Nerf wishlist (Lock this please)

[Deleted member]

Serious discussion topic

Which characters do you feel are too good and need to be nerfed and why?

Me: Superheavies in general. I main 3 of them, but fighting them is like trying to stop a moving train. Especially when it comes to a certain someone with armored smash attacks... This is why I don't main anyone lighter than Ridley and the Belmonts, the latter of which also need nerfs.

 

[Orlando BCN]

Can they nerf Isabelle’s cuteness? I want to cast her into the eternal void so bad.

 

[Luigifan18]

Can they nerf Isabelle’s cuteness? I want to cast her into the eternal void so bad.

Careful with those cursed posts, dude.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I want them to nerf Fox in every way possible.

 

[HenryZusa]

I would like to nerf some of Incineroar's moves that send you incredibly far even at low damage.

 

[RepStar]

I would like them to cut more than half the roster next game so it can be smash again and not weebtrash and gimmicks that shouldve only been assist trophies. Thats all tbh.

 

[Lavani]

Nothing so far.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Greninja, just because it'd be slightly amusing.

Nah but seriously though superheavies are finally decent for once and you wanted them nerfed? Do you want them to always suck? They're still combo fodder with inferior frame data, so I'd say they're all still fairly balanced. Yes, even K.Rool the noob killer.

And I know this has been said several times before, but it's too early for us to be calling for nerfs. The metagame is still settling and we're all still getting used to the new game engine. Sometimes nerfs need to happen but so called "nerf culture" was a plague on the Smash 4 community and I really don't want to see the community make the same mistakes.

 

[Deleted member]

Greninja, just because it'd be slightly amusing.

Nah but seriously though superheavies are finally decent for once and you wanted them nerfed? Do you want them to always suck? They're still combo fodder with inferior frame data, so I'd say they're all still fairly balanced. Yes, even K.Rool the noob killer.

And I know this has been said several times before, but it's too early for us to be calling for nerfs. The metagame is still settling and we're all still getting used to the new game engine. Sometimes nerfs need to happen but so called "nerf culture" was a plague on the Smash 4 community and I really don't want to see the community make the same mistakes.

I want them to be decent, but they're too decent imo. Rool and Ganondorf are the biggest offenders to me; it's all fun and games until the 2nd heaviest character in the game kills you at 40-50% with an armored smash attack.

It may be too early, but it's getting aggravating; it feels unbalanced. What even is this "nerf culture"?

I would like them to cut more than half the roster next game so it can be smash again and not weebtrash and gimmicks that shouldve only been assist trophies. Thats all tbh.

Please keep your trolling, nostalgia-blind, fake-fan comments to yourself.

 

[RepStar]

They're too decent imo. Rool and Ganondorf are the biggest offenders to me; it's all fun and games until the 2nd heaviest character in the game kills you at 40-50% with an armored smash attack.


Please keep your trolling, nostalgia-blind, fake-fan comments to yourself.

You made a thread about a "nerf wishlist" the premise of this thread itself could be considered trolling, lmao.

A 70 character roster is guaranteed to be unbalanced forever.

 

[Deleted member]

You made a thread about a "nerf wishlist" the premise of this thread itself could be considered trolling, lmao.

A 70 character roster is guaranteed to be unbalanced forever.

This is actually a legit thread. There are nigh unbeatable smashers who feel too strong and I'm looking for valid opinions.

 

[RepStar]

This is actually a legit thread. There are nigh unbeatable smashers who feel too strong and I'm looking for valid opinions.

K rools armor shouldnt reflect projectiles

K rools armor needs a nerf

K rools recovery needs a nerf it propels him too much. Needs the same height has DKs.

Ganondorfs attack speed needs to be slower on start-up and his captain falcon moves need to go. Hes a cheap character overall.

Isabelle needs to die alot easier. She should be the third lightest character after pichu and her fishing net needs to be unsafe for like 2 seconds. She should be k.o.d at 40% considering all the tools he has and how strong she is.

