MK Matchup Discussion

[-Mars-]

MK Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205614

Sheik Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=248288

 

[saviorslegacy]

Just simply f-tilt him and needle camp. It is the simplest MU in the game and you don't have anything to worry about.
I say, 70:30 Sheik.

:WILL EDIT WITH SERIOUSNESS LATER:
I think I'll leave this here since it was quoted.



Okay, this is a very important match up because there is such a high percentage of MK players. We have GR options on him, but he is usually smart and will ban FD and shoot for BF. So make sure you know how to play the platforms, both on and below.

Punishing is very important. You can punish the end of Nado with DA. DA can punsih a lot, so use it wisely. It hits on frame 7 and does 7%. Jabs are also very important for interrupting him. He will try to space away from you like every good player. So take advantage of DA to punish him after a Fair or f-tilt. You should, however, never use DA when he is below 40%, you will most surely be punished.

Be careful with your usage of needles. If he is close enough that you can DA him you have no business touching the B button.

 

[thexsunrosered]

Just simply f-tilt him and needle camp. It is the simplest MU in the game and you don't have anything to worry about.
I say, 70:30 Sheik.

:WILL EDIT WITH SERIOUSNESS LATER:

I was seriously about to **** the crap out of you, but then I read then end.

successful SL troll is successful

 

[-Mars-]

So I happen to actually enjoy this matchup a lot. One of my favorite matchups in the game. I think Sheik goes fairly even with MK on stage, the problem in this matchup for Sheik shows when she is attempting to recover.

Sheiks incredibly fast frames allow her to hit in between and punish certain moves that MK can use at will against other characters. He can't just dair camp like he can with a lot of other characters because of Sheiks up air combined with the acceleration on her double jump. You also can disturb his landing after he runs out of jumps with a needle storm. You can't really challenge MK in the air with your aerials, but you can sneak one in after a powershield or small openings. Utilt is also great against him if you manage to get underneath him. A quick nair does wonders after a powershield as well.

Ftilt can lock MK for a good amount of damage, it's harder to land ftilts in this matchup because of MK's insane range on his ftilt and dtilt. I find more success with spaced SH bairs/fairs and jab than ftilt in this matchup tbh. Dash attack can punish shielded dsmashes from MK. Jab cancelling doesnt work very often against MK from my experiences.

MK has to approach Sheik so you can somewhat dictate the way he has to play in that he is going to approach from the air. He also has to play extra careful in this matchup because one grab could mean 27%. I'd advise to GR DACUS every grab that you get.....you wont get many opportunities.

Recovery is a pain. I would just DI well, save your double jump, and b-reverse so you can bair on your way back to the stage. If MK grabs the ledge your more than likely going to be punished. you can also use needles and vanish if the MK doesn't know the MU....but other than that it is very hard.

I think it's 45-55 MK advantage. 50-50 on FD.

 

[Judo777]

So I happen to actually enjoy this matchup a lot. One of my favorite matchups in the game. I think Sheik goes fairly even with MK on stage, the problem in this matchup for Sheik shows when she is attempting to recover.

Sheiks incredibly fast frames allow her to hit in between and punish certain moves that MK can use at will against other characters. He can't just dair camp like he can with a lot of other characters because of Sheiks up air combined with the acceleration on her double jump. You also can disturb his landing after he runs out of jumps with a needle storm. You can't really challenge MK in the air with your aerials, but you can sneak one in after a powershield or small openings. Utilt is also great against him if you manage to get underneath him. A quick nair does wonders after a powershield as well.

Ftilt can lock MK for a good amount of damage, it's harder to land ftilts in this matchup because of MK's insane range on his ftilt and dtilt. I find more success with spaced SH bairs/fairs and jab than ftilt in this matchup tbh. Dash attack can punish shielded dsmashes from MK. Jab cancelling doesnt work very often against MK from my experiences.

MK has to approach Sheik so you can somewhat dictate the way he has to play in that he is going to approach from the air. He also has to play extra careful in this matchup because one grab could mean 27%. I'd advise to GR DACUS every grab that you get.....you wont get many opportunities.

Recovery is a pain. I would just DI well, save your double jump, and b-reverse so you can bair on your way back to the stage. If MK grabs the ledge your more than likely going to be punished. you can also use needles and vanish if the MK doesn't know the MU....but other than that it is very hard.

