My Recovery tier list.

[Mr.E]

It's almost as if I didn't post at all...

The problem I have with ROB's recovery being better than Pit's, is that it's so much slower, and he can't airdodge. ... he cannot prevent pursuers from knocking him back off the stage.

That's silly. Pit can't Air Dodge out of his glide or WoI either so that's a silly point to count against only ROB. And he certainly can protect himself considering he can use his normal aerial attacks while recovering. His UAir is virtually impenetrable coming from below and NAir has a gargantuan disjointed hitbox, not forgetting all the while that ROB can still plant a Gyro on the stage to hold the ledge and harass edgeguarders.

These same characters CAN'T gimp ROB (or practically the rest of the cast) with the same tactics?

Well, let's see...

Pit and ROB? No, they can't. Since ROB can simply reactivate his Robo Burner, getting hit by a minor projectile during it is nothing more than minor damage. Pit's Arrows can also be cancelled out by FAir. Lucas? Nope, FAir cancels out the head and the tail is minor damage at best while ROB once again just reactivates his Up-B with minimal fuel loss.

Pikachu? Since ROB can more easily come from below, unlikely. Pit's Glide must be activated high or it's not useful, where ROB can simply fly low and beat Pikachu's *** with UAir or FAir is he tries that crap. Pit might be able to get under with Wings but he risks Pikachu gimping him (letting Thunder pass him up and hitting low) and can't attack Pikachu from down there as ROB can.

Falco? Nope, although laser might eat ROB's second jump and make him burn slightly more fuel. (Falco can't gimp Pit's WoI either, just the glide so eh.) Samus can't take advantage of ROB's underbelly weakness and he can safely go over her anyway. Yoshi is annoying but not really dangerous (since, again, Robo Burner can simply be reactivated), FAir clanks Din's Fire and Sonic loses to ROB's aerials.

...so no, those characters can't gimp ROB. Really just MK, G&W to a lesser extent. Both are very disjointed in the air, can go out a ways from the ledge, and have very strong vertical mobility (Shuttle Loop, Fireman/Key) to take advantage of ROB's weakness from below if he comes in high.

You still have to land these hits. I don't see how ROB, being considerably slower and lacking an airdodge, could possibly be harder to hit than Pit, who has 3 jumps, a fast glide, a spammable projectile, and an unpredictable upB. He even has reflectors if the situation arises where they're needed.

ROB isn't difficult to hit because he's a small, fast-moving target, he's difficult to hit because he can defend himself very well. The Gyro is an amazing protection tool coming from off-stage, NAir and UAir have very large hitboxes, and FAir clanks with most any projectile typically used to edgeguard.

Meanwhile, Pit's jumps are pretty wussy and his Up-B is at least gimpable by a few characters. (And anybody can gimp WoI on stages Pit can't travel under. His best option is his Glide, which is fast and comes with a strong, high-priority attack, but that has to be started high and comes with a generally predictable path for those who can gimp it.

Telling me to find what legal stage Pit can recover where R.O.B. cannot is moot, bludhoundz. That's like asking me what legal stage Jigglypuff can recover where Mario can't.

Shut up already, that's a terrible comparison. Mario's distance is crap and he often can't even return from off-screen. Compared to Jigglypuff, who can recover from anywhere, it's terrible. As long as ROB isn't killed outright, he can recover from anywhere. You think Pit can recover from more anywhere or something? That doesn't make sense.

And lol, ROB is impossible to spike. Spam Up-B, problem solved. It's basically automatic meteor cancelling.

I seriously recommend people who are saying Pit's glide is gimpable to face a good Pit. When facing an experienced Pit, even gimping Wings of Icarus is a challenge.

It really depends on which character your opponent is, as most can't gimp it on any stage Pit can travel under anyway. A select few can, however, and ANYBODY can potentially gimp it on a stage he CAN'T travel under. The only foolproof way to avoid being gimped is to do it like Snake, go in ultra-high and drop back into the stage, hoping to avoid taking too much damage on the way down.

And I'm gonna respond to the latest post separately, just to make the length a little easier to digest.

 

[Mr.E]

"It wasn't a question in the first place. If Pit can go a further distance, which, he can, then that means that this allows him to take the liberty in stalling and perhaps even evading any danger that might come his way."

Pit can't stall with his greater distance. Gliding is "infinite" but it's also unidirectional, so you'd just suicide in hilarious fashion if you kept going forever with it. There's no infinitely long stage to make use of gliding's potential distance, not even any stage big enough that ROB can't rocket himself back toward the stage three or four times before having to land for fuel, so the distance factor means nothing. As the Wings make you incredibly vulnerable, those can only be safely activated from extremely high or low distances and you have no business dilly-dallying with those things flapping.

...So much for splitting up the posts, that one didn't have anything else worth responding to. :/

 

[AndrewCarlson]

I don't think Pit's jumps are wussy by any means. They're certainly better than other characters who have multiple jumps. In fact, Dryn proved that they travel further than some recoveries just by themselves. Individually, they may be rather average, but it's the fact that he has multiple jumps that matters. In fact, on a flat stage, his combined jumps gain more vertical height than any other character's total jumps (some even including Up-B).

 

[Ripple]

Why is DK so low his recovery is not that bad, it's better than ness' for sure. he needs to move up

 

[Crystanium]

Shut up already, that's a terrible comparison. Mario's distance is crap and he often can't even return from off-screen. Compared to Jigglypuff, who can recover from anywhere, it's terrible. As long as ROB isn't killed outright, he can recover from anywhere. You think Pit can recover from more anywhere or something? That doesn't make sense.

Well, I made a comparison between Mario and Falco, did I not? Falco's jumps aren't superb, and his Fire Bird doesn't get him far. In my previous example, Falco was simply using his Falco Phantasm, while Mario had his choices of using his Cape to stall from falling and so to move toward the stage. He also had his second jump, as well as his Super Jump Punch.

And lol, ROB is impossible to spike. Spam Up-B, problem solved. It's basically automatic meteor cancelling.

