MK SS Tier! (tier discussion)

[BlackWaltzX]

MK out camps Olimar. :3

 

[metaXzero]

^........Well that came out of nowhere.

 

[BlackWaltzX]

Well, he can. Me against Spam. (NJ people)

 

[Zodac]

how does he not deserve his own tier?
he got voted the no.1 by all 15 people who made the tier list.
he has a neutral or better match-up with every character.
he dominates (until i can find a stronger word) tourneys.
best recovery with multiple options.
best damage racking.
best gimping.
great aerials.
great ground game.
great specials (probably the best).
great tilts.
good smashes.
great running speed
one of the smallest char.'s
dash grab is ****.
down and up throw is ****.
and his d smash was just made to be used at meta-game level.

his only real weakness is weight

what more needs to be said?

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

how does he not deserve his own tier?
he got voted the no.1 by all 15 people who made the tier list.
he has a neutral or better match-up with every character.
he dominates (until i can find a stronger word) tourneys.
best recovery with multiple options.
best damage racking.
best gimping.
great aerials.
great ground game.
great specials (probably the best).
great tilts.
good smashes.
great running speed
one of the smallest char.'s
dash grab is ****.
down and up throw is ****.
and his d smash was just made to be used at meta-game level.

his only real weakness is weight

what more needs to be said?

other than his size occasionally being a weakness, agreed.

 

[Atria]

Gates is my hero <3

On Topic: the new tier list is we todd it. Sofa kinda we todd it.

You mean sofa king we todd it?

If you were referring to the one scene in the Aqua Teen Hunger Force episode 'Video Ouija', the characters actually say "I am Sofa King we Todd ed". Lol at the ATHF joke reference. If you weren't referring to ATHF, then ignore what I said.

BTW, I am Sofa King we Todd ed (or Sofa kinda we todd it/sofa king we todd it. Depending on whether I was right or not before) makes for an interesting tier list. I can't wait to see who's in it! =D

 

[oOJaseOo]

I wish I had your optimism. But I've seen too much failures of attempts to work around one-sided match-ups.

Which leads to Counterpicking or changing mains...

lol i never rlly have any problems with any other characters when useing toon link i might change to MK, Ike or zelda for funzeez or if i go against this lucas player i know who gives me trouble or olimar to show him wat real characters look like other than TL ofc ^^
(no offense to olimar players its just i dont like him)

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Teh_Spammerer and Inui think snake is better than mk
im leaning on that, idk yet

 

[JayBee]

Mk should be in his own tier. Hes that good. Snake should not. He should be in A above Falco. Snake has bad matchups: MK does not. That simple.


Oh yeah, and ALL ABOARD THE S.S METAKNIGHT!!!

unfortunaely, this is true. he has too many good things going for him that the fact that he is a light weight(his only real weakness) isn't nearly enough to suggest otherwise. blah blah blah metaknight god tier forever...

I really think Snake or another Mk have the best chance against an MK. you just have to be so much better as a player otherwise...

 

[Tianxiazhai]

I think Snake is better than MK to be honest.

I use to think that MK was by far the best, but I changed my mind after playing against good Snake's and seeing what he can do.

That may be true as a character, but meta knight still has the superior matchups.

 

[Tero.]

That may be true as a character, but meta knight still has the superior matchups.

Kinda reminds me at the Fox/Sheik discussion in Melee.
Fox probably is the better character but Sheik has better MUs

 

[Kamikaze*]

I agree that he should be #1, but he should be in the same tier with snake. He is definitely not an entire tier above him.

 

[Conti]

Tbh, i think Snake Should be in the "A" Tier, above falco... and Metaknight should either keep his own tier, Only reason of that is because metaknight = no bad matchups...
Only character that has this attribute... Thats pretty much it... same as what some of u may have said...

 

[shinyspoon42]

Obviously Meta is 2nd only to captain falcons godly punch, otherwise he is insanely overpowered. People say snake deserves to be S.S too, but look at tournament results; Meta dominates everything. He has nothing to counter him, except himself. Snake has weaknesses, ergo Meta gets his own tier. Below C. Falcons, of course.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I just don"t like how he gets his own tier....

 

[Freezewish]

I just don"t like how he gets his own tier....

Well he is leagues above the rest of the cast(maybe not snake).

 

[Random_Smash_Attack]

MK is cheap the sooner we can accept that the sooner we can enjoy playing. I'm sorry to you all but MK belongs in his own tier. Enough of this bad match up crap we all know MK has none.

 

[Ulevo]

For those of you stating that "at least Snake has bad match ups, Meta Knight doesn't", you're a little misinformed.

