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Nayru's Oracle: The Official Zelda Matchup Thread! Currently Discussing: Peach

Alacion

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I'm going to have to delay any updates to this thread for the remainder of this week due to final exams, but thought I'd share my overall "Zelda matchup" numbers to act as a diversion until my life is temporarily free from the shackles of school.

-4: :olimar::falco::metaknight::snake::gw::popo:
-3: :zerosuitsamus::wolf::marth::toonlink:
-2::diddy::peach::dk2::wario::pit::rob::dedede: :pikachu2::pt::lucario::ike::sonic::fox::link2: :samus2:
-1: :mario2::luigi2::yoshi2::sheik::sheilda::kirby2: :jigglypuff::lucas::ness2::falcon:
0: :ganondorf::bowser2::zelda:

Note: I believe Marth, Pikachu, Kirby, and possibly Peach and Wario can stand to be -1 more than they already are.
 

KuroganeHammer

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While my opinion might not be the strongest ever due to being Australian, I've played Australia's best ZSS player, and I don't think that particular matchup is -3.

Kirby should be -2 at least. If not -3. That thing is just too stupid. Multiple jumps invalidates our ground game and our anti air game, and as soo as you jump, you will recieve bair.

If you up-smash (our best anti air move imo) you will recieve bair.

If you do nothing, you will recieve bair.

G&W isn't -4. SDI ***** everything he has.

Wolf thoughly ***** us though, I agree. It's a worse matchup than G&W imo.

/opinions
 

Alacion

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What seems to work against Kirby is run away, and "hope opponent approaches, spam smash attacks". Don't even bother approaching that thing.

My ZSS rating comes from what I think about the matchup on paper. I do know the character pretty well as she was a former secondary of mine.

I don't think being able to SDI from G&W's moves helps much, doesn't stop the fact that he kills us hella early and outspaces us. My friend talked to Alph and DM about this and also any follow ups from SDI aren't really plausible.

Wolf is pretty bad, but I don't think he's a -4 matchup.
 

KuroganeHammer

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The thing is against Kirby, he won't approach either, and if he does, he'll approach from out of u-smash range and bait you into anything and then bair you.

SDI'ing G&W's aerials simply avoids all the damage, not neccessarily allows for followups.

And his kills moves are slow. Even d-smash is about 14 frames.

imo G&W is a "bad" character in general, in that he's never really gotten off that hype train of him *apparently* ****** every low and mid tier ever.

It's all a lie. The G&W cake tin is a lie.

Objectively speaking, G&W probably only really ******* Zelda on Battlefield.

-4 on battlefield/Yoshi's Island, -3 everywhere else.
 

Alacion

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Hm I get what you're saying about G&W. My experience with him is pretty bad though, and these days I use Peach for G&W. I think I've improved a bit since the last time I tried the matchup but maybe I'll give it a shot! My SDI still needs a lot of work though, but I'll see what I can do about implementing the dual stick SDI... doesn't seem *too* difficult to execute given enough practise...

Sheik handles Wolf pretty well and in friendlies I'd go Peach and attempt the 0-30%-ish chaingrab on him.

I think Din's is enough to get Kirby to approach. I dunno... spamming smash attacks does seem to be effective against some characters.
 

KuroganeHammer

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Dual stick SDI? I assume that's using both sticks, (that's how I SDI anyway...) but it's important to SDI away from where he's going, so if he bairs toward you and you get hit, SDI madly toward him. You'll take max 3-5% damage.

G&W's DPS is actually trash when you think about it. Majority of his moves are very slow, his grab is trash tier, his roll is trash... :/

Same principal of SDI applies to Peach's dair and pretty much every other multihit aerial btw.

Not to blow a trumpet, but I can SDI out of >90% of multihit attacks on reaction, so with enough practise, anyone can do it. :p

The other day someone hit me with Peach's dair, I SDI'd about a quarter of the stage away. It was amazing. <3
 

Alacion

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I think the Dual Stick SDI stuff is fairly new (the vid and thread are new). Like you hold one direction with the directional stick, and spam another direction on the control stick.

It's apparently the best way to SDI because it maximizes your button inputs. Helps with grab releases too.
 

KuroganeHammer

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Hmm, well usually I just half circle SDI with the d-stick and mash with the c-stick.

Dunno lol.

Normal SDI works really well for me, and I'd rather not screw myself over "relearning" how to SDI again.
 

Alacion

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How's this guys?

