Nayru's Oracle: The Official Zelda Matchup Thread! Currently Discussing: Peach

[Alacion]

@courier Brinstar should be listed a CP for diddy as for that write up it really irks me.

Can you explain why on both counts?

 

[Mocha]

Snake's F-tilt.

Btw Courier, sent you something on AiB regarding the Snake MU

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Can you explain why on both counts?

Brinstar is a pretty poor stage for Diddy kong. Since he controls the ground and the lava rises which can disrupt his ground control. Since the stage isn't level I believe this also cause diddy some problems with his nana's. As for how it helps Zelda I believe the platforms any stage with platforms are good for Zelda. The lava can save you from some gimps. Lava combos and the low blast zones. You also can recover from virtually anywhere with Zelda since you can through the bottom.

I think the reason why the guide is irk me is because it's lacking in detail and some of the things you put I find to be false or any over exaggerating or an over simplification. I think MU's should at least attempt to touch on the different phases of the game and you don't talk about any of them. Oh yeah the CP thing I'm almost 100% certain that the stages you've listed as CP's are ones that Diddy Kong will take you himself. I would def try to stay away from all flat stages and go to a stage that either transforms or has slopes and stuff. In the end it won't matter however, you want to at least get the diddy to a place where he's uncomfortable especially if you're comfortable on that stage.

@Mocha if we're discussing the snake MU here can you plz post it here you have one if not the best snake (in the us) in your region. I'm unsure if you've guys have played in tourney or friendlies or not at all however, I'd like to read what you have to say on the MU as opposed to PM's on AiB. If you don't want to post it here though that's understandable however, it'd be helpful overall if more of the few tourney Zelda's we have post. So that includes Scary and Riot (who prob has more snake EXP than you since MA is crawling with snakes). So it'd be nice to see what you guys have to say also scary should have some solid snake experience if he's ever played afrothundah.

 

[Alacion]

You can always make suggestions?

 

[Mocha]

@Mocha if we're discussing the snake MU here can you plz post it here you have one if not the best snake (in the us) in your region. I'm unsure if you've guys have played in tourney or friendlies or not at all however, I'd like to read what you have to say on the MU as opposed to PM's on AiB. If you don't want to post it here though that's understandable however, it'd be helpful overall if more of the few tourney Zelda's we have post. So that includes Scary and Riot (who prob has more snake EXP than you since MA is crawling with snakes). So it'd be nice to see what you guys have to say also scary should have some solid snake experience if he's ever played afrothundah.

Sure, I can post here. Yeah Ultimate Razer's Snake is amazing, but I have yet to play him. He's always playing a tourney match or getting swamped with friendlies, kinda like M2K. If I go to Hobo 34 I'll see if I can sneak in some friendlies with him, or who knows, we may even be in the same bracket.

I did play Havok's Snake though at Lone Star Circuit couple of weeks ago, and he's one of the best Snakes I've played (so far). I'll provide more input in time, just trying to get my head out of Skyward Sword for a bit to refocus on Brawl, though I really want to finish the game hehe.

Oh and the reason I PM'd Courier was because he wanted to see some matches vs Snake, but I had already put those on the video thread anyway. There's nothing secret about fighting Snake that I wouldn't want to share with any of you lol. Or about Zelda in general. No one knew how to deal with the walls on Yoshi's Island for Zelda's recovery, and when NinjaLink explained to me how to do it, I had no problem letting the rest of the Zeldas know.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I just strike/ban Yoshi's against everyone but Ness. lawl

 

[AlanHaTe]

No one knew how to deal with the walls on Yoshi's Island for Zelda's recovery, and when NinjaLink explained to me how to do it, I had no problem letting the rest of the Zeldas know.

is there a secret besides not to be there when recovering or moving away from them?! o_o

 

[KuroganeHammer]

is there a secret besides not to be there when recovering or moving away from them?! o_o

I am interested as well.

 

[Mocha]

Alright basically it's this...

