Ness Matchup Discussion (PRELIMINARY)

[PKBeam]

i always thought it was

50:50 = 0 = even
45:55 = -1 = slight disadv.
40:60 = -2 = med. disadv.
35:65 = between medium and large disadv.
30:70 = -3 = large disadv.
anything worse = -4

if you really wanna get precise the smallest advantage is probably 51:49.
it's just easier to stick to whole numbers imo. ratios are very precise and it's easier to say -2 than 40:60 or 35:65

 

[Earthbound360]

Pretty much that. And of course, I mean realistic advantage lol. Going to 49:51 is just silly XD

Basically, I think it's a slight disadvantage, and I was simply under the impression that other people thought similarly.

 

[PKBeam]

"Going to 49:59 is just silly XD

yes because 49 + 59 = 108?

 

[Earthbound360]

I have no idea what you're talking about!

 

[Luco]

Well to be honest I think it's somewhere between 'slight disadvantage' and 'medium', that's why it's hard for me and why I would be okay with either. Meahh.

I saw nothing! :3

 

[PSIBoy]

I'd call it -2 too.

 

[Noa.]

In my mind -1 can go either way. If a matchup were -1 I feel like some people would argue for it to be even.

Idk I feel like between two equally skilled players, it's rate for a player to win a best of 3 against a -2 matchup. But if you are better than them you should be able to win solidly even against a -2. -1s can go either way between teo equally skilled players. That's what the numbers mean to me anyways. I'm sure the meaning is different for everyone.

I still feel that Rosalina is our worst matchup. It's why I'm hesitant to say it's -1. But I think -1 or -2 is fine lol.

 

[Earthbound360]

Seriously? Worse than Sheik and Sonic? O_o

 

[Noa.]

Sometimes I feel like we almost best sheik +1 cause of how awful she is at killing, and if she makes the tiniest mistake she can die easily to bthrow or uair. I mean I think sheik is even.

And sonic I've played against a lot of sonics and lost to all of them. They were all better than me though. I don't think the matchup is bad though. It's a lot easier if you approach than if you let him approach.

 

[Earthbound360]

She doesn't have to kill you kill you. She's so good at gimping with her fast fall speed and needles. People who REALLY know how to eat PKT will drop UNDER Ness and eat it where PKT would hit his feet. Sheik's speed allows her to do this pretty easily. And if you're at an angle in which she can't do this, you're most likely in range for needle gimps.

Sonic has an even easier time gimping Ness... and has debatably better kill moves than Sheik.

 

[Noa.]

I will agree that Sheik is really potent at gimping ness but not in the way you describe. If you're using pk thunder and your opponent is in the path of it you can just pk thunder in the opposite direction and avoid them. If sheik tries to intercept the pk thunder right where you're trying to make contact, that is very very dangerous for her lol. And you don't have to worry about the needles killing pk thunder if you recover low.

Sheik's so mobile though that she can repeatedly bair and fair us while we try to use pkt2 to recover. She can keep using it until we die or get sent too far to make it back. She's very good at punishing us if we have to use pkt2 to recover. But recovering with your double jump is a fine safe option. Without a hard read it's difficult for her to force us to use pkt2 to recover. She's very potent at edge guarding us, but we still kill her more easily with uair and bthrow than she kills us by gimping.

And if you recover close the ledge sonic gimping us with the spring is not that much of a danger.

I mean Ness's recovery in general is very susceptible if he's forced to use pkt2. Like half the cast have great tools that can gimp him if he tries to rely heavily on pkt2 to recovery. Thankfully he has an amazing double jump, aerial speed, and aerials which can let him recover in most cases without using pkt2 unless the opponent gets a hard read.

I would say the best character in the game at gimping Ness when he uses pkt2 is Rosalina. The margin of error on her gravitational pull is so generous. It comes out quickly and has a huge hitbox. She's much better at punishing us for using pkt2 than either sheik or sonic. And I think she's harder to deal with on stage as well.

 

[Earthbound360]

I'm not trying to denounce your knowledge of the Sheik matchup or anything, but I take it you haven't played a Sheik that REALLY has the "eat the thunder" gimmick down. It's different than what you're suggesting. This is supposing you've already made that "first turn" which commits you to going in a single direction (meaning you cannot use it in the opposite direction as you say). They're not putting themselves in a position to get hit by PKT2 either, they're putting themselves behind you by traveling under you, so they either take the thunder or dont make it in time to get hit by anything. PKT2 will be travelling in the opposite direction, towards the stage. I'm not talking about getting over Ness and eating it when it comes out. That's what gets people killed by PKT2.