:falco: Falco -3 (Large Disadvantage)
[COLLAPSE="Summary"]
Advantages
-Falco is lightweight, allowing Zelda to make earlier-than-average KOs compared to other characters.
-Falco's recovery is terribad. Take advantage of this.

Disadvantages
-Completely out-camps Zelda with his lasers.
-Falco's gameplay makes approaching extremely difficult.
-At earlier percentages, Falco has a chaingrab on Zelda.


Things to Keep in Mind
-Falco's jab is godlike. As if approaching Falco wasn't hard enough, his jab shuts down Zelda. By SDI-ing out of his jab upwards, you get a 20 frame advantage on Falco. By SDI-ing behind, there's a 14 frame advantage.
-Falco is one of the few characters with a DACUS. Expect this when you're at kill percentages. Buffered DACUS comes out quick, so watch out for this as well.
-Falco's chaingrab (done at early percent) can result in a spiking dair. Before this, DI towards the stage. If done correctly, you have a 7 frame advantage to respond with a guaranteed down smash.
-Falco's forward smash is powerful, and a sweetspot that is actually behind the character. Be careful. Moves such as Nayru's Love can outspace it but use sparingly.
-Falco's Phantasm can be difficult to deal with. Counter with multi-hit moves or long lasting moves to counter this. Some examples are forward smash and up tilt.
-When Zelda's in the air, expect back and down airs. They have a lot of priority.
-Falcos will space with their forward tilt. It is quick and safe on shield.


Random Facts
-Did you know this matchup discussion resulted in some of the most drama, infractions, and bans the Zelda boards have ever seen?

Stage Selection

Ban
-Lylat Cruise
-Brinstar
-Halberd

Counterpick

-Battlefield
-Smashville
-Final Destination
[/COLLAPSE]

Marth is up.
 

AlanHaTe

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-Falco's chaingrab (done at early percent) can result in a spiking dair. Before this, DI towards the stage. If done correctly, you have a 7 frame advantage to respond with a guaranteed down smash.
I just think you should've put SDI towards the stage, instead of just DI. And to mention that our Dsmash will only work if we don't go into the bouncing animation (which should be before 40% iirc. Probably tech > tech roll could work if we have more % .

-Falco's Phantasm can be difficult to deal with. Counter with multi-hit moves or long lasting moves to counter this. Some examples are forward smash and up tilt.
Also here the important thing is the invincibility it has, make sure to mention this as well.


For the random facts remember we can Dthrow spike him at the right ledge in BF
 

GodAtHand

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I've never played an EXCELLENT Marth. I have played some good ones but they usually don't fully understand the matchup. I am going to APEX soon if you want me to try to find someone to play and get some matchup talk going on I can try that.
 

Alacion

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I've never played an EXCELLENT Marth. I have played some good ones but they usually don't fully understand the matchup. I am going to APEX soon if you want me to try to find someone to play and get some matchup talk going on I can try that.
That would be really awesome :)
 

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Double posting in ur threads.
:phone:

I think this WOULD be -2 if Marth didn't have a guranteed escapre from out up smash :/.
Without being able to reliable kill Marth with up smash OR side smash it kinda limits our options.
The rest of our kill moves don't really have the hit boxes to compete with his spacing game.
LKs are very hard to land due to his range and D smash comes out too low to be used OOS.

I think in this match you sort of have to trick the Marth into sloppy approaching so Zelda can land some of her attacks on him.
Ideally I would try running away and camping with Din's so he approaches but be very careful at mid range. Marth has legit airspeed and if you try to use Din's at mid range its very likely that hell be able to f air through the entire move and punish Zelda :/.
Try your best to stay grounded in this match, Marth pretty much destroys Zelda when she's in the air.
Most Marths approach with s hopped f airs and n airs from the air, just try to shield these because none of Zelda's moves will beat them out if the Marth spaces them(even the amazing f tilt Scary).
From the ground Marth can harass Zelda with DB, F tilt and d tilt, while these aren't as safe as his aerials I'm pretty sure Zelda can't punish them either(lol 12 frame shield grab).
Be very careful of the range between you and Marth, most of his moves are pretty weak knock back wise un tippered but when he does hit with the tip a majority of them can kill Zelda prett early.
At Brainshock I was sort of sandbagging a Marth because I was at like 95 and he was around 125 and he landed a tippered n air and killed me :/.
Another thing is watch your shield, Marth can easily and safely pressure Zelda's shield because she can't punish him and when your shield gets lowered he can break it with Shield Breaker(w/e its called).
I think its sort of a gimmick but Mike was able to break my shield with it, so maybe switch up between spot dodging and shielding.