Inklings roller should have a shorter duration and should only roll once.

All sword characters should be weaker considering the dumb range, speed and, projectiles they have. They should be the weakest type in the game except a few like ike.

Wii fit trainer shouldnt be able to heal herself. If youre injured the last thing thatll help is excersizing. She shouldnt have two projectiles either. ( very very very stupid gimmick character btw)

Incineroar should not have armor, ****ing enough already with this armor ****.

Thats my OPINION. my second LEGIT OPINION.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

K rools armor shouldnt reflect projectiles

K rools armor needs a nerf

K rools recovery needs a nerf it propels him too much. Needs the same height has DKs.

Ganondorfs attack speed needs to be slower on start-up and his captain falcon moves need to go. Hes a cheap character overall.

Isabelle needs to die alot easier. She should be the third lightest character after pichu and her fishing net needs to be unsafe for like 2 seconds. She should be k.o.d at 40% considering all the tools he has and how strong she is.

Inklings roller should have a shorter duration and should only roll once.

All sword characters should be weaker considering the dumb range, speed and, projectiles they have. They should be the weakest type in the game except a few like ike.

Wii fit trainer shouldnt be able to heal herself. If youre injured the last thing thatll help is excersizing. She shouldnt have two projectiles either. ( very very very stupid gimmick character btw)

Incineroar should not have armor, ****ing enough already with this armor ****.

Thats my OPINION. my second LEGIT OPINION.

Most of these aren't even legit nor well thought out. You don't even explain what makes this characters' moves overpowered or toxic enough to warrant them a nerf. It's just a list of petty requests based on knee-jerk reactions and it feels pretty self serving.

Incineroar shouldn't have armor because you say so?
Sword characters should be the weakest because you say so?
Ganondorf needs to be slower because you say so?
K Rool's recovery needs to be lower because you say so as well?

This is the typical attitude of a player unwilling to learn troublesome matchups.

Game's meta hasn't properly settled yet so its too early to call for nerfs with the game still being young.

 

[RepStar]

Most of these aren't even legit nor well thought out. You don't even explain what makes this characters' moves overpowered or toxic enough to warrant them a nerf. It's just a list of petty requests based on knee-jerk reactions and it feels pretty self serving.

Incineroar shouldn't have armor because you say so?
Sword characters should be the weakest because you say so?
Ganondorf needs to be slower because you say so?
K Rool's recovery needs to be lower because you say so as well?

This is the typical attitude of a player unwilling to learn troublesome matchups.

Game's meta hasn't properly settled yet so its too early to call for nerfs with the game still being young.

Legit as in sincere. Sorry you dont like it.

 

[Deleted member]

Most of these aren't even legit nor well thought out. You don't even explain what makes this characters' moves overpowered or toxic enough to warrant them a nerf. It's just a list of petty requests based on knee-jerk reactions and it feels pretty self serving.

Incineroar shouldn't have armor because you say so?
Sword characters should be the weakest because you say so?
Ganondorf needs to be slower because you say so?
K Rool's recovery needs to be lower because you say so as well?

This is the typical attitude of a player unwilling to learn troublesome matchups.

Game's meta hasn't properly settled yet so its too early to call for nerfs with the game still being young.

None of that matters. Some of us just want to win and have fun for once. We don't need settling of the meta to have peeves and call for nerfs.

 

[R O F L]

I don't have any problems with armor.
If you know the character your fighting's moveset, you'll know which attacks have armor or not. If you see your opponent pull off an attack with armor, react and grab them, or dodge and punish.
Although, I do agree that some of K. Rool's armor attacks are a bit too strong, like stilt and nair.

What I do have a problem with are grounding moves.
Grounding moves almost always give you a free followup. Some character's grounds are so strong that you can pull off a charged smash attack, which can be certain death at higher percents. I'm fine with grounding attacks that are slower and more punishable, like DK's Headbutt, but Inkling's Roller, K. Rool's Dtilt, and every throw that grounds need to somehow be nerfed in one way or another.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

What I do have a problem with are grounding moves.
Grounding moves almost always give you a free followup. Some character's grounds are so strong that you can pull off a charged smash attack, which can be certain death at higher percents. I'm fine with grounding attacks that are slower and more punishable, like DK's Headbutt, but Inkling's Roller, K. Rool's Dtilt, and every throw that grounds need to somehow be nerfed in one way or another.

