MK SS Tier! (tier discussion)

[ShadowPhoenix951]

Isn't this discussion supposed to be about whether or not MK deserves the SS tier, and not Snake's matchup with D3?

 

[Vorguen]

Snake's matchup against DDD is very relevant to the Meta Knight boards and Meta Knight SS Tier threads. Discussions about Meta Knight should be regarded as spam.

 

[Nic64]

Snake still does better against Falco, Diddy Kong, Olimar and Kirby

I'm torn on most of those but I'm pretty sure MK does much better against kirby than snake, MK doesn't get ***** in the air by other flying characters and he has a much easier time avoiding kirby's KO attacks in my experience. what does kirby have on MK that he doesn't have on snake but better?

a bunch of characters have been proven to de decently well against MK and go about even with him (even if we ignore Diddy) ... there's Snake who's at least even, Kirby who's even, Wario who's even and maybe even Zamus...

wario and kirby are even with MK now? I don't see it, maybe it's closer than 6:4, but not even.

EDIT:

Isn't this discussion supposed to be about whether or not MK deserves the SS tier, and not Snake's matchup with D3?

there is some relevance in that snakes matchups are part of what determines if MK is alone. personally I think top tier should be MK/Snake/Falco as they each have 1-2 bad matchups and are pretty close IMO. on that subject, I think DDD has a slight advantage against snake but not much more than what snake has on MK...

 

[Cease Tick]

I'm torn on most of those but I'm pretty sure MK does much better against kirby than snake, MK doesn't get ***** in the air by other flying characters and he has a much easier time avoiding kirby's KO attacks in my experience. what does kirby have on MK that he doesn't have on snake but better?

Kirby actually does do better against MK than against Snake. Kirby does much better in the air against MK than most characters do and can kill him pretty quickly (but it isn't even, it's still 55:45 MK). Snake can take advantage of Kirby's hard time approaching and can kill him at very low %s. Plus he lives forever.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm torn on most of those but I'm pretty sure MK does much better against kirby than snake, MK doesn't get ***** in the air by other flying characters and he has a much easier time avoiding kirby's KO attacks in my experience. what does kirby have on MK that he doesn't have on snake but better?

Kirby does really well vs MK. On the ground Kirby only needs SH bair (no contradiction!) basically. The best move MK has against it is fsmash....if Kirby sees the fsmash coming he can just inhale and steal the tornado. Even if Kirbys spacing is sloppy it's not a big deal...as long as Kirbys bair clanks with MKs moves it's Kirbys advantage...the point is getting MK in the air...what can he do if Kirby always gets below him? Kirby can always wait for the airdodge or the dair and punish both with either utilt or usmash and repeat thee process. If MKlands you can grab himand throw him in the air again. I find MKc reletively easy to juggle...why? Because MK is so slow in the air...as long as you're below him you don't have to worry about the tornado or the shuttle loop.

Kirby is surprisingly good at edgeguarding MK ... his bair beats all of MKs aerial B moves (cuz aerial shuttle loop has no invincibility). There's a lot more to say about this match-up ... Kirby is really good at getting out of the Nado ... and Kirbys KO power just outshines MKs...
Kirby is actually very similar to MK. Neither of them has big weaknesses but Kirby has better KO power and aerial mobility (less priority, speed and his moves are a bit more unsafe).

Snake is more difficult imo. Snakes ftilt beats Kirbys bair from my experience and the utilt KOs really early. I find Snakes utilt a lot harder to DI than Meta dsmash....he deals more dmg per hit...Snake is worse for Kirby than MK is.

wario and kirby are even with MK now? I don't see it, maybe it's closer than 6:4, but not even.

Warios uair is really nasty...it can beat Metas dair and if Wario gets MK in the air it's a similar situation as in the Kirby match-up...he can just camp underneath a platform and prevent MK from getting to the ground again. The fsmash beats all of MKs moves anyways - it's really broken move more broken than any of MKs moves. Half charged farts have abnormal KO power and are basically a guaranteed KO @100%. Oh and good luck trying to KO that fat*** anytime before 130%, that won't happen.


Note that these are my personal experiences...I don't claim any of my explanations as 100% true and idiotproof. I might have overseen something and I could be wrong but that's the way I see these match-up's.