Snakes only true bad match up is King Dedede. Snake is capable of taking on and taking out every other character, and with relative ease, with the players in question around near equal skill. All it requires is proper match up knowledge. If you really can't accept this, I suggest you look into Ally's Snake. He has only ever had trouble or lost a tournament set to either A) King Dedede or B) M2K. There's a good reason for this. He doesn't lose to Pikachu, he doesn't lose to Falco. King Dedede gets him though. Hence why Azen was able to take a set 3-1, with the first set merely having Azen sandbag.

Meta Knight (without going into debates on how many poor match ups he has), like Snake, has at least one poor match up. And that is Snake himself.

 

[The Slayer]

MK is cheap the sooner we can accept that the sooner we can enjoy playing. I'm sorry to you all but MK belongs in his own tier. Enough of this bad match up crap we all know MK has none.

He's not really a cheap character. Just an overall better character than most of the cast. Besides, bad match or not, he is still beatable to certain character (mainly in the higher tiers).

 

[metaXzero]

For those of you stating that "at least Snake has bad match ups, Meta Knight doesn't", you're a little misinformed.

Snakes only true bad match up is King Dedede. Snake is capable of taking on and taking out every other character, and with relative ease, with the players in question around near equal skill. All it requires is proper match up knowledge. If you really can't accept this, I suggest you look into Ally's Snake. He has only ever had trouble or lost a tournament set to either A) King Dedede or B) M2K. There's a good reason for this. He doesn't lose to Pikachu, he doesn't lose to Falco. King Dedede gets him though. Hence why Azen was able to take a set 3-1, with the first set merely having Azen sandbag.

Meta Knight (without going into debates on how many poor match ups he has), like Snake, has at least one poor match up. And that is Snake himself.

Dedede is decisively a "poor" match-up for MK. Snake however is still utterly debated if it really is a poor match-up, or a another possible evenish match-up for MK.

He's not really a cheap character. Just an overall better character than most of the cast. Besides, bad match or not, he is still beatable to certain character (mainly in the higher tiers).

When a character is overall better then the rest of the cast, people tend to lable them as cheap.

 

[Nic64]

Dedede is decisively a "poor" match-up for MK. Snake however is still utterly debated if it really is a poor match-up, or a another possible evenish match-up for MK.

I think you meant DDD is a poor matchup for snake, and actually, that has come under debate as of late. Some snakes feel like the match is even if you are campy enough, or even possibly in snakes favor.

(for the record, I don't believe snake or MK have any bad matchups that even remotely warrants a secondary, maybe a few between them that are just slightly in their opponents favor, but probably worth sticking with your main. and I think the IC's are the only such character for Falco)

 

[Tero.]

For those of you stating that "at least Snake has bad match ups, Meta Knight doesn't", you're a little misinformed.

Snakes only true bad match up is King Dedede. Snake is capable of taking on and taking out every other character, and with relative ease, with the players in question around near equal skill. All it requires is proper match up knowledge. If you really can't accept this, I suggest you look into Ally's Snake. He has only ever had trouble or lost a tournament set to either A) King Dedede or B) M2K. There's a good reason for this. He doesn't lose to Pikachu, he doesn't lose to Falco. King Dedede gets him though. Hence why Azen was able to take a set 3-1, with the first set merely having Azen sandbag.

Meta Knight (without going into debates on how many poor match ups he has), like Snake, has at least one poor match up. And that is Snake himself.

This is true, too bad people don't see this.

 

[metaXzero]

This is true, too bad people don't see this.

Because the MK vs. Snake match-up is constently debated as either even or slightly in someone's favor...

 

[Galahad]

mk shouldnt have his own tiewr, but should be rated above snake

 

[Kamikaze*]

mk shouldnt have his own tiewr, but should be rated above snake

This man knows what he's talking about.

 

[oOJaseOo]

uuuraaaagghhh why do ppl keep talking about this, MK has earned his spot on the tier list as a character he deserves his own tier cause he earned it if it bothers ppl soooo much why the hell dont they go try knock him off his throne.

thats the only way

 

[UncleSam]

For those of you stating that "at least Snake has bad match ups, Meta Knight doesn't", you're a little misinformed.

Snakes only true bad match up is King Dedede. Snake is capable of taking on and taking out every other character, and with relative ease, with the players in question around near equal skill. All it requires is proper match up knowledge. If you really can't accept this, I suggest you look into Ally's Snake. He has only ever had trouble or lost a tournament set to either A) King Dedede or B) M2K. There's a good reason for this. He doesn't lose to Pikachu, he doesn't lose to Falco. King Dedede gets him though. Hence why Azen was able to take a set 3-1, with the first set merely having Azen sandbag.

Meta Knight (without going into debates on how many poor match ups he has), like Snake, has at least one poor match up. And that is Snake himself.

