My Recovery tier list.

[Levitas]

If the other player isn't nearby, then continue to float to the stage or edge. There's no reason to forward b. The only point for it now is if for some reason Peach is way far away where even her float and parasol won't make it back. We both know that this doesn't happen. The wallbounce rise isn't in brawl.

So this augment to peaches recovery is totally useless?

As for the reverse toad, it does give the edgeguarder more time to set up an edgeguard. You have not refuted that point. However, my original point was that the bair was LESS useful when recovering. You cannot use it in all situations that you could use it originally because you need to do a relatively slow move in order to enable its use. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said that you cannot use it while recovering.

I'm pointing out flaws in statements you're making, of course they're stupid ideas.

 

[Dark.Pch]

If the other player isn't nearby, then continue to float to the stage or edge. There's no reason to forward b. The only point for it now is if for some reason Peach is way far away where even her float and parasol won't make it back. We both know that this doesn't happen. The wallbounce rise isn't in brawl.

So this augment to peaches recovery is totally useless?

As for the reverse toad, it does give the edgeguarder more time to set up an edgeguard. You have not refuted that point. However, my original point was that the bair was LESS useful when recovering. You cannot use it in all situations that you could use it originally because you need to do a relatively slow move in order to enable its use. I'm not saying, nor have I ever said that you cannot use it while recovering.

I'm pointing out flaws in statements you're making, of course they're stupid ideas.

If I am high in the air and need to toad to turn around, it wont mean anything at all. 2 secs is all I need and you wont touch me.

And there is a Need to F-B if my enemy is not near me. I will save my Float, I am not gonna burn my float so easy when I can just F-B and still have my other recovery option(s) is I need it and Can then float if I somehow get hit or need to float for move distance to the stage. its called smart recovery.

*note: @ F-B = Faster and more distance then one float of Peach to the stage.

I suggest you know about Peach more creatively and fully before you go on saying that things have no reason to be done like that.

 

[Levitas]

You still haven't refuted my point about the bair. There will be times when you won't have time to turn around to use it, which diminishes its usefulness. That's the ONLY thing I'm arguing there. Please start to understand that, so that neither of us have to keep repeating valid statements.

The fact that FB is faster than the float (that must include wind-down lag) would be the only valid use for her forward b in recovery that you've listed yet. THE ONLY ONE.

Now, the attacks on your perception of my lack of knowledge is not appreciated. If you want to move peach up, I would suggest comparing her to those above her as a good first step. That would give us a more concrete setup for an argument.

 

[Dark.Pch]

once again, why would I do things like that if I am near you, what part of that don't you get?

 

[Natch]

Peach has a very good recovery but the fact remains that it's vertical range is not the greatest.

That is the bottom line. None of this "smart recovery" theorycraft.

To reference this video* again, if it were Peach and instead of Lucas recovering from that distance, Peach would've died. Period. That is why you are ranked where you are. Your horizontal recovery is exceptional, but your vertical recovery is nothing special.

*Start at 2:15 and watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF14aeupJ-U
BTW, that was me who did the spike cancel.

 

[Joxer]

I have two big problems with this list.

Can someone tell me how Jiggs is so high on the list considering that his vertical recovery is horrible? ROB and pit beat him out hands down considering that they can come back from anything with great horizontal range, and both have great vertical recovery as well.

Why on earth is peach so low on the list? Her horizontal recovery is one of the best in the game because of her float, and her vertical recovery is better than at least 5 characters that I can see that are ranked above her.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Last time, Peach could have lived from that spike, just give me my second jump. Thats all I need. Peach's up-b has a good magnet. You be surprised on how how Far he can make it back.And I have said it many times before, I have been spiked in cases like that and made it back. I would not say Peach can if I could not. I am not gonna bias my character just cause I main them nether.

Final input- with all that I said here about Peach, she belongs in A Rank.

 

[Levitas]

I have two big problems with this list.

