Nayru's Oracle: The Official Zelda Matchup Thread! Currently Discussing: Peach

[Mocha]

Yeah just don't be close to the top on RC and die at like 60 from his Upsmash lol.
Or gimp yourself with your own recovery

 

[Fuujin]

Mocha have you tried n air on yellow pikmin?
It usually takes twice the time to get rid of them than it does other pikmin.

 

[Alacion]

If you use Nair just before landing on the ground, it'll still shake 'em off.

 

[Mocha]

It's more reliable than using any of her other electrical moves though. It's also her most reliable aerial to get rid of pikmin in general (except purple). Even if you do get rid of them with her other aerials, they will stale, and you don't want to stale your kill moves.

 

[PKNintendo]

Oof made a mistake

 

[AyatoK26]

Not an aerial but I find D-tilt useful for pikmin removal anyways. I always try to stale my D-tilt as much as possible.

Moving on to Pika, if there's anything you should know about pika is this:

Don't take Pika to PS1, ever.

Why you ask? Here's what pika can do to you on each transformation:

Normal: Not so much cause the layout's pretty neutral, but it's a little big so pika can QAC away after you get too close to him

Fire: You will get the **** camped outta you once he gets the % lead. Don't approach at all if he's under the tree.

Grass: Not so bad. Best transformation imo. Can't camp as much, plus he can't QAC > double jump N-air you while you're on the second platform if he's on the bottom. Beware of Thunder though.

Water: He will windmill camp the **** outta you when he gets the % lead. Approaching will make it worse. Doesn't help that he can crawl under the wings and you can't.

Rock: See Fire. Only replace "tree" with "rock". Gimmicky but you can get a guaranteed D-tilt lock on the middle if he's not camping like he should be doing.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on anything.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Pikachu is very good on PS1, so he is at moving or big stages like PS2, RC, Siege, or LC, if they know what they are doing.
He's not that good at flat ones tho, specially because the CG against Zelda is really short.
And Brinstar is Pikachu's worst stage, try to use the hittable terrain to extend your hitboxes and block jolts.

Other than stages I can't give any tip here really, local Pikachu is ages better than me and I feel I know nothing about the MU.

That said, it is hilarious how he can send a jolt and make Zelda struggle against it as if it were another opponent lol

 

[AlanHaTe]

To be honest I don't remember anything from this MU... I have only played two good Pikachus and that's it...

watch out for Uair(done OoS if Pika's back is turning to you, so expect it) > footstool > QALock > kill move or anything. Uair cambos into itself and Nair.

he can slide back after his Dtilt, not very used I think, but it's still there.

I don't really know how I played those Pikas... let me think a time and I may post something not so random

 

[Fluttershy]

Actually the slide from Dtilt is very useful for spacing Fsmash. It's stronger closer to Pika than the ball at the end.

Pika will usually use Fair closer to the ground since its has the shortest amount of lag. if it uses anything else try to punish. Dair has an extra hitbox when Pikachu hits the ground

You should DI up with Dsmash.

When Pika is recoverying abuse Din's. it stops Skull Bash and pika has a higher chance to get hit when he is using Quick Attack because his Hurtboxes are extended.

 

[Alacion]

I like how nobody talks about Pika's broken up smash >_>

Combos from his fthrow at early percents. Best way to escape it is love jumping imo, but it's still hard since that combo is nearly guaranteed.

Not only does up smash kill at early percents, but even if you DI it Pika can still techchase a thunder.

Got a "Top 5" Pika in my area but he's like... the campiest player I have ever played... EVER. But yeah after some extreme persuasion from him, I'm inclined to say the matchup is a LOT closer to -1 (if not) than -3 (I can even take a game off him with Zelda! ). Zelda just has to deal with the camping which sucks!

 

[Yuniverse]

Wait....which pika? Captain L?