I think it's 45-55 MK advantage. 50-50 on FD.

Great input man but i dont think ur numbers match ur discussion. We go almost even with MK on stage. But with MK over half of the game is played offstage. I'm partly saying this because i think MK is THE most under rated character in the game but i dont think we go even close to that even with him. Nor do i think anyone else does that well.

Also i included recovering with getting back to the ground in juggle states cause thats a huge part 2 and thats why i say half of the match.

Sheik has all the best gimmicks in the world on MK. But MK's staple game is just waaaaaaayyyyyy too good compared to ours IMO. I think 6/4 at the best tbh.

Although again i actually believe that people like snake and diddy are 6/4 against MK and that we are closer to 65/35. I think Falco might be the only character that i truly believe can go 55/45 (MKs adv) with MK Provided MK doesnt plank. BUt its still MK's advantage IMO.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Judo, I'm gonna have to disagree man.

We can definitely beat MK as long as the match stays on the stage. However, I do agree that offstage is terribad with him.

Our biggest problem isn't getting gimped but it's actually getting back on the stage from the ledge and resetting your field position. That honestly makes me believe the match has to be 6-4 MK. It's honestly the most miserable part of the MU. I can't even describe how frustrating that part of the MU is.

GAAAAAAAAAH.............

Hah.......i just contradicted myself and agreed with ya on the ratio. DERP.

 

[riocosta123]

God, the ledge situation is absolutely the dumbest. I highly recommend practicing vanishing onto the stage at cancel height/angles so that you at least give yourself a shot (not that I do this every time, but it can help you get on the stage an extra 1 or 2 times). At the very least it's a more difficult guessing game than Sheik's terribad ledge options. If you have good DI I like to vanish straight downwards if MK is coming after me. Again, this will work maybe once or twice (I always prepare my DI on my vanish/recovery as if I'm going to get hit).

This is one of the few matchups that I'm all for Zelda transformation because of MK's poor air speed. Honestly, if I have a % lead with Zelda I am not doing a god **** thing until he approaches except for maybe crouching under dair camping.

Also, the MLG stage list makes this matchup even dumber.

60:40

 

[Orion*]

MK has to approach Sheik so you can somewhat dictate the way he has to play in that he is going to approach from the air.

outside of FD i honestly dont agree with this unless you are willing to time him out

He also has to play extra careful in this matchup because one grab could mean 27%. I'd advise to GR DACUS every grab that you get.....you wont get many opportunities.

how much damage does GR dash attack do instead?

i know i have limited exp in this mu compared so ill just throw in tidbits from mks side

dont go for ftilt unless you are sure its going to hit, good mks that zone are rarely going to get hit by this move

shieks dash speed is fast enough that a well timed ps->grab or a dash attack can interrupt mks zoning.

dont shield camp to much, because getting grabbed by good mks is AWFUL for you. it not only gives you 12% from dthrow bt you get likely sent off stage or juggle trapped. having smart reactions and predicting the dash grab is necessary

most important for me imo

Save your needles for when mk jumps

from mks view your ground game is pretty **** homo, so even though we cant just dair camp you, we want to jump if we feel like we can potentially get grabbed. you can literally **** mks airdodge landing w/ needles if you just save them, since mk has to land its guaranteed.

on stages with platforms just wait and follow him, learning to beat mks air options on reaction is extremely important. powershield nado on reaction if hes dumb enough to do the option, and keep him in the air

 

[riocosta123]

DA is 7% I believe, pummels are 3% (but slow)

Also, Sheik can punish MK's downsmash better than just about anyone in the game due to her speed and ridiculous range. If you have good enough reaction time you can get a dash grab every single time it hits your shield. If you're not confident with that, just go for a da.

 

[Judo777]

Judo, I'm gonna have to disagree man.

We can definitely beat MK as long as the match stays on the stage. However, I do agree that offstage is terribad with him.

Our biggest problem isn't getting gimped but it's actually getting back on the stage from the ledge and resetting your field position. That honestly makes me believe the match has to be 6-4 MK. It's honestly the most miserable part of the MU. I can't even describe how frustrating that part of the MU is.

GAAAAAAAAAH.............

Hah.......i just contradicted myself and agreed with ya on the ratio. DERP.

