades.

 

[Kodystri]

Try avoid training with level 9 CPUs. No human can react as fast as they do.

Dr. Mario, basically Mario, but respect his Smashes more than Mario. Know that Dr. Mario can Up-B out of PK Fire. GIMP Dr. Mario at all costs. Just the basics.

 

[Katakiri]

Hey, all! The Meta Knight board is discussing our Ness MU this week. The discussion is always on-going so you're never too late to chime in! Any input would be appreciated! http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knight-match-up-discussion-8-ness.396871/

 

[ishaboi]

I don't know if we're still discussing sonic, and don't think I saw this mentioned, but I was watching some awestin videos of his ness v sonic and learned that his nair cancels sonics spin dash. I've been having a lot of time with sonics but once I learned that i saw myself doing much better against a particular sonic I had been having s lot of problems with

 

[Earthbound360]

Sonic still gets outprioritized by us. Like I said, dont fear attacking a spin dash. Fear the mindgames that come from charging it.

 

[Chaizord]

I definitely agree with @ Earthbound360 about Sonic being our worst MU. Rosalina might be able to gimp us easily, but Sonic has more tools to pressure Ness. I think that a Sonic that actually knows how to edgeguard a Ness is able to exploit our recovery easily. Sonic so fast that he can quickly go down there with a Fair or Bair. Sonic is also hard for Ness to deal with on the ground unless you can get him out of the spin dash with PK fire, a grab, or an attack (which is not the easiest thing to do). At the same time, without a doubt, Ness wins against Sonic in the air, and as soon as Ness gets a grab he can start to go ham with comboing. It's not unwinnnable, but it's definately harder for Ness. Also Sonic's speed makes a huge difference. I hope I could help with the MU explanation! Also if you think I'm wrong please tell me I want to hear your opinions! c: I was reading through and thought I would comment on it because we're still discussing Sonic, sorry if I'm a little too late :/.

 

[Yink]

I think we should discuss Fox, personally. Does anyone disagree with this statement?

 

[PKBeam]

i don't know how good fox is (I'm assuming something like mid high), but i think we should do the high tiers first.
like i'm thinking ZSS, Pika, Luigi and Yoshi.

although if anyone else agrees i'd be fine with fox.

 

[Luco]

I can contribute to ZSS the most easily out of all the high tiers. I would personally be inclined to give some input on her before I fall out of the meta completely but it's really up to you guys.

And @ PKBeam have you gone to your first tournament yet? =D

 

[PKBeam]

no.
i decided to order a mayflash adapter and i still haven't gotten it yet.
one day, though...

 

[Luco]

no.
i decided to order a mayflash adapter and i still haven't gotten it yet.
one day, though...

Awww man it's going to be really exciting when you get the chance to go. :D

Hopefully by the time I get back.

 

[yoshi8984]

I think we should discuss Fox, personally. Does anyone disagree with this statement?

I do know the Fox MU pretty well and hell it is my favorite MU lol. But I think some others are a bit more worthy of discussing atm.

I'd like to do Mega Man cause that MU is rather awkward for me. =P

 

[Ranias]

Hey all. I haven't posted for a while, took a break from competitive Smash for about 2 months. Trying to get my skill back for a chance to win a WiiU this Friday. :O

I think our hardest matchup that we have not discussed is probably Luigi. I'm down for discussion on anything though.

 

[Kodystri]

I say Ness vs Sonic is

Hey all. I haven't posted for a while, took a break from competitive Smash for about 2 months. Trying to get my skill back for a chance to win a WiiU this Friday. :O

I think our hardest matchup that we have not discussed is probably Luigi. I'm down for discussion on anything though.

I say Luigi vs Ness is about 50/50. Ness has many tools to keep Luigi back from punishing with grab. You really need to watch out from his insanely fast aerials that idk why its soo fast. Fireballs are ineffective because A. Ness can heal from it or B. Ness can Bat it. Ness, however, does suffer from getting edgeguarded hard from Luigi. However, if we can react in time, we can fairly easily gimp Luigi by using PK Thunder before he is able to side b due to his poor air mobility or we can staight up Fair. It is not a hard matchup once you learn how to deal with it.

Speaking of hardest MUs, it is probably Sonic as people in the smashboards commonly say.. I say the MU is 40/60 in Sonic's favor though.

Edit: And Welcome back, Ranias. I hope I get to see that Ness again in online tournaments and possibly locals if you attend? :o

 

[Earthbound360]

Luigi isn't that bad, it's just that like 80% of the community doesn't know how to fight him.