Can someone tell me how Jiggs is so high on the list considering that his vertical recovery is horrible? ROB and pit beat him out hands down considering that they can come back from anything with great horizontal range, and both have great vertical recovery as well.

Why on earth is peach so low on the list? Her horizontal recovery is one of the best in the game because of her float, and her vertical recovery is better than at least 5 characters that I can see that are ranked above her.

Jiggs has good vertical recovery. being able to do the reverse hyrule jump is a good indication of that.

So which 5 characters have worse vertical recovery than peach?

 

[Vect0r]

Bowser has better recovery than Ike. Seriously.

 

[Adapt]

Jiggs has good vertical recovery. being able to do the reverse hyrule jump is a good indication of that.

So which 5 characters have worse vertical recovery than peach?

Link has less vertical distance than peach, but that is both with first jumps as well.

If you remove the first jump... Peach is dead last unless you count Solo IC/Olimar. The OP has a list of vertical recoveries that was tested in the stage builder.

 

[Frown]

Bowser has better recovery than Ike. Seriously.

Agreed.

In case he has lost his second jump then he's done for if he's under the stage's ground level.

EDIT: Or right next to the stage. EATHAUUUUUHRGH works sometimes.

 

[Ripple]

The original poster needs to make 3 recovery lists.

the first should be verticle

the second should be horizontal

the third should be an average

 

[XienZo]

What about horizontal, vertical, and vulnerability?

 

[Levitas]

That kind of tier list wouldn't give any information that can be directly applied to gameplay. An expansion of this idea would be the following list of data:

Vertical distance (recovery)
Horizontal distance (recovery)
vertical distance with opponent edgehogging
horizontal distance with opponent edgehogging
Vertical speed
Horizontal speed
Net distance (recovery)
Fall speed
fall speed fully stalled
lateral aerial control
weight
aerial priority from below
aerial priority from in front
aerial priority from above
Speed in aerials that can be used during recovery
airdodge frame data


That would be the empirical list of all factors in recovery. All recoveries are a function of those statistics directly. And that data would be rather user-unfriendly and somewhat subjective if we wanted to derive a recovery rating out of that data directly.

 

[Ripple]

That kind of tier list wouldn't give any information that can be directly applied to gameplay. An expansion of this idea would be the following list of data:
y.

the current one doesn't give information that directly applies to gameplay either. all it does is list recovery from "best" to "worst" without saying how each one did in the horizontal or verticle field, it would help people choose a certain stage with a certain character if they knew how they did.

 

[Chis]

No more lists. That's ridiculous and unneeded.

 

[PKNintendo]

But it DOES have vertical tier list.

 

[Joxer]

I am still very confused as to what the list expresses. More clarification please?

 

[Barge]

I think peach and pit should be moved down, and luigi should move up

Peach because shes helpless if shes too low, pit because hes easily gimpable after he goes into the up b animation, Luigi because he can use all of his special moves to recover, and all are quite effective.

 

[Levitas]

The tier list as it is now expresses recovery as a function of the factors I listed in a necessarily subjective manner.

It's an expression of how "good" and "safe" the recoverys are relative to each other.

@ barge, luigi doesn't cover himself particularly well.

 

[Barge]

The tier list as it is now expresses recovery as a function of the factors I listed in a necessarily subjective manner.

It's an expression of how "good" and "safe" the recoverys are relative to each other.

@ barge, luigi doesn't cover himself particularly well.

Still, luigi tornado is teh shiz.

 

[Levitas]

Fact. Luigi tornado >>>> you. And that goes for everyone reading this.

 

[guild525]

Bowser-4
DK-4
Ike-4

lolwut?

Ike's Aether definitely has more vertical distance than DK and Bowser's Recoveries...

 

[Levitas]

I agree. We should throw out empirical tests because of your opinion.

DK and bowser have deceiving sweespot ranges above them, and that probably made the difference. That, and Ike might have come just shy of 5.