A hard part of this MU could be killing if the Marth constantly escapes u smash, none of the Marths I've played seemed to be aware of it though so I was able to kill with it reliable.
Do note though, every time Marth shields u smash he gets a free Dolphin Slash which pretty much always puts Zelda in a bad position around mid/high percents.
It's not very strong but it's a nice punish, so use u smash smartly if the Mart catches on to this.

I'd give it -3, a good Marth that is aware of Zelda's limitations will make things very hard for her, she doesn't really have anythiing going for her in this match especially since her most reliable kill move is invalid.

I like to CP FD or SV simple for the space and it works better for the running away strategy.

I'd bad Brinstar for obvious reasons and BF due to the lack of space.

Also I'm supposed to play a MM with Mike @ Apex since we only got two matches in last time so ill have more info then.
Praying he never reads this post though.
:phone:
 

Alacion

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Eugh... new matchup chart is out. Falcon even with Zelda... Ganondorf and Bowser have the same MU ratios...

Btw, good post Fuujin.
 

KuroganeHammer

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No, it's -4 guys. x_x

We can't do anything about fair or f-smash. Our most reliable kill move is invalidated, which leaves us with d-smash for the kill, which will be ridiculously stale due to overusage.

Added that it won't kil until 150% if the opponent know how to DI.

GG. lol
 

Alacion

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The point is we need to knock some sense into the Zeldas over at AiB.

There is no way Zelda is even with ICs, lol.
 

Alacion

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Okay I'm going to update this on the 2nd or 3rd and *finally* move on to the next character. Sorry for the lack of updates.

Hopefully Riot can give us some more insight on the Marth MU after APEX.
 

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Still bad MUs for her lol, I just find it funny that Falco and ZSS are almost as bad as Olimar for her. I need some DEHF, Nick Riddle/Salem to play against, but they'll have to do a lot of work on me for me think Olimar's not that much worse for her, when I'm literally in an Olimar infested region

And I agree with ICs not being even or -1. It's a terrible MU for her, especially on lovely FD
 

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Olimar is her worst MU if you ask me :(. There's no way to block his attacks and they always beat yours. I always have to resort to Ness with Olimar's and even then they give me a hard time.
 

Fuujin

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Double posting in ur threads.
I posted in the other thread about the Marth MU, I was lucky enough to play two really good Marths.
Let me know if there's anything you need me to contribute to the MU description.
 

Alacion

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Wow I am terrible. Will update this thread as soon as I have time to!!
 

AlanHaTe

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Marth is always the one that will approach in this MU, there's no way he will make us approach. The thing is that his aggro playstyle is extremely good, and there are very few things Zelda can do about it.

Fsmash will only work if he is on the ground but that doesn't happen too often, and using it to counter his aerials is a very bad idea because it will simply not work, we will trade his full damage with like 1 or 2% from our Fsmash(if it actually hits tho)

his spacing tools, Fair, Dtilt, Ftilt and Jab(?), can be punished depending on the situation and spacing.

Fair is mostly used rising, or even landing, but that second option isn't that usual, rising Fair can be dealt with Up angled Ftilt(super hard imo because of timing and spacing), if shielded a rising Nair should do something I guess, and Usmash. To actually do this we have to mess up his spacing as Marth will generally do it going backwards or even bait us going in and then retreating. Landing Fair has some lag and we can grab it(I don't remember if it has to be PSed), but watch where you are because if not we will get punished.

Dtilt can and will only be punishable is PSed and the only thing that could do may be a Dsmash or Dtilt (?)

Ftilt and jab could be grabbed I guess but I don't know exactly what we could do, as the Marths I have played have never ever Used those moves ._.

Usmash could be a viable move in this MU if only Marth didn't pop out so retardedly easy :c

Dtilt locks to Dsmash can be nice in this MU to put him in bad positions and then punish a bad recovery. But always do it in the right percents(somewhere between 55% to 65%) because if we do it too soon he will be able to escape with a Dolphin Slash(invincibility frames from 1 to 6 iirc). We could bait that Dolphin Slash by instead of keeping the Dtilts going just shield, and then BAM a kick in the face or Uair or Utilt!(Look out if there are any platforms to punish accordingly)

Just look out for how he's coming back to the stage, they can normally bait(is that the right word?) the edge hog, by doing a sideB and wait until our invincibility frames run off and then do their Dolphin Slash. If you successfully edgehog a Dolphin Slash wait until he's falling helpless to the abyss and he isn't close to the edge, as he stays there for about half a second and if we leave the edge too soon it will be like if nothing happened. I don't think I have to write what to do if he recovers too high lol

His airdodge isn't very good, so it should be kind of easy to bait and punish.