 

[Ranias]

I say Ness vs Sonic is



I say Luigi vs Ness is about 50/50. Ness has many tools to keep Luigi back from punishing with grab. You really need to watch out from his insanely fast aerials that idk why its soo fast. Fireballs are ineffective because A. Ness can heal from it or B. Ness can Bat it. Ness, however, does suffer from getting edgeguarded hard from Luigi. However, if we can react in time, we can fairly easily gimp Luigi by using PK Thunder before he is able to side b due to his poor air mobility or we can staight up Fair. It is not a hard matchup once you learn how to deal with it.

Speaking of hardest MUs, it is probably Sonic as people in the smashboards commonly say.. I say the MU is 40/60 in Sonic's favor though.

Edit: And Welcome back, Ranias. I hope I get to see that Ness again in online tournaments and possibly locals if you attend? :o

Sup Kodistri. I'm afraid of your Ness, lol. I don't go to much locals since I don't have a car at the moment, but I might go to more online tournaments in a few weeks (after finals).

I agree that Sonic is pretty tough. The Luigi matchup isn't that bad, probably about even, but I feel Luigi has alot of potential to be good against Ness in the right hands.

Luigi isn't that bad, it's just that like 80% of the community doesn't know how to fight him.

Probably a good reason to go over the matchup, right?

 

[AnchorTea]

I think we should discuss Fox, personally. Does anyone disagree with this statement?

Ness winning against a Fox...

Impossible.

 

[yoshi8984]

Luigi can be scary, but I found myself doing lots of rising Nairs and doing Bairs on his shield so I can shield pressure him and (often) prevent myself from getting grabbed lol. He is definitely someone to respect though - overcommit and you'll get juggled for days or KO'd lol. I'd probs say 50/50 there.

The thing that scared me the most was D-Throw > Cyclone at KO percents, and I found it more stupid than the hoo-ha lol.

==

Ness winning against a Fox... Impossible.

Fox is my favorite MU, and hell I've already provided an extensive write-up in the Fox boards for said MU lol. IMO it's slightly (emphasis on that) in Ness' favor. If we're discussing it I'll just copy paste it (and update anything I learned since I wrote it).

 

[Earthbound360]

Probably a good reason to go over the matchup, right?

Can't argue with that.

 

[Ranias]

Mewtwo seems pretty easy for Ness so far.

Mewtwo is light (2nd lightest in the game) and has a large hurtbox, so he is easy to combo and KO.

Mewtwo is vulnerable to juggling since he is floaty and is large.

Shadow Ball is nice to absorb if you can.

Confusion is kinda good against ground approaches, shields, and PK Fire, but Ness can try approaching with an aerial to avoid it. If you get caught in it, I think it's best to just jump away immediately.

 

[Luco]

I think now that we're about half a year into the meta-game, we should consider opening our MU discussions to both boards. The only reason I say this is because we're going quite slow generally due to inactivity - I think this would be solved by a fresh opinion and possibly debate. @ Yink would you mind if I invited the character board we were discussing over for MUs we do next? Seeing as Sonic was changed, we could invite the Sonic boards over now to discuss the MU with us before we move on, if peeps are okay with that?

I feel as if you can't avoid bias. I've already mentioned how the Rosaluma boards currently believe we're a 7:3 MU in their favour. I think we should balance the opinions out, and other peeps will do the same to us. If we were going faster I wouldn't mind running through the cast real quick just based on our own opinions, but I feel the time has come to note it's been too slow and we're half a year into the meta. I think we should really open these things up, because if we don't others are going to assume our MUs against them are probably much better (or worse in quite a few cases too) than they are which could affect how we're seen in tier placements (most non ness mains still believe Rosaluma is our worst MU and not Sonic, which has affected their opinion of us).

Yeah, I don't think I need to go too much more in depth about this right now. What do you guys think?

 

[Earthbound360]

I don't care for inviting others here honestly, but that's just me. I would like to establish our numbers before we throw their opinions into the equation.

As in, I'd like to get through all 50 characters, then run through them again with other people's opinions.

But that's just me. I'm more itching to just move on to another matchup in general. We've been on Sonic for ages.

 

[Luco]

I don't care for inviting others here honestly, but that's just me. I would like to establish our numbers before we throw their opinions into the equation.

As in, I'd like to get through all 50 characters, then run through them again with other people's opinions.

But that's just me. I'm more itching to just move on to another matchup in general. We've been on Sonic for ages.

I get the sentiment, it's just that it's literally taken us 5 months to get through four characters. I don't think we have time to get through all odd 52 of them now, and besides, we probably have a bias and so do they, so we might as well even things out early, yeah?

 

[Noa.]

I think we as a character board should make a matchup chart for Ness. We should only include top/high tier characters though. I don't want us to argue on our matchup ratio against link for example. But if we as a board could reach a consensus on how we feel about tournament relevant characters that could help direct our discussions.

And I feel like we should invite other character boards. That would help a lot to keep the discussion lively. It's good to invite the opinions of others.

