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NCSU Smash Stacks - Round 9 @DUKE 10/30

Dr Peepee

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
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Foxy said:
ty keith and stongers for actually reading that post

kevin

step it up i want validation
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I read that post, don't worry.

I suppose I agree with all of that, but I wouldn't have explained it once you got to why the small group playing vs pro the same way at all.

I'd say exposure to numerous situations and styles from different players is what creates those knowledgeable concepts about any given situation for a particular matchup/player. And really, that's the only way to learn how to deal with everything this game can throw at you, just having it thrown at you in as many different ways as humanly possible.

Ken was the best and traveled the world, learning all styles, to prove it and solidify it.

Mango traveled the US several times, incorporating all sorts of styles and knowledge of the game into his repertoire. Combined with his own natural creativity and skill he turned into the beast we see today.
 
V1CE

V1CE

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Sep 23, 2010
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The Smang House in Trollingwood, NC
I forgot am i teaming with anyone at this. Snap is gonna bring me :p I have 6 days let till im in NC yay... Also i been practicing ALOT over the past couple days and im playing this weekend to. SMASH SMASH SMASH! LOL... With a side of falloutNV too good...
 
Stockfield

Stockfield

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Aug 8, 2009
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2,672
Location
Burlington, NC
V1CE said:
I forgot am i teaming with anyone at this. Snap is gonna bring me :p I have 6 days let till im in NC yay... Also i been practicing ALOT over the past couple days and im playing this weekend to. SMASH SMASH SMASH! LOL... With a side of falloutNV too good...
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If my teammate doesn't come I can team with you man.

I have to say though I am pretty bad though, so yeah i would find a different partner if you can lol.
 
B

Bl@ckChris

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Oct 4, 2009
Messages
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Greensboro, NC
foxy that was an amazing post.

that post summarizes why i got ***** so hard by ****ing apollo. i thought all peaches were stingers :(

dealing with different falco's is weird too, now that i'm used to sneaks. but the concepts you brought up are why i went to that VA tourney that one weekend instead of going to charlotte or something else. the concepts you also brought up are why i'm still going to have trouble. however, i have come up with some of my own options for certain things, like dealing with double lasers off the edge from falco and stuff. ganondorf is a tough character to be creative (and effective) with, but a few mixups (like using usmash lol) are helping me be unpredictable.

foxy, we should get some seriouslies next time we play. i think i can really impress you now, and give you a few problems.
 
Foxy

Foxy

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Joined
Jul 28, 2007
Messages
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Dr Peepee said:
I read that post, don't worry.

I suppose I agree with all of that, but I wouldn't have explained it once you got to why the small group playing vs pro the same way at all.

I'd say exposure to numerous situations and styles from different players is what creates those knowledgeable concepts about any given situation for a particular matchup/player. And really, that's the only way to learn how to deal with everything this game can throw at you, just having it thrown at you in as many different ways as humanly possible.

Ken was the best and traveled the world, learning all styles, to prove it and solidify it.

Mango traveled the US several times, incorporating all sorts of styles and knowledge of the game into his repertoire. Combined with his own natural creativity and skill he turned into the beast we see today.
Click to expand...
ah exactly! that's one of the things i wanted to explain when i began, and forgot about later; the fact that it's not just a player being really smart and adaptive, but even moreso about how many styles they have played against or learned, and the repertoire of styles is always different in each region. traveling (and getting a lot of non-tourney practice against different players) is the fastest and best way to increase your understanding of the full metagame.