Isn't Diddy Kong becoming Mk's poor match-up?

 

[Dojo]

Isn't Diddy Kong becoming Mk's poor match-up?

Lol no. Just the MK's who clearly don't know the match-up. After having Diddy as my 2nd, and learning how to play with nana's, Diddy's not all that bad.

 

[Nic64]

diddy can be kind of hard but snake and olimar are still the toughest for me to beat as MK...actually falco is in there too, for some reason I do better against falco's with snake even though I'm better in general with MK and MK has a better matchup with him =/

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

isnt rob a somewhat bad matchup for snake? like 40-60 or something?

 

[Mew2King]

i think diddy has a small advantage over MK. It's not just me, because TC1 beat TKD at the big WC tourney recently and TDK won the last big WC tourney beating DSF in the finals.

 

[Samuelson]

TKD has very little Diddy Kong experience against Diddy Kong's of that skill level. SoCal doesn't have good Diddy Kong's and NorCal has very good ones. He pretty much didn't know what to do in that matchup I think.

 

[ShadowPhoenix951]

Meta Knight should be at the top, but he should be in the S tier alongside of Snake. They both have a few somewhat difficult matchups (DDD for Snake, Olimar, Diddy, and Snake for MK), great matchups against the rest of the cast, and great tourney results. The current tourney results are the only reason MK should have his own tier. Also, Snake's metagame isn't nearly as far along as metaknight's.

 

[The_Prince]

Meta Knight should be at the top, but he should be in the S tier alongside of Snake. They both have a few somewhat difficult matchups (DDD for Snake, Olimar, Diddy, and Snake for MK), great matchups against the rest of the cast, and great tourney results. The current tourney results are the only reason MK should have his own tier. Also, Snake's metagame isn't nearly as far along as metaknight's.

this is why I think that a ban wouldnt necessarily be bad for the community.

no, but really, I think that we need to get rid of all this MK stigma.

 

[Superspright]

ROB is a bad match up for snake. The laser and the gyro just slows everything down to a halt, and a good ROB can blow up his grenades as he drops them with his laser. Basically Snake is on the run the entire match.

 

[oOJaseOo]

ROB is a bad match up for snake. The laser and the gyro just slows everything down to a halt, and a good ROB can blow up his grenades as he drops them with his laser. Basically Snake is on the run the entire match.

i thought this was a MK thread.....

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Snake doesn't lose to D3...most people think so but it's not true for several reasons. D3 can't CG Snake very well. How could he? As long as a grenade lies behind Snake or Snake holds it in his hands it's over. Snake's dthrow tech chase is much more effective. D3s get up roll is really slow and predictable...it's easy for Snake to dish out more than 30% from one dthrow (regrabs, ftilt, etc), while D3 will have a hard time to CG Snake, especially if Snake camps on platforms. Snake has the advantage when it comes to KO the other one. D3 only has utilt but Snake's utilt is not only much better but Snake deals also more damage in less time.
One info I got from spam: If Dedede ever has to use his upB he loses a stock. Snake can ledgehog to force D3 to recover to the stage. If D3 lands all Snake has to do is a SH dair. It does not only deal more than 20% but it also knocks D3 off the stage again. If Snake is fast enough he can even fsmash D3 because the explosion is coompletely disjointed. As soon as Snake knocks D3 off the stage he can repeat thís process. Also for those who think that D3 wins because Azen defeated Ally you have to remember that Azen has a lot more experience than Ally and that Ally managed to beat Atomsk which is already a huge accomplishment. Maybe Ally was alread tired after his intense set with Boss and all the other matches? He might've been nervous too ... playing Azen in the losers finals is not easy to take... /johns
There is also some recent "evidence" that Snake wins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXh3Yh30Fc

Snake also beats Falco. He can crawl under the laser until he reaches ftilt or dtilt range. The only thing Falco has to beat the tilts is Shine which is punishable. Snake can just go into ftilt range and punish it with a mortar slide. Falcos grab sucks and Snake is hard to grab anyways. Falco will take easily 30% before he gets to CG Snake and even then it's not a big deal. Snake can tech chainspikes and the 60% he takes are the 60% advantage he has in weight and KO power. Snake deals a lot more damage per hit and once Snake is out of CG % he can just **** Falco. He has more range, speed and KO power than Falco, who has KO issues anyways. Good luck trying to KO Snake if you can't spike him anymore.