 

[Adapt]

Ike also has a crappy second jump compared to bowser/DK

 

[Natch]

Last time, Peach could have lived from that spike, just give me my second jump. Thats all I need. Peach's up-b has a good magnet. You be surprised on how how Far he can make it back.And I have said it many times before, I have been spiked in cases like that and made it back. I would not say Peach can if I could not. I am not gonna bias my character just cause I main them nether.

Final input- with all that I said here about Peach, she belongs in A Rank.

But you have no second jump. You are in the EXACT same situation as Lucas. No "what if's". This means no second jump. Lucas had no second jump, and spike cancelled at a given location via Up+B. You have no second jump, and spike cancelled at the exact same location. I am not an expert on Peach, but I'm very sure she could not reach the ledge from all the way down there with her Up+B ALONE.

I am doing this to SHOW YOU that despite all of the tools Peach has, her.veritcal.recovery.is.nothing.special. Period.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Enough about her Vertical recovery already. You and the rest are letting that one thing down grade her whole recovery? Seriously now? She has more options to recover than nearly everyone in this game. And all the examples about her recovering with her options, I already ended those.

That's like Saying When Peach Fights snake, its not even a contest cause Snake can kill Peach easy and I can't to snake. Due to how I am a light character. And that is not the end of the world for her, Peach can go about even with Snake.

People need to stop looking at one thing and have it be the main cause for everything. Look at the characters recovery as a whole. Not one sided, cause that's what people are doing.

Again, Peach belongs in A rank. anyone who can't play Peach will or can't recover with her , or knows her to a great extent can't tell me otherwise.

 

[bludhoundz]

Okay, as a whole, Peach's recovery:

INSANE horizontal distance. But hey, you don't need to recover from further than the blastzone.. so one side b + float + parasol is enough to recover from .. well pretty much anywhere horizontally.

"meh" vertical distance. Second jump doesn't really provide extra height. Toad really only provides a small in place rise. The parasol is the only thing Peach can really use to go up. It has pretty bad vertical distance. She only beats out a few characters vertically.

Fairly safe against melee attacks, as her fair has good reach and priority. Not so safe against certain projectiles. Pit's arrows, ok, you can clank with them using nair I believe. But when it comes down to something like ROB's laser or a PK thunder, Peach is in trouble. If she gets hit during her float, she can't use it again, severely limiting her recovery.

I do not see how this is an A rank recovery.

 

[Dark.Pch]

You are talking like if Peach is ht only character that can be sniped out of her recovery. And this is what is not making sense at all. People focus only about the bad stuff and never the good and smart useful ways to recover. Thats why this list is crap. And not just because of Peach, other characters here as well. "her vertical recovery is crap, OMG ITS ALL OVER!!!"

With her up-B you can open and close it for fast falling and syke outs. as well as fast moving distance left and right. So now, its not completely hopless are I keep hearing over and over. You have that to atleast help you. People just don't think. its's not all that good, but its not all that bad nether. Seriously if it was that easy Peach be so easy to beat and gimp, and guess what, she is not.

I am not gonna go through smart recovery again. Her second jumps helps as well as everything else. How? You dont play her or understand her like I do, same goes for the others so I am not gonna get into it with MY character and have others tell me otherwise. So if you are gonna try to counter me with my own character, then you don't have any idea what goes on and know nothing of the full extent of her recovery and her options. as well as smart recovery.

And I'll say it again. Her recovery as a whole, she belongs in A Rank.

 

[Brinzy]

The parasol is the only thing Peach can really use to go up. It has pretty bad vertical distance.

Maybe it isn't great comparatively speaking, but rarely should Peach be so far down that she can't make it back. I think that on Battlefield, part of her body can be off of the screen and she can still make it back. It's very hard to gimp, too.

 

[Levitas]

You are talking like if Peach is ht only character that can be sniped out of her recovery. And this is what is not making sense at all. People focus only about the bad stuff and never the good and smart useful ways to recover. Thats why this list is crap. And not just because of Peach, other characters here as well. "her vertical recovery is crap, OMG ITS ALL OVER!!!"

