MK Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205614
Sheik Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=248288
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Just simply f-tilt him and needle camp. It is the simplest MU in the game and you don't have anything to worry about.
I say, 70:30 Sheik.
:WILL EDIT WITH SERIOUSNESS LATER:
Great input man but i dont think ur numbers match ur discussion. We go almost even with MK on stage. But with MK over half of the game is played offstage. I'm partly saying this because i think MK is THE most under rated character in the game but i dont think we go even close to that even with him. Nor do i think anyone else does that well.So I happen to actually enjoy this matchup a lot. One of my favorite matchups in the game. I think Sheik goes fairly even with MK on stage, the problem in this matchup for Sheik shows when she is attempting to recover.
Sheiks incredibly fast frames allow her to hit in between and punish certain moves that MK can use at will against other characters. He can't just dair camp like he can with a lot of other characters because of Sheiks up air combined with the acceleration on her double jump. You also can disturb his landing after he runs out of jumps with a needle storm. You can't really challenge MK in the air with your aerials, but you can sneak one in after a powershield or small openings. Utilt is also great against him if you manage to get underneath him. A quick nair does wonders after a powershield as well.
Ftilt can lock MK for a good amount of damage, it's harder to land ftilts in this matchup because of MK's insane range on his ftilt and dtilt. I find more success with spaced SH bairs/fairs and jab than ftilt in this matchup tbh. Dash attack can punish shielded dsmashes from MK. Jab cancelling doesnt work very often against MK from my experiences.
MK has to approach Sheik so you can somewhat dictate the way he has to play in that he is going to approach from the air. He also has to play extra careful in this matchup because one grab could mean 27%. I'd advise to GR DACUS every grab that you get.....you wont get many opportunities.
Recovery is a pain. I would just DI well, save your double jump, and b-reverse so you can bair on your way back to the stage. If MK grabs the ledge your more than likely going to be punished. you can also use needles and vanish if the MK doesn't know the MU....but other than that it is very hard.
I think it's 45-55 MK advantage. 50-50 on FD.
outside of FD i honestly dont agree with this unless you are willing to time him outMK has to approach Sheik so you can somewhat dictate the way he has to play in that he is going to approach from the air.
how much damage does GR dash attack do instead?He also has to play extra careful in this matchup because one grab could mean 27%. I'd advise to GR DACUS every grab that you get.....you wont get many opportunities.
No i agree with you on the concepts of the match completely. We can totally win if we stay on the ground. The issue is that once we get like past 60% we go into the air and into a stupid juggle state after almost every hit. And we are in a huge disadvantageous situation when that happens. If we can stay on the stage we can compete and go toe to toe with MK.Judo, I'm gonna have to disagree man.
We can definitely beat MK as long as the match stays on the stage. However, I do agree that offstage is terribad with him.
Our biggest problem isn't getting gimped but it's actually getting back on the stage from the ledge and resetting your field position. That honestly makes me believe the match has to be 6-4 MK. It's honestly the most miserable part of the MU. I can't even describe how frustrating that part of the MU is.
GAAAAAAAAAH.............
Hah.......i just contradicted myself and agreed with ya on the ratio. DERP.
Yes, DA is awesome.DA is 7% I believe, pummels are 3% (but slow)
Also, Sheik can punish MK's downsmash better than just about anyone in the game due to her speed and ridiculous range. If you have good enough reaction time you can get a dash grab every single time it hits your shield. If you're not confident with that, just go for a da.
Meh. I'm not too awe stricken with MK tbh. Very slow in the air and he's extremely light. Yes, he is the best character in the game and his pressure game is insane, but he does have weaknesses. I think there are several characters that go even with MK on nuetral stages.Great input man but i dont think ur numbers match ur discussion. We go almost even with MK on stage. But with MK over half of the game is played offstage. I'm partly saying this because i think MK is THE most under rated character in the game but i dont think we go even close to that even with him. Nor do i think anyone else does that well.
Also i included recovering with getting back to the ground in juggle states cause thats a huge part 2 and thats why i say half of the match.
Sheik has all the best gimmicks in the world on MK. But MK's staple game is just waaaaaaayyyyyy too good compared to ours IMO. I think 6/4 at the best tbh.
Although again i actually believe that people like snake and diddy are 6/4 against MK and that we are closer to 65/35. I think Falco might be the only character that i truly believe can go 55/45 (MKs adv) with MK Provided MK doesnt plank. BUt its still MK's advantage IMO.
I would highly recommend NOT switching to Zelda at all, even with a lead. There is literally nothing she can do to land a kill move safely on MK.This is one of the few matchups that I'm all for Zelda transformation because of MK's poor air speed. Honestly, if I have a % lead with Zelda I am not doing a god **** thing until he approaches except for maybe crouching under dair camping.
Also, the MLG stage list makes this matchup even dumber.
60:40
With a percentage lead i'm fairly confident that needles are enough to make MK approach.outside of FD i honestly dont agree with this unless you are willing to time him out
I'd say go for it at any percent. It's hard to get grabs on MK anyways and I highly doubt you will land a grab at the perfect percentage for Usmash to kill anyways.As most are aware, we have a grab release dacus on MK. Now, I'm somewhat torn on what to do when you actually 'do' get a grab on MK. When he's 90-95%, I'd honestly say go for the dacus if the stage's ceiling isn't ridiculously high. However, any lower than that, and I'd personally just save the Dacus. That's just me though. You can needle storm or dash attack in the place of dacus though if you're uncomfortable with your ability to do it. You'll more than likely kill MK a lot later without the dacus though.
you would literally have to play with the mindset to time the metaknight out, and something tells me it wouldnt happen xDWith a percentage lead i'm fairly confident that needles are enough to make MK approach.
then youre one of the smart ones :DI'm kinda in the boat that says don't switch to Zelda, imo getting a grab with sheik -> kill move is far easier than landing a kill move w/ Zelda against a GOOD MK rofl. I find that I tend to switch to Zelda only on bad MKs or ones that are clueless at the MU. I feel that with the capability to land a guaranteed kill move (that the setup can be achieved very easily due to Sheik's mixup game rofl), why sacrifice your safety? This is also coming from someone that is a big advocate in using Zelda as an alternative in certain spots of trouble.