R.O.B. is impossible to spike? I think it's funny that you think that. Sonic is more difficult to gimp. R.O.B.'s Robo Burner isn't that quick to dodge a spike. You're more than welcome to watch this video. Watch especially 3:44-3:52.

Pit can't stall with his greater distance.

If Pit can fly farther vertically and horizontally, don't you think that with the amount of distance he can cover, he can also use to stall?

Gliding is "infinite" but it's also unidirectional, so you'd just suicide in hilarious fashion if you kept going forever with it.

I'm not sure who said "infinite." I'm also not sure who said that the Pit player would continue to fly to the other side of the stage and out of the boundry line, which leads me to what I have to say next.

There's no infinitely long stage to make use of gliding's potential distance, not even any stage big enough that ROB can't rocket himself back toward the stage three or four times before having to land for fuel, so the distance factor means nothing.

I think you should go back a few pages to know what I was discussing with bludhoundz before he became tangent. There's a reason why I spoke of distance.

As the Wings make you incredibly vulnerable, those can only be safely activated from extremely high or low distances and you have no business dilly-dallying with those things flapping.

Ah, I see. Hey, everyone, Mr.E is telling me how a Pit player should use his Wings of Icarus.

 

[Matador]

It's almost as if I didn't post at all...

Eh...

That's silly. Pit can't Air Dodge out of his glide or WoI either so that's a silly point to count against only ROB. And he certainly can protect himself considering he can use his normal aerial attacks while recovering. His UAir is virtually impenetrable coming from below and NAir has a gargantuan disjointed hitbox, not forgetting all the while that ROB can still plant a Gyro on the stage to hold the ledge and harass edgeguarders.

You can't be saying that ROB's slow upB = Pit's Glide and WoI because of no airdodge. They're both much less predictable and much faster. It only takes one hit to take him out of both, but it's so much harder to hit a Pit during glide or WoI than it is to attack ROB during his upB that it's not nearly as big of an issue.

Pikachu? Since ROB can more easily come from below, unlikely. Pit's Glide must be activated high or it's not useful, where ROB can simply fly low and beat Pikachu's *** with UAir or FAir is he tries that crap. Pit might be able to get under with Wings but he risks Pikachu gimping him (letting Thunder pass him up and hitting low) and can't attack Pikachu from down there as ROB can.

Still, Pit can come from below. ROB may be at less risk, but Pit isn't completely helpless here. He definitely has enough time to stop the glide once Pikachu comes running off the stage and can wait out the thunder. IIRC, his down B leaves him invulnerable to it as it reverses the attack on Pikachu.

Other scenarios

These have the same logic that the Marth boards like to sometimes carry around...except ROB's Fair isn't even broken. Sure you can Fair Din's, and Fair Lucas' PK thunder, and even Fair Sonic when he approaches, but that's the problem with theory; you won't always be able to do this. ROB's only defense against these approaches is to Fair or Nair his way out. Pit can glide so much faster and further than it often isn't an issue. All you have to do vs ROB's recovery is run his upB out.

...so no, those characters can't gimp ROB. Really just MK, G&W to a lesser extent. Both are very disjointed in the air, can go out a ways from the ledge, and have very strong vertical mobility (Shuttle Loop, Fireman/Key) to take advantage of ROB's weakness from below if he comes in high.

Watch the first stock of this match.

That opportunity wouldn't even be an option vs Pit. He could've easily went under the stage, went over Mario's head safely, spammed arrows until he was close enough to safely grab the ledge, or even directly glided onto the stage with less risk. Had ROB done any of these things, he either wouldn't have made it due to fuel, or could've been knocked back off due to his vulnerable spot/lack of airdodge. Even if this had been Yoshi's or some other stage Pit can't travel under, his other options are viable.

What's to stop Ike or Yoshi from doing the same and just keeping him off? What's to stop Samus from just Zairing him to death?

ROB isn't difficult to hit because he's a small, fast-moving target

Because he sure as hell isn't either one.

He's difficult to hit because he can defend himself very well. The Gyro is an amazing protection tool coming from off-stage, NAir and UAir have very large hitboxes, and FAir clanks with most any projectile typically used to edgeguard.

I'm not saying he doesn't HAVE options, because he'd be alot more like Snake if that were the case.

I'm saying that Pit has the tools to keep himself from taking any hits that could possibly gimp him. Be it going under or over the stage, gliding or arrow spamming, he can safely approach. With ROB, it may take more tries to keep him off, and a seasoned ROB may even lower the chances that these attacks land with Fairs and whatnot, but this doesn't give him a better recovery...just a stubborn one.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Very well said, the both of you.

 

[Matador]

Very well said, the both of you.

I'm glad Mr.E's making sense tho. I think we're getting somewhere.

 

[Gindler]

I don't think Pit's jumps are wussy by any means. They're certainly better than other characters who have multiple jumps. In fact, Dryn proved that they travel further than some recoveries just by themselves. Individually, they may be rather average, but it's the fact that he has multiple jumps that matters. In fact, on a flat stage, his combined jumps gain more vertical height than any other character's total jumps (some even including Up-B).

His jumps = more than yoshi's? preposterous

 

[AndrewCarlson]

His jumps = more than yoshi's? preposterous

In terms of vertical height, I believe so. His 4 jumps from the ground would surpass even Yoshi's normal jump and double jump combined.

 

[Afropony]

In terms of vertical height, I believe so. His 4 jumps from the ground would surpass even Yoshi's normal jump and double jump combined.

I really doubt Pits' 4 jumps are go vertically higher then Yoshi's 2 jumps, Yoshi's 2nd jump is just so ninja-like!

 

[PKNintendo]

Why is DK so low his recovery is not that bad, it's better than ness' for sure. he needs to move up

Wow, you and Ness? Wow.

K, Ness double jump tops DK's recovery. PKT2 should rarely be used yatta yatta yatta.

 

[Greenstreet]

Toon Link better than Luigi PK?
I don't think so...