No **** we focus on the bad stuff. If we focused on the good stuff, we wouldn't see each character's LIMITS which we are trying to compare to each other. If you feel singled out for us doing to peach what we do to EVERYONE, then read the thread some more.

Now the point is that it IS all over if peach is below a horizontal line on the screen. That just happens to be her limit, so it's natural that we're talking about it.

She cannot make it back if she's a certain distance down. Others can. That's an advantage they have in their recovery that she doesn't have. DEAL WITH IT. ****. seriously.

With her up-B you can open and close it for fast falling and syke outs. as well as fast moving distance left and right. So now, its not completely hopless are I keep hearing over and over. You have that to atleast help you. People just don't think. its's not all that good, but its not all that bad nether. Seriously if it was that easy Peach be so easy to beat and gimp, and guess what, she is not.

I am not gonna go through smart recovery again. Her second jumps helps as well as everything else. How? You dont play her or understand her like I do, same goes for the others so I am not gonna get into it with MY character and have others tell me otherwise. So if you are gonna try to counter me with my own character, then you don't have any idea what goes on and know nothing of the full extent of her recovery and her options. as well as smart recovery.

And I'll say it again. Her recovery as a whole, she belongs in A Rank.

I agree. We should all just say how good our respective character's recovery is without explaining it... Oh wait, what if what I'm saying is wrong in any way?

I'm not accusing you of being wrong, but you are not above this process in my eyes. If I said Lucas is S tier, easily above metaknight, it would be important for others to scrutinize this before deciding whether it's true or not. If you can't deal with the most logical process for assessing a character's recovery, that's your problem.

Dismiss all of this now because there's obviously no way that I made any valid points, and I obviously know absolutely nothing about your character, which should be above the system, and we should all listen to everything you say as law.

By the way, start providing reasons why your character's recover is better than specific characters above her on the tier list if you want to actually have a good, concrete argument.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I dont agree with where Peach is.She should be in like a Rank. She can make it Back from Nearly anything.If you get launced and dont waste your jump.

- Peach bomber X2
- Toad (yes it gives you distance when used.)
- Float closer to the stage. (About 4-5 secs of floating, And you can even attack while Floating to protect yourself. Any air attack you want.)
- Then finish it off with an Up-B which has so much height

That's alot of distance and recovery options. I Hardly die cause I can't make it back to the stage, if I die, its due to a K.O. I say she belongs ahead of Kirby.

I am gonna put it like this, from what you are saying going on about how her F-B is Meh. You sir, dont fully understand her fully and how to recover well with her. But if you are gonna question this from a Peach expert. Then I have nothing more to say to you.

And her vertical recover is not as bad as you and the rest make it out to be. You are letting that one thing affect her whole recovery game. If all Peach players were top base thier recovery on that, she be easy to kill when comming back. But she is not. Because she has options for making it back.

also if I can make it back from nearly anything. And she is not a character you can just gimp, thanks to her recovery in general. again stop letting this one lil thing affect her whole recovery. I already said she is not die cause she cant make it back. if I die, I die by touching the stage and getting K.O out if anything.

also I would not say peach cant not survive that spike at 41% in the same position that the player was if I have not done that before. all I need is my second jump.

I am not saying peach is special because she can make it back from nearly anything. I dont care about that. As long as she can do it, then thats what matters to me. screw the other characters. I care only about Peach.

Now you are getting to some obvious stuff with her F-B. Now why would I F-B when my enemy is near me? same goes for a reverse toad. I will do it when high in the air or to a point where you can't touch me. See how that works? learn what you can do and use your head. I recover as high as possible so I can be at the center of the stage coming down. and with Peach's options, I can do that easy when sent flying off the stage. and once in the center of the stage, it wont be hard for me to land. really if I have platforms at that.

The examples you are giving out are something that a stupid player would do. I would not do any of this near you and nether would any smart Peach player.

