NC Brocator Thread!

[~Twitch~]

yo ph00t's pretty sexy, specially with that cowboy hat mmmmmmm....

i feel like i've said this before but who cares, it needs to be said more than once. i'm goin to sleep.

 

[AlcyoNite]

You don't think I'm sexy?

>implying that those...things are supposed to be sexy

 

[Ocean]

Well one thing that I think is interesting to note is that at the Big House
The highest placing Falco was 14th

Not saying anything about player skill/if Kevin [for example] had been there or anything
Just wanted to point that out because I think that counts for something
I dunno what it counts for but it just struck me as odd that

when everyone's saying how good he is and how broken he is
Top 13 doesn't even have a Falco in it

Now I know this is kind of an exception I'm sure
Just saying, it's interesting

the sparsity of a character played does not indicate whether he is good or bad, and neither does people's lack of ability to capitalize on his abilities.

 

[Zero_Gamer]

I just wish Falco's Dair weren't freaking invincible.

 

[Divinokage]

I just wish Falco's Dair weren't freaking invincible.

Definitely not invincible. =P

Well one thing that I think is interesting to note is that at the Big House
The highest placing Falco was 14th

Not saying anything about player skill/if Kevin [for example] had been there or anything
Just wanted to point that out because I think that counts for something
I dunno what it counts for but it just struck me as odd that

when everyone's saying how good he is and how broken he is
Top 13 doesn't even have a Falco in it

Now I know this is kind of an exception I'm sure
Just saying, it's interesting

That's because there weren't really any Falco mains. =P

 

[Lightsyde]

Fox is the best character in the game.

He has the best run speed in the game, best jump speed and best fall speed.

He is short and smaller than most characters and is thus harder to hit.

He has the best move in the game (Shine) and 3 of the undisputed best kill moves (Shine, Usmash, Uair).

His Uthrow is likely the best throw in the game, because of its function (throws you straight up with No lasers to DI), because of Foxes moveset (immense potential to kill off the top or off the sides once you're in the air), and because of Fox's mobility (again his speed gives him so many options once he is underneath you).

His UpB is the best recovery move in the game. It sweet spots easily, can get you back from almost anywhere, burns when it's starting, burns under shields and complicates edgeguarding a lot (when placed properly in each specific match up), combos into Uair's if you get hit by it, lands completely lagless. His ForwardB is also incredibly versatile and can be edge cancelled or shortened. The fact that he has these two moves and that both have so much range and variability, and he has a disgustingly good fall speed, give him the best recovery in a game which revolves super hard around edge stuff. Also his wall jump/scar jumping stuff is insane coverage and again, his UpB makes it possible to cover almost anywhere and still get back.

His lasers are the best camping tool in the game. Anytime he feels pressured or is behind he can always run away and shoot sparse lasers or flat out double laser camp you. Short of planking he can almost always force you to approach. Again, his speed makes this possible and (if played correctly) he can run away indefinitely from most of the cast just by correctly utilizing the platforms.

The updated shield dropping techniques make it incredibly dangerous to even try to hit while he is on a platform, especially if he can just shield last second and drop through into a drill.

Dair is insane. Who cares if they can SDI drill? You only need one of the last hits to connect in order for you to shine -> free grab vs most of the cast or shine -> knockdown at the least, which again, his run speed lets you abuse.

People just need to learn to understand how good speed is in this game. JPOBS occasionally says good stuff but in general says quite a few things that I don't agree with that make me kinda think he's just full of hot air. I don't disagree that we occasionally go through these stages of denied belief about stuff, but I'm pretty sure anyone arguing that Fox isn't the best is just not looking at the full moveset.