If you're right up against the walls on Yoshi's Island and you have to recover with Zelda, do not angle your recovery in any direction. So for example, if you need to recover diagonally and you're next to the walls, don't aim it diagonally.

Instead what you want to do is simply 'up b' and barely brush up against the 'up' direction on the control stick. What this does is it causes Zelda to recover straight up. The nice thing about it is that the walls will not eat your jump when you do this. Result will be Zelda sliding up along the wall. Be careful with people edgehogging you in this, because it's viable when Zelda is forced to recover so low next to the wall.

With more complicated angles of recovering then your best hope is to try and land as far up and away from the wall as you can.

If you guys want to practice this with me on wi-fail, I'll be happy to show you and try to help

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Being 17000 kms away poses q problem for wi-fail practise, but Imma try this later today.

Thanks Mocha. <3

 

[Mocha]

You're welcome : ) hope it helps

 

[AlanHaTe]

oh that sounds weird, I didn't fully get it... I'll give it a try later or some day...

----------------------------------------

well, snake...

to be honest I really HATE this MU, it's just so hard that it isn't even funny...

first, EACH AND EVERY SINGLE THING snake has can kill, and we being Zelda, have to be extremely careful and try to take as less damage as possible.

Grenades - ridiculous projectile, as we all know he has the hability to "make you" drop them, so if you think of catching them to throw them back be sure that you're throwing the second one. Also there are times when you "catch" one that snake doesn't make you drop it, it just randomly drops, I have no idea why and/or how this happens, but just happens.

Ftilt - As we all should know his Ftilt is just ridiculous, it has a huge disjointed(?) hitbox, and it only deals 20+%, this will probably be used for damage racking and spacing tool AKA GTFO move. Only a PS can help us do something about it, if you don't PS just don't bother trying to punish, it pushes retardedly far away to make it safe for him and it has very little lag. Or you can also SDI the knee to go behind him, I can't so it consistently, but if you can do it good for you.
EDIT: spot dodging the second tilt may help us punish, but I don't know exactly how safe it is.

Utilt - This is snake's TM kill move, again, this move has a more than ridiculous hitbox, it's supossed to have a sourspot, but it doesn't really matter, it will kill us anyway. Watch out if you're trying to Nair cancel as this move will beat Nair. Again only a PS will allow us to punish, if you don't PS it don't even think about trying to go punish, because he'll just do another Utilt and you should know what will happen. DI this behind snake.

Dtilt, snakes barely use this move, but if he does it be careful of the Utilt coming right after this, it has super good IASA.

Bair/Uair - kind of the same move, only diferences are the position snake takes, probably frame data(they're both very fast) knockback direction, and aerial lag, Uair having much less aerial lag than Bair. Another ridiculous moves snake's whole body hits, with the exception of his head. Bair's lag shouldn't be understimated, this "lag" still hits, so think it twice before doing something risky and badly spaced.

Dair - used most probably to punish our recovery landing, dealing around 30%. I don't know where to SDI this move to not get hit by every hit, but they say it's possible.

Nair - mostly used for mindgaming, edgeguarding or even to "recover". Mindgaming? yeah you read it right, the thing is that he can do it with a double jump, fall with NO lag and then do whatever he wants.

Grab/Throws - his grab is amazing, get ready to get a lot of these, or do something to not get grabbed. F/BThrow may kill us, Uthrow is rarely used, and Dthrow is that horrible tech chase, here we can only rely on mixing up the options we have and being unpredictable, Zelda has long rolls, but it's almost worth nothing because of Ftilt's range.

Dsmash - stage controll too. if this bothers you and it's close to you just walk to it and PS it, it's super easy.

Dash attack/DACUS - annoying as hell. In my experience fighting snakes, they use this to run away and keep throwing nades to me, or as an approach, it also picks up the nades, so he get at your face at high speed with a nade ready to explode in any case. If he just uses his Dash attack and we do something to not get hit, be careful as it also has very little lag.
------

Now what should we do.