 

[CaliburChamp]

MK and Snake should be in the same tier in my opinion. It's just that there are more MK players competitively, more so than Snake players. MK playstyle is more fun, and he is a cool character. Snake has everything you could want in a character, but some people don't like camping style characters, so they rather play MK over Snake.
That's the biggest mistake SBR made. Putting them both in the same tier. It should be like this...

S Tier
Metaknight
Snake

or like this...

S Tier
Snake
Metaknight

 

[Nic64]

Kirby does really well vs MK. On the ground Kirby only needs SH bair (no contradiction!) basically.

shuttle loop, nair out of shield, I believe MK's own bair outranges it...also you later say that bair will stop tornado but from what I have been able to test this appears to usually not be the case, and at best it only cancels it I never got kirby's bair to knock MK out of it

The best move MK has against it is fsmash....if Kirby sees the fsmash coming he can just inhale and steal the tornado.

if it's well spaced you shouldn't be able to do this, the distance kirby can swallow from is about the same as the fsmash's range actually, so a charge release will usually either hit kirby or go unpunished.

Even if Kirbys spacing is sloppy it's not a big deal...as long as Kirbys bair clanks with MKs moves it's Kirbys advantage...the point is getting MK in the air...what can he do if Kirby always gets below him? Kirby can always wait for the airdodge or the dair and punish both with either utilt or usmash and repeat thee process. If MKlands you can grab himand throw him in the air again. I find MKc reletively easy to juggle...why? Because MK is so slow in the air...as long as you're below him you don't have to worry about the tornado or the shuttle loop.

what can MK do? run away. you have an easy time juggling MK's because most people who play meta knight are stupid and think they are invincible because they play the best character, it's not hard for him to simply run off stage and grab the ledge where he can more easily reset the game to neutral or advantaged, and he won't need to go to that length most of the time. also pretty sure you shouldn't be able to punish dair with either of those attacks if he jumps simultaneously, you can shield it, but a few hits to diminish your shield and you're no longer safe from tornado, and could make an fair to dtilt landing more reliable as it could shield stab you on the dtilt, although maybe an out of shield aerial could work for kirby here. not saying it's easy by any means, but I still don't think this makes it even

Kirby is surprisingly good at edgeguarding MK ... his bair beats all of MKs aerial B moves (cuz aerial shuttle loop has no invincibility). There's a lot more to say about this match-up ... Kirby is really good at getting out of the Nado ... and Kirbys KO power just outshines MKs...
Kirby is actually very similar to MK. Neither of them has big weaknesses but Kirby has better KO power and aerial mobility (less priority, speed and his moves are a bit more unsafe).

aside from me not being able to get kirby's bair to beat tornado consistently(or actually damage MK in the process at all), he is mobile during it and can bait the bair and then move at you. I'd agree that kirby is one of the few characters that can edge guard MK to some extent but it goes both ways.

kirby definitely has an advantage in raw KO power but I also think MK's kill moves are easier to land and safer if they miss. kirby definitely discourages any offensive use of tornado, is harder to edge guard than most, has power, and is also a well rounded character, but I still have to think it's 55:45 MK

Snake is more difficult imo. Snakes ftilt beats Kirbys bair from my experience and the utilt KOs really early. I find Snakes utilt a lot harder to DI than Meta dsmash....he deals more dmg per hit...Snake is worse for Kirby than MK is.

snake is difficult to approach, it's just that once you've done that, he has a much, much harder time than meta knight reseting the situation or turning it against you. that's also probably slightly out of kirby's favor but I don't see how it's harder than meta knight when you can't really put meta knight in a bad situation, as long as he's not stupid enough to just run straight back at you after being knocked into the air and such.

The fsmash beats all of MKs moves anyways - it's really broken move more broken than any of MKs moves.

I have cursed the super armor on this attack many times...but typically wario can only fsmash if meta knight commits a spacing error or some kind of mistake because of the range. it is disgustingly good though

Half charged farts have abnormal KO power and are basically a guaranteed KO @100%. Oh and good luck trying to KO that fat*** anytime before 130%, that won't happen.

yeah, if wario can land fart attacks on you regularly, you definitely lose your advantage, in fact wario probably has the advantage if he lands all his farts. just have to be careful about that...I guess this is where it gets difficult to really say anything, maybe it could be considered even in that wario needs to exploit just one mistake to get a ridiculous low % kill or massive damage, but whether or not that happens is up to the players so it is hard to analyze it in terms of character advantages...

