Ness Matchup Discussion (PRELIMINARY)

[Yink]

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PRELIMINARY DISCUSSION
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Hello friends. This is the preliminary discussion for Ness' matchup information. I know what you're thinking..."But Yink...there's no tier list or anything yet" or "The game is so young, why are we talking about this already"? Well, this isn't an entirely serious matchup thread yet: It's a preliminary one.

This thread is for breaking down the basics of Ness' matchups as we've played them so far. Over time, the thread will be converted into a true matchup thread with a grid, graphics, and more. As for right now, we'll simply just use this as a place to ask general matchup questions or discuss Ness' strengths and weaknesses for particular matchups.

How does this work? (Guidelines)

1. Bring up a character for discussion
2. Post your discussion about Ness' strengths/weaknesses against said character
3. Discuss possible options for counterpicking (think stages)
4. Give your matchup ratio:

• -4: (close to) unwinnable
• -3: large disadvantage/hard countered
  
• -2: medium disadvantage
• -1: small disadvantage
• 0: even
• +1: small advantage
• +2: medium advantage
• +3: large advantage/hard counter
• +4: (close to) unloseable

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GENERAL INFORMATION
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• Discussions will last approximately one week at a time
• Post videos if you have them to prove your argument
• If frame data or any other data is available, use it for discussion
• Take stages into account (think about strengths/weaknesses)
• Try to ask for characters we haven't discussed already

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THE FIGHTERS
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Characters | Discussing/Discussed | Verdict
Bowser | |
Bowser Jr. | |
Captain Falcon | |
Charizard | |
Dark Pit | |
Diddy | |
Donkey Kong | |
Dr. Mario | |
Duck Hunt | |
Falco | |
Fox | |
Game & Watch | |
Ganondorf | |
Greninja | |
Ike | |
Jigglypuff | |
King Dedede | |
Kirby | |
Link | |
Little Mac | |
Lucario | |
Lucina | |
Luigi | |
Mario | |
Marth | |
Mega Man | |
Meta Knight | |
[Mii Fighter Brawler | |
Mii Fighter Gunner | |
Mii Fighter Sword | |
Ness | |
Olimar | |
Pac-Man | |
Palutena | |
Peach | |
Pikachu | |
Pit | |
ROB | |
Robin | |
Rosalina | |
Samus | |
Sheik | |
Shulk | |
Sonic | |
Toon Link | |
Villager | |
Wario | |
Wii Fit Trainer | |
Yoshi | |
Zelda | |
Zero Suit Samus | |

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​

That's pretty much it. Since this is preliminary and there's no tier list, we'll leave the choice up to what people ask for the most for a few months. For example, if you really have a lot of trouble with Rosalina and post to discuss about her and many others post for her too, we'll more than likely talk about her. The rules are pretty lax for right now. REMINDER: This is for discussion/debate. Do not be rude, give constructive and thoughtful answers.

 

[Yink]

DISCUSSION #1 - The Fault in Our Stars: Rosalina/Luma vs Ness

12/4/14​

 

[Tanark]

trouble with pit / pitoo duos.
can we discuss those 2 characters 'w'

dat shield mess my recovery

 

[Noa.]

So then will we start with like a general matchup discussion week? Or are we diving straight into a character? It's usually best to start with our bad matchups and the most common characters in tournament.

Right now the only character I know for sure is a bad matchup is Rosalina.

I suspect that all of the sword characters will be bad matchups for us as well. Maybe. It's too early to tell but the likes of Ike, Marth, Pit, Shulk etc may all become weaker matchups for us.

A lot of people seem to be having difficulty with Sheik. I don't think she's a bad matchup but maybe we could discuss her if people want.

Right now personally I'm most afraid of Sonic and Diddy. I don't necessarily think they're bad matchups, but they're both top tier characters with a lot of options and I'm not familiar with them yet.

 

[Yink]

As I stated, we'll tackle a character per week (or longer if we really have a lot to talk about). I'm leaving it open to you guys who we start with. Since we don't have any tiers or anything to work with, I do also suggest that we stick to MUs we find particularly difficult for now or those characters we see a lot.