 

[0Room]

I know there wasn't any really wonderful Falco mains there
I just wanted to remark on it

Because if he's so OP like everyone's saying
I feel like even people not that wonderful at him should have been able to do some more
I dunno maybe I'm just overstating it because I'm sick of everyone johning about him
He's really good, but I don't know if he's the best. I think that, like Puff, he requires a different mindset [something that the good DRPP has said many times]
Not taking away from how good he is, I just don't know that he's the best

And part of that comes from not really being sure on how we're viewing the tier list
Are we looking at theory bros potential? Because then no, absolutely not
But are we looking at tournament human viability? Then maybe

Because absolutely Fox wins against everyone in theory bros
but outside of that is a little bit different

Also
I agree with Josh on speed being one of the most important things in this game

 

[Lightsyde]

I know there wasn't any really wonderful Falco mains there
I just wanted to remark on it

Because if he's so OP like everyone's saying

Are you talking about Fox or Falco?

I haven't really heard anyone who knew what they were talking about truly john about Falco in a long time. His run speed is lousy, his recovery is lousy (past a point) and lasers are easily punishable by all the high tiers if you just watch them. He's still likely 2nd best in the game but he's toast once you start hitting him in a lot of situations. He's also got some pretty unfavorable match ups, unlike ol McCliggens who has no match ups worse than 50-50.

Speed is likely the most important aspect of this game at high level play. That's not the same as always approaching, moreso just forcing them to think fastfastfast induces mistakes and decision points your opponent must react to or get *****.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

he's still talking about falco. it would appear that the thread is somewhat based on the concept that falco is better.

i like hitting fox.

 

[Divinokage]

I know there wasn't any really wonderful Falco mains there
I just wanted to remark on it

Because if he's so OP like everyone's saying
I feel like even people not that wonderful at him should have been able to do some more
I dunno maybe I'm just overstating it because I'm sick of everyone johning about him
He's really good, but I don't know if he's the best. I think that, like Puff, he requires a different mindset [something that the good DRPP has said many times]
Not taking away from how good he is, I just don't know that he's the best

And part of that comes from not really being sure on how we're viewing the tier list
Are we looking at theory bros potential? Because then no, absolutely not
But are we looking at tournament human viability? Then maybe

Because absolutely Fox wins against everyone in theory bros
but outside of that is a little bit different

Also
I agree with Josh on speed being one of the most important things in this game

It's simply a lot easier to be humanly consistent with Falco than Fox. There you go.

 

[Dark Hart]

Falco can control space so well though... And has super combos on everyone... Which I know fox has too I guess but they're no where near as guaranteed... Imo

Also people for some reason nit/pick at his 'worse' shield pressure than fox, since he has like 3 more frames in his jump but on the real Falco's shine does twice as much damage and has more shieldstun sooooooooooooo fox's really isn't that much better...

Imo

Edit: also I hate player vs character debates, they just go in circles

 

[Lightsyde]

Falco can control space with lasers yes, but Fox can cover space just as fast. If you stay in Falco's face and keep him from shooting lasers (for example, watch the way Mike plays vs Falco with Falcon), he can't control space well at all since he's got to be super weary of getting hit/grabbed because even one misread laser may mean death. Falco has a hard time getting away since he can't exactly run away quickly.

And his shield pressure is significantly worse than Fox's. Why? I know that jump speed difference doesn't seem like a lot but, especially in Fox vs Falco, it makes a world of difference. Falco cannot shine Fox OOS if done correctly, Fox can always shine OOS vs Falco's pressure. Fox's jump speed makes his Shine OOS an unbelievably good get out of jail free card and his mobility helps him either escape or turn the situation very quickly. I remember seeing Eggm even using Shine OOS -> Wavedash -> combo a while back.

That's not to say Falco doesn't have really good OOS options, he does, but the speed at which he can get it out vs solid pressure is the issue, not the damage.

 

[Juno McGrath]

Fox is the best character in the game.

 

[KirbyKaze]

 

[Dr Peepee]

LMAOOOOO

that guy KK

 

[-ACE-]

If every video game player in the world played only melee, it would be painstakingly obvious that Fox is the best character in the game.

The higher the level of play (obviously there will be less mistakes as well...), the more important speed and agility (including the speed/agility of moves, aka quick startups/low cooldowns) of a character matter, as you will be winning more exchanges from the neutral position (as well as turning these hits into death combos as the level of play increases).