And Rosalina easily has the best gimp on Ness. Villager is probably second IMO since pocket's range is massive. But I also think you've underestimating how hard of a time Ness has dealing with opponents who outspeed him by a lot. It's impossible to catch and grab these types, and Ness' short range doesn't help with dealing with their stick and move gameplay. And Sheik forces Ness to approach, which is painful considering how fast she is.

 

[PSIBoy]

I'd say our main advantage vs Shiek is our grab game. If we get that d-throw to 2 or 3 fairs early on, then we have a bit of a lead to work with. Shiek's main weaknesses is her lack of reliable onstage KO moves and her light weight. Not entirely sure about air-air combat, but I'm pretty sure we have an edge there too. Long range goes to needles. Logically, she forces us to approach + her high speed = ...well you're going to have a hard time, like Earthbound360 said.

 

[Noa.]

Ah ok I had misinterpreted what you had said earlier. I thought you had meant that she was trying to intercept it directly below us, not that she was travelling under us to go to the other side. Ok yeah that is a very effective way to edge guard ness. It typically only happens when you're close enough to the stage so that she can reach you in time, and too far from the stage to just autosnap the ledge.

I will say though that when Sheik is using her needles that's a big commitment for her. She can charge them, shoot them, shield, and roll. She can't cancel her needles into a dash or a jab so while she forces us to approach her she has very limited options and cannot use her great mobility.

And I wouldn't say that Ness intrinsically loses to characters that have great mobility. Falcon, Mac, Fox, ZSS, and Greninja all run faster than Sheik and I think all of those matchups are even or in our favor. Ness is the 36th fastest character, so many people are much faster than him. He has great tools to keep up though with his fair and dash attack having huge disjointed hitboxes, as well as the speed and power of nair and the stupid reward off his grab. I don't think there's a strong correlation between run speed and our matchup spread.

 

[R e d X]

Rosa defs has the easist time gimping Ness, agreed. Shiek and Sonic are both difficult (though I feel like a lot of the time people aren't really sure what to do in the MU, which is a big problem), but I still feel like Rosa is Ness' worst overall, can't really think of one I'd put above it

 

[Earthbound360]

I don't think needles are as big of a commitment as you're making it out to be. I mean, there's not a lot of danger in just stopping the charge. It's also annoying when she just constantly shoots one, forcing us to stop and shield repeatedly to get her (slowing us down even MORE) or jumping over them (which is painfully predictable). Yeah she can't dash or jab out of them, but what character with a chargeable move can?

I didn't mean that actually. Just because he runs slower doesn't mean he loses. But when he's severely outsped, it's a problem that stacks up with other things. I don't mind Mac because he's JUST faster, but Sheik has gimping, zoning, and range on top of that to deal with Ness. Mac really just has power, so I'm not too worried about him (plus our fthrow is hilarious in this matchup). Also by speed, I don't strictly mean run speed either. A lot of Sheik's aerials just come out faster than ours. I'm talking about speed as the whole package here.

 

[Noa.]

I don't think needles are as big of a commitment as you're making it out to be. I mean, there's not a lot of danger in just stopping the charge. It's also annoying when she just constantly shoots one, forcing us to stop and shield repeatedly to get her (slowing us down even MORE) or jumping over them (which is painfully predictable). Yeah she can't dash or jab out of them, but what character with a chargeable move can?

I didn't mean that actually. Just because he runs slower doesn't mean he loses. But when he's severely outsped, it's a problem that stacks up with other things. I don't mind Mac because he's JUST faster, but Sheik has gimping, zoning, and range on top of that to deal with Ness. Mac really just has power, so I'm not too worried about him (plus our fthrow is hilarious in this matchup). Also by speed, I don't strictly mean run speed either. A lot of Sheik's aerials just come out faster than ours. I'm talking about speed as the whole package here.

Reducing yourself to four options is a very bit commitment. It's very easy to predict what your opponent is going to do when they have so few options. Obviously needles are very effective and a great projectile, but they do come at a cost.

But I also think you've underestimating how hard of a time Ness has dealing with opponents who outspeed him by a lot. It's impossible to catch and grab these types, and Ness' short range doesn't help with dealing with their stick and move gameplay.

It's these words here that make it sound like you think Ness has a real problem with characters that are incredibly fast. You make it sound like an inherent weakness we have, like the inherent weakness we have to people with large disjointed hitboxes that are not slow. Ness has a problem with that and there is a clear pattern there. Ness might have problems with Sheik and Sonic due to how fast they are, but two characters do not make a pattern. I don't think Ness has a problem with this class of fast rushdown characters. Just these two in particular. And I still think they're even matchups lol.

 

[PKBeam]

I feel like the combination of fast speed and other good tools are what makes it really hard for us. Probably not either one of them alone, but both of them combined.