Play it with extreme patience, and PERFECT spacing. I guess we want to mixup bieng close, far, mid distance.

Far away will lead to a grenade storm and Din's storm, both being kind of useless, but maybe forcing some approach, with the nades being more efective for obvious reasons but still Din's isn't that bad here as it can stop the nades or detonate it, so be wise with this.

Mid/close - here's when the tilting begins, I honestly don't know what to put here, without being vague. Shield 'em, dodge'em, mix up some grabs, etc.

The objective is to put him airborne/off stage and keep him there as much as possible. There's where he'll eat most damage, be careful of not always using Usmash of the same thing to keep him there, as he can get down with a nade and we'll just blow it up eating both the damage, and us having more trouble to land safely thanks to Zelda's horrible fall speed. Snakes generally use some Breversed nade pull out to fool us and land successfully, keep and eye on that, the bad thing I noticed just yesterday about that is that his air speed is superior to our running speed(or at least that's what it looked like) making it harder for us to catch him.

If we ever put him in a low offstage position abuse that as much as you can to kill him or make him eat a lot of damage, go and footstool him when he detonates the C4, spike him, etc. If we get an early kill that can make it much much better for us, but still we'll have to play super safe because he has no trouble coming back as he racks damage/kills retardedly fast.




tl;dr : don't get exploded, be patient and hope for an opening.

-4

that's what I could think of as of right now, just after my "snake training" which was like useless. I really hate snake and this MU. To be honest MK is far easier for me than snake.

 

[Fuujin]

I think it's -4.

Snake and Zelda are both ground oriented characters but Snake does a much better job at practically everything Zelda wishes she could do.
None of her moves are really safe against him other than Din's fire.
She can't kill him too easily (a good Snake won't leave himself open for a sweet spotted LK) even though he's tall.
He can kill her at like 90 with up tilt.
F tilt completely shuts down her ground game, he out camps her, racks up damage faster than her.
Basically he just destroys her.
A good Snake shouldn't lost to Zelda.

 

[Fuujin]

And I was gonna say -3 just for the sake of not giving her more -4s, but this is a really, really bad MU.
A Snake who know the MU will wreck Zelda.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Guys, I'm sorry I haven't been posting at all, I've been so busy with school and finals but the semester is almost over. I'll catch up with MU information ASAP. That's a promise and a guarantee.

 

[Alacion]

It's okay, life is always more important!

Snake... does damage so quickly. Has so many ways to give us a hard time be it f-tilt or grenade walls and so much more... he forces Zelda to approach at all times and we usually can't benefit from any situation. Given this though, I think it's best for Zelda to jump in and hope for the best.

Kurobi wall is evil... words can not even describe... this makes me always approach against Snake. Like the grenade will explode the moment it reaches you. What do?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0drgCENQkFQ

I find that Snake is one of those chars that can escape Zelda's up smash pretty consistently. Since escaping up smash semi-spikes at times, it can be helpful if you're on the ledge and Snake has nothing to land on.

Um dacus... always expect one coming your way. Watch out for getting back on stage, Snake can plant all sorts of traps like C4 on the ledge like not on the stage but the side of the stage so even though you can't see the C4 never forget about it! Mines forcing you to jump/roll from grabbing the ledge right into an up tilt which kills at what 95%? Even his back air can kill Zelda easily when she's getting up from the ledge. Watch out for that lol.

What else... watch out for dthrow to buffered up tilt (not that you can do anything about it) and dthrow to dair (devastating!).

The last part of Snake's jab can be shielded (usually power).

Try to nab 4th port so that Snake's grenades will KB him rather than Zelda when one is grabbing the other.

Capitalize whenever Snake is off stage. He is LK bait while recovering and down tilt can spike him.

I'm gonna pull an Ed and say the MU is -3. It's really really bad but not as bad as Olimar and Meta Knight and I've been able to nab some close matches against Snake. Um suddenly I feel like the MU is -4 but I'll keep it at -3 for now.

