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[Melomaniacal]

what is the exact reason why the ICs chaingrab has not been atleast limited or banned? i find it far more game breaking then Metaknight yet little has been done to access it

In a nutshell:
1) Nana must be alive
2) Nana must be close
3) ICs have no grab setups
4) ICs have the worst grab range in the game
5) Difficult to execute
6) Different timing for each character

At this point, everyone knows what to expect from ICs. It is very possible to not get grabbed in a match by ICs, and it is extremely possible to not get grabbed while both Climbers are present, and it is extremely possible that the player will mess up the chain grab. There are only a handful (if that) of players who can consistently do ICs chain grabs well enough to truly make one grab = death.
Not to mention, since most people expect the grab, the grab has to be after, like, ~30% in order for you to not wiggle out.

 

[Toronto Joe]

timing and difficulty should not matter in banning something, then you could just ban falcos cg for being easy with that logic

and in brawl its easy to sheildgrab most approaches,the only time i see ICs having a super hard time getting the grab is when they are being air planked or spammed in some manor,which only makes the metagame even gayer, keep nana close isnt hard,and at low % dthrow will chain with Popo giving nana time to catchup

and by grab set-up do you mean moves that combo into grab? im not sure but side-b > grab and blizzard > grab might be possible if its unexpected

but seriosuly though, why is their no grab limit? even with a 4 grab limit thats a 60% combo, i see no valid reason why it hasnt been limited

 

[Melomaniacal]

timing and difficulty should not matter in banning something, then you could just ban falcos cg for being easy with that logic

and in brawl its easy to sheildgrab most approaches,the only time i see ICs having a super hard time getting the grab is when they are being air planked or spammed in some manor,which only makes the metagame even gayer, keep nana close isnt hard,and at low % dthrow will chain with Popo giving nana time to catchup

and by grab set-up do you mean moves that combo into grab? im not sure but side-b > grab and blizzard > grab might be possible if its unexpected

but seriosuly though, why is their no grab limit? even with a 4 grab limit thats a 60% combo, i see no valid reason why it hasnt been limited

Agreed, but at the same time, there are barely any people (maybe two) who can chain grab consistently enough for it to be even close to being "broken" (which it still isn't, because of the other reasons I gave). Things aren't banned because one or two people are good enough at it to warrant a ban (again, I still don't think it warrants a ban, even with that level of consistency). If that was the case, Metaknight would be banned because M2K is too good.

That's why you have to play gay against ICs. Something being boring or gay doesn't make it ban-worthy though. It's irrelevant. And most characters have ways of separating ICs. Popo's dthrow chain only works on a few characters at low percents.

Neither of those will set ICs up for a grab if the opponent knows anything about DI.

Because it's not broken. If it was, then I want to know why ICs aren't winning tournaments left and right. How many tournaments have they won on the last ranking list? Four?

Oh, and about a limit, basically it's too hard to enforce. They tried it in Texas, and there were ways around it.

 

[Toronto Joe]

so since only a few people are good enough at what is clearly a broken part of the game we should let it slide by and just need to deal with those few? what the ****, the chaingrab is gamebreaking,broken,unbalance,whatever other term you can throw out

Lain and Ambrose win or get top 3 at almost every tournament they have been to

Im not saying the cg should be banned, im saying it needs a limit because 1 grab should never result in a death in a game where approaching is high risk low reward, a 4 grab limit then footstool > block lock > smash dishes out more then enough damage

how are there ways around it? so your saying there is no way to limit it,i highly doubt that

 

[Melomaniacal]

so since only a few people are good enough at what is clearly a broken part of the game we should let it slide by and just need to deal with those few? what the ****

the chaingrab is gamebreaking,broken,unbalance,whatever other term you can throw out
Lain and Ambrose win or get top 3 at almost every tournament they have been to

Im not saying the cg should be banned, im saying it needs a limit because 1 grab should never result in a death in a game where approaching is high risk low reward, a 4 grab limit then footstool > block lock > smash dishes out more then enough damage

It's not broken, even in the hands of players like Lain or Ambrose.

So does M2K and Ally, but MK and Snake are not broken.

Again, a limit is too hard to enforce. Texas tried a limit, and there were ways around it. The only real way to limit it is to have a judge at every match with ICs, and that's not very realistic. Even so, what would be the standard limit? Four grabs? Why not five? Etc, etc.
Well, first off, block lock isn't even good, haha. But, blocks will force a get up, where I could just grab you again anyway.