No i agree with you on the concepts of the match completely. We can totally win if we stay on the ground. The issue is that once we get like past 60% we go into the air and into a stupid juggle state after almost every hit. And we are in a huge disadvantageous situation when that happens. If we can stay on the stage we can compete and go toe to toe with MK.

What im saying is that if our ground game is about as good as MK's (not quite) but when the difference is everytime we get MK "off balance" or gain some momentum on him he very easily gets it back. The converse however is not true. When we get knocked "off balance" or rather knocked into the air in a bad spot, we take a crap ton of damage and sometimes die.

IF we can stay on the ground we can totally beat him. 65/35 isn't unwinnable by any stretch of the imagination. But im simply staying that MK's ability to combat us in almost every situation vs our ability to only reasonably fight him in controlled situations (on the ground at proper ranges or proper spacing in the air) seems a little more heavily in his favor than an even MU.

Im saying 6/4 AT BEST. But closer to 65/35 IMO i guess is we use slight adv, adv, or large advantage i would just say advantage.

 

[<π]

was playing seibrik for a few hours a week ago? I almost want to say on stage we **** him (MK) if you space correctly. you can punish pretty much everything MK does and with big damage too. spot dodge the last hit of tornado. Duck so it forces MK to go low when he does use it.

Most of my deaths came from me trying to out smart him on the recovery and failing. I feel like if I had more time I'd do better at it. spare dair most of MK's attack hit you really high so you have tons of options to exploit when recovering. Seibrik is just really good at scaring you into bad situations.

I think it's pretty even. watch it off stage though. learn you chain ranges. I'm still grey on mine or it's random or something, and that cost me a few stocks. I hate it when I'm like "Yes I'm in tether range!" and it just comes out and I die.

 

[Renki]

I'm by no means an expert on the MK matchup, and I'm still learning the little quirks of it, but I'll thrown in my two cents:

On stage, Sheiks goes almost even with MK. No, I don't think she beats him, but in no way is she completely overwhelmed by him either. MK can condition responses from you with his tilts, so be aware of how you're responding to what he's doing constantly. Be sure to dash shield a bit to mess with his spacing and positioning. If you're not aware of both character's positions in regards to spacing, you can get eaten up alive.

You can f-tilt lock MK a fair amount, but don't expect it to actually happen in a match as Orion has said. Also, as he has said, save your needles for his landing and be smart with them. You need all the percent you can get in this match.

As most are aware, we have a grab release dacus on MK. Now, I'm somewhat torn on what to do when you actually 'do' get a grab on MK. When he's 90-95%, I'd honestly say go for the dacus if the stage's ceiling isn't ridiculously high. However, any lower than that, and I'd personally just save the Dacus. That's just me though. You can needle storm or dash attack in the place of dacus though if you're uncomfortable with your ability to do it. You'll more than likely kill MK a lot later without the dacus though.

The horror of this matchup, as most have said, is when you get thrown or knocked offstage. If you don't mix-up your recovery (or if you guess wrong), that's usually it. MK has no problems at all having his way with us offstage. Even if we make it back, we usually get punished for doing so. It really is a hassle just getting back to a neutral position.


Be aware of your stage position at all times, throw a few jabs here and there to see what happens, save your needles. Kill...when you can. A missed opportunity can ruin the entire match for you.

60-40 MK imo.

 

[saviorslegacy]

DA is 7% I believe, pummels are 3% (but slow)

Also, Sheik can punish MK's downsmash better than just about anyone in the game due to her speed and ridiculous range. If you have good enough reaction time you can get a dash grab every single time it hits your shield. If you're not confident with that, just go for a da.

Yes, DA is awesome.
Also, if you practice with a CPU enough you can develop a good reaction time. I get about a 1/3 of my damage on the foe through perfect shield/shield> grab.

Also, the first post was edited with seriousness.
and lol@ thesunrosered

 

[thexsunrosered]

Don't forget about pictochat guys. Its basically all ground and no off stage. Also, since whenever you go below the stage you enter the lens, its really hard for anyone, not only MK to find you and gimp you. The ceiling is a little higher, but as long as we save the upsmash until a little later its a really good stage. Also if I'm not mistaken I believe you can crawl dash on the right side.

 

[-Mars-]

Great input guys. Good to see the boards alive.