We should still focus on one character at a time so we don't get too clustered. In the second post I'll do a tally of who we want to talk about (who people bring up) and whomever is mentioned most will be who we start with first. So far we've got: Pit, Dark Pit, Sonic, Diddy.

 

[Luco]

I'd be happy to start with Diddy or Rosaluma. Pit and Dark Pit I wouldn't mind discussing either, though come to think of it as an idea, if we're ever discussing a character and someone's having trouble with other characters, that can be discussed in the 'difficult match-ups' thread, or alternatively we can switch discussion to them after the current one is done.

 

[Yink]

I plan on leaving the "Difficult Matchups Thread" open for now, but over time I'll be closing it/merging it with this thread. For right now though, we need to really just focus on one character at a time that we see often and consider threatening. General questions about what you need to do against a character can be discussed in the other thread: This thread is for serious discussion.

EDIT: Actually I might just close it, because very general matchup questions should be done in the Ness Question and Answer thread.

 

[Ranias]

I agree that we should talk about the most difficult/common matchups first, but I don't want to leave anything out of discussion either.

I honestly haven't fought a good Diddy since the patch for some reason, so I wouldn't be able to contribute to that. I have fought good Sonics and Rosalinas though.

 

[Yink]

No worries. The other thread is open right now to general questions and the like.

So then, would you like me to put you down for Sonic/Rosalina?

 

[Ranias]

No worries. The other thread is open right now to general questions and the like.

So then, would you like me to put you down for Sonic/Rosalina?

Sure.

 

[Noa.]

I would feel most comfortable giving input on Rosalina myself. I know that matchup quite well. As well as the peach and mario matchup but those aren't too important really.

 

[PSIBoy]

No worries. The other thread is open right now to general questions and the like.

So then, would you like me to put you down for Sonic/Rosalina?

Why not? It should be a good test run at least, and at best give us advice on how to deal with them.

 

[Drew English]

I say Rosaluma. The Luma makes it difficult to grab Rosalina.

 

[Yink]

First person to get to 10 votes is who we talk about.

 

[Earthbound360]

I second (or third/fourth/whatever) Sonic. That guy is a threat.

 

[Meccs]

Sonic please. The speed is overwhelming- I need answers!

 

[L9999]

• -4: (close to) unwinnable Not yet.
• -3: large disadvantage/hard countered
• Can't Uair him, has D-air, Can't follow him off stage, has N-B, D-Air, F-Air, N-Air. Can't recover, Egg Toss and all the previous. Can't bat the eggs, can't gimp him with N-Air or Fair, he has super armor, can't fight him on the ground, PK Fire and PK thunder too laggy, tilts have barely any range, Yoyos are slow, and PK Flash and dash attack suck, and he has Dash attack, Eggs, aerials, Smashes and Side B. Once in the air Yoshi MURDERS Ness. Ness WILL NOT return to the stage alive. Has eggs, Uair, Nair, Dair, Bair, Fair, Up Tilt,Dash attack, and Up Smash. Can't do Fair approach cause Bair and Sex kick. Can't B throw kill early because he is VERY heavy.
• Luma walls PK Fire and negates PK Thunder camp/juggle with GP. Gimps PKT2 with said move. Unabsorbable projectiles, can't reach her without getting hit. Floaty so F-air/Up air combos don't work.
• 
  
• -2: medium disadvantage
• Any reason why she beats Ness in Melee is here.
• THE SWORD IS TOO DAMN BIG. Combine that with Buster F-Air wall ala Melee Marth and he already took 1 stock. Also Counter is unavoidable unless you have Level 9 AI reflexes.
• TOO FAST! Can't use PK Fire in peace, PK thunder barely hits, that Up Smash is to be feared, Homing Attack and Dash attack annoying. Rolls out of PK Fire without any effort.
• Every single thing about Sheik with Shadow Sneak and cheap Up B gimps added to the mix.
• Basically everything I said about Sonic and add tripping and Monkey Flip.

EDIT: Due to popular opinion I took out Falco, DHD and Lucario out of the list.