Jon? said:
He's looking for another teammate because I'm pretty bad.
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i'm mk too but pro at dubbs
tell him i'd team with him

unless mekos still wants to team, he mentioned we could at mlg but i haven't asked him since. but he'd be my first choice

(oh and im actually winning this tourney sorry guys but im for real now =[ )

Bl@ckChris said:
foxy that was an amazing post.

that post summarizes why i got ***** so hard by ****ing apollo. i thought all peaches were stingers :(

dealing with different falco's is weird too, now that i'm used to sneaks. but the concepts you brought up are why i went to that VA tourney that one weekend instead of going to charlotte or something else. the concepts you also brought up are why i'm still going to have trouble. however, i have come up with some of my own options for certain things, like dealing with double lasers off the edge from falco and stuff. ganondorf is a tough character to be creative (and effective) with, but a few mixups (like using usmash lol) are helping me be unpredictable.

foxy, we should get some seriouslies next time we play. i think i can really impress you now, and give you a few problems.
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thanks for the response! i liked reading that.

we can definitely seriously or money-match, or both. i've never played you much, although the times we have played, i haven't beated you in a real friendly! so i'm the underdog. i can show you flashy new things though.
 
TheLastCacely

TheLastCacely

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Apr 10, 2009
Messages
6,937
stock, Jon was trolling about sushi. >.>

I told y'all not to listen what he has to say.

i just called sushi because i previously asked for him to team with me, if he and jon were not teaming.
 
Foxy

Foxy

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Jul 28, 2007
Messages
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Raleigh, North Carolina
trey said he would ask the desk there a few days ago, i asked again since but i haven't gotten back if he actually did or not or what they said =[

so still
no full confirmation!

that guy needa ask about it

jon make him do it
 
Foxy

Foxy

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really lee?
that's good to know, hopefully we can find out then.
< 1 week announcement ftl

at least it was psuedo-announced to we have some good players planning to come already

@jon RA at north hall
 
lord karn

lord karn

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Jun 18, 2004
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Raleigh, NC
Foxy said:
...?

lolkeith

You're right about the smoothed and cleaned mechanics and stuff but you don't quite know enough about the metagame.

Airdodges are very common recovery tools... every character needs to use them at least sometimes in order to have the full potential of their recovery. To a good player, any other recovery moves or even an empty jump or ledgehop is just as telegraphed and punishable as an airdodge. What makes it important is that edge recovery/guarding in Melee is kind of like a mini version of Brawl - it has two characters in specific positions with a limited number of options and counters to options and time to react - HOWEVER, even at top level, neither player will necessarily know every option, because that's what makes a great player truly great. An option like airdodging seems useless if you literally compare its frames and mobility, but the addition of an entire other option set more than makes up for it, since in a competitive match, even with two great players with good reactions, their reaction and decision speed is buffered by how much they are mentally expecting or prepared for something. Even an option a little bit less common or expected can give you that 5-frame surprise on your opponents reactions.

Say you have two friends who get into smash competitively and practice together constantly - something we see in a lot of cases (even myself and GofG). They'll start out learning the metagame, and their matches will consist of pulling out new techniques and with more consistency.

As they get better and better and more technically consistent and more comfortable with their options in different situations, their matches will have a different flow. It becomes two good players battling spacing until one gets a hit, and then a follow through on chasing and covering options until the player on the offensive drops the ball.

But if neither player is particularly creative, their improvement is almost done. They may even become excellent in their proficiency, and execute their decisions as well as a pro player, and their matches now are high-speed spacing and DI fights until one gets a good hit and 8 out of 10 times it gets followed as long as possible by that player, usually for a stock. They've worked hard and now they're really doing some impressive play.

But they never see that level of control in tournament. They've never really placed that well, despite feeling a pro-level of consistency and ability. Why? Well, this is where the players' creativity, understanding of the game, and experience comes into play. Growing with just one friend or with just a small group to get competitive practice will hone a lot of talents but unless one of the players has a real spark of brilliance (I'm talking about one in 30 players), they evolve so long using similar styles and options that their understanding of the metagame begins to morph more into an understanding of the metagame as utilized by those players. One of the friends has a Sheik that learned to needle camp and CG most characters but just spaces with bread-and-butter combos and no grab tech chases against fastfallers? Everyone in that group starts to expect that from Sheiks, consciously or subconsciously, and thinks of Sheik's metagame more in that player's fashion. (This all applies for a specific region of players who play a lot together as well; NC, I'm looking at you.)