Great input man but i dont think ur numbers match ur discussion. We go almost even with MK on stage. But with MK over half of the game is played offstage. I'm partly saying this because i think MK is THE most under rated character in the game but i dont think we go even close to that even with him. Nor do i think anyone else does that well.

Also i included recovering with getting back to the ground in juggle states cause thats a huge part 2 and thats why i say half of the match.

Sheik has all the best gimmicks in the world on MK. But MK's staple game is just waaaaaaayyyyyy too good compared to ours IMO. I think 6/4 at the best tbh.

Although again i actually believe that people like snake and diddy are 6/4 against MK and that we are closer to 65/35. I think Falco might be the only character that i truly believe can go 55/45 (MKs adv) with MK Provided MK doesnt plank. BUt its still MK's advantage IMO.

Meh. I'm not too awe stricken with MK tbh. Very slow in the air and he's extremely light. Yes, he is the best character in the game and his pressure game is insane, but he does have weaknesses. I think there are several characters that go even with MK on nuetral stages.

65-35 is a soft counter....I dont think MK is a soft counter to Sheik. More than likely he does have a 6-4 advantage the more I think about it though.

This is one of the few matchups that I'm all for Zelda transformation because of MK's poor air speed. Honestly, if I have a % lead with Zelda I am not doing a god **** thing until he approaches except for maybe crouching under dair camping.

Also, the MLG stage list makes this matchup even dumber.

60:40

I would highly recommend NOT switching to Zelda at all, even with a lead. There is literally nothing she can do to land a kill move safely on MK.

outside of FD i honestly dont agree with this unless you are willing to time him out

With a percentage lead i'm fairly confident that needles are enough to make MK approach.

As most are aware, we have a grab release dacus on MK. Now, I'm somewhat torn on what to do when you actually 'do' get a grab on MK. When he's 90-95%, I'd honestly say go for the dacus if the stage's ceiling isn't ridiculously high. However, any lower than that, and I'd personally just save the Dacus. That's just me though. You can needle storm or dash attack in the place of dacus though if you're uncomfortable with your ability to do it. You'll more than likely kill MK a lot later without the dacus though.

I'd say go for it at any percent. It's hard to get grabs on MK anyways and I highly doubt you will land a grab at the perfect percentage for Usmash to kill anyways.

It's a free 27%.

 

[Orion*]

With a percentage lead i'm fairly confident that needles are enough to make MK approach.

you would literally have to play with the mindset to time the metaknight out, and something tells me it wouldnt happen xD

 

[Judo777]

I think whether u land GR DACUS or not before kill percents depends on how the MK is playing. Sheik is a fast character and not getting grabbed is harder than people think. IC's find ways of getting grab and we are way better at it. If ur not getting very many then go for it but i tend to get quite a good number or grabs.

Also MK's only real weakness is his airspeed. He's not really light cause his DI ability is the best in the game. 9 frame aerial is retardedly good for DI. MK's airspeed is slow....too bad ours is too.

And i honestly don't think MK isn't as good as i say he is. MK is freaking incredible and IMO a whole lot better than everyone. Snake boards are starting to think its actually 6/4 MK. Diddy boards have mentioned the same thing. Falco maybe except MK can plank. LIke MK beats everyone worse than ppl think IMO.

 

[phi1ny3]

I'm kinda in the boat that says don't switch to Zelda, imo getting a grab with sheik -> kill move is far easier than landing a kill move w/ Zelda against a GOOD MK rofl. I find that I tend to switch to Zelda only on bad MKs or ones that are clueless at the MU. I feel that with the capability to land a guaranteed kill move (that the setup can be achieved very easily due to Sheik's mixup game rofl), why sacrifice your safety? This is also coming from someone that supports using Zelda as an alternative in certain spots of trouble.

 

[Orion*]

I'm kinda in the boat that says don't switch to Zelda, imo getting a grab with sheik -> kill move is far easier than landing a kill move w/ Zelda against a GOOD MK rofl. I find that I tend to switch to Zelda only on bad MKs or ones that are clueless at the MU. I feel that with the capability to land a guaranteed kill move (that the setup can be achieved very easily due to Sheik's mixup game rofl), why sacrifice your safety? This is also coming from someone that is a big advocate in using Zelda as an alternative in certain spots of trouble.

then youre one of the smart ones :D

 

[-Mars-]

I think whether u land GR DACUS or not before kill percents depends on how the MK is playing. Sheik is a fast character and not getting grabbed is harder than people think. IC's find ways of getting grab and we are way better at it. If ur not getting very many then go for it but i tend to get quite a good number or grabs.