 

[Noa.]

Ness doesn't have that many bad matchups. Almost all of those are even. I would even say that duck hunt and lucario are in our favor. Slightly.

 

[L9999]

Ness doesn't have that many bad matchups. Almost all of those are even. I would even say that duck hunt and lucario are in our favor. Slightly.

Didn't you read the Yoshi section?

 

[Noa.]

• Can't Uair him, has D-air, Can't follow him off stage, has N-B, D-Air, F-Air, N-Air. Can't recover, Egg Toss and all the previous. Can't bat the eggs, can't gimp him with N-Air or Fair, he has super armor, can't fight him on the ground, PK Fire and PK thunder too laggy, tilts have barely any range, Yoyos are slow, and PK Flash and dash attack suck, and he has Dash attack, Eggs, aerials, Smashes and Side B. Once in the air Yoshi MURDERS Ness. Ness WILL NOT return to the stage alive. Has eggs, Uair, Nair, Dair, Bair, Fair, Up Tilt,Dash attack, and Up Smash. Can't do Fair approach cause Bair and Sex kick. Can't B throw kill because he is VERY heavy.

• While you can't uair juggle Yoshi as easily as other characters, but you can still land uair as a kill move. If Yoshi is near the stage he can't afford trying to dair you to beat your uair because if you bait it out he'll land with dair and it has massive landing lag.
• You can't follow him offstage but Ness is not typically the type to have to go offstage to edgeguard. You usually just use pk thunder as an edgeguard to wrack up damage or try to steal their second jump with the tail. You can't do that against Yoshi cause his double jump has battle armor so I'll give that to you.
• PK fire is a wonderful tool that punishes opponents for landing, and spot dodging. It has a lot of lag but you can only get punished for it if you use it carelessly. Pk thunder is very difficult to punish because you should just be hitting be with it. If you miss your pk thunder then you leave yourself open to get punished, but just land it and you'll be fine. It's quite easy to do because it's so fast.
• Yoshi's dash attack can be punished with a nair or bair OoS. You can shield grab Yoshi's side B.
• Ness does not get murdered by Yoshi in the air. The combination of our great air speed and aerial acceleration makes it difficult to juggle us. Yoshi has great air speed but he cannot change directions as fast as we can. Our fair beats his bair. Our fair is dijointed, his is not. Fair beats nair as well because his nair is not disjointed.
• Yoshi is heavy but that does not make him immune to bthrow lol. It just kills slightly later than usual is all.

I mean I don't think we beat Yoshi or anything. It strikes me as a very even matchup. I've played the matchup a lot. I've met a lot of Yoshis on for glory. One of the friends in my crew mains Yoshi. I've been playing him in that matchup for the past two months, ever since the 3ds version was released. In tournament I've played against like three or four different Yoshis. It's an even matchup. Yoshi has a lot of potent tools, but so does Ness.

 

[PKBeam]

• -3: large disadvantage/hard countered
• PSI Magnet gimp anyone?

that doesn't make sense.

 

[Luco]

that doesn't make sense.

He's making a joke on that one. ^_^

I think most of the characters you've put there aren't negative MUs at all and some of them (like Lucario) are even in our favour; but alas I feel we digress and should get back on topic of voting on who we want to discuss specifically.

 

[Tikao]

i would vote for shulk, because i can actually say something about that MU

 

[Ranias]

This is the problem with not focusing on one at a time. I disagree with alot of what was said in L9999's post, but if I bring it all up then this thread will get too hectic.

 

[Yink]

I'll give this until tonight, and then we'll begin discussion (since I have to go on vacation soon). Whoever has the most will be spoken of first (even if we don't get to 10.)

 

[Pazx]

+1 for diddy as leading up to apex almost all the top professionals will be focusing either on playing as diddy or against him (and while i believe the rosaluma matchup is important to be discussed diddy should be looked at second as he's probably more common than sonic etc)

 

[Heropon_Riki]

I'd also say Diddy. Rosalina isn't that bad, someone on reddit made an amazing guide to the Ness/Rosalina MU. I don't have the link, but if anyone does tat'd be much appriciated.