 

[Fuujin]

Only good Pikachu I've played was K Prime and this was at friendlies, but I think it's -2.
I honestly dunno what all to say about this MU since I'm not that good at it.
I guess always DI out of d smash.
Don't try to gimp Pikachu lol
watch out for Q attack canceling

Esam said it's -2 though.

 

[ぱみゅ]

lol, no board seems to have a decent Pikachu MU discussion, everyone is like "I don't play the MU often" or "IDK a lot about the MU", it's like Pika knowledge is always avoiding other characters.

 

[Alacion]

Wait....which pika? Captain L?

He's the one.

 

[Cassio]

I guess Ill help since youre looking for some info.

Back in the day this used to be considered a bad MU for pika. Things have obv changed as pikas moved up and zelda down, but theres still a fundamental difficulty zelda gives pika compared to her low tier peers. Her dtilt lock can wrack up quite a bit of damage, nayrus love and dins fire shut down pikas ability to projectile camp (though he can still run away), and her smashes intercept and punish QA better than anyone in the cast I can think of atm. She also has nice damage output per hit and is one of the few characters that can kill pika sorta early.

One quick note about jolt spam, it should be easy to punish even for zelda. Nyrus love is ok, and you can din fire it + pika if theyre close enough, but even better is to inch closer until you can power shield it then rush in and punish the start-up with pretty much anything. Smart pikas will stop once they notice youre getting close, but occasionally you can catch them off guard or destroy the ones that dont adapt. At the very least any of those options should stop annoying jolt spam.

Now some downsides, connecting an attack on pikachu isnt nearly as rewarding as the reverse. Pikachu is pretty good at escaping juggles and pressure, while going to town on anyone else that finds themselves in the air, offstage, or under pressure/after being hit in general. It also makes killing pika a pain. However this is also assuming youre playing someone who can capitalize on such situations. Finding ways to return to neutral is rather important since its the best way to prevent pika from hitting you.

On top of that landing hits and approaching pika in general is a bit difficult. Pika has a difficult time getting in on zelda as well, but not as bad. Watch for him to stand at about midrange and bait moves to try and punish. However if their approaches are erratic/rushed when youre at neutral theres a good chance you can punish them for some heavy damage. One important but frequently forgotten aspect of pika is his small size which makes him difficult to hit. This is important beyond lightning kicks, you have to be aware of his hurtbox or a whiffed attack will mean half your stock or more.

tl;dr: In terms of MU specific traits theyre about even or maybe even slight Zelda advantage, the advantage for pika may sound rather basic but essentially it boils down to his ability to land hits and do more damage per string. The better the pika the more these qualities will stand out. Zeldas gameplay will rely on trying to tack on damage while trying to avoid being hit above everything else, made difficult by the fact that pika can approach zelda than the reverse (although be sure to watch him and attempt to keep him out).

Likely pika should be winning this MU most of the time, but if youre on your A game its possible to win once in awhile, or if youre simply better than your opponent you should win. Ven and Z both live in vegas and have videos up as well, so you can get an idea of the MU from there. On occasion ven is able to pull a win.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

That was really well put Cassio.

 

[Fuujin]

Her dtilt lock can wrack up quite a bit of damage,

nayrus love and dins fire shut down pikas ability to projectile camp

power shield it then rush in and punish the start-up with pretty much anything.


theyre about even or maybe even slight Zelda advantage

wat

10chars

 

[Cassio]

Her dtilt lock can wrack up quite a bit of damage,
Maybe Im missing relevant info, but cant zelda combo multiple dtilts > another move on pika at lower percents?

nayrus love and dins fire shut down pikas ability to projectile camp

power shield it then rush in and punish the start-up with pretty much anything.
Jolt isnt very good when its spammed, every character in the game should be able to punish it in that situation. Its sort of ok at forcing approaches but not against opponents with reflectors.

theyre about even or maybe even slight Zelda advantage
Thats not my opinion of the MU overall. As the pika becomes proficient at approaching and pressuring her in bad situations/preventing her from returning to neutral the MU is +2 pika. However the MU should likely feel a bit easier until the pika reaches a certain level.