Also MK's only real weakness is his airspeed. He's not really light cause his DI ability is the best in the game. 9 frame aerial is retardedly good for DI. MK's airspeed is slow....too bad ours is too.

And i honestly don't think MK isn't as good as i say he is. MK is freaking incredible and IMO a whole lot better than everyone. Snake boards are starting to think its actually 6/4 MK. Diddy boards have mentioned the same thing. Falco maybe except MK can plank. LIke MK beats everyone worse than ppl think IMO.

What I meant by that was more along the lines of I doubt your usmash will be decayed to the point where it wont KO at normal KO percentages.

MK still dies very early to vertical KO moves. He does survive horizontally forever though.

Meh to each his own. MK's don't win every tournament and they never will. M2K used to say that the best character in the game is a ultra defensive, smart Olimar.

 

[Judo777]

What I meant by that was more along the lines of I doubt your usmash will be decayed to the point where it wont KO at normal KO percentages.

MK still dies very early to vertical KO moves. He does survive horizontally forever though.

Meh to each his own. MK's don't win every tournament and they never will. M2K used to say that the best character in the game is a ultra defensive, smart Olimar.

Yea i get what ur saying. We can beat MK's and no they wont always win i just hate how good that bat is.

Also M2K is IMO the best player in the world. However I have learned that M2K doesn't know alot when it comes to things that aren't MK. Olimar is FAR from the best lol.

Um i might post something tomorrow on what we can do vs MK.

 

[-Cross-]

Dunno if people know this specifically but I'll put it in here, since I don't really have much to contribute. Both types of Dacus are landable on MK from GR. What I mean is you can get either the two hit version or the one hit version regardless of %'s except at early %'s where it will always be the two hit version. After GR, if you do Dacus asap then you will only get the vertical knockback and 17% (?), but if you delay slightly and do Dacus MK still won't be able to escape and you get the horizontal knockback and 29% iirc. Just saying that this could be a DI'ing mindgame, as most people will probably expect to be knocked up, so they DI horizontally and down.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Sigh, I think m2k is gonna be at my house again 2moro.

I will try and get him to play with me. I'll do everything I can but the last time this happened, there was a small beat down on PS1. I feel like if i am perfect in my execution though, I can definitely give myself a shot.

Stupid Perfection...........

Also, PS1 is really bad for us. Our best cp aside from FD is CS imo. IF and only if MK decides to fight you on the bottom level, we can ruin him fast with a grab. Now if he aircamps like he should, decay your Ftilt ASAP! We can then tilt lock him with far less worry of them breaking out. This however isn't saying that he can't because he probably can since he's MKl I need to test it.

Strange thought for a cp but I'm thinking outside the box.......PTAD? If it's legal? Thoughts?

Anyway, Our best chances are to win game 1 and head back to a neutral on game 3. Though it's possible we can win on any stage, it is less likely due to the fact that it is MK. Simply put.

For now I will say we are 60-40 yet again but all depending n what the MK tries to do. We have the tools to do something against all his plans but it's still a matter of no mistakes for us.

 

[clowsui]

LOL @ PTAD, you bounce on the track MK gets hits for free (smirk)

 

[Judo777]

Sigh, I think m2k is gonna be at my house again 2moro.

I will try and get him to play with me. I'll do everything I can but the last time this happened, there was a small beat down on PS1. I feel like if i am perfect in my execution though, I can definitely give myself a shot.

Stupid Perfection...........

Also, PS1 is really bad for us. Our best cp aside from FD is CS imo. IF and only if MK decides to fight you on the bottom level, we can ruin him fast with a grab. Now if he aircamps like he should, decay your Ftilt ASAP! We can then tilt lock him with far less worry of them breaking out. This however isn't saying that he can't because he probably can since he's MKl I need to test it.

Strange thought for a cp but I'm thinking outside the box.......PTAD? If it's legal? Thoughts?

Anyway, Our best chances are to win game 1 and head back to a neutral on game 3. Though it's possible we can win on any stage, it is less likely due to the fact that it is MK. Simply put.