Snake has no bad match-up's. He's the best character whether he beats MK or not. Even if the MK match-up is 5/5 Snake still does better against Falco, Diddy Kong, Olimar and Kirby. So what if MK does better against Falcon, Samus or Pokémon Trainer? It's not like those characters have a notable impact on the Metagame. I think MK has reached his peak ... or Snake at least still has more potential left. I think some Snakes play certain match-up's wrong like the D3 match-up's. When I see spam beating Vex's D3 I can see that Snake still can improve in some match-up's. MK on the other hand doesn't seem to have that much room for improvement anymore...on the contrary, a bunch of characters have been proven to de decently well against MK and go about even with him (even if we ignore Diddy) ... there's Snake who's at least even, Kirby who's even, Wario who's even and maybe even Zamus...

I'm pretty sure Snake will turn out to be the best character. However, it's hard to argue that MK isn't the best character right now. His Metagame is the most advanced by far and currently that's what matters the most. Giving him his own tier though is ridicoulus. There's no way in hell that MK will ever be a tier highe than Snake and two tiers higher than Falco, no matter what the SBR says. All 3 characters are completely broken and belong in the same tier.

 

[ZesuBen]

The tier list is a combination of opinion and data. Metaknight's ability contributes, but so do his tournament results and his advanced metagame. Maybe Snake is as good or better than MK, but until people start Snaking better ranks in tournaments, Metaknight will be higher.

Don't yell at me, though. I'm sick.

 

[metaXzero]

Kirby and Wario may not have it that bad against MK, but I wouldn't call it even.

 

[Gates]

Snake doesn't lose to D3...most people think so but it's not true for several reasons. D3 can't CG Snake very well. How could he? As long as a grenade lies behind Snake or Snake holds it in his hands it's over. Snake's dthrow tech chase is much more effective. D3s get up roll is really slow and predictable...it's easy for Snake to dish out more than 30% from one dthrow (regrabs, ftilt, etc), while D3 will have a hard time to CG Snake, especially if Snake camps on platforms. Snake has the advantage when it comes to KO the other one. D3 only has utilt but Snake's utilt is not only much better but Snake deals also more damage in less time.
One info I got from spam: If Dedede ever has to use his upB he loses a stock. Snake can ledgehog to force D3 to recover to the stage. If D3 lands all Snake has to do is a SH dair. It does not only deal more than 20% but it also knocks D3 off the stage again. If Snake is fast enough he can even fsmash D3 because the explosion is coompletely disjointed. As soon as Snake knocks D3 off the stage he can repeat thís process. Also for those who think that D3 wins because Azen defeated Ally you have to remember that Azen has a lot more experience than Ally and that Ally managed to beat Atomsk which is already a huge accomplishment. Maybe Ally was alread tired after his intense set with Boss and all the other matches? He might've been nervous too ... playing Azen in the losers finals is not easy to take... /johns
There is also some recent "evidence" that Snake wins:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXh3Yh30Fc
[...]
When I see spam beating Vex's D3 I can see that Snake still can improve in some match-up's.
[...]

Everything I bolded is wrong.

Dedede can chaingrab Snake fine. If there's a grenade behind you, we'll dthrow you up to it and let it explode on you, then go for the chaingrab again. We can also ftilt or dtilt you instead of continuing the grab. If you platform camp we can uair you from underneath since you're in an inherently bad position simply due to the nature of Brawl. Snake's dthrow techchase is a nice trick but it's extremely inconsistent and relies heavily on prediction and saying that it's better than Dedede's CG is ignorant and absurd.

Saying that if Dedede has to upB it means he'll lose a stock is also a gigantic exaggeration. Yes, we are in a bad position, but that doesn't mean it's an auto-kill by any means. Likewise, I could say that if Snake ever gets off the stage he could be gimped easily by any one of a thousand ways. It's also an extreme exaggeration of something that is true. When Snake gets off the stage, Dedede has a ton of options. We could WoP him, grab him out of upB, land on the cypher with our upB, Dededecide, or just edgeguard with bair.

You're also ignorant of how many kill moves each character has. Snake has more ways to kill than Dedede, but Dedede certainly has more than the utilt. As I mentioned before, our off the stage game can gimp you. We also can mindgame a smash attack or Jet Hammer to kill even earlier than we would with utilt. In fact, due to the nature of Snake'e recovery, Jet hammer kills aren't as far out of reach as they usually are (though it's still unlikely).

Nobody thinks Dedede wins the matchup because Azen beat Ally. They think it because Dedede has shown the ability to consistently beat Snake a majority of the time.

The video example was bad too. Vex was playing so badly in that match that I almost stopped watching halfway through. I can point out a ton of mistakes he made throughout the match but it would take too much time. You say that when you saw it that it gave you hope for the matchup to swing in Snake's favor. When I saw it, I just saw a Dedede that wasn't as good as I thought.

And if you're going to provide video examples, I will too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPxOzFyaf3Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sE-Btf1jF8U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLIl7Z4Hpxw&feature=related