 

[Toronto Joe]

i still dont get this whole using M2k and Ally should be banned logic, MK and Snake cant 0-death you so i dont see where the hell that was going

and why would you need a judge? 4 grab limit, no regrab after the ice block lock, how can you get around that

 

[Melomaniacal]

i still dont get this whole using M2k and Ally should be banned logic, MK and Snake cant 0-death you so i dont see where the hell that was going

and why would you need a judge? 4 grab limit, no regrab after the ice block lock, how can you get around that

My point is that the chain grab is not proving to be broken. There are maybe three people who can use it well enough. We don't preemptively ban things because one day they might (key word there) become broken. It's not winning ICs tournaments, there are ways around it.

So, after the four grabs, I can't grab you... until what? Until I do... anything else? Well, I'll just grab you anyway and say I did. Then we'll go complain about it to a TO, and it's your word against mine. If no one saw it, it never happened.
But again, why four grabs? What makes four grabs the magic number?

 

[infomon]

Toronto Joe, it's your own made-up opinion that chaingrabs are "wrong" and "shouldn't be in the game". I think that point-of-view is just flawed. It is in the game, and that's the only thing that matters. I'm interested in playing Brawl, not Brawl-with-arbitrary-limitations-based-around-someone's-subjective-notion-of-what-it-should-have-been.

We ban stuff that reduces the game to no contest; that makes the game unplayable. Playing vs. good ICs is definitely different and challenging but definitely not unplayable. Perhaps someday we'll see this, and IC dominance will be uncontested.... but right now that simply isn't the case.

Pro tip: just kill Nana.

 

[Toronto Joe]

i never said they were wrong and im not asking that they be removed, i came in here asking WHY the ICs chaingrab hasnt been limited and i still see know valid reason, when 1 grab results in a stock i find it game breaking, sue me

 

[Melomaniacal]

i never said they were wrong and im not asking that they be removed, i came in here asking WHY the ICs chaingrab hasnt been limited and i still see know valid reason, when 1 grab results in a stock i find it game breaking, sue me

Well, it's your fault for getting grabbed. Like I said, it's entirely possible to avoid getting grabbed by ICs. Worst grab range + no grab setups. It's harder than you think to get the grab in if you're opponent knows what they're doing.
And one grab still doesn't always equal death, because of all the reasons I have given before.

 

[mivpl]

Is the dash dance timing the same for each character, or do some demand faster tapping?

what moves you are going to do?

 

[MorpheusVGX]

I've been trying to find charts on character vertical air speed but I don't seem to find anything. Is vertical jump speed the same as falling speed ( going up fast and falling slow would be weird ) ? Are there any charts on dodge and roll speeds? Jump height charts? Grab Range? I am interested in all that is statics for characters. I've already found charts on run speed, horizontal air speed, falling speed and weight. I would also be interesting to have charts for character KO power and attack speed, but that would be a bit complex. I thank you in advance.

 

[ndayday]

Here is the thread detailing dodge/roll frame data for characters. I'm not sure a vertical air speed list exists, but who knows? As for KO power and attack speed, I'm pretty sure every board has a frame data sticky, although some boards have it in the stickied guide. Some boards have data showing what percentage a move kills off the top of the stage without DI, but that data is very hard to find due to a player's DI and position on the stage.

Anyway; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225510&highlight=dodge+roll+frame+data

 

[Chileno4Live]

Is there a thread where you can see the weight of each character. Like who is the heaviest and all. A weight list. My friend thinks that Ike is heavier than Wolf so i want to check that out.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6443314&highlight=weight+list#post6443314

Spoilers. Ike is heavier.

 

[Chileno4Live]

Okay darn I thought wolf was heavier. Thnx anyway

 

[MorpheusVGX]

Here is the thread detailing dodge/roll frame data for characters. I'm not sure a vertical air speed list exists, but who knows? As for KO power and attack speed, I'm pretty sure every board has a frame data sticky, although some boards have it in the stickied guide. Some boards have data showing what percentage a move kills off the top of the stage without DI, but that data is very hard to find due to a player's DI and position on the stage.