I think whether u land GR DACUS or not before kill percents depends on how the MK is playing. Sheik is a fast character and not getting grabbed is harder than people think. IC's find ways of getting grab and we are way better at it. If ur not getting very many then go for it but i tend to get quite a good number or grabs.
Also MK's only real weakness is his airspeed. He's not really light cause his DI ability is the best in the game. 9 frame aerial is retardedly good for DI. MK's airspeed is slow....too bad ours is too.
And i honestly don't think MK isn't as good as i say he is. MK is freaking incredible and IMO a whole lot better than everyone. Snake boards are starting to think its actually 6/4 MK. Diddy boards have mentioned the same thing. Falco maybe except MK can plank. LIke MK beats everyone worse than ppl think IMO.
Yea i get what ur saying. We can beat MK's and no they wont always win i just hate how good that bat is.What I meant by that was more along the lines of I doubt your usmash will be decayed to the point where it wont KO at normal KO percentages.
MK still dies very early to vertical KO moves. He does survive horizontally forever though.
Meh to each his own. MK's don't win every tournament and they never will. M2K used to say that the best character in the game is a ultra defensive, smart Olimar.
not just for the walk off second phase gives us a safe place to stand and do any thing we want whether its decay our ftilt or throw uairs through the floor. Seriously phase 2 of CS is so strong for us in this MU. He has to just stay above us and watch of for uairs the whole time. Phase 3 is FD and phase 1 i just chain camp him the whole time.Sigh, I think m2k is gonna be at my house again 2moro.
I will try and get him to play with me. I'll do everything I can but the last time this happened, there was a small beat down on PS1. I feel like if i am perfect in my execution though, I can definitely give myself a shot.
Stupid Perfection...........
Also, PS1 is really bad for us. Our best cp aside from FD is CS imo. IF and only if MK decides to fight you on the bottom level, we can ruin him fast with a grab. Now if he aircamps like he should, decay your Ftilt ASAP! We can then tilt lock him with far less worry of them breaking out. This however isn't saying that he can't because he probably can since he's MKl I need to test it.
Strange thought for a cp but I'm thinking outside the box.......PTAD? If it's legal? Thoughts?
Anyway, Our best chances are to win game 1 and head back to a neutral on game 3. Though it's possible we can win on any stage, it is less likely due to the fact that it is MK. Simply put.
For now I will say we are 60-40 yet again but all depending n what the MK tries to do. We have the tools to do something against all his plans but it's still a matter of no mistakes for us.
Yea i used to cp it but then yea snake started happening. Dont get me wrong snake isnt like ALOT better than us on this stage but it really is a cp waste.Call me crazy but I love Halberd against MK, you just have to be conscious of the sharking. Low ceiling plus tons of room to manuever. Only problem is usually when I cp Halberd, the MK switches to Snake and I die at like 80 lol.
Pull out that pocket D3Yea i used to cp it but then yea snake started happening. Dont get me wrong snake isnt like ALOT better than us on this stage but it really is a cp waste.
Eh, are you talking about when you were trying to recover? Usually if you use aerial needles when edge guarding MK wouldn't dair just hit you back towards the stage?trying to stop Seibrik with needles is the main way I died off stage. He'd fast fall under then or jump over them 70% of the time and I'd be caught still in the animation and get Daired really far out.
Do you mean he was always guarding that option or you were able to use that option against him?when I was playing M2K he was way for ledge drop to airdodge on stage.
Clarify?I also like sheik's jump on.
Does it work that well? Sheik has just a bit of hang time at the peak of her second jump but just enough to make it more vulnerable than like an Ike that does this, but that's mainly because she is curled up in a tight ball. I guess I just need to space the double jump perfectly, thanks for the tips, can you just clarify the ones I asked about?Oh, and the good old fation jump on stage. just jump right on the tip of the stage at the peak of your second jump after the ledge drop from there you can sheild jab dsmash is actually fine in these situations because if they sheild you'll just slide off and regrab.
Depends on how high you are and how you are DIing...Eh, are you talking about when you were trying to recover? Usually if you use aerial needles when edge guarding MK wouldn't dair just hit you back towards the stage?
I never really did. I'm a big fan of stand on ->jab or roll on->roll. its was habitual.M2K suggested just ledge drop jump on with an air dodge...Do you mean he was always guarding that option or you were able to use that option against him?
when you are on the edge and you press jump. it give her really good height and depending on the stage you have platforms as options your second jump and worst case vanish as stalls and resets. if you are uncomfortable you can just return to the ledge.Clarify?
It works pretty well for me. I jump on Jab sometimes (normally at low percents) you want to sneak just up on the ledge at the very tip of that second jump. I ledge drop regrab a few times normally before hand as well to get the pattern in peoples head before I jump on stage. sheiks jab is normally fast enough to beat out peoples reaction espeacially when they don't expect it.Does it work that well? Sheik has just a bit of hang time at the peak of her second jump but just enough to make it more vulnerable than like an Ike that does this, but that's mainly because she is curled up in a tight ball. I guess I just need to space the double jump perfectly, thanks for the tips, can you just clarify the ones I asked about?