 

[AndrewCarlson]

I really doubt Pits' 4 jumps are go vertically higher then Yoshi's 2 jumps, Yoshi's 2nd jump is just so ninja-like!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Yoshi's double jump garner more horizontal distance than vertical?

 

[DanGR]

Olimar's recovery is better than Link's.

Spoiler

*watches Oli's recovery rise above link's in the list*
...a week later...
*sees it below link's*
*laughs*

 

[Chis]

Olimar's recovery is better than Link's.

*watches Oli's recovery rise above link's in the list*
...a week later...
*sees it below link's*
*laughs*

No, it's not.

 

[Mmac]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Yoshi's double jump garner more horizontal distance than vertical?

Yoshi's Double Jump goes 6 Blocks high, ALONE!

However it also goes about 10 Blocks across.... so that's kinda correct. Mostly due to his superior airspeed though...

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Just for the sake of it, I tested all 4 of Pit's jumps versus Yoshi's 2. Pit's does indeed go higher, but not by a large margin.

 

[XienZo]

No, it's not.

Link does better when you're forced to go for the ledge, but if you're just floating towards the stage trying to avoid getting hit as you come back, Olimar wins due to super armor. In other words, Olimar is initially easier to gimp, but as the damage rises, Link is gimped more easily than Olimar.

 

[_clinton]

Yoshi's Double Jump goes 6 Blocks high, ALONE!

However it also goes about 10 Blocks across.... so that's kinda correct. Mostly due to his superior airspeed though...

Small stage builder blocks?

If so...Um...no it doesn't...it is 4...with everything (2nd jump and egg throw)

Just for the sake of it, I tested all 4 of Pit's jumps versus Yoshi's 2. Pit's does indeed go higher, but not by a large margin.

People...we are dealing with people's recoveries...the 1st jump doesn't go into it...Pit has 3 jumps for it...and Yoshi has 1...

Yoshi goes to 3 blocks alone and the 1st egg throw pushes him up to 4 stage builder blocks...
Ness and Lucas hit it as well before they use something else (Lucas' rope snake ties him with Yoshi's vertical range in my simple test)

Pit goes 4 blocks alone...and then he has his other tools...

I've got much more data that has more detail if anyone wants me to post it (this simple test is just done with small stage builder blocks...I've got a test that adds in a .3, and a .5 score...because those are the only numbers I'm really able to test well...

Like for example...Yoshi in this test scored a 3.5 with his jump...where as Ness, Lucas, Zamus score a 3.3 (Zamus can reach 3.5 with her upB).

 

[Mmac]

What blocks are you using? Why does my results seem like twice as much as yours? Because Lucas's Double Jump is actually a block smaller than Ness's Double Jump, who is a Block Smaller than Yoshi's from what I got out of it...

 

[_clinton]

What blocks are you using? Why does my results seem like twice as much as yours? Because Lucas's Double Jump is actually a block smaller than Ness's Double Jump, who is a Block Smaller than Yoshi's from what I got out of it...

You said blocks high...as in vertical...not horizontal...

Yohsi's 2nd jump is not 6 blocks in vertical height...

 

[Levitas]

Mmac, lucas's second jump is almost never used in recovery. And his zap jump is far higher than ness's and yoshi's.

 

[_clinton]

Mmac, if you want to see what tests I'm using to measure vertical height (I've got two of them right now) I'll show you ok

 

[Mr.E]

Keep related statements together, don't single out every individual line or sentence and respond to them as such. :[ Dryn...

"R.O.B. is impossible to spike? I think it's funny that you think that. Sonic is more difficult to gimp. R.O.B.'s Robo Burner isn't that quick to dodge a spike. You're more than welcome to watch [this] video. Watch especially 3:44-3:52."

I've seen that video before, love it. Toasty fuxxed up by trying to NAir him off the ledge instead of just plowing straight up with UAir, and that was only after getting stage-spiked to begin with -- nothing proven there other than my exaggeration. (Is it literally impossible? Well no, of course not. Just very rarely, more so than any other character in the game.)

"If Pit can fly farther vertically and horizontally, don't you think that with the amount of distance he can cover, he can also use to stall?
...
There's a reason why I spoke of distance."

Wings of Icarus itself doesn't afford Pit any more distance than ROB's Robo Burner. (Keeping in mind that ROB gets more distance when he cancels/reactivates it, via the start-up boost, and ROB'S BAir also gives him extra forward momentum without fuel usage.) Therefore, the distance factor must be via gliding. Gliding is unidirectional, so the usefulness of its theoretically unlimited distance factor is limited. The only real advantage Pit has is that ROB's fuel doesn't recharge on the ledge where Pit's Wings do.

"Ah, I see. Hey, everyone, Mr.E is telling me how a Pit player should use his Wings of Icarus."

Well you generally shouldn't use it in direct vicinity of the ledge where just any character can run-off or short hop aerial and gimp Pit out of it!

You can't be saying that ROB's slow upB = Pit's Glide and WoI because of no airdodge. They're both much less predictable and much faster. It only takes one hit to take him out of both, but it's so much harder to hit a Pit during glide or WoI than it is to attack ROB during his upB that it's not nearly as big of an issue.

Wings aren't fast, they just give Pit full range of motion, which does help him avoid most enemies' attempts to gimp him because he can swerve right around most edgeguarding. (Not all.) Gliding is quite fast, though it is unidirectional.

But that's not the point. Yes, ROB is easier is hit because he's bigger and slower. However, he's also tougher to hit because he can protect himself better. He has more freedom to recover low and his aerial zoning is very strong. However, regardless of whether one believes Pit's speed is superior to ROB's zoning for recovery, the fact remains that Pit gets gimped by any single attack that nicks him. (Or twice, if both gliding and using Wings in one recovery attempt.) ROB can clank most projectiles and straight up plow through most edgeguarding attempts with NAir or UAir. Even if he does get hit, he's not automatically down a stock for it like Pit and can try again 2-4 more times before he runs out of fuel.