The third hit of his dancing blade can be punished if shielded, the Marths told me a frame 6 grab is needed to do that, we don't have that, but he have Dmash, Dtilt, rising Bair and Nair, even Nayru's Love these moves should work fine. It is supposed to be SDIable by QCDIing away from Marth(we could use DSSDI to make it easier I guess).

Stage wise, I guess BF isn't a very good idea, unless he spends more time on the platforms than us. Frigate Orpheon may be fine if we know the stage perfectly and don't screw up that often so he is the that get gimped and not us lol

definitely a -3
 

Darkmusician

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I won't speak for all of the AiB Zelda players, but majority of the ones that I've seen post are not worth trying to reason with. They've been like that since I used to go there. It's best to leave them be.

Marth is -3 no question.

Olimar and MK are equally bad match ups for different reasons. I don't believe that one is significantly worse than the other.
 

Alacion

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Ah I am sorry guys I will update this soon I promise. This has been a very hectic week for me as I am taking 7 courses (4 full, 6 half) this semester and had my schedule completely changed so there is a lot of catching up to do.

DarkMusician posting what is this I don't even... Nice to see you here!!
 

Alacion

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:marth: Marth -3 (Large Disadvantage)

[COLLAPSE="Summary"]
Advantages
-None?

Disadvantages
-Marth completely outspaces Zelda
-Tippers devastate an already easy-to-kill character
-Marth is one of three characters that can consistently escape Zelda's up smash

Things to Keep in Mind
-Watch your spacing!
-Marth's major pressuring move on Zelda will be the forward air. Try to powershield this move.
-If Marth misses with many of his moves, it leaves him open to punishment.
-Zelda outcamps Marth causing Marth to approach, however he has excellent approaching options making things difficult for Zelda.
-Marth excels more than Zelda does in the air, and outspaces her as well so rely more on Zelda's ground game.
-Dancing Blade racks up damage and applies pressure. By holding upwards when it first begins there is a chance to escape and punish. The third hit can be power shielded and punished... take advantage of this!
-Beware of Marth's Shield Breaker. Charging it only increases damage and knockback - the Shield Breaking (80% of shield) remains constant. It can also be used to give Marth a boost while recovering. Power shielding still works, however.
-Marth's Dolphin Slash is very quick and can deal very high knockback. Be careful not to be hit by this while recovering. Also used as a panic move.
-Marth has a less than idea air dodge. Bait and punish!


Stage Selection

Counterpicks
A large stage is recommended so Zelda can more easily keep her distance and maintain spacing.

-Final Destination
-Smashville

Stage Bans
-Brinstar
-Battlefield
[/COLLAPSE]

How's this guys? Any errors or things to add?


Also, our grab release to lightning kicked friend, Wario, is up!
 

KuroganeHammer

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Watching our spacing vs Marth is staying as close to him as possible. Staying out of his range means that we're still not in range to hit him.

We need to keep out of the tipper range at the very least, which isn't easy since Marth moves so fast.

Also baiting air dodges from Marth is almost impossible. He can almost always cover himself with fair or double jump/dancing blade.

I'll contribute to Wario later.

I'd say just run around up-smashing his dair approaches and hope you don't get hit. Then spam dash grab and hope you can fair him.
 

Mocha

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For Wario, we have at least 3 grab release follow-ups on him:

Grab Release -> Fair
Grab Release -> Upsmash
Grab Release -> Uptilt

Good Warios won't get grabbed often though, since grab releases on them are abused so much in general. His f-smash has armor, but the cooldown is punishable if it doesn't push your shield too much. His nair is a great move and will eat Din's Fire. Down air has a lot of hits and can be tricky to shield. Watch out for up air drops through platforms. As for grabbing him, I find it easiest to do it after I jab him, or after shielding his down smash and upsmash (which are bad moves and probably won't be used much anyway).

He can use his bike pieces at you as well, however remember you have your own shanninigans you can pull off with glide tossing. Also remember that when Wario's bike is on stage, he can't recover very well, so this could be a free edgehog for you.
 

KuroganeHammer

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lol Wario's d-smash is hilarious. It could be worse than Ivysaur's.

His up-smash is okay. Can be DI'd out of though.
 
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