Note that these are my personal experiences...I don't claim any of my explanations as 100% true and idiotproof. I might have overseen something and I could be wrong but that's the way I see these match-up's.

same here, and I'll even add the disclaimer that I think I've faced much better/more good wario's than kirby's, so it's quite possible that I am horridly wrong something especially regarding kirby lol

 

[DyranMahBoooiii]

Mewtwo can answer to Meta Knight.

 

[kook_U]

Snake also beats Falco. He can crawl under the laser until he reaches ftilt or dtilt range. The only thing Falco has to beat the tilts is Shine which is punishable. Snake can just go into ftilt range and punish it with a mortar slide. Falcos grab sucks and Snake is hard to grab anyways. Falco will take easily 30% before he gets to CG Snake and even then it's not a big deal. Snake can tech chainspikes and the 60% he takes are the 60% advantage he has in weight and KO power. Snake deals a lot more damage per hit and once Snake is out of CG % he can just **** Falco. He has more range, speed and KO power than Falco, who has KO issues anyways. Good luck trying to KO Snake if you can't spike him

Howeer, it's hard to argue that MK isn't the best character right now. His Metagame is the most advanced by far and currently that's what matters the most. Giving him his own tier though is ridicoulus. There's no way in hell that MK will ever be a tier highe than Snake and two tiers higher than Falco, no matter what the SBR says. All 3 characters are completely broken and belong in the same tier.

[/QUOTE]

uhhhh no.....
there matchup is equal, Snake and falco.
Falco has range on Snake because he can SHL/SHDL snake which also blows up snakes grenades.
lol, Putting out a shine is punishable but crawling under the lasers isn't? You can approach with SHL and Dair, which gets you past the crawl, or even SHL, side B which also gets you past snakes crawl.
Falco's grab sucks? CG is very useful in this matchup, and spikeing snake isn't very hard.
Not sure how Snake wins this matchup, and the D3 matchup is a bad match for him, when Ally beats a good player that uses D3 your like see Snake is better, but when ally loses against Aziens D3 all of a sudden that loss doesn't count because he has more experience? the game hasn't even been out for a year no one has any big experience lead.

 

[Master Raven]

Gates, that third link you posted has Candy pretty much JV 2-stocking Korn. >_>

 

[Gates]

Oops, I meant to link this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLIl7Z4Hpxw&feature=related

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

All I can really say about metaknight's ranking are two things:

1. SS=Schutzstaffel. MK is a nazi!
2. He deserves it.

The second one has nothing to do with the first one. MK is really a good head above every other character; and shoulder, whole body, and stilts above a very large percentage of those.

 

[turtlecake]

I think its stupid that they copied japans format of a tier list this time around.

Really stupid, actually.

 

[DyranMahBoooiii]

I think its stupid that they copied japans format of a tier list this time around.

Really stupid, actually.

Agreed. What happened to the much simpler High to Bottom format?

 

[turtlecake]

They decided to be copy cats and **** suck japan.

 

[kook_U]

Agreed. What happened to the much simpler High to Bottom format?

idk.........i just don't know.

 

[Vorguen]

Their main reasoning was to show the gap between characters.

Top Tier:

Meta Knight
Snake
Falco


makes it seem a lot more even than

SS:
Meta Knight

S:
Snake

A:
Falco


Now you don't think MK, Snake, and Falco are the top three best. Now you think, Meta Knight is without disputes the best there is, with Snake coming second but not close.

 

[Hylian]

You people have no idea what you are talking about.

We didn't "Copy" the japanese. The japanese were not even discussed when we were talking about rankings. A LOT of fighting games use letter for tier lists. Almost all of them actually. It's actually simplier to have just letters then say Top/high etc. Much simpler. Top/high/low is pretty arbitrary and really doesn't look good at all.