Responses in red.

As for stages, I dont really think it matters too much. Pika is proficient on all stages barring Brinstar which he'll likely ban (if he doesnt then CP him there). I think a stage that might help her recover would be good (harder to gimp on delfino/SV/CS part 2), or maybe a place that extends her hitbox on smashes (cs). Otherwise Id just go for what youre comfortable with.

 

[Veggie123]

Her dtilt lock can wrack up quite a bit of damage,
Maybe Im missing relevant info, but cant zelda combo multiple dtilts > another move on pika at lower percents?

nayrus love and dins fire shut down pikas ability to projectile camp

power shield it then rush in and punish the start-up with pretty much anything.
Jolt isnt very good when its spammed, every character in the game should be able to punish it in that situation. Its sort of ok at forcing approaches but not against opponents with reflectors.

theyre about even or maybe even slight Zelda advantage
Thats not my opinion of the MU overall. As the pika becomes proficient at approaching and pressuring her in bad situations/preventing her from returning to neutral the MU is +2 pika. However the MU should likely feel a bit easier until the pika reaches a certain level.

You've got the right understanding of dtilt, but the best time to use it is during mid percentages where Zelda has frame advantage while keeping her opponent grounded. If the opponent is too high %, they'll be popped up. If too low, they have enough time to shield/roll away/jump/etc. Of course the exact numbers vary per character and is affected by the staleness of dtilt, but that's just the gist of it.

I personally don't have a ton of trouble dealing with tjolts, but there are situations where using Nayru's love against it is more detrimental vs shielding. It's punishable as Zelda, but you'd need to be freakishly close since her movement speed is quite underwhelming.

And yeah. the matchup doesn't seem that bad until you've realized Pikachu has been sneaking all these hits in. That said though, do any other Zelda players have an easy time avoiding Pikachu's thunder? Maybe I'm not playing the best Pikas around, but I seem pretty decent at avoiding it while in the air as long as I'm not flying straight above him.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Zelda has good air mobility and a fantastic Air Dodge, I would not be surprised if she's good at avoiding Thunder

 

[AlanHaTe]

Zelda's airdodge isn't that good. It's one of those airdodges that have this data:
4-29 / 49 Zelda
(invincibility/end of animation)
the best airdodges end at 39. So it's not that good... At leats it's not peach's tho

 

[Mocha]

I personally don't like her air dodge. You're better off up b'ing away from thunder, or even reflecting it. Just watch out for him baiting your Nayru's and punishing. If you do happen to air dodge his thunder, then air dodge away from it, not into it. I know it sounds like common sense but the move has a somewhat lasting duration.

 

[AlanHaTe]

yeah, that may save us, because in the case our airdodge ends we'll be DI'ing away from it and it won't kill us from the top blast zone...

I really don't remember the testing we did to know where to DI it but iirc that's the right way to DI that thing

 

[Mocha]

I sometimes have to DI with air dodge when fighting Pikachu because when he knocks me vertically and I DI with Dair/Bair, I'll have to suffer cooldown of my DI move + reacting fast enough to avoid his thunder.

 

[AlanHaTe]

why do you use Dair?!?

Bair is the good option afaik

 

[Alacion]

Bair is faster by 8 frames, but if you dair, you're also cancelling your vertical momentum since you should be holding down your dpad.

 

[Mocha]

I alternate between down air and back air. I don't know, I just feel like she lives longer sometimes with down air in a vertical trajectory.

 

[Alacion]

I use random aerials all the time! Spices things up

 

[AlanHaTe]

I don't think that works like that... but I could be wrong :/

The thing I know is that after the aerial(which should be the fastest ending one) a fast fall should be the inmediate next thing to do. That mainly when we're sent to the upper part of the screen.