 

[Meccs]

I'd also say Diddy. Rosalina isn't that bad, someone on reddit made an amazing guide to the Ness/Rosalina MU. I don't have the link, but if anyone does tat'd be much appriciated.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2nm6cb/ness_vs_rosalina_does_rosalina_really_counter/

 

[Noa.]

Wow that was a very useful guide. I disagree with a couple things here and there but that was great. We should not lose track of that link it's quite good. I think the poster is the ness from those videos conda posted. It seems he or she does not speak English as a first language.

 

[L9999]

So Diddy is our greatest thread?

 

[Noa.]

Diddy doesn't necessarily beat us. But he's by far the most popular character in tournament, and is perceived as the best character right now.

 

[Earthbound360]

I'd say Diddy is pretty bad. Worst? Not sure about that.

 

[Yink]

Alright. Our first is going to be Rosalina. After her, we will do Diddy. Remember to give as much info as you can and provide evidence of good play against her.

DISCUSSION STARTS NOW!

 

[EarthBoundEnigma]

Does anyone know the most efficient way to take out Luma? PK Fire can do it, but is there a specific anti-luma combo that reaches the 30HP fastest?

Chain PK Fire works because Lumas can't DI.

 

[PSIBoy]

Rosalina... Frankly, I don't have a lot of experience in this matchup, but...

The biggest problem is her gimp of our recovery. If we could play a good mind game, then we might have a chance. If not, kiss your stock good-bye. Her aerials aren't bad either. I think our f-air is still really good, but don't expect to constantly win with f-air since many of her aerial attacks are disjointed. She'll mor often than not win in the air. Her down-b also severely limits PKT juggling and gimping. At least f-air is really good on the grounded Rosalina. Dash attack could be a problem, but if we predict her final position right, then a grab punish would probably work out. Her d-smash is good for punishing, but all her smashes can be shield-grabbed out of. Luma can be a pain, but jump over it or PK Fire it do death if she sends it out. If both Luma and Rosalina connect with f-smash... It's gonna hurt. Other than that, she's really light, so b-throw should kill really early. I'd say -3 vs Rosalina.

Edit: Upon viewing posts, perhaps the matchup isn't as bad as I thought. I'd just say -2 now.

 

[Noa.]

Rosalina: Slight Disadvantage

In this matchup both characters can approach each other fairly well without much trouble. This matchup can go either way and it's very possible to outplay her. You just have a smaller margin of error compared to her. It's important not to **** up or she'll get a free gimp off you. Knowing when and how to press your advantage is very important for succeeding in the Rosalina matchup.

Neutral:

In neutral I feel that Rosalina has a slight advantage. Approaching her successfully just requires you to pick the right option. If she shields that's a free dash grab. Luma obviously can't attack while she's shielding so her only good option in response is to spotdodge. If you predict a spotdodge or a roll, dash attack is the move you want to use to punish. If Rosalina tries to jab or dtilt you have multiple options. You can space dash attack so that it only knocks luma up, or you can try to use the disjointed hitboxes of dash attack to hit Rosalina while she's trying to attack. This requires good spacing on your part. Another good option if she's trying to jab or dtilt is to short hop over Her hitboxes and nair her. If Luma is alive you have to commit to the short hop earlier, therefore making it riskier. Short hop Nair also beats her dsmash if you jump over the hit box. Her dsmash and fsmash are beat by running up and shielding them, then shield grabbing or Nair oos for the punish. If she tries to grab you, dash attack. If she tried to short hop nair your approach then you run under her and do a rising fair or nair to punish. That covers most of her defensive options.