Anyway; http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225510&highlight=dodge+roll+frame+data

I thank you. This was helpful. I still need data about:

- Jump height
- Vertical Air Speed
- Grab Range

- Overall KO power ranking
- Overall attack speed ranking

When I have all together (I may have to test if I cannot find this) I will create a statics thread. A complete one does not exist as far as I've seen. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Is there any other character besides Falco that can do a good Boosted Reverse Pivot Grab? And I mean good as in there is a significant boost so that its worth using over a normal pivot grab.

 

[SCOTU]

I thank you. This was helpful. I still need data about:

- Jump height
- Vertical Air Speed
- Grab Range

- Overall KO power ranking
- Overall attack speed ranking

When I have all together (I may have to test if I cannot find this) I will create a statics thread. A complete one does not exist as far as I've seen. Any help would be appreciated.

Might have to find some of that yourself. Especially for the subjective crap like "Overall ____" Hell, even grab range is subjective, since it's a volume based thing and some grabs are taller than other.

Also you may want to try making a statistics thread. I don't think a statics thread will do much good

Is there any other character besides Falco that can do a good Boosted Reverse Pivot Grab? And I mean good as in there is a significant boost so that its worth using over a normal pivot grab.

yeah. Fox's is rather good, and that's just one example.

 

[Brinzy]

Speaking of grabs, this might've already been answered, but what happens if two characters grab and, on a specific frame, both grabs come out at the same time? I'm not at my Wii, so...

 

[CRASHiC]

Speaking of grabs, this might've already been answered, but what happens if two characters grab and, on a specific frame, both grabs come out at the same time? I'm not at my Wii, so...

Who ever has the lower controller port (as in player 1) will take the grab.

 

[Brinzy]

mmk, I thought something like that would happen. Thanks.

 

[Ingulit]

Is there any other character besides Falco that can do a good Boosted Reverse Pivot Grab? And I mean good as in there is a significant boost so that its worth using over a normal pivot grab.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=220729

Diddy has a few nice tricks with it, but nothing game-breaking.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Are displayed damage percentages rounded down, rounded up, or rounded to the nearest whole number?

I think it rounds to the nearest whole number. I was testing which attacks refreshed stale moves (which is a necessity when you play as Peach, trust me), and I was staling Fair as much as possible. Usually a completely staled Fair does 6%, but one time it did 7% instead. Therefore, I'm assuming it rounds to the nearest whole number. I could be wrong though...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Was there ever a good reason given why the DDD standing infinite/step infinite is still allowed in most tournaments? I see it as a rather annoying technique that only leads to the complete invalidation of 5 (6?) characters from the competitive scene. A normal dthrow chaingrab to the ledge like with a lot of chars is one thing, but this one technique ruins the games of otherwise possibly useful characters like DK or Bowser. It would only affect those matchups to ban it, and who knows-without the 90-10 matchup against a top tier char, maybe DK/Bowser/Luigi would be used more.

 

[xatm092]

Was there ever a good reason given why the DDD standing infinite/step infinite is still allowed in most tournaments? I see it as a rather annoying technique that only leads to the complete invalidation of 5 (6?) characters from the competitive scene. A normal dthrow chaingrab to the ledge like with a lot of chars is one thing, but this one technique ruins the games of otherwise possibly useful characters like DK or Bowser. It would only affect those matchups to ban it, and who knows-without the 90-10 matchup against a top tier char, maybe DK/Bowser/Luigi would be used more.

It's pretty difficult to literally say "you are not allowed to grab DK with DDD straight after a downthrow", especially if someone is very used to doing it to the point where it's almost reflex. Most "banned" actions are quite easily not done unless you mean to, e.g. planking. However what happens if you grab DK with DDD after a downthrow because you in the heat of the moment just pressed that, because you forgot (or didn't know) it wasn't allowed? Is that an instant loss for you?

I would love it if infinite grabs were banned, but it's hard to enforce.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's pretty difficult to literally say "you are not allowed to grab DK with DDD straight after a downthrow", especially if someone is very used to doing it to the point where it's almost reflex. Most "banned" actions are quite easily not done unless you mean to, e.g. planking. However what happens if you grab DK with DDD after a downthrow because you in the heat of the moment just pressed that, because you forgot (or didn't know) it wasn't allowed? Is that an instant loss for you?

I would love it if infinite grabs were banned, but it's hard to enforce.