"These have the same logic that the Marth boards like to sometimes carry around...except ROB's Fair isn't even broken. Sure you can Fair Din's, and Fair Lucas' PK thunder, and even Fair Sonic when he approaches, but that's the problem with theory; you won't always be able to do this. ROB's only defense against these approaches is to Fair or Nair his way out. Pit can glide so much faster and further than it often isn't an issue. All you have to do vs ROB's recovery is run his upB out."

Rarely will you not be able to do this. Din's Fire? You can see it coming a mile away. PK Thunder? You can see it coming a mile away. Rarely he might catch you with the tail and hit you from below/behind with the head, but that only knocks you back toward the stage anyway. Sonic? Well, since he has to confront you directly to edgeguard, lacking projectiles of any sort, it's pretty easy to see that coming too! And ROB's aerials beat his.

Gliding is indeed fast, but it's also predictable. You can't go backwards and the pathing available to you is limited, based on your current height and momentum. If an enemy Pit pops you with an arrow as you begin your glide, there's nothing you can do about it. If Lucas runs his PK Thunder through your gliding path, you can hardly avoid it. If someone challenges you below the stage, as if you were going for the opposite-side ledge, glide attacking them is very risky; ROB has no issue sticking his steel pegs or burning thrusters into someone's face no matter where he is.

"[Watch the first stock of this match.]

That opportunity wouldn't even be an option vs Pit. He could've easily went under the stage, went over Mario's head safely, spammed arrows until he was close enough to safely grab the ledge, or even directly glided onto the stage with less risk. Had ROB done any of these things, he either wouldn't have made it due to fuel, or could've been knocked back off due to his vulnerable spot/lack of airdodge. Even if this had been Yoshi's or some other stage Pit can't travel under, his other options are viable.

What's to stop Ike or Yoshi from doing the same and just keeping him off? What's to stop Samus from just Zairing him to death?"

Love that video too, nobody can trash talk like ch0zen. That said, he screwed around and paid for it. I mean, he could (and should) have went for the ledge directly and it wouldn't have been an issue. He could've went under the stage and grabbed the opposite ledge just as Pit. Again, it was not ROB's shortcomings that got him gimped there but Ch0zen's mistakes. It would be no different than me pointing to some random Pit player activating his Wings too close to the ledge and getting gimped by [character which normally couldn't gimp him] before making it under the stage or well over it.

And lord only knows how many clips I could pull up of us ROB players gimping him out of it with laser fire. ;/ That's a legitimate threat, however, just as MK is to ROB recovering. The two video links posted here are analogous to a Pit player activating WoI at stage level and getting laser gimped by Falco or something equally dumb.

"With ROB, it may take more tries to keep him off, and a seasoned ROB may even lower the chances that these attacks land with Fairs and whatnot, but this doesn't give him a better recovery"

So... ROB is tougher to gimp because it takes multiple (successful) attempts to do so and ROB is tougher to gimp because most characters can't consistently beat his aerial game but that doesn't make his recovery better?

Pit has a fast-but-predictable glide and a good freedom of movement with his Wings, but he can't protect himself. He can flat-out avoid most edgeguards, either via glide speed or the ability to stay out of many character's effective edgeguarding ranges. But the few characters that do have the tools to gimp him, they do so well because Pit is mostly defenseless. Like Pit, ROB can recover from very high or low or easily hit the opposite ledge. However, the few characters that can give chase have a tough time beating his aerials and the few characters with viable edgeguarding projectiles have them cancelled out by his aerials. Even if they manage to do it, they have to do it again and again (if not up to four or five times depending how high ROB is knocked up and how well he conserves fuel) before ROB is finished for good! And that is absolutely better than what Pit can do.

 

[Matador]

Wings aren't fast, they just give Pit full range of motion, which does help him avoid most enemies' attempts to gimp him because he can swerve right around most edgeguarding. (Not all.) Gliding is quite fast, though it is unidirectional.

They're fast enough to avoid enemies like Marth from Fair-ing him to death and enough control to go around most edgeguarding attempts. It's not fast, but fast enough.

But that's not the point. Yes, ROB is easier is hit because he's bigger and slower. However, he's also tougher to hit because he can protect himself better. He has more freedom to recover low and his aerial zoning is very strong. However, regardless of whether one believes Pit's speed is superior to ROB's zoning for recovery, the fact remains that Pit gets gimped by any single attack that nicks him. (Or twice, if both gliding and using Wings in one recovery attempt.) ROB can clank most projectiles and straight up plow through most edgeguarding attempts with NAir or UAir. Even if he does get hit, he's not automatically down a stock for it like Pit and can try again 2-4 more times before he runs out of fuel.

It doesn't matter if he can recover low or high if he's a huge, slow moving target that can only defend himself when the opponent is already on top of him. Nair is generally a good defense, but it's slow and has punishable lag. I'm not discounting it just for that, but there are certainly ways around it.

ROB may be down a stock for it. If you were knocked offstage, chances are that you're high %. Trying again and again doesn't help that.

And who's to say that Pit's aerials don't help him out just as much? He certainly has the range and attack speed for it. The multiple jumps don't hurt either. His Glide attack also has good range, priority, and speed as well if he needs that. His arrows work well to help him approach too.

Rarely will you not be able to do this. Din's Fire? You can see it coming a mile away. PK Thunder? You can see it coming a mile away. Rarely he might catch you with the tail and hit you from below/behind with the head, but that only knocks you back toward the stage anyway. Sonic? Well, since he has to confront you directly to edgeguard, lacking projectiles of any sort, it's pretty easy to see that coming too! And ROB's aerials beat his.

I'm really starting to hate this logic...

*sigh*

Does ROB's Fair cover his entire body? If not, can't Dins ignite beneath or behind him and still KO him over the top?

If Lucas knows Fair beats out his upB (which he probably does), can't he wait out your Fair or try to get in when you don't have it up? Sure, this is a much easier edgeguard to thwart, but Pit needs to only shoot Lucas to get him out of PKT, which should be pretty easy since he's not moving. Doesn't Pit also have an aerial that beats it out as well?