Her offensive options are much the same with a couple additions. Dash grab is beat with our jab or short hop nair. Luma shot can just be shielded or reflected with our fsmash. If luma is shot and goes past you, now is your time to approach Rosalina. If luma is shot and lands before you, you can pk fire luma to death. You have to space it carefully though to make sure that she didn't interrupt you with her starbits. Rosalina's other approach is dash attack. Now if you shield dash attack you may be able to shield grab, nair, or Bair oos. It depends on the spacing of her dash attack. It has relatively low end lag on it so you have to make sure to do your punish very quickly or she will shield in time. This matchup in general requires your mechanics to be on point cause Rosalina has pretty small windows of opportunity to punish her. But you have to abuse them. If she approached with sh you can beat it by running underneath her and nairing or fairing. To beat her nair you have to run ahead of time. Her move can be beat in the startup of it but the latter part of it is very very difficult to punish. Pivot pk fire is not very useful in this matchup. Only use it if you predict her to do a spotdodge, roll, or if she lands in front of you.

I'll post more later.

 

[L9999]

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2nm6cb/ness_vs_rosalina_does_rosalina_really_counter/

An article posted earlier in the thread. So Rosalina is not that unbeatable. But the PKT gimp, Luma being a grab shield, and the disjointed hitboxes do hurt.

 

[ilysm]

I feel like this thread should be stickied (pinned? I'm not sure what you call it here. Stuck to the top of the Ness boards). It's definitely an important thread for any aspiring Ness main.

 

[Luco]

is a weird match-up that feels somewhat worse than it is. When Rosalina has momentum or is in advantage we have a difficult time resetting to neutral and we can also find it difficult to go from neutral to advantage (if we try to work into a combo using grab, Luma can potentially hit us out of it). That said, the match-up is actually not that bad. PK Fire is an amazing wall if it hits Luma, not only doing damage to it but making it incapable of really doing anything to you while it's stuck in the flame pillar. This means a lot, because not only do you now have a wall of hitboxes up in front of you, luma is temporarily useless to Rosalina and this a good chance to push the attack, SH Fair and Nair work out here pretty well. Rosalina certainly isn't helpless without Luma, but once they're separated we have the advantage because we can get in or space as we need and Rosalina can't do too much about it.

Off-stage is certainly a bad position to be in this match-up, and if you want to recover with upB you have to be far out from the stage so Rosalina doesn't reach you. Recovering low won't work unless Rosalina screws up (plausable; but I wouldn't gamble on it). However, PKT isn't entirely useless in this MU. Onstage, it's a good mix-up in neutral, so keep that in mind. Luma shot can obviously be reflected on reaction if you're a little over half the stage away, though if not you can try to approach Rosalina (BE CAREFUL, air approaches here mean you'll need to space yourself well to avoid a punish when you try to approach).

On the other hand, when Rosalina is offstage, we can actually do stuff, and this is where we need to improve the most in the MU. Nair and Fair are godlike for dealing with her recovery which literally deals no damage. If she's going low to recover, just position yourself between her and the ledge and Nair as needed. If she's recovering high, try to punish her, though this may not always be guaranteed - if she's going so far you don't think you can reach her, use PKT1 instead to damage her.

Most of the Mu has already been covered by other people; but I think this is a match-up we originally freaked out about when we probably shouldn't. If you're dedicated, you shouldn't even have to pick up a secondary against her. I think this MU is a -1, potentially a difficult -1 but a -1 none-the-less... and for that matter i'm not sure if we actually have a MU in this game that's worse than -1.

So tl;dr, my thoughts on this MU is +1/-1 's favour.

 

[PKBeam]

I do not have much experience with a good rosalina but i don't think it should be that hard for us.

i have no idea of the exact timing for this, but if rosalina doesn't start the pull until after your thunder is already out, PKT's hitbox is still active while being pulled. because of the long tail, if rosalina is even near you she'll hit you with your own thunder, giving you a second chance and possibly a little vertical boost for about 10%, maybe. so if you're offstage and you're screwed, you can try to trick her into doing her down-B late enough so that it hits you.

rosalina's kill moves aren't *that* good. if you're smart you can live past 100 unless you got gimped.
some of her aerials can be pretty slow. if she does a FH Fair she's vulnerable for pretty much the rest of her airtime. same with SH Bair. be careful in trying to punish her Nair bc the luma does two short jabs - one in front at the start and behind her at the end. her Fair can meteor smash you. i think but it's very rare and not easy to do. it might be from the Luma.

i kinda agree with -1. maybe -2.