If we're talking about a horizontal trajectory, Bair > FF > Reverse NL would be our best shot, or even an airdodge instead of NL if you're feeling like you could make it wrong

 

[JigglyZelda003]

ignoring specifics of DI and fastest aerial people use Dair sometimes for the same reason Mocha does with other characters. i've seen Foxs do it i know i do sometimes.

 

[Mocha]

Reverse Nayru's Love Momentum Canceling is something I definitely need to work on. I've gotten myself killed more by accidentally buffering Din's Fire instead, or a premature Farore's Wind - and both used off stage is essentially... death.

 

[AlanHaTe]

it's not that hard for me somehow

the way I do it is ny pressing B, and instantly after y turn de stick to the side I'm being launches(left or right), that way you shouldn't buffer any weird stuff because the direction input is activated after pressing B

hope this helps ^^ b

 

[Alacion]

Somebody take over this thread for me please~

 

[Fuujin]

if you take over the tournament results thread for me

 

[Alacion]

I don't want to manage any threads here anymore.

 

[Mocha]

Did something happen Courier? o:

I don't mind helping out, but I'm going to see what others want first

 

[Alacion]

Nah I'm just not updating the threads anymore due to laziness but the threads need activity and deserve somebody willing to update them.

 

[Alacion]

Bleh...

Pikachu -2 (Medium Disadvantage)
[COLLAPSE="Summary"]
Advantages
-Due to her light weight and floatiness, Zelda is immune to both Pikachu's down and forward chain throws.
-Zelda can kill earlier than most other characters despite Pikachu's fast falling and excellent momentum cancelling though it is difficult to land at times.

Disadvantages
-Pikachu's camping game is better than Zelda's, forcing her approach.
-Pikachu is quick and small, which makes it difficult for Zelda to land attacks.
-Pikachu is able to land combos which are difficult to escape.
-Pikachu has good Star KO options, as well as set-ups into them.


Things to Keep in Mind
-The first thing Zelda will encounter is Pikachu's camping game. Powershielding is very useful here!
-Next, Pikachus love to forward throw to up smash at early percents! With excellent buffering/timing, Zelda can escape the up smash with a Love Jump.
-Thunder is an excellent edgeguard move. Be sure not to get hit by it right beside Pikachu - it has broken knockback.
-Thunder is often used as a follow up to a connected down smash, up smash, or up tilt for a KO. Try to predict this and DI, and time your airdodge. Don't be predictable with your DI either.
-Pikachu can approach with his quick mobility and Quick Attack cancelling.
-Another approach is Pikachu's down air. Possible counters to this are her up smash or up tilt.
-You can easily DI out of Pikachu's down smash by holding up. Try to tech the landing.
-Pikachus love going for forward smash hard reads, especially after throws. Be careful!
-Watch out for Pikachu's footstool to quick attack. It'll cause Zelda to "flop" on the ground. It forces her to uncontrollably get up, allowing Pikachu to land any move on her. Pikachu's jab can also do this.
-Din's Fire will stop Skull Bash's momentum. Be sure to use this against a recovering Pikachu.
-If Zelda's up smash isn't stale, don't use it for the kill until 12X%. Pikachu is a fast faller, and lives much longer than you'd think.
-Zelda is able to "reflect" Pikachu's Thunder with Nayru's Love because it is a projectile. It can be helpful if Pikachu uses Thunder on the ground where he will be guaranteed to be hit by the attack.

Random Facts
-Zelda actually has a better chance against Pikachu than Sheik due to Pikachu's chaingrab.


Stage Selection

Counterpicks
-Yoshi's Island
-Castle Siege

Stage Bans
-Pokemon Stadium 1
-Halberd[/COLLAPSE]

Due to special demand, is up next.

 

[Fluttershy]

How Peachy

Turnips
atleast we have a long glide-toss

 

[Fuujin]

I think holding a turnip actually makes this MU worse...