You can't just argue that since an attack's slow, it won't hit. There's too much more to factor in than that.

Gliding is indeed fast, but it's also predictable. You can't go backwards and the pathing available to you is limited, based on your current height and momentum. If an enemy Pit pops you with an arrow as you begin your glide, there's nothing you can do about it. If Lucas runs his PK Thunder through your gliding path, you can hardly avoid it. If someone challenges you below the stage, as if you were going for the opposite-side ledge, glide attacking them is very risky; ROB has no issue sticking his steel pegs or burning thrusters into someone's face no matter where he is.

It's much less predictable than ROB's upB and fast enough to often avoid the opponent even if they DO predict your path. His Glide attack is also very fast, and has good enough range that it'll protect you as you get close to your opponent. I don't see where the risk is, especially if it's not his last jump. It's not even as if you need to use the glide at the beginning of my recovery or at all if my 3 jumps will get me there.

Love that video too, nobody can trash talk like ch0zen. That said, he screwed around and paid for it. I mean, he could (and should) have went for the ledge directly and it wouldn't have been an issue. He could've went under the stage and grabbed the opposite ledge just as Pit. Again, it was not ROB's shortcomings that got him gimped there but Ch0zen's mistakes. It would be no different than me pointing to some random Pit player activating his Wings too close to the ledge and getting gimped by [character which normally couldn't gimp him] before making it under the stage or well over it.

And lord only knows how many clips I could pull up of us ROB players gimping him out of it with laser fire. ;/ That's a legitimate threat, however, just as MK is to ROB recovering. The two video links posted here are analogous to a Pit player activating WoI at stage level and getting laser gimped by Falco or something equally dumb.

Indeed, he could've prevented that by going for the ledge. The fact that this happens relatively often vs ROB is what I'm getting at. Had Boss not even gotten hit by the first Nair and caped him like he had caped him the second time, he would've been able to easily follow Chozen because of how slow the upB moves and taken advantage of his blindspot. ROB's upB is also pretty easy to punish under the stage as well if the opponent knows you're going for it.

My purpose in posting that wasn't to show that "well, Mario can gimp him too." or anything like that. It was to show that relying so heavily on aerials to protect your recovery isn't good, no matter how good your aerials are or how far you can recover from. The timing is too strict and the precision must be just right if you want to place defenses like that into the league of fast glides and upBs.

So... ROB is tougher to gimp because it takes multiple (successful) attempts to do so and ROB is tougher to gimp because most characters can't consistently beat his aerial game but that doesn't make his recovery better?

Don't take my quotes out of context. I even said in the beginning of my post that ROB takes more consistency, but the fact that it's so easy to hit him because he relies on his aerials so heavily is what makes him easier to gimp.

Picture this. If you're playing darts. Is it harder to hit the bullseye twice in a row, or hit the outer areas 5 times?

Pit has a fast-but-predictable glide and a good freedom of movement with his Wings, but he can't protect himself. He can flat-out avoid most edgeguards, either via glide speed or the ability to stay out of many character's effective edgeguarding ranges. But the few characters that do have the tools to gimp him, they do so well because Pit is mostly defenseless. Like Pit, ROB can recover from very high or low or easily hit the opposite ledge. However, the few characters that can give chase have a tough time beating his aerials and the few characters with viable edgeguarding projectiles have them cancelled out by his aerials. Even if they manage to do it, they have to do it again and again (if not up to four or five times depending how high ROB is knocked up and how well he conserves fuel) before ROB is finished for good! And that is absolutely better than what Pit can do.

It's easy to do it again...and again...and again. Sometimes you don't have to if you hit them with the right aerial. If Wario does his Uair or TL does his Fair just once and you're at a high enough %, you won't get to try again. If you do, what's to stop them from trying again?

 

[Mr.E]

They're fast enough to avoid enemies like Marth from Fair-ing him to death and enough control to go around most edgeguarding attempts. It's not fast, but fast enough.

You can go around Marth's edgeguarding space (i.e. stay out further than he can reach without putting himself in danger), it's not like he just whiffs an attack as a result of your incredible speed. . Nonetheless, Marth is someone that can't regularly gimp Pit so there's really nothing to argue here. ROB pretty much has to do the same since Marth is only of the few characters that outright beat him in the air.

It doesn't matter if he can recover low or high if he's a huge, slow moving target that can only defend himself when the opponent is already on top of him. Nair is generally a good defense, but it's slow and has punishable lag. I'm not discounting it just for that, but there are certainly ways around it.

Eh? Of course it matters. Pit's recovery can be gimped but it's still very good. Why? Even if he has to use his Wings, most characters can't chase him to the bottom of the screen (or the top, really far out, whatever) to make the gimp. The same goes for ROB. It doesn't matter that he's a larger target if the opponent can't reach him with anything. Pit's not exactly a small target himself, though...

NAir has minimal recovery lag, BTW, the startup lag is what's long. ROB's UAir is still amazing at any rate.

And who's to say that Pit's aerials don't help him out just as much? He certainly has the range and attack speed for it. The multiple jumps don't hurt either. His Glide attack also has good range, priority, and speed as well if he needs that. His arrows work well to help him approach too.

Arrows don't do a whole lot other than maybe annoyingly rack up some damage on the edgeguarding opponent, they have little hitstun and no knockback potential. You can only shoot them dropping down from high, in which case you lose the ability to put some speed/height behind a glide. Compare to ROB's projectiles -- his have stronger knockback, potentially hitting the opponent away long enough to return to stage safely, and he can plant the Gyro as a lingering hitbox on the edge to protect the ledge.

Does ROB's Fair cover his entire body? If not, can't Dins ignite beneath or behind him and still KO him over the top? If Lucas knows Fair beats out his upB (which he probably does), can't he wait out your Fair or try to get in when you don't have it up? Sure, this is a much easier edgeguard to thwart, but Pit needs to only shoot Lucas to get him out of PKT, which should be pretty easy since he's not moving. Doesn't Pit also have an aerial that beats it out as well?