Fox simply has this advantage over Falco (head to head is one thing, I mean Fox against all vs falco against all).

As people have already stated, it is difficult to have a near-perfect Fox (much harder than having a near-perfect Falco, imo), due to human limitations (largely physical). But if everyone played melee, there would most likely be one. PP, Mango, and Armada might only be top 20.

 

[0Room]

Which is what I was saying
Are we talking about Fox is the best character that you can realistically play or theoretically
Because that's totally different

Also Darkrain has a wonderful way of doing that [keeping close to Falco so that he can't shoot lasers]
It's really interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd6t2H6zgW8

 

[ph00tbag]

>implying that those...things are supposed to be sexy

"Supposed to be" isn't really the question. Regardless of intent, they are sexy.

 

[Dr Peepee]

doing my part to get to the next page past THAT now

 

[Lightsyde]

Which is what I was saying
Are we talking about Fox is the best character that you can realistically play or theoretically
Because that's totally different

Also Darkrain has a wonderful way of doing that [keeping close to Falco so that he can't shoot lasers]
It's really interesting
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nd6t2H6zgW8

Fox is the best character realistically and theoretically because he is the same character. It is not totally different, you are just underestimating how good people are and how much more room there is to continue getting better still.

And boyyyy, I was stealing my vs Falco game from those Midwest Darkrain videos 2 years before you thought about Melee. ;] (ps: You're right though, Darkrain kinda pioneered how to do it, Mango perfected it IMO)

EDIT: And don't even bother Kevin, I'm multiquoting it as soon as we flip pages. ;]

 

[0Room]

Well that was just a very recent game that I thought really nicely and simply portrayed the game plan

 

[Lightsyde]

NO ONE PAYS YOU TO THINK, 00000000VROOOOOOOM

You take those thoughts and you sit and think about what you done did.

 

[DJRome]

i don't think you can consider falco's recovery lousy. especially when marth and sheik have worse recoveries. only a handful of characters have better recoveries than falco

 

[Lightsyde]

LOOOOOL

I don't feel like arguing about Smash today so I'm just going to have respectfully but fervently disagree on the grounds that that is likely the least correct thing I've read all day.

 

[Dark Hart]

Falco has a pretty good recovery

I mean he gets gimped easy at times I guess but every character can situationally (not sure if that's a word)

plus his stage control, combo ability is so good, getting gimped is like Puff dieing early even though she still has rest. balance factor I guess

imo

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

Marth/Sheik recovery is easy as **** to edgeguard. Easy to the point that all you REALLY have to do is grab the ledge, wait for them to land on the stage, and punish the landing lag ad nauseum until they can't make it back any more.

Falco's(and also Fox's) recovery is fast, has low lag and is hella versatile, meaning that if he makes it back on the stage, the situation is usually reset to neutral. However, he can die really easily if you cover the right options.

So technically, yeah, Falco's recovery is better than Marth's and Sheik's. People only think that it's bad because he gets gimped easily if you make one good call on his recovery. But if he makes it past the edgeguard, oh ****, this mother****er is back on the stage.

*shrugs*

 

[Lightsyde]

Once again I'm reminded that most people who play this game do not really know how to DI well, tech ground hits or mix up recoveries.

I am avoiding arguing/explaining Smash things today, mainly because everyone always just assumes I'm mad rather than listening. I think both of you are wrong and don't fully comprehend how many more options Marth (especially) has when recovering. Falco's recovery is bad and most all his options are easily covered with more aggressive reactionary edgeguarding. He is also much easier to knock off the stage, and if he gets below the edge, it's game over. Stopping here.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Josh, the Falco is **** era is upon us

Their understanding isn't technically wrong either since Falco is very developed in this metagame. I find it interesting to explore the opinions.

 

[Lightsyde]

Josh, the Falco is **** era is upon us

Their understanding isn't technically wrong either since Falco is very developed in this metagame. I find it interesting to explore the opinions.