 

[Earthbound360]

Okay well then pardon my poor conveyance of my intended message.

I feel like the combination of fast speed and other good tools are what makes it really hard for us. Probably not either one of them alone, but both of them combined.

This is what I meant in the end. Speed alone doesn't make it a bad matchup, but it's a huge contributing factor IMO to a bad one.

Real quick though, might I ask what you believe are Ness' 3 worst matchups?

 

[PKBeam]

I really haven't played a good portion of the cast to know. But from what I've played, Sheik, Mega Man and Sonic.

 

[Earthbound360]

Oh lol I meant to direct that at Draco, but there's no harm in hearing your thougths either.

But Megaman? Is he that hard for you?

 

[Luco]

We should get back on topic and suggest characters for the next MU discussion guys.

But something to mention, I think we go even with sheik or only lose slightly now post-patch. I don't know what they did to her but it feels like we can trade with her aerials now and that's usually in our favour. Also we kill way earlier.

I agree that our problem doesn't come from fast characters. Sonic and Sheik are annoying but you can deal with them (i've 2-stocked a good sheik player in tournament), but I agree that they're not the character archetype that we have trouble with. Our aerials are too good for them to be a problem lol. :3

 

[Noa.]

I find it very fun to talk to you earthbound360. I feel like we both understand the game a lot but value and interpret the information we see in very different ways. It's very interesting lol.

And as for our worst matchups. Hmmm

Worst by far is Rosalina. It's the only that sticks out to me as a very noticeable disadvantage and will probably never be even in the future. But who knows.

These are matchups I think are even right now but maybe as the meta develops and I play more against these characters, I see the potential for them to become bad matchups: Both pits, diddy, Ike, Jiggs, Link, Marth, olimar, sheik, shulk, sonic, Yoshi.

Again I think those are all probably even matchups, but I could see why people would think that they're not even, or I could see them becoming bad matchups as the game develops.

Picking a second and third worst matchup is hard for me from that list. I just don't feel like any of those characters particularly stand out to me as being really bad for Ness. Rosalina is a clear first for me but the others? Meh I need to play the game more. It's really a cop out answer but idk.

And I messaged Yink with which matchup I want to discuss. I'm sure most of you have done the same. I think this talk has been good though. It's provided some interesting opinions.

And I think megaman is not a difficult matchup for us at all lol.

 

[PKBeam]

Oh lol I meant to direct that at Draco, but there's no harm in hearing your thougths either.

But Megaman? Is he that hard for you?

I said it was from my experience :| i had trouble approaching him. but now i think i can deal with him alright.

 

[Luco]

Megaman makes you have to approach from the air (lemons too stronk, and if you even think about magnet then he throws a metal blade at you), so ya have limited options and if he just plays a keep-away game he can force the game to be excruciatingly slow, him giving you lemons and every once in a while you get a Bair or a string on him. Dunno what it means, but I H-A-T-E the MU lel.

I don't think it's our hardest though, not even near, I think it's prolly a -1 our favour but it feels so freakin awful haha XD

I feel off topic haha, I suppose it'll be this way until we get a consensus from @ Yink

 

[Noa.]

Meh if we're talking about matchups we're on topic if the thread is not assigned to a specific matchup I feel.

 

[PSIBoy]

Meh if we're talking about matchups we're on topic if the thread is not assigned to a specific matchup I feel.

Not currently at least.

I find it very fun to talk to you earthbound360. I feel like we both understand the game a lot but value and interpret the information we see in very different ways. It's very interesting lol.

And as for our worst matchups. Hmmm

Worst by far is Rosalina. It's the only that sticks out to me as a very noticeable disadvantage and will probably never be even in the future. But who knows.

These are matchups I think are even right now but maybe as the meta develops and I play more against these characters, I see the potential for them to become bad matchups: Both pits, diddy, Ike, Jiggs, Link, Marth, olimar, sheik, shulk, sonic, Yoshi.

Again I think those are all probably even matchups, but I could see why people would think that they're not even, or I could see them becoming bad matchups as the game develops.

Picking a second and third worst matchup is hard for me from that list. I just don't feel like any of those characters particularly stand out to me as being really bad for Ness. Rosalina is a clear first for me but the others? Meh I need to play the game more. It's really a cop out answer but idk.

And I messaged Yink with which matchup I want to discuss. I'm sure most of you have done the same. I think this talk has been good though. It's provided some interesting opinions.

And I think megaman is not a difficult matchup for us at all lol.

Hate going up against swordsmen still. It's improved since Brawl, but struggle against their range at times, as well as character-specific things too. Never went up against a good Rosalina, so hard to say there.