For now I will say we are 60-40 yet again but all depending n what the MK tries to do. We have the tools to do something against all his plans but it's still a matter of no mistakes for us.

not just for the walk off second phase gives us a safe place to stand and do any thing we want whether its decay our ftilt or throw uairs through the floor. Seriously phase 2 of CS is so strong for us in this MU. He has to just stay above us and watch of for uairs the whole time. Phase 3 is FD and phase 1 i just chain camp him the whole time.

I also like picto on MK.

 

[<π]

port town aero dive, I think, would be one of sheik's worst stages. once you are off stage you are getting TONS of damage. Zelda has it even worse on that stage I'd imagine. No one will play this stage with me though.....

+ high ceilings? yeah :/

Good jiggs stage though

 

[-Mars-]

Call me crazy but I love Halberd against MK, you just have to be conscious of the sharking. Low ceiling plus tons of room to manuever. Only problem is usually when I cp Halberd, the MK switches to Snake and I die at like 80 lol.

 

[Judo777]

Call me crazy but I love Halberd against MK, you just have to be conscious of the sharking. Low ceiling plus tons of room to manuever. Only problem is usually when I cp Halberd, the MK switches to Snake and I die at like 80 lol.

Yea i used to cp it but then yea snake started happening. Dont get me wrong snake isnt like ALOT better than us on this stage but it really is a cp waste.

 

[choknater]

ahhhh <3 i wish i had your experience

this matchup is so scary/difficult, and i only have wifi experience. with sheik's and mk's godlike frame data, that kind of exp is only good for general spacing but not close combat stuff......................

i wanna play with zex

 

[-Cross-]

Yea i used to cp it but then yea snake started happening. Dont get me wrong snake isnt like ALOT better than us on this stage but it really is a cp waste.

Pull out that pocket D3

Just a couple of questions about this MU. How good are aerial needles against an MK trying to recover? Are there potential frame traps with the needles if we force the MK to air dodge? On paper at least, the needles look like some nice free %.

Also what are Sheik's mixups from getting back onto the stage from the ledge? Against a dtilting MK there doesn't seem to be much Sheik can do. Her horizontal movement is not good enough to hit a grounded MK and ledge hopping needles seem like a pretty bad idea. Halberd seems nice because there are more attacking options for Sheik since she can attack through the stage against a ledge guarding MK. Thoughts?

 

[<π]

trying to stop Seibrik with needles is the main way I died off stage. He'd fast fall under then or jump over them 70% of the time and I'd be caught still in the animation and get Daired really far out.

You CAN get sudo combos out of full aerial (and grounded) needles but I'd suggest just going for damage of something MK is really risky to edge guard because of how long he can just wait you out.

getting back to the edge... yeah stages you can pass through are nice it give you more attack range almost; since there is no physical barrier nothing but your horizontal movement speed is really limiting you.

But ingeneral invincibility refresh from the chain is amazing for sheik getting on stage. getting on stage with ledge dropped vanish is a neat mix up. sheiks get up roll and get up attacks are all very quick as far as cool down goes so you can also mix up with that. when I was playing M2K he was way for ledge drop to airdodge on stage.

I also like sheik's jump on. if you take advantage of invincibility frames its another good mix up for her espeacially if people are spacing further away from you.

Oh, and the good old fation jump on stage. just jump right on the tip of the stage at the peak of your second jump after the ledge drop from there you can sheild jab dsmash is actually fine in these situations because if they sheild you'll just slide off and regrab.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

James, your are gonna have to literally show me this stuff because I got beat up offstage by M2K yesterday. On stage, it was good but not off, he got better at gimping > : (

 

[-Cross-]

trying to stop Seibrik with needles is the main way I died off stage. He'd fast fall under then or jump over them 70% of the time and I'd be caught still in the animation and get Daired really far out.

Eh, are you talking about when you were trying to recover? Usually if you use aerial needles when edge guarding MK wouldn't dair just hit you back towards the stage?

when I was playing M2K he was way for ledge drop to airdodge on stage.

Do you mean he was always guarding that option or you were able to use that option against him?

I also like sheik's jump on.

Clarify?

Oh, and the good old fation jump on stage. just jump right on the tip of the stage at the peak of your second jump after the ledge drop from there you can sheild jab dsmash is actually fine in these situations because if they sheild you'll just slide off and regrab.