Learn to mash. All of those are escapable until well over 100%. Or just plain don't get hit. All of those are easily avoidable except K Rool D-throw, which you can mash out of until 150ish%. It's so easy to mash out that as K Rool I don't go for anything besides up-tilt after D-throw.

Also, game hasn't even been out for a month yet and characters are too overpowered already? Git gud, adapt. If you want people to take Smash seriously, quit whining 21 days after the game's release.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I still think PK fire should be nerfed. It's too spammy. Not that I lose to it, but when my opponent spams it the game becomes really annoying.

 

[Sudz]

I still think PK fire should be nerfed. It's too spammy. Not that I lose to it, but when my opponent spams it the game becomes really annoying.

Oh? You like being able to move?
It'd be a real shame if...

 

[RepStar]

Yea i agree lucas pk fire can get nerfed all it wants but Ness? Uh, nah. Git gud bro, ness is one of the most honest characters in the game.

 

[Idon]

As it is currently, I feel they should rebalance Chrom/Roy.
Right now, there's next to zero reason to ever pick Roy in 99% of situations, and I loathe the concept of buffing Roy when he's already powerful, so that leaves nerfing Chrom in some way.

 

[ScottyWK]

All of the characters brought up so far IMO have problems with their game that balance out the "need" for nerfing.

If anything, Inkling's roller should be nerfed to wiggle out of sooner, but even then if you are aware of your opponent trying to do it, it's not hard to avoid. The game should be allowed to breathe another month or two before we start nerfing.

 

[Sudz]

Yea i agree lucas pk fire can get nerfed all it wants but Ness? Uh, nah. Git gud bro, ness is one of the most honest characters in the game.

It's just obnoxious mostly. I agree it doesn't need to be nerfed. I'd say my knee-jerk reaction to Lucas is that it's got a lot of knock back, but I don't think I've figured out that match up enough to outright call for a nerf

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Yea i agree lucas pk fire can get nerfed all it wants but Ness? Uh, nah. Git gud bro, ness is one of the most honest characters in the game.

You're the one saying "git gud" when you literally went to the Dedede discussion just to rant about losing and blaming it on anything but yourself.

I never said I lost to PK fire spam. I only said it makes matches really uninteresting. Like, how do these people even get to this much GSP?

 

[Arthur97]

Roller may be an issue, or perhaps burying itself should be reworked.

 

[link2702]

No nerfs this early.

Seriously it hasn’t even been a full month yet. At least give the game some time to develop first.

On that note *IF* i was to change anything about inkling, maybe (keyword; MAYBE) it’d be their running animation. Have em run in kid form not squid. Right now they probably have one of the best runs in the game since it’s hard to gauge exactly how close to you they are when running(...or....swimming?) and before you know it they’re on you with a grab. Or at least make em a bit more visible.

Of course I still don’t think anything should be changed yet, the game is still too early in its life, and I feel we all(including me with getting used to their dash/run) need to attempt to learn how to fight the characters first.

 

[Blackwolf666]

The attacks that ground you such as K Rool’s D-throw and inkling’s roller.

 

[RepStar]

You're the one saying "git gud" when you literally went to the Dedede discussion just to rant about losing and blaming it on anything but yourself.

I never said I lost to PK fire spam. I only said it makes matches really uninteresting. Like, how do these people even get to this much GSP?

Mmmhmm let it all out, its ok to get fried and call it uninteresting because you lost. And im great with dedede , just wish he was better. Good players use low tier charactersl. Hes my secondary anyway, lol.

 

[Cycrum]

No nerfs should happen until the meta has time to settle. I'd give at least two or three months for this.