Megaman makes you have to approach from the air (lemons too stronk, and if you even think about magnet then he throws a metal blade at you), so ya have limited options and if he just plays a keep-away game he can force the game to be excruciatingly slow, him giving you lemons and every once in a while you get a Bair or a string on him. Dunno what it means, but I H-A-T-E the MU lel.

I don't think it's our hardest though, not even near, I think it's prolly a -1 our favour but it feels so freakin awful haha XD

I feel off topic haha, I suppose it'll be this way until we get a consensus from @ Yink

Yeah, a good Mega Man would generally stay away from f-smash. That way their other projectiles won't be absorbed or reflected for great harm. But defiantly not the worst.

 

[Earthbound360]

I mean, we're done with the matchup discussion. This is just free matchup chatting during the down time. I don't see any harm in that.

Interesting to see people's thoughts though. Draco, you think Olimar is bad (or as close to bad as it gets for you)? What makes that troublesome for you? I honestly have no opinion because I haven't played a single Olimar.

PKBeam, there's nothing wrong with disliking Megaman. I don't think he's a great matchup myself (his fair is HUGE, and lemons are dam annoying), I was just curious.

IMO Ness' worst matchups are probably Sonic, Diddy, then maybe Sheik or Rosalina. Call me crazy, but I kinda like fighting Rosalina. Ness can just exploit Luma so hard lol.

We could work on getting a consensus vote on our next discussion. In which case, I'd recommend Sonic because I hate that hedgehog.

 

[Noa.]

Now I'm not saying that Oli is a bad matchup for us, but at the last tournament I went to I played against a good Olimar in friendlies and had a very difficult time. Out of six matches or so I only won one. Now this was the first and only time I'd played against Oli so it's not definitive or conclusive at all. I definitely need to play it more before I make up my mind on it. The Olimar I played against ended up getting 1st and I got 7th. He beat MVD and NIck Riddle on his way to 1st, and those are not easy players to beat lol. I know Oli beat Ness in brawl and Olimar is still a decent character in smash 4. His pikmin AI being fixed since the 3ds version has been a tremendous buff for him. I mean I still have barely seen any Olimar play and have barely played against Olimar, but it wouldn't surprise me if in the future Olimar was actually a great character that we would have trouble with. All speculation now though. And Olimar is also a very unpopular character so meh.

 

[Noa.]

I voted for sheik. I have a lot of advice on her and she's by far the most popular character in tournament.

Oops double post. Sorry

 

[Earthbound360]

What specifically gave you issues? Air game? Priority wars? Projectile spam?

 

[Luco]

Hmm? Oli went even with Ness in Brawl @ Noa. . :D

It was arguable though, it was definitely ever so slightly in his favour imo but most agreed it was even enough to be 0.

It's weird seeing you referred to as 'draco' hehe, i'm so used to people calling me that. :3

My 3 most hated MUs as Ness are probably Rosaluma, Palutena (customs on) and mayyybbeeee Falco btw

 

[Noa.]

People actually call me Noa. :V I should get a name change soon to reflect that.

Meh I'm not that familiar with the ness oli brawl matchup so I'll take your word for it. Can't say I had much ness experience in brawl.

 

[Luco]

People actually call me Noa. :V I should get a name change soon to reflect that.

Meh I'm not that familiar with the ness oli brawl matchup so I'll take your word for it. Can't say I had much ness experience in brawl.

It was because PK Fire on pikmin created a wall of hitboxes he didn't wanna run into... almost like how we use PKF on Luma to create the same effect. Also I believe we outranged him in the air with Fair, and we could edge-guard him pretty decently (though he could do the same to us).

In this game...? I dunno.

And yeah that's what I do on skype hehe. I should turn that computer back on so I can get on and we can test more for our project haha.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Megaman makes you have to approach from the air (lemons too stronk, and if you even think about magnet then he throws a metal blade at you)

You can just jump or roll back if you absorb the lemons.

 

[PKBeam]

it's hard to actually predict the lemons and if you're wrong you get slashed in the face by a razor sharp blade or hit by a bomb.

 

[Ranias]

Hey guys. Kinda off topic, but I just played like 40 games against a great Pikachu on For Glory and I won all of them.

I think that one's a +3.

I can post replays too.

Edit: This does sound pretty stupid, lol. Probably just +1 honestly.

 

[Luco]

Haha, hmm, I dunno, Pikachu to me screams either even or slightly in our favour, i'd be surprised if it's anything better than +1 myself ahah :3

 

[Yink]

Did you guys read the post I laid out? I wanted you to PM me with your choice for our next discussion. @ Noa. suggested Sheik thus far, so I'm just waiting on you guys. Send me the PMs.

 

[Seleir]

guys someone explain to me MU of megaman please?