ROB's FAir clanks with Din's no matter where it explodes, it's no different than air dodging the thing. While ROB should generally be able to maneuver to force a head-on collision of PKT with his FAir, it's not as if Lucas has that kind of control anyway. PKT is always moving forward, so he can't do much but loop it around and try to hit ROB on the vertical plane. That might rack up some damage but it won't knock him back away. :/

And Lucas can't gimp Pit out of his glide if he's not gliding in the first place. Yeah, Pit can shoot him, reflect it, or whatever if you're just trying to DI and jump your way back to the stage. Good for Pit! If you're already in a glide, there's not much you can do about it, though. Lesson learned? Maybe Pit just shouldn't glide against Lucas, or less often anyway.

[Gliding is] much less predictable than ROB's upB and fast enough to often avoid the opponent even if they DO predict your path. His Glide attack is also very fast, and has good enough range that it'll protect you as you get close to your opponent. I don't see where the risk is, especially if it's not his last jump. It's not even as if you need to use the glide at the beginning of my recovery or at all if my 3 jumps will get me there.

It's not just about being predictable, it's that Pit is ALSO defenseless while gliding. If Zelda shoots a Din's Fire at ROB while he's recovering? He cancels it out with FAir and keeps going. If she does it to Pit? Well he's getting blown back up toward the corner of the screen. If another ROB shoots ROB with a weak laser while he recovers? He takes 5% and just boosts back up. Pit? He loses his glide for nothing.

If you can get back to the stage with just your jumps, that's great. Every character looks to do that before being forced into true "recovery" and Pit is probably above-average at being able to do that. But if you exercise your option to glide, many characters can gimp it. And whether you glide or not, sometimes you'll use up your jumps and just get beat by the edgeguard. If Pit has to use his Wings, he may be at serious risk of getting killed, depending on the stage and opponent. (Anybody can gimp the Wings on, say, Castle Siege or Yoshi's Island.) No problem for ROB.

Indeed, he could've prevented that by going for the ledge. The fact that this happens relatively often vs ROB is what I'm getting at. ... ROB's upB is also pretty easy to punish under the stage as well if the opponent knows you're going for it.

Just how easy is it to punish? Mario sure as hell can't chase ROB down under the stage to hit him with anything. Most characters can't. Even if he could, ROB could just reactivate his thrusters and recover back to a now empty stage. (Pit would be dead at this point if he was using WoI.) He could have safely hit the opposite ledge if that's just what he would've done in the first place. Even if Boss reacted with superhuman reflexes (or predicted in advance) and went to the opposite side of the stage, ROB can reverse his momentum instantly and just shoot back to the original ledge much like Pit could do flying on his Wings.

It's not like Mario is a character that can really take advantage of ROB's blind spot beneath him anyway, he could've also just went high with a falling aerial to force Mario to let him back onstage (or hit him if he tried something). Or Air Dodge.

It'd be kinda dumb to fly straight at Mario and get your glide attack caped too. *shrug*

Don't take my quotes out of context. I even said in the beginning of my post that ROB takes more consistency, but the fact that it's so easy to hit him because he relies on his aerials so heavily is what makes him easier to gimp.

It's easy to do it again...and again...and again. Sometimes you don't have to if you hit them with the right aerial. If Wario does his Uair or TL does his Fair just once and you're at a high enough %, you won't get to try again. If you do, what's to stop them from trying again?

He's as good as Pit at just flat-out being able to avoid most edgeguarders, not because he's fast but because he can recover from outside the range most of them can risk venturing out. He can also still go high against opponents that can't take advantage of the blindspot beneath him. His projectiles are second to none in their ability to cover his descent. ROB is not reliant on his aerials to protect himself off-stage, it's just a great insurance policy. If the opponent can even get into position to edgeguard and if they can deal with his projectiles, they still have to get around his fully functional aerial game, which is flat-out better than most characters. There's no edgeguarding against that.

TL can't do a whole lot against ROB coming from below. Now Wario...? I'm done with this topic.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Using that logic, you're saying that Meta Knight's glide can be gimped too? There's no disputing that he has the best recovery overall, but the glide's an important component of his recovery as well.

 

[Matador]

I'm done with this topic.

Don't leave, we're making progress. You're one of the few in this thread actually coming with facts.

Eh? Of course it matters. Pit's recovery can be gimped but it's still very good. Why? Even if he has to use his Wings, most characters can't chase him to the bottom of the screen (or the top, really far out, whatever) to make the gimp. The same goes for ROB. It doesn't matter that he's a larger target if the opponent can't reach him with anything. Pit's not exactly a small target himself, though...

NAir has minimal recovery lag, BTW, the startup lag is what's long. ROB's UAir is still amazing at any rate.

So you're saying that if ROB is below the stage, he'll take the long route around and out of the way of the edgeguarder instead of going straight for the edge? Won't that run the risk of running out of fuel if knocked back?

Arrows don't do a whole lot other than maybe annoyingly rack up some damage on the edgeguarding opponent, they have little hitstun and no knockback potential. You can only shoot them dropping down from high, in which case you lose the ability to put some speed/height behind a glide. Compare to ROB's projectiles -- his have stronger knockback, potentially hitting the opponent away long enough to return to stage safely, and he can plant the Gyro as a lingering hitbox on the edge to protect the ledge.

Watch from 3:50 till Sagemoon gets back on stage. The way he used the arrows prevented D3 from getting close to the edge and knocking him back off even if he wanted to. The hitstun is enough to keep him occupied as you move forward. It's not much compared to ROB's laser and Gyro, but they help about as much for his recovery even without the knockback, especially since he can spam them as he's coming down if he's up high.

ROB's FAir clanks with Din's no matter where it explodes, it's no different than air dodging the thing. While ROB should generally be able to maneuver to force a head-on collision of PKT with his FAir, it's not as if Lucas has that kind of control anyway. PKT is always moving forward, so he can't do much but loop it around and try to hit ROB on the vertical plane. That might rack up some damage but it won't knock him back away. :/

I didn't know ROB's Fair did that. I figured it'd work like Mario's Nair.