 

[Oddball]

Please keep your trolling, nostalgia-blind, fake-fan comments to yourself.

So ... nobody should post in this topic?

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Mmmhmm let it all out, its ok to get fried and call it uninteresting because you lost. And im great with dedede , just wish he was better. Good players use low tier charactersl. Hes my secondary anyway, lol.

??? I literally just called you out simply for being a hypocrite. There's no reason to make a fuss about it, much less the entire scene you've been making on this thread.

Sounds like you need to calm down.

I find the matches "uninteresting" since it's boring to win against someone who clearly doesn't belong in your league. Matches against skilled players are more fun since it actually feels tournament level.

And yes I agree maining low tiers is where it's at. They're usually all I play as save the occasional Marth or Zelda when I'm in the mood.

 

[Necro'lic]

I guess I should chime in at least a bit. But it's mostly a repeat of what others said here, in that no nerfs nor buffs yet.

The way I see it, nerfs are for specific cases. Firstly, they are there to quell the power of super high tier characters, namely the ones that would be in their own tier away from most others. Secondly, and this is sometimes less thought of, is to nerf super overpowered options from fighters, and this also includes even mid tiers and low tiers. Basically, nerf anything in a fighter's kit that invalidates a lot of their potential strategy.

These are the two main things to nerf. You know what the problem is in both of these cases? They take a lot of metagame development before they are truly found in more objective measurements. The most objective measurement you will get is tournament results, but there aren't enough tournaments to base nerfs nor buffs on, nor is there enough time between the release and now.

In short, asking for nerfs this early on is a mistake. Try again after maybe two, three, four months time when the dust settles and an actual meta is taking hold long term.

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Please be mindful about what you post. Just because you have an opinion doesn’t mean that everyone shares the same opinion and/or it makes it automatically right. Also, for many people, characters are more than just ... a character. People do get defensive and they have a right to since you are criticizing thier main. Please keep others in mind when you are explaining why you think a character should be nerfed. And this goes without saying but posts like “nerf (insertchar) cause they suck lol” is spam. Potentially trolling or flaming posts will be warned or infracted just please keep this in mind before posting.

Remember to always report instead of replying to potential problematic posts and let moderation take care of it.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Inkling's roller isn't an issue. Neither is King K. Rool's armor.

 

[Meritocracy]

I want to echo the other posters who talked about how it's too early for nerfs, but I want to bring up another point.
What if, just maybe, we never nerfed anything.
I'm not saying we shouldn't have any balance changes at all, that would be silly, in a few years when Pichu is optimized to his full potential we're going to need something to make other characters viable, but that just it. What if instead of nerfing busted characters, we instead buffed worse characters to compete? For instance, instead of nerfing Chrom and Inceniroar, we buffed other characters ability to knock them offstage and keep them there? just something to think about.
But for the record, slow down Incineroar's counter, that's the only legitimate nerf I can think of. Yes, there are faster moves, but if I'm three frames too slow with my combos, he doesn't just reset neutral, he swaps from disadvantage to advantage almost instantly. With his insane ground game and combo breaker counter, the whole combo food thing doesn't apply as much as it should.
yes, I already have plans to do that whole "git gud" thing, but I figured I'd try to do something other than just say this thread is dumb and contribute something meaningful to the discussion.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

None of that matters. Some of us just want to win and have fun for once. We don't need settling of the meta to have peeves and call for nerfs.

And that is a bad mentality to have. This reminds me of the stories about people returning their Street Fighter IV copies at retails because they weren't winning enough.

If you care about winning then it's up to you to get better and learn character matchups. You think your time to shine will come whenever the devs drop that magical balance patch that will nerf a strong character and buff a weak one? Even if your wish of nerfs came true, you are still going to lose if you refuse to improve yourself. The balance team shouldn't be appeasing self serving users.
Also, winning and having fun aren't necessarily tied with each other. You can have a good match, lose and enjoy yourself.

Legit as in sincere. Sorry you dont like it.