As soon as one of those consistent and talented players faces someone even of a same or lesser skill level, they are automatically at a huge disadvantage. They watch their opponents movements in the match with an interpretation based on the metagame they know, and at the very least, they will probably take an edgeguard, take a killing blow, or drop a combo because this new opponent just happens to have their own style, their own likelihood of utilizing certain moves and techniques, they know a few less and a few more options than our player in each situation. Our player came practiced, prepared, and focused to play the matchup they know so well, but when a few little things slip by that surprise them for kills or escapes, that's easily enough to be the match. That's how a 1-stock happens. (Tech chasing is ESPECIALLY hard to do on new opponents for people who improved at it with a training partner, it's all personal patterns.)

And why is a pro different? A pro isn't necessarily a player that is faster, or a player that is more technically able or consistent, or even a player that has more hours of experience with the game. A pro is a player that, from the time he has had with the game and the knowledge he has gained, has a markedly larger set of options and reactions and counters that they remember and have at-hand in their mind for each situation. Every player has a different understanding set for each situation, and most regular competitive players have very similar ones, and even pros have mostly-overlapping ones, but past technical or mental errors, momentum shifts in competitive matches almost always come from that area of no-overlap in the understanding of both players for the situation.

And it's not that they just watched more videos or played more good players and remember a lot of counters to options; the best players ALWAYS have their own unique options. Not that they do things never-before-seen by anyone, but things that don't even register in the opponent's reflexes all the way until they have consciously recognized and thought about the choice, which is a huge advantage. They can pull out little mini-ace cards that simply delay their opponent's thought processes just a few more frames in their favor due to the option not being anywhere in the opponent's ready-to-use set of understanding.

And that's what a pro match is. It's two players that usually are impressively consistent and skilled in positions where constantly both players are trying to reach into their bag of options and pull out something that will work either due to a guaranteed spacing-or-tech read, due to an error by the other player, or due to it being at least clever unexpected enough to beat the opponent's reactions.

Out of those three things, matches between competitive players like most of NC contain mostly the first two (spacing until some kind of error in technicality or judgment until one player is reading techs or follow-through), but pro matches are primarily the third, with almost none of the second, and a good bit of the first (but even more options from those players in the categories of DI, teching, and unpredictability again turns it more into outpacing their understanding of the game).

This is of course purely Melee metagame, but for Brawl, just omit anything surrounding the word "follow-through" (but "tech read" still applies!).


what the fukc
i wanted to write like a crappy sentence or two to annoy keith and suddenly its 10 mins later and this is here
ty doctor for adderall
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I think this is all pretty accurate. This is usually an obstacle most states have to go through because there are usually only one or two of each character in a state. That's the main reason why highly populated areas have high skill levels; they get practice vs. different styles of the same character.

Although, if you really learn most decision points, you can get pretty good without being that clever. Although I guess that wouldn't be pro level, and that's what you're talking about.

Also, air dodging is almost never good for some characters, theoretically. It is very applicable for most floaties, because their air-dodges are better. Spacies are only going to use airdodges when they are really close and with a jump (i think?). Any other time you're pretty much auto dead. I mean, if you play m2k or someone and airdodge with a non-floaty, you're going to die, and it's going to be purely reaction based.
 
TheLastCacely

TheLastCacely

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lord karn said:
I think this is all pretty accurate. This is usually an obstacle most states have to go through because there are usually only one or two of each character in a state. That's the main reason why highly populated areas have high skill levels; they get practice vs. different styles of the same character.

Although, if you really learn most decision points, you can get pretty good without being that clever. Although I guess that wouldn't be pro level, and that's what you're talking about.

Also, air dodging is almost never good for some characters, theoretically. It is very applicable for most floaties, because their air-dodges are better. Spacies are only going to use airdodges when they are really close and with a jump (i think?). Any other time you're pretty much auto dead. I mean, if you play m2k or someone and airdodge with a non-floaty, you're going to die, and it's going to be purely reaction based.
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yea thats what i was trying to say.

im not sure if foxy said it was wrong or not though.
 