I dunno, I've seen some fancy things done with Lucas' PKT to avoid being cancelled out.

And Lucas can't gimp Pit out of his glide if he's not gliding in the first place. Yeah, Pit can shoot him, reflect it, or whatever if you're just trying to DI and jump your way back to the stage. Good for Pit! If you're already in a glide, there's not much you can do about it, though. Lesson learned? Maybe Pit just shouldn't glide against Lucas, or less often anyway.

I agree. I don't main Pit or anything, so I don't know how they deal with it over in their boards. Logic would oppose gliding in this instance tho.

It's not just about being predictable, it's that Pit is ALSO defenseless while gliding. If Zelda shoots a Din's Fire at ROB while he's recovering? He cancels it out with FAir and keeps going. If she does it to Pit? Well he's getting blown back up toward the corner of the screen. If another ROB shoots ROB with a weak laser while he recovers? He takes 5% and just boosts back up. Pit? He loses his glide for nothing.

Still, he's not easy to catch even if the hit means his glide is lost.

If you can get back to the stage with just your jumps, that's great. Every character looks to do that before being forced into true "recovery" and Pit is probably above-average at being able to do that. But if you exercise your option to glide, many characters can gimp it. And whether you glide or not, sometimes you'll use up your jumps and just get beat by the edgeguard. If Pit has to use his Wings, he may be at serious risk of getting killed, depending on the stage and opponent. (Anybody can gimp the Wings on, say, Castle Siege or Yoshi's Island.) No problem for ROB.

I'm obviously missing something here. Maybe I need more ROB experience or just to use him a bit more. But this is basically us going back and forth with me saying "He's slow and easy" and you saying "No he's not". This argument here isn't going anywhere.

Just how easy is it to punish? Mario sure as hell can't chase ROB down under the stage to hit him with anything. Most characters can't. Even if he could, ROB could just reactivate his thrusters and recover back to a now empty stage. (Pit would be dead at this point if he was using WoI.) He could have safely hit the opposite ledge if that's just what he would've done in the first place. Even if Boss reacted with superhuman reflexes (or predicted in advance) and went to the opposite side of the stage, ROB can reverse his momentum instantly and just shoot back to the original ledge much like Pit could do flying on his Wings.

With WoI and Glide being significantly faster than ROB's upB, I don't think Mario could reach the other end before Pit grabs the ledge.

It's not like Mario is a character that can really take advantage of ROB's blind spot beneath him anyway, he could've also just went high with a falling aerial to force Mario to let him back onstage (or hit him if he tried something). Or Air Dodge.

It'd be kinda dumb to fly straight at Mario and get your glide attack caped too. *shrug*

Mario
Difficulty level: 7/10
R.O.B. is at a disadvantage.

General criteria of this match-up

* By far, what makes this match-up is Mario's ability to juggle the crap out of R.O.B. Basically, if Mario gets in an aerial hit, R.O.B. is in for a bit of a beating.
* This is especially true for when R.O.B. is above Mario. That fatal blindspot below him makes it difficult to answer a u-airing Mario from below.

Mario's actually one of the best at taking advantage of his little blind spot. This is straight from the ROB matchup discussion.

Pit's Glide attack is a problem for Mario.

TL can't do a whole lot against ROB coming from below. Now Wario...?

I'm saying TL's Fair and Wario's Uair have pretty decent knockback and are good KO moves. They usually won't need to hit again if they land one of these as you recover. Your argument was that if you're hit, you can just upB again and keep moving.

 

[Kingdom Key]

I agree with you on most of the list, but I think Pit should be a rank lower because his recovery can be easily canceled by making him flinch.

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Re-read the past several pages regarding Pit's placement. It's been discussed to no end.

 

[Mr.E]

Not done with this topic itself, done with the Pit/ROB thing. :[ Precisely becuase of the "But this is basically us going back and forth with me saying 'He's slow and easy' and you saying 'No he's not'. This argument here isn't going anywhere." aspect; I don't know how else I can "prove" ROB's case without showing it in a video, which I don't have the capability of making. But I'll do this one since it's not that much and we're about out of points of contention anyway...

Using that logic, you're saying that Meta Knight's glide can be gimped too? There's no disputing that he has the best recovery overall, but the glide's an important component of his recovery as well.

Yeah, it can be gimped in the same fashion. Keep in mind that most characters can't gimp a glide anyway, maybe just 1/3 of the cast at worst, so it's not like I'm saying that Pit (or MK) are incredibly gimpable here. (We're discussing the difference between 3rd or 4th best in the game, for crying out loud.) MK's the best because his recovery beyond gliding is better than Pit's -- his Specials aren't prone to gimps and he has the better aerial game to protect himself at short range. And he has a second glide attached to his Shuttle Loop...

So you're saying that if ROB is below the stage, he'll take the long route around and out of the way of the edgeguarder instead of going straight for the edge? Won't that run the risk of running out of fuel if knocked back?

No more of a risk than Pit getting gimped and... he's never afforded a second chance. Most of the time this won't happen to either one, but Pit is slightly more prone here.

[video] The way he used the arrows prevented D3 from getting close to the edge and knocking him back off even if he wanted to.

No doubt, excellent use of the Arrows. Considering his proximity to the ledge I don't think Dedede would've been able to do much to him anyway, though. I'm not sure it would help much if Pit was falling from the top corner doing it but I suppose it is helpful in getting him back to the ledge with only his jumps.

"With WoI and Glide being significantly faster than ROB's upB, I don't think Mario could reach the other end before Pit grabs the ledge."

Likewise for ROB. Mario couldn't do much unless he practically reads their mind and heads to the opposite side very early in their recovery, at which point both Pit or ROB could just hold up and go for the original ledge. And while Mario's Cape is an excellent tool in deterring direct confrontation, as Ch0zen got shoved away while NAiring, he can't do much if ROB is coming vertically from down low.