 

[AlanHaTe]

the controller ports! I forgot about that... As I always play on that port I think it's like natural for me xD

 

[Alacion]

Snake -4 (Close to Unwinnable)

[COLLAPSE="Summary"]
Advantages
-Snake's recovery can be exploited for an early gimp.

Disadvantages
-Snake beats Zelda in all distances of play.
-Snake also beats Zelda in every other way, besides being bad.
-Snake's high damage output, and early KO moves devastate Zelda.
-When trading damage, Snake always wins.

Things to Keep in Mind
-Patience is key. Snake takes damage like a tank so chances are he'll live after whatever you can throw at him.
-Watch the damage trading. Ideally, you want to hit Snake twice as much as he hits you.
-Snake forces Zelda's approach with his grenade game. Watch your spacing (especially that up tilt when at 100%+) and mix up your moves.
-Snake excels in the ground but struggles in the air.
-Keep your eyes on the grenades. Snake loves to hold on to grenades to trade damage!
-Snake keeps maintains his mobility and pressure with DACUS. Be prepared to shield or intercept if your reads are good.
-Snake's forward tilt does ridiculous damage. Try to shield the second hit.
-Snake's up tilt kills at ridiculously low percentages. Watch your spacing.
-Snake's down throw is good for tech chasing and follow ups in general. Watch out for a buffered up tilt after a down throw.
-Snake's down and neutral airs do crazy amounts of damage. Focus on SDI-ing out of them.
-Snake's back air is good edge guarding tool for those that don't know about it. Watch out!
-Always keep an eye on Snake's C4. It lasts approximately 25 seconds and can even be hidden on the side of the ledge on stages like Battlefield.
-Snake's final jab can be power shielded somewhat easily.
-Snake applies enormous edge pressure with his down smash, C4, Nikita, and impending up tilt.
-Snake's recovery is terrible. Exploit this with a kick!

Random Facts
-Did you know that Snake players will always go for the 4th controller port? This is so Snake's grenade will always KB the opponent and not himself when one is grabbing the other.
-Down tilt can spike Snake while he is recovering. Aim for where Snake's hands are grabbing the Cypher.
[/COLLAPSE]

Can anybody help me out with stage selection and bans? (or any errors in general)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Don't pick Smashville.

 

[Alacion]

Don't pick Smashville.

Eh to be honest, I'm leaning more towards "don't pick any stage" but obviously that's not possible.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

lol

I'd say just pick Battlefield tbh. Having 3 platforms means you can at least approach from one of them if he has a mine on one and a C4 on one.

or something. I dunno.

 

[Fuujin]

lol

I'd say just pick Battlefield tbh. Having 3 platforms means you can at least approach from one of them if he has a mine on one and a C4 on one.

or something. I dunno.

Wait are you saying pick BF as a CP or as a Ban?
I wouldn't want to play Snake on BF, seeing as how his F tilt covers like 1/3rd of the Stage.

I'd try FD or SV.
I mean it's not great against Snake but you won't get ***** by f tilt...as fast as you would on BF.
Idk I just like my space against Snake.
Getting naded from far away doesn't seem as painful as constantly getting tilt *****.

Edit: Maybe Norfair wouldn't be a bad idea in this MU.
Both characters are bad in the air but Zelda could actually successfully run away in this stage and Din's camping is a little more legit there, especially because of Snake's airspeed.
I'll have to try it if I play any Snakes at APEX.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

See, I'm a bit different. I want as little space between me and Snake as possible.

I don't like grenades.

Also if you do pick Smashville, be careful of the moving platform. Snake always has a c4 on it.

 

[Alacion]

Hm, wouldn't BF platforms be good for Snake to up tilt?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

assuming we're on them, yeah.

Simple fix, don't be on the platform above snake.

 

[Alacion]

Next up: Falco.

I hate that bird.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

-3

Was gonna say -4, since imo it's worse than Snake, but I don't really agree with the Snake one so w/e.

k, so lasers are the most annoying things ever. Be prepared to take 120% damage and deal 30% in return, simply trying to approach.