Foxy

Foxy

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lord karn said:
I think this is all pretty accurate. This is usually an obstacle most states have to go through because there are usually only one or two of each character in a state. That's the main reason why highly populated areas have high skill levels; they get practice vs. different styles of the same character.

Although, if you really learn most decision points, you can get pretty good without being that clever. Although I guess that wouldn't be pro level, and that's what you're talking about.

Also, air dodging is almost never good for some characters, theoretically. It is very applicable for most floaties, because their air-dodges are better. Spacies are only going to use airdodges when they are really close and with a jump (i think?). Any other time you're pretty much auto dead. I mean, if you play m2k or someone and airdodge with a non-floaty, you're going to die, and it's going to be purely reaction based.
Click to expand...
Definitely traveling, studying, and playing as many people as you can is a good way to teach you enough perspectives on the metagame that you can beat people who are smarter than you. And all the way until the impossible ceiling, being smarter just lets the player be that good without having learned as much. There are plenty of semi-pros that may not be brilliant, but have put time and effort into the game and their character and improving. I suppose we are assuming that the untouchable (-ish) world-class players are the ones with the highest combination of both.

I've been watching truckloads of recent tournament play and in every match with at least one really good player, limited recovery options and such forced an airdodge at least multiple times in the match. I can't really offhand think of any characters I haven't seen well-known players using and not airdodging at least once. And the airdodges happen that much because they almost always work, compared to other options (as long as you don't make them expected). A player like Mew2king certainly will **** your airdodges, but more in friendlies, or a normal tournament match, but under pressure of playing anyone of equal skill, any pro still leans a bit on the reactions to situations they know and/or expect more. No matter how focused they are, they still make a large handful of mistakes every match (even more if you do count missed chances for reads or times they didn't react fast enough). When you're under pressure like that (not only worldclass finals, but any important match between players that don't underestimate each other), comfort with parts of the metagame or of your playstyle or of the situational knowledge in your head becomes easier and easier to reference in comparison as you become more stressed (or of course if you're actually distracted).

Sigh, I wanted to say two small sentences, didn't notice and all this was written. Sorry bros. I didn't even have anything new to say so idk what is in there.

tl;dr from all ive seen and/or done airdodges can be important and used for all characters being a unique recovery type
 
lord karn

lord karn

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Raleigh, NC
Foxy said:
Definitely traveling, studying, and playing as many people as you can is a good way to teach you enough perspectives on the metagame that you can beat people who are smarter than you. And all the way until the impossible ceiling, being smarter just lets the player be that good without having learned as much. There are plenty of semi-pros that may not be brilliant, but have put time and effort into the game and their character and improving. I suppose we are assuming that the untouchable (-ish) world-class players are the ones with the highest combination of both.

I've been watching truckloads of recent tournament play and in every match with at least one really good player, limited recovery options and such forced an airdodge at least multiple times in the match. I can't really offhand think of any characters I haven't seen well-known players using and not airdodging at least once. And the airdodges happen that much because they almost always work, compared to other options (as long as you don't make them expected). A player like Mew2king certainly will **** your airdodges, but more in friendlies, or a normal tournament match, but under pressure of playing anyone of equal skill, any pro still leans a bit on the reactions to situations they know and/or expect more. No matter how focused they are, they still make a large handful of mistakes every match (even more if you do count missed chances for reads or times they didn't react fast enough). When you're under pressure like that (not only worldclass finals, but any important match between players that don't underestimate each other), comfort with parts of the metagame or of your playstyle or of the situational knowledge in your head becomes easier and easier to reference in comparison as you become more stressed (or of course if you're actually distracted).

Sigh, I wanted to say two small sentences, didn't notice and all this was written. Sorry bros. I didn't even have anything new to say so idk what is in there.

tl;dr from all ive seen and/or done airdodges can be important and used for all characters being a unique recovery type
Click to expand...
Yeah, I was saying theoretically it's not an option. Practically speaking, it does work. Although, in situations that aren't the ones that I mentioned that it's good, you're pretty much gambling and hoping your opponent doesn't mess up. That's why I try to use it only when I'm desperate.
 
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