Mario's actually one of the best at taking advantage of his little blind spot. This is straight from the ROB matchup discussion.

Pit's Glide attack is a problem for Mario.

Mario can barely venture off-stage at all to go after you and thus is not a character either Pit or ROB should have any trouble recovering against.

Mario can juggle ROB well at low-mid percents with UTilt and UAir, yes, but he's not in position to do that if ROB is dropping in from the top of the screen and has plenty of time to space a falling NAir. I would also assume he's not even fast enough to get beneath/around ROB's BAir if ROB just goes slightly over his head and goes for the other side of the stage, but I can't confirm that. I mean, who uses Mario? ;(

I'm saying TL's Fair and Wario's Uair have pretty decent knockback and are good KO moves. They usually won't need to hit again if they land one of these as you recover. Your argument was that if you're hit, you can just upB again and keep moving.

Of course, but that's usually not how gimping works! Wario has no shot at landing a UAir because ROB can come in low enough to prevent him from getting under. (His aerials soundly beat Wario's anyway.) TL can't do much but throw bombs down there, but ROB would auto sweetspot the ledge before he runs into one of those. DAir isn't really an option, for various reasons, and horizontal attacks (FAir, BAir, NAir) can't catch ROB's UAir coming from beneath. Direct KOs are generally less of a concern off-stage, and due to the way ROB's recovery works he's extremely hardy against both conventional and stage spikes as well.

More likely? MK slowly runs him out of fuel via repeatedly knockaways via DAir/Fair and his Shuttle Loop is excellent at exploting ROB's blind spot, making coming in high very hard as well. G&W slowfalls a Key in ROB's face if he tries to go low or knocks him away with Fireman if he goes high, and can put him in a position to punish by stalling his descent with UAir. Dedede's aerial game beats ROB's and tossed Waddle Dees will block a Gyro. These are things that worry ROB, not Pit or Zelda somehow finding a way to plant a fresh BAir in his face.

 

[_clinton]

I updated my basic block vertical recovery test a bit...

2-13 (clear) is the score board...

"" means situation...so Mario's 6 is there...but you may have issues reaching it...

Mario-4, "6(Wall Jump)"
Luigi-5, 9(Tornado)
Peach-3
Bowser-4
DK-4
Diddy-6(normal), 9(Wall Cling)
Yoshi-3(2nd only), 4
Wario-4, 8(Bike Jump Add on), Clear(Fart Add on)
Link-3(Claw Shot), 4(Normal), 7(Bomb Jump)
Zelda-5
Shiek-4(Chain), 6(normal), "11(Wall Cling)"
Ganondorf-5
Tink-3(Hook Shot as well as 2nd jump), 5(normal), "7(Wall Jump)", 9(Bomb Jump), "11(Everything Wall Jump)"
Samus-3(Grabble Hook), 5(Normal), 7(Wall Jump)
Zamus-3(2nd), 6(Rope), 8(Wall Jump)
Pit-4(Jumps), 8(WoI only), Clear(Full)
Ice C-4(Belay P.), 6(Leader), 4~7(Best Together)
Solo Ice-3
ROB-10
Kirby-5(Jumps), 7(Full)
MK-5(Jumps), 8(Shuttle Loop), 9(Drill Rush)
King D3-5(Jumps), 8(Full)
Olimar-3(0 Pikmin), 4(3 Pikmin), 5(5 Pikmin)
Fox-3(2nd and Illusion), 7(Fire Fox), "8(Wall Jump)", 8(2nd Add-on), "9(Wall Jump+Add-on)"
Falco-3(2nd and Illusion), 6(Fire Bird), "8(Wall Jump)"
Wolf-3(2nd and Illusion), 6(Fire Wolf), "7(Wall Jump)"
C. Falcon-2(2nd and Raptor Boost), 5(Full), "7(Wall Jump)"
Pikachu-7(Normal), 8(Wall Jump)
Squirtle-4(Normal), "6(Wall Cling)"
Ivysaur-2(2nd), 5(Rope)
Charizard-3(Jumps), 5(Full)
Lucario-6(Full), 9 to Clear(3rd to Wall)
Jigglypuff-6(Jumps), 7(Add ons)
Marth-5(everything)
Ike-4
Ness-2(Reduced PK Thunder), 3(2nd), 3(Full Single PK Thunder), 6(Full Recovery range)
Lucas-3(2nd), 4(2nd and Snake), 4(Full PK Thunder), 7(Full 2nd), 10(Full Zap Jumping)
Mr. G&W-5
Snake-7(Normal), Clear(Add ons)
Sonic-6(Normal), 7(Spin Jump), 8(Wall Jump)

If I feel like posting some of my other tests I will...

 

[Binx]

Metaknight
Rob
who cares repeated until you run out of characters

 

[Gindler]

Isn't snake a wee bit high seeing how he's one of the easiest characters for MK to gimp?

 

[Browny]

thats until the snake learns how to DI

no reason why he should ever be at stage hieght or lower while recovering :/

 

[ShadowLink84]

thats until the snake learns how to DI

no reason why he should ever be at stage hieght or lower while recovering :/

grab release off the edge. giggity

 

[Gindler]

thats until the snake learns how to DI

no reason why he should ever be at stage hieght or lower while recovering :/

The should argument isn't very viable. If a snake is off stage without his second jump chances are he won't be recovering high...just saying

 

[Irsic]

Also to add, while Lucas's recovery can not be intercepted, you probably have enough time to attack during it. Definitely not amazing.

Lucas has a good recovery WUT?!
Sure, I know of his PSI Magnet recovery technique, but he doesn't deserve to be that high.

I find Sonic being down there funnier though. And ROB isn't that high.

I know this has already been taken into account, but I just was curious what kind of crack you two have been smoking and where can I get some?

 

[ShadowLink84]

Irsic do you get slapped by smelly fish?
No?
Then why do you feel the need to do it to others?