Does it work that well? Sheik has just a bit of hang time at the peak of her second jump but just enough to make it more vulnerable than like an Ike that does this, but that's mainly because she is curled up in a tight ball. I guess I just need to space the double jump perfectly, thanks for the tips, can you just clarify the ones I asked about?

 

[riocosta123]

I like using dair occasionally, especially if the angle is going to get me on top/behind someone. Sure, I'm probably going to get hit, but at least I'm getting hit towards the stage instead of away from it now. Most likely you're going to get hit with an upair or nair so just prepare your di/sdi horizontally for that.

I've also started vanshing straight vertically down for the same reason/situation although the nice thing about vanish is that the wind can push you far enough from the guy. Taking a few hits is much better than getting gimped or landing on the ledge at ****ty percent.

If I'm on the ledge I usually use the ledgejump and airdodge as quickly as possible. Rarely, I try to vanish to the stage at the super low-lag angle (I need to work on this).

Again, I don't use any of these things a lot, and ideally I try not to get hit, but if you get enough tricks you can mix them up to save yourself a gimp or two over the course of a set.

 

[<π]

Eh, are you talking about when you were trying to recover? Usually if you use aerial needles when edge guarding MK wouldn't dair just hit you back towards the stage?

Depends on how high you are and how you are DIing...
But yeah, as an edge guard tool it is pretty safe even against MK despite how hard it can be to connect with him because of his ability to stall and wait out or positioning..

Do you mean he was always guarding that option or you were able to use that option against him?

I never really did. I'm a big fan of stand on ->jab or roll on->roll. its was habitual.M2K suggested just ledge drop jump on with an air dodge...

Clarify?

when you are on the edge and you press jump. it give her really good height and depending on the stage you have platforms as options your second jump and worst case vanish as stalls and resets. if you are uncomfortable you can just return to the ledge.

Does it work that well? Sheik has just a bit of hang time at the peak of her second jump but just enough to make it more vulnerable than like an Ike that does this, but that's mainly because she is curled up in a tight ball. I guess I just need to space the double jump perfectly, thanks for the tips, can you just clarify the ones I asked about?

It works pretty well for me. I jump on Jab sometimes (normally at low percents) you want to sneak just up on the ledge at the very tip of that second jump. I ledge drop regrab a few times normally before hand as well to get the pattern in peoples head before I jump on stage. sheiks jab is normally fast enough to beat out peoples reaction espeacially when they don't expect it.

And since sheik has tools like needles invincible fairs and stuff more often than not your opponent won't be close enough to punish you for a well spaced double jump land on the edge thingy.



@Ed
Dang... I'll show you some stuff. its really all rock paper siccors against most of the cast :/ but yeah getting on stage is fun!

 

[-Cross-]

Thanks for the tips. On the ground, what tools does Sheik use most often to break MK's zoning aside from dash attack? Is it crucial for her to have full needles or near full before she engages MK? I like to run away and charge needles until i have 4-5 charges before I fight MK head on. I just use standard run away tactics and mixups while doing so but is it just an unnecessary risk I am taking? Also what type of moves/reactions should Sheik try to bait against MK?

 

[<π]

dash in sheild isn't possible against a short hopping MK.

but yeah needles are really good and staying just out of their fair zone when they are in the air is a good idea. If you are uncomfortable reset the zone.

 

[-Cross-]

What type of zone do I maintain against a grounded MK? Outside ftilt/dtilt range or outside of dash attack/grab range?

 

[<π]

ftilt Dtilt. dash attack and dash grab are really risky for MK to just throw out but dtilt is his main grounded spacing tool. (ftilt is really unsafe for MK on sheild and on whiff)

EDIT:
from that range you have access to your SH pokes approaches; spaced fair being the biggest one. walk forward ftilt is an option and of course dash attack. If you get to play MKs a lot you can also try the chain as a poking tool too since it vastly out ranges any of MK's grounded options.

when you find yourself too close shield drop jab is a good option against spaced Dtilts when grab won't reach. never roll out from sheild pressure against MK, jumping is normally the better option for you. good MKs will follow up to all your rolls and spot dodges on reaction with a dsmash or dash grab/attack.

 

[choknater]

man <3 your tips are amazing, thanks