Hopeless matchup imo.

Zelda has killing power going for her, but like, yeah that's about it.

Zelda simply cannot punish a shielded Phantasm. She can try to beat it out, but that's not really that reliable.

Expect the match to go:

Falco runs away
Falco shorthop lasers
Zelda approaches
rinse repeat

Since Zelda is so slow, she simply can't catch up.

I'd personally would rather fight against Falco with only two stocks as Sheik, than with 6 stocks with Zelda.

I do have a video of me having an MM against Australia's best Falco, but it simply shows me failing so hard with Zelda its an embarrassment. lawl

 

[Alacion]

I find that utilt is good for the phantasm... or is that just me?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's too slow, so you need to predict it really well, otherwise you'll:

a) get hit
b) get shot at

 

[Fuujin]

She can try to beat it out, but that's not really that reliable.

I think up tilt is actually kinda nice for beating phantasm out, you just have to be able to time it and that can be hard since up tilt is kinda slow.
I recommend doing it while facing away from Falco so more of the hitbox is exposed to him.
D air also works really well if you time it right against phantasm and if you hit him offstage it's almost always a kill if you edge hog afterwards.

-3
Expect the match to go:
Falco runs away
Falco shorthop lasers
Zelda approaches
rinse repeat

IF the Falco doesn't know the match up.

I actually wish all Falco's played like this, then it would just be -2 imo.
The reason this match up is so bad isn't because of the camping, it's his jab.
It comes out super fast and invalidates all of Zelda close range game because it lifts her in the air.
A Falco that just walks up to you and jab cancels is a lot harder than a Falco that just runs away the entire time.
The jab makes the total difference imo.
First time I played Shugo he played like the more traditional Falco and I was able to beat him albeit he didn't know the MU.
First time I played Arty I got ***** because he knew Falco's jab > 80% Zelda's moveset.

On the plus side he's light and if you land a sweetspotted LK you can kill him very early.
Up smash and f smash work nicely too when not DI'd out of.
Up smash can chain him twice at low percentages.
Falco can't really kill to well but I think his most reliable kill move is dacus, follow by b air.
Dacus can be stopped with d tilt and punished, I don't think she can do too much about his b air.
I would rely on Zelda's power for that early kill then you can maybe try to avoid his jab and blaster spam as he'll be trying to approach.

-3 imo

Other random tidbits.
• If you get chaingrabbed and Falco goes for the spike you can DI it to land on stage.
• Nayru's beats out his F smash, but don't try to roll behind it.

all I can think of for now

Ban: Probably Lylat, Halberd, Brinstar
CP: BF, the platforms are actually nice for this imo, jab and blaster arent as much trouble here.
I'm okay with FD and SV here too.

And Cour y no images for the Characters?
There are lots of fun pictures of Zelda with all of the characters in the game.
I just think it makes things look a little better.
[COLLAPSE="Meta Knight"]

[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Diddy"]

honestly couldn't find one better than that[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Snake"]
Just a few to choose from

LOL[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Falco"]

[/COLLAPSE]

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Oh I forgot about Jab.

Doesn't really matter, trying to catch up to Falco once he has the lead is almost impossible.

useadifferentcharacter/10

 

[Alacion]

Jab really is terrible. I can't even up tilt Falco's side b anymore because everybody expects me to up tilt it!

I'll explain more stuff later when this thread begins to die :D

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I GOT SOME PICTURES FOR SNAKE AND ZELDA

Also I have one for Ganon, :o

Re: Falco's jab, it's the worst thing ever, I hate it, but I hate lasers even more soz.

Still not sure if I should make this -4 or not.

 

[Fuujin]

I GOT SOME PICTURES FOR SNAKE AND ZELDA

loooooool

Still not sure if I should make this -4 or not.