You can call it that if you want. But that's just a mindset, not a truth of the game. The way people talk about his recovery reminds me too much of the way they talk about lasers. So quick to john about things easily exploitable because they haven't figured it out yet. I should know, I used to do it too. haha

Falco has been very publicly developed, I agree. The other part of that statement to me just says that Marth, Sheik and various other characters are under developed in our current metagame, primarily because people are so quick to discount things like their recoveries which are safer/better with good DI/newer survival tactics than anything Falco has.

 

[0Room]

Well I agree with what PLUR said
Though I also agree with Josh

Two things:
1) I would like you guys to critique some videos if you could
2) Talk to me about Falco's bair

How do you beat it

 

[Dr Peepee]

I can critique

You beat it when he ACs by waiting a second then using anything lol.

If he doesn't AC then you gotta be under him(sometimes not possible) or you try to get close and CC punish it.

I mean, the thing to remember about Bair is that it is best done super quickly otherwise Falco can get punished in lag out of it for doing it too high(on shield or on whiff).

 

[0Room]

Okay
But mostly the point is you gotta wait for it to end
Not take it head on

?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Or get under it/hit the ending frames if it's AC'd or done higher in the air, yeah.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

It's a balance, Josh. He definitely has a more versatile recovery than marth or sheik and you can't deny that. Period. He has Forward B, which can be shortened, edgecancelled or whatever it is Falcos do. And he also has an up-B the allows him to go in a variety on angles and lands with no Lag. The same stuff you said about Fox's recovery is applicable to Falco, aside from the fact that Falco can't make it from the blastzones like Fox can.

Sheik can do little transformation tricks to get back and Marth can.... increase his horizontal distance with Dancing Blade. Yeah, he can airdodge too. Oh yeah and swat at the ledge to discourage people from holding too long.

No one is *****ing or johning about Falco. And we all know that once you force him below the stage, he's dead, hence us saying he's gimped easily.

>_>

 

[Sneak8288]

And his shield pressure is significantly worse than Fox's. Why? I know that jump speed difference doesn't seem like a lot but, especially in Fox vs Falco, it makes a world of difference. Falco cannot shine Fox OOS if done correctly, Fox can always shine OOS vs Falco's pressure. I remember seeing Eggm even using Shine OOS -> Wavedash -> combo a while back.

I actually thought this to be true for a long time until I played stricnyn3 for a decent amount of matches. It's not something that every falco does or it may seem somewhat impractical but holding your shield upward makes all the difference vs foxes shield pressure to the point where I got shined out of shield consistently no matter how perfect my pressure was. I just feel like its still a tech that isn't as commonly used as it should be.

Also, Eggm's waveshine out of shield is super annoying. I remember when he used to come to my house he would waveshine out of shield and upsmash my fox or falco like I was peach or something. Or I would get thundered out of shield or just put into a really bad guessing game situation where you have to hope your not chased right. All in all, fox is definitely the best character because of his versatility. Its hard to be better than a character that basically dictates the course of the match whenever they feel like it.

i don't think you can consider falco's recovery lousy. especially when marth and sheik have worse recoveries. only a handful of characters have better recoveries than falco

No

 

[Dr Peepee]

Thank goodness all Foxes can't do that waveshine OOS like Eggm rofl. Life would be so hard.


Edit: for every character

 

[Dark Hart]

If waveshine oos became standard, then I'd agree that fox is the best

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

If it's possible, it'll probably become standard.


If the scene continues to live anyways.

 

[Dorsey]

This is why my main sucks:

his run speed sucks, his recovery sucks, his weight sucks, when he shoots a laser he is basically dead because it's so easily punished, and if you actually understand logical melee then you'd realize that he is ****ing done after one ****ing hit. I would tell all you ******s in the stoneage to sharpen up, but then again you have to play at my level to even comprehend so time wasted on you puny mortals is futile.

my main is falco and trust me I run these ideas by dr. peepee on aim before I post them so they're legit

 

[Bl@ckChris]

if i were falcon i'd just run up and grab him after it.

cause falcons grab game *****.