Now, why are people saying why we put MK in his own tier blah blah. Why all the speculation? Are any of you in the SBR? No? Then listen and stop assuming. We did it because of the numbers and gaps between them. There was a significant gap between MK and Snake. There was also a significant gap between snake and falco. There was a gap at every tier seperation and we used a certain threashold to determine that. The numbers are all there. MK is in his own tier because every single person in the SBR thought he was the best character in the game. So he got a perfect score. It's not because we think he's THAT much better then everyone, it's just numbers. We all agree he is the best in the game, so he got those numbers. This never happened in melee because we could never agree on Fox/Marth/Shiek/Falco being 1st.


Please please please stop posting assumptions.

Also, stop spamming.

 

[turtlecake]

You people have no idea what you are talking about.

We didn't "Copy" the japanese. The japanese were not even discussed when we were talking about rankings. A LOT of fighting games use letter for tier lists. Almost all of them actually. It's actually simplier to have just letters then say Top/high etc. Much simpler. Top/high/low is pretty arbitrary and really doesn't look good at all.


Now, why are people saying why we put MK in his own tier blah blah. Why all the speculation? Are any of you in the SBR? No? Then listen and stop assuming. We did it because of the numbers and gaps between them. There was a significant gap between MK and Snake. There was also a significant gap between snake and falco. There was a gap at every tier seperation and we used a certain threashold to determine that. The numbers are all there. MK is in his own tier because every single person in the SBR thought he was the best character in the game. So he got a perfect score. It's not because we think he's THAT much better then everyone, it's just numbers. We all agree he is the best in the game, so he got those numbers. This never happened in melee because we could never agree on Fox/Marth/Shiek/Falco being 1st.


Please please please stop posting assumptions.

Also, stop spamming.

lol

The Japanese have been using the letter format for tier lists since forever, and even outside of smash. This is the first time the smash community has officially used a letter format tier list.

At least speculate to us as to which characters on that list are low tier

because technically, there is no low tier now.

 

[Chileno4Live]

This format looks okay to me, i sort of agree with Hylian with all that he said. Though, on the smashwiki site, it looks messy, other than that, the format looks pretty good. Snake is good indeed, but has bad match-ups. Meta-Knight's match-ups are almost all in his favor except for a few iirc.

 

[Vorguen]

Don't you mean except for all of them? lol

 

[Nic64]

Snake is good indeed, but has bad match-ups.

kenyan mangrove crab is in brawl!?

Don't you mean except for all of them? lol

a few even ones and some people say snake is bad I think it's about even though

 

[WingedKnight]

In my humble opinion, as someone who has spent a fair amount of time maining the Knight, I do not believe he needs his own tier. Best character in the game? Yes, I admit it. A whole tier above the rest? NO way! Exceptional? Definitely. Cheap, or broken? I don't think so. Might sound weird from someone who uses him, but I'm hoping people discover some HUGE weakness so people don't constantly whine about him being broken. I like MK for his character, I'd use him if he was near unusable. I want to be able to use him with honor again, without being labled a nub or cheap.

 

[Sunshine Bear]

Meta Knight deserves to be in his own tier in every conceivable way.

I haven't lost a single Snake match with MK so... =\

 

[~Allie.M~]

-points to sig- I think the tier list is right.

 

[Deleted member]

the SS Tier was my idea. It was initially MK and snake for S tier, and then MK's data gap placed him above snake. It was then S+ Tier, but I'm a fire emblem geek so I suggested SS Tier instead.

get over yourselves.

 

[goldemblem]

No, i think it is wrong, metaknight should be higher on that tier list. XD

 

[_Phloat_]

-points to sig- I think the tier list is right.

You didn't post a sig. Your quick replies won't have them attached unless you click the box. Welcome to smashboards =]

the SS Tier was my idea. It was initially MK and snake for S tier, and then MK's data gap placed him above snake. It was then S+ Tier, but I'm a fire emblem geek so I suggested SS Tier instead.

get over yourselves.

CAN'T YOU SEE YOU ARE TEARING THIS COMMUNITY APART!!!!!

 

[~Allie.M~]

You didn't post a sig. Your quick replies won't have them attached unless you click the box. Welcome to smashboards =]

Thank you. But I didn't do a quick reply o3o. Why wont it show?

it shows now