Idk honestly I think the jab is the only thing that makes it -3, I don't think its quite as bad as Snake/MK/Olimar/GnW

 

[AlanHaTe]

I'll try to add as much as I can/remember as a lot of thing were already posted...

that jab thing is 100% true, but if Falco screws up just SDI out of it and maybe you could kick him in the face or back lol (not gonna happen very often)

Falco's side B has invincibility frames on the first part of it so, if you want to punish you have to do it the second half of it. Dtilt works too iirc, but if you want the kill go for the Utilt or if you feel like doing it, intercept him with a LK and you will be famous for that (ok no).

his Bair gives some trouble, but I don't remember when they use it the most, try to not get hit by it as it can kill.

watch out for his BDACUS, that thing is very good, and you have to be careful as it can be a surprise kill move, the falcos I've played lately usually do it after a SHDL/SHL, Dthrow(you can DI up and it won't hit you, or DI away and jump, airdodge, etc to avoid the hit). Those are the most common set ups for that thing so be careful with that.

His lasers spam can be annoying but there's always a hole, also if you don't want to approach you could always PS the lasers, dodge 'em, reflect them sometimes, Idk there are options, but you ned a lot of patience.

If we ever get to put him on a super bad recovery position so he has to use UpB he's most likely dead, so keep that in mind if you ever get a Dtilt lock or something.

as fuujin already said, DON'T roll behind his Fsmash, or try to land behind it, the sweetspot of that move is behind falco and Zelda can die a horrible death very early if that happens.

I guess that's what I could think of right now.

Stages... to be honest I don't know about BF's reliability tbh, but I has to be better than say FD. Frigate Orpheon MAY work if you're super good on that stage and Falco doesn't ban it lol

I'd go BF, Brinstar, Picto chat, PS2 (not sure), YI, and maybe SV.

It definitely is a -3

 

[Fuujin]

I'd go BF, Brinstar, Picto chat, PS2 (not sure), YI, and maybe SV.

 

[AlanHaTe]

do you think it's that bad?._.

both recoveries get srewed up, but he can "hide" from the laser spam, his Dthrow to BDACUS... well his BDACUS won't be really useful here because of the "center" part of the stage, so we have 1 less worry for that surprise kill x_x

a kind of random stage pick I know, but I don't think it's THAT bad...

Just tell why you think it's that horrible, as I really can't think on many things...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Idk honestly I think the jab is the only thing that makes it -3, I don't think its quite as bad as Snake/MK/Olimar/GnW

Mmm, its worse than Snake and G&W.

Also Brinstar is a bad Zelda stage imo.

Too much dumb stuff happens.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

do you think it's that bad?._.

both recoveries get srewed up, but he can "hide" from the laser spam, his Dthrow to BDACUS... well his BDACUS won't be really useful here because of the "center" part of the stage, so we have 1 less worry for that surprise kill x_x

a kind of random stage pick I know, but I don't think it's THAT bad...

Just tell why you think it's that horrible, as I really can't think on many things...

I believe brinstar to be a great CP for Zelda and I don't believe her recovery get's screwed up by that stage at all. I believe it to be a legit CP for Zelda and a good stage to Falco because it's not one of his better stages. If you're having trouble recovering on Brinstar practice on it. You also have the lava and you can just up b and land pretty much anywhere.

The MU is -2 jab=/= make the MU bad. Bad spacing makes jab better than what it is plz space better. Thanks guys.

 

[Alacion]

Oh I didn't even notice the pictures. I'll add some in the next update.


@AL I don't think Jab is good because of bad spacing...

And to quote myself...

1) Avoid making your contribution as personal as possible. For example, you might consistently destroy Meta Knight, but that does NOT mean the matchup is +4 in Zelda's favour. Do NOT let a single victory over somebody be a basis for your contribution.

3) Please be reasonable! If the majority of people say Zelda vs. Meta Knight is -4, then try not to say the matchup is -1 unless you have a very good and justifiable reason for this.

I don't think anybody considers this matchup a -2. Please explain why.