If I am high in the air and need to toad to turn around, it wont mean anything at all. 2 secs is all I need and you wont touch me.

And there is a Need to F-B if my enemy is not near me. I will save my Float, I am not gonna burn my float so easy when I can just F-B and still have my other recovery option(s) is I need it and Can then float if I somehow get hit or need to float for move distance to the stage. its called smart recovery.

*note: @ F-B = Faster and more distance then one float of Peach to the stage.

I suggest you know about Peach more creatively and fully before you go on saying that things have no reason to be done like that.

Peach belongs in A rank I have already explained it to you and the others why so many times and yet you continue to say other wise. if I am saying all of this to back up my claim what more do you want.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I am srtill confused as to how Wario is above Sonic.

 

[Levitas]

The only thing I've done is list problems with her recovery. Let's make this actually go somewhere.

King DDD -
better because:
much heavier than peach. multiple double jumps, ridiculous priority on certain aerials. Super armor on first half of up b, spike on second half, can cancel at any point. up b has large range, vertical and horizontal.

worse because:
Slower in the air. clumsier aerial spacing techniques, loses height off most aerials, bair being the most notable exception. Up B is laggy upon landing, and cannot sweetspot the edge.


Toon Link
better because:
High and fast double jump with good projectile support. Up b has clearly better vertical range, too. forward aerial is faster. Tether option makes horizontal distance on sweetspot faster and longer ranged.

Worse because:
Up b has worse priority from above, and strict recovery range is worse from the lower corners of the screen, though at a certain level peach is no longer able to recover either. No effective stall mechanism, and inferior priority in general in the air.


Luigi
better because:
He has a really good vertical recovery and weight, a useful double jump, along with a projectile to cover himself with. Though it's a good recovery, I don't think it belongs here.

worse because:
Peach has better aerial priority in most of her useful moves here, she's faster to recover, and recovers from a greater portion of the screen

Samus
better because:
massive weight paired with slow falling speed and bombs means she drifts really far. A great double jump and up b get her vertical distance, too. Having a tether is good, though the speed at which the tether winds in is really slow. Zair covers samus when it isn't locking on the edge.

Worse because:
Priority on most of her aerials is worse, and she's really slow to recover from anywhere horizontally. She has fewer mixup options than peach, and doesn't stall in the air as well. She'll still live longer than peach, though.

ZSS
better because:
vertical range is better. can walljump. Fast in the air. Partially invincible recovery move (down b), and quite large double jump. Fast tethers, including a spike.

worse because:
Recovery without the tether is limited in horizontal and vertical distance, even with the upb boosted second jump. ZSS doesn't cover herself well when she gets near the edge, and Peach is better at covering her recovery as well as spacing herself in the air at an advantageous position.





I've made no judgement calls on who's better for each character listed. And this is what more I wanted from you. Something that lists the advantages and disadvantages of the characters above her, and decides what you think is more important in a recovery.

 

[Ho-oh]

Put Luigi higher, he has 3 recovery attacks and can use all of them without touching the ground.
Put Lucario higher too, even though he doesnt have good recovery attacks, he falls very slow and doesnt get smashed as long away from the stage as other characters with the same weight do.
And by the way, ZSS has a better than Samus(thats at least what i think).

 

[PKNintendo]

I am srtill confused as to how Wario is above Sonic.

Wario is heavy, has amazing aerial movement so he rarely needs to USE his recovery. Bike covers a nice distance (he can perform the reverse hyrule jump WITHOUT the waft) Waft is amazing for distance.

 

[PKNintendo]

Sorry, for Double post but I have decided to add in a new feature.

OP has it.

If anyone who has made several arguments about said character I will add their names (and character names) to the OP. The discussions will then be about that character until it is resolved.

 

[viparagon]

why is ness above mario?

 

[PKNintendo]

Why the heck did you search up this topic?

 

[viparagon]

Why the heck did you search up this topic?

^_^ srry it was on your other new thread and i was curious...