Sincere then? Got it.
Too bad its still a bunch of baloney. Me not liking it is the least of the problems, as that still doesn't change the fact that most of those changes aren't healthy to the game and are based on a knee jerk reaction.

 

[Necro'lic]

But for the record, slow down Incineroar's counter, that's the only legitimate nerf I can think of. Yes, there are faster moves, but if I'm three frames too slow with my combos, he doesn't just reset neutral, he swaps from disadvantage to advantage almost instantly. With his insane ground game and combo breaker counter, the whole combo food thing doesn't apply as much as it should.

You forget that Incineroar is a super heavyweight, and thus is at an inherent disadvantage in the game as is. I honestly think Revenge is one of the main reasons Incineroar isn't actually completely terrible right out the gate.

 

[Meritocracy]

You forget that Incineroar is a super heavyweight, and thus is at an inherent disadvantage in the game as is. I honestly think Revenge is one of the main reasons Incineroar isn't actually completely terrible right out the gate.

did you read the rest of my post?

 

[ZephyrZ]

I want to echo the other posters who talked about how it's too early for nerfs, but I want to bring up another point.
What if, just maybe, we never nerfed anything.
I'm not saying we shouldn't have any balance changes at all, that would be silly, in a few years when Pichu is optimized to his full potential we're going to need something to make other characters viable, but that just it. What if instead of nerfing busted characters, we instead buffed worse characters to compete? For instance, instead of nerfing Chrom and Inceniroar, we buffed other characters ability to knock them offstage and keep them there? just something to think about.
But for the record, slow down Incineroar's counter, that's the only legitimate nerf I can think of. Yes, there are faster moves, but if I'm three frames too slow with my combos, he doesn't just reset neutral, he swaps from disadvantage to advantage almost instantly. With his insane ground game and combo breaker counter, the whole combo food thing doesn't apply as much as it should.
yes, I already have plans to do that whole "git gud" thing, but I figured I'd try to do something other than just say this thread is dumb and contribute something meaningful to the discussion.

In a perfect world this would be the best way to do things. However, sometimes nerfing is the most practical option. Which would be easier, nerfing one or two overpowered characters or buffing 60+ other characters to the point of matching them without accidently overtuning some of them and creating whole new balance issues that need to be fixed as well?

 

[Necro'lic]

did you read the rest of my post?

I actually didn't. But I did now, and that paragraph is still pretty independent from all of the other thoughts you brought up. But to reply to your first paragraphs, never nerfing anything is a terrible idea. I believe I already explained it in another thread:

Sometimes nerfs aren't even specifically done to nerf a character overall, but instead to balance their moveset with itself more smoothly. In fact, almost all of the transitioning changes from Smash 4 to Ultimate were of this nature. DK and Bowser lost their UThrow-UAir kill combos, the main reason they saw play in Smash 4 at all. These nerfs caused their overall kit to be more useful overall and cause them to both to switch away from one-trick pony type strategies. Another example but for a low tier is Samus, who lost her dash attack combos in exchange for more kill power, shield damage, and overall utility. Now Samus is played much differently, but is the very act of nerfing something in her kit a bad thing when that nerfed move was basically the center of her play to the point of being the only good thing about her?

This isn't even mentioning the fact that nerfs are sometimes just better than buffs, especially for nerfing high tier characters or characters that overcentralize the meta. And the idea I've seen going around to "buff all low tiers to highest tier level" is absurd in the extreme for two reasons:

1: Development time is finite, and to nerf two or three high tiers to go down to high-mid tier level is FAR more reasonable than buffing everyone else. It takes less manpower and causes far less confusion in trying to predict the future meta or going against the characters' design.

2: Power creep comes in. This usually results in what happened to PM early on where they though making everyone as good as Melee Fox was the way to go, not realizing Melee Fox is NOT a balanced character at all. This caused every character to be based on a specific, overpowered gimmick that was either hard to counter or not counterable in any way other than "don't get hit". This will eventually lower viable options, but within a character's moveset, which in some ways is worse.