I kind of want to do a write up summary of the characters we've discussed so far. It would help when new players come onto the boards to ask for advice. It would be nice to have lengthy write ups on Rosa, Sonic, Sheik, and Diddy. I can do the write ups when I'm done with school in a couple weeks.

I will say the thread has been moving incredibly slowly haha.

 

[Yink]

Honestly I'm so busy these days I do feel bad about not keeping up with this. I take the blame on that, since work and wedding planning are getting in the way of Smash.

Is there anyone who would like to start a new thread and we can go from there? I think the game has been out long enough now that we have some general ideas (even considering the 1.0.6 patch). @ Noa. you seem to want to do write-ups. If this is the case you're more than welcome to do that. I don't mind the MU thread being a community effort (in fact, I encourage it).

 

[Earthbound360]

I think we're moving slowly just because of Yink's absence (no offense, love ya). I think if someone like @ Noa. were to take over the thread, we could get through this much more smoothly and quickly.

 

[Noa.]

I wouldn't mind taking over it.

I'd probably make the matchup chart.

And then do the write ups for the matchups we've discussed so far.

And then start doing serial discussions.

I'd start this after this week. I have a lot of school work lol but it's all almost done.

 

[Luco]

Fair, but I think the thing is we burn out really quickly because people say what they have to say and.... That's about it. No-one really disputes our opinions that much, which means we kinda just settle on one side of the story and leave it at that, which I'm not sure I see a true purpose for.

EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to discredit you here, I'd love to hear what you have to say on it.

 

[Noa.]

Yeah I think it's good to invite other character boards.

 

[Yink]

I think we're moving slowly just because of Yink's absence (no offense, love ya). I think if someone like @ Noa. were to take over the thread, we could get through this much more smoothly and quickly.

Honestly, no offense taken since I just admitted I'm busy lol. I love you too EB360 .

@Noa , tell me when you do the new one (send me a PM please). That way I'll make sure to stick it and go out through the other boards and advertise that we're having discussions.

 

[AnchorTea]

Anything on Yoshi?

 

[Matt ~]

Might as well give my opinion on this..

I find Ness and Yoshi pretty similar because they're both very agile in the air (some of the best ariels in the game.) They're also different because Ness's bread and butter combos require a grab in most cases, while Yoshi doesn't rely on his grab for combos.

A lot of yoshi's approaches are in the air, like nair, bair, dair, and sometimes eggs. We'll probably be playing a little more defensive and go for punishes when they're nessacary.

Yoshi may have a good tool to use against us with those eggs, but we have pk fire and pk thunder, so we should use those a little more.

Try to put on as much pressure as possible on Yoshi so he doesn't overwhelme us with his ariels.

Also, we kill Yoshi with backthrow at the edge of the stage at around 97%. If we can force him to come to us, we could get a solid KO around 100%. c:

 

[Ranias]

Yoshi's Dair hurts so much. Try to not get caught in it.

The best way to contest Yoshi in the air is probably with Ness's Fair. Fairing alot is a safe tactic in general. Don't get too spammy though, or else he can just send an egg at you.

PK Thunder is good, but be careful for Yoshi's Down B (you can't hit him with PK Thunder out of it). If he is ground pounding recklessly, you can throw out a PK Fire where he lands (get just outside of the shockwave).

 

[PKBeam]

won't the tail hit him out of it or does he have armour during down-b?

also yoshis nair is legit good. his fair also gets kills sometimes so be careful what you do in the air.

 

[Kodystri]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2nm6cb/ness_vs_rosalina_does_rosalina_really_counter/

This is pretty old as I learned more things about the MU, but the MU is 42:58 to me as now

 

[Earthbound360]

won't the tail hit him out of it or does he have armour during down-b?

also yoshis nair is legit good. his fair also gets kills sometimes so be careful what you do in the air.

It does, but it's hard to get the head out of the way in time. If he hits the head you're screwed.

 

[Kodystri]

Yoshi's Dair hurts so much. Try to not get caught in it.

The best way to contest Yoshi in the air is probably with Ness's Fair. Fairing alot is a safe tactic in general. Don't get too spammy though, or else he can just send an egg at you.

PK Thunder is good, but be careful for Yoshi's Down B (you can't hit him with PK Thunder out of it). If he is ground pounding recklessly, you can throw out a PK Fire where he lands (get just outside of the shockwave).

You can hit Yoshi during Down B with the Tail of PK Thunder if a Yoshi likes to spam it.

 

[kirby509]

I don't know why, but I still have a lot of trouble with pacman and his freaky fruit and hydrant... I just can't seem to do anything to even get a hit on him... Another problem I am having is villager. He can camp you out really quickly and I don't know what to do if he uses Lloid and approaches at the same time.