Force them to make it either a moving chaingrab or stop after three. I mean, even 3x dthrow then followup with another attack is pretty painful (30-40 damage, I believe). But it's true. It's just bothersome that chars get nuked by a strategy that simple.

 

[ndayday]

I think it rounds to the nearest whole number. I was testing which attacks refreshed stale moves (which is a necessity when you play as Peach, trust me), and I was staling Fair as much as possible. Usualyl a completely staled Fair does 6%, but one time it did 7% instead. Therefore, I'm assuming it rounds to the nearest whole number. I could be wrong though...

They're actually rounded down. I think the game gives a damage reading up to 3 decimal places over, so a percentage like 45.651% would be 45%, and 868.999% would be 868%. I seem to recall reading that it a Brawl mechanics thread.

And Budget, seeing as that is a really controversial question (like MK), you won't really get a correct answer here IMO. You can look at the old threads that deal with the issue, as all the points are brought up in those threads, and you'll get more of a understanding of the other sides opinion etc.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

k. Can you link me to any?

 

[ndayday]

Yeah.

Here, here, here, annnnnd, here.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Thanks.

Rereading those (hell no I ain't reading all of them-too many pages), I believe that Umbreon has the solution to the enforcement issue. Just force a dash between throws. It's still an advantage in matchups where it works, and sans infinite he still has a good matchup against said five... So why not?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Thanks.

Rereading those (hell no I ain't reading all of them-too many pages), I believe that Umbreon has the solution to the enforcement issue. Just force a dash between throws. It's still an advantage in matchups where it works, and sans infinite he still has a good matchup against said five... So why not?

Because it's not banworthy?

As an infinite, it only affects one match-up (Luigi, Mario, and Samus can break out before kill percents).

As a step-chaingrab, the only really notable one is Bowser.


That's far from overcentralizing, why would we ban it?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's not overcentralizing, true. But the issue is that the pro-ban (giving those five characters a chance in tournaments, allowing the advancement of their metagames) outweighs the anti-ban (let DDD be an almost impenetrable hard counter against those characters).

 

[pacmansays]

For the life of me I am unable to use shields or reflectors with any character I use (such as Pit), am I losing out on much and if so are there any ways I could become better and more comfortable using reflectors and shields...

Also, i have used the search button but cannot find a good thread on choosing your main, is there any thread someone could recommend??

Thanks

 

[Frown]

For the life of me I am unable to use shields or reflectors with any character I use (such as Pit), am I losing out on much and if so are there any ways I could become better and more comfortable using reflectors and shields...

Also, i have used the search button but cannot find a good thread on choosing your main, is there any thread someone could recommend??

Thanks

Check if changing controls will help you shield better. Set either X or Y on the GC controller to sheild, and see if you prefer it that way.

Try all characters once or twice, and see which ones you like. You don't need other people to choose your main.

 

[pacmansays]

Check if changing controls will help you shield better. Set either X or Y on the GC controller to sheild, and see if you prefer it that way.

Try all characters once or twice, and see which ones you like. You don't need other people to choose your main.

okay thanks, I prefer wii and nunchuck but I can change controls there too...thanks

 

[Conviction]

What frame does Fox's shield come out?

 

[ThreeSided]

Omg New Posibul At Omgomgomgwtfhax

So yeah, I think I may have just discovered a new non-character-specific AT.

Remember ZAC? It's the AT where you drop an item with Z, and then do an aerial immediately to re-catch the item. It's essentially doing aerials while holding an item.

Well, I just "discovered" that with certain aerials, there is a certain amount of time after doing it with ZAC that you can input another aerial without ZAC, and not throw the item.

There's a lot more to explain with it, but I don't want to bother if it's already been discovered.

Is this new?

 

[Bellioes]

Well the Diddys already know about it. His Bair lets you air catch bananas and then do another aerial before you land. I dont know if its really new but I could be that its just not that common for this to happen since not all characters have access items.

 

[ThreeSided]

Well the Diddys already know about it. His Bair lets you air catch bananas and then do another aerial before you land. I dont know if its really new but I could be that its just not that common for this to happen since not all characters have access items.

I was just shocked when I realized this wasn't on the link AT list... it works well with their Bair.

I mean... a Bomb Technique the link boards HAVEN'T found?! Wtf?