Metamorphosis: The Universal Yoshi Matchup Discussion Thread

[Delta-cod]

Lol, it's really easy. XD

You can camp Ness. He has to approach. You can pivot grab his aerials for a GR > Usmash. If he's trying to dance in the air you can just throw an egg at him. Ness has a weak grab game so he can't really approach from the ground. It's kind of like the Peach:Yoshi MU. While Ness can shut down our aerial options, the ones we have just **** him.

We can KO him easier than he can KO us. All we have to do is grab him at about 110% and Uair him on release. We rack damage easier and can avoid him more easily. At about 50%, Usmash knocks him high enough into the air that you can read his landing with another grab/Usmash. Note that an Usmash at ~0-15% will let him Nair you since it doesn't knock him far enough away.

It's possible to gimp Ness, though it's much harder than people think. As long as the Ness isn't stupid and drop to the same angle to PKT everytime, it's very possible for him to recover. His DJ is good and he can use a Fair to shield himself and then recover. However, he has a very difficult time returning from the ledge since he can't really approach us anyways.

He can't really gimp us. Sure, he can use PKT to bother us, but you can either take the hit to send you higher, or dodge through it. If you choose to dodge he can loop it around to eat your momentum, so make sure you choose appropriately. His Dair knocks us out of armor at 0%, so just don't get hit by it.

For stages, we can do our GR on nearly any stage. You can still do the GR on BF, Lylat, and YI depending on the platform angle. Smashville platform lets him shield it, I believe. Ness does well on Brinstar and RC, so I recommend banning Brinstar since Yoshi's terrible at that stage and attempting to outgay Ness on RC. Try to stay ahead of him and camp, don't try to fight an aerial battle with him, he will beat you. We have a lot of good neutrals to choose from for striking and for counterpicking. I usually use BF since it reduces his approach options and it doesn't screw with this GR. For CPs, you can use BF, FD, Lylat, SV. The majority of the neutrals are good to use vs. Ness.

 

[.Marik]

Sounds good. I need a couple more people, because last time I checked, Ness was a really gimmicky and tricky character to deal with.

Not that I don't believe you, I just want to be on the safe side.

 

[Delta-cod]

Our gimmick >>>>>> Ness's gimmicks.

 

[.Marik]

Well... some people might say otherwise.

 

[Deleted member]

FOW would 3 stock you with ease delta.

 

[Delta-cod]

No.

10chars.

 

[Deleted member]

He 2 stocked susa i think hed 3 stock you
lol

Ness is a much better character than yoshi so he wins, he shouldnt get grabbed much, if at all

 

[Delta-cod]

I'm gonna pull out the holy trinity of reasons why FOW beat Susa.

1) Susa didn't know the MU.
2) Susa wasn't playing well.
3) FOW is just a better player than Susa.

Just because FOW could beat my because he's potentially a much better player than me, doesn't make the MU in Ness's advantage. Every Ness I've played on my level I've *****. 2 stocks and 3 stocks galore. There's nothing Ness can do about it. He has to get into Yoshi's grab range to do something.

 

[~Firefly~]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Dair doesn't break our DJ armour at 0%. I've been hit with Ness' Dair at 0% offstage during the last stock of the last match of the second set of Grand Finals in a low tier tourney a while back, and I just kept going. Because of the circumstances, I remember it WAY too clearly to have imagined it. My opponent, who happens to be a smash researcher, raged because he knew that if I had even 1%, it would have broken through and I would've lost. XD

...I don't think it REALLY matters, but I thought I'd clear that up. >.<

 

[Silent Beast]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Dair doesn't break our DJ armour at 0%. I've been hit with Ness' Dair at 0% offstage during the last stock of the last match of the second set of Grand Finals in a low tier tourney a while back, and I just kept going. Because of the circumstances, I remember it WAY too clearly to have imagined it. My opponent, who happens to be a smash researcher, raged because he knew that if I had even 1%, it would have broken through and I would've lost. XD

...I don't think it REALLY matters, but I thought I'd clear that up. >.<

Are you sure it wasn't the sourspot?

 

[~Firefly~]

Are you sure it wasn't the sourspot?

Hmm...I don't THINK it was...I never considered that though. DX

So I guess, don't get ht by Ness' sweetspotted Dair? lol

 

[Deleted member]

I'm gonna pull out the holy trinity of reasons why FOW beat Susa.

1) Susa didn't know the MU.
2) Susa wasn't playing well.
3) FOW is just a better player than Susa.

Just because FOW could beat my because he's potentially a much better player than me, doesn't make the MU in Ness's advantage. Every Ness I've played on my level I've *****. 2 stocks and 3 stocks galore. There's nothing Ness can do about it. He has to get into Yoshi's grab range to do something.

Same with me and wario, doesnt mean that yoshi ***** wario.

Yoshi's grab isnt even that good, if ganon can avoid getting grabbed, ness can too.
I wont argue the matchup i dont want to argue with this old mentality that yoshi can beat a character with grabs.

 

[Delta-cod]

Same with me and wario, doesnt mean that yoshi ***** wario.

Yoshi's grab isnt even that good, if ganon can avoid getting grabbed, ness can too.
I wont argue the matchup i dont want to argue with this old mentality that yoshi can beat a character with grabs.

I'd be willing to listen if you provided evidence, instead of just saying Ness beats Yoshi. >_>

 

[Deleted member]

Ok fine, i could be wrong but the reasons you gave are not correct i think.

Ness has good aerial mobility, and his quick double jump rising forward air is a good pressure and is difficult to punish. His forward air in general is very hard for yoshi to punish, and if you are just pivot grabbing on reaction to his short hop in hopes to catch him, he can fast fall and punish, since you cant punish a forward air on reaction.

Neutral air out of shield ***** pretty much everything. Ness kills much more easily, his grab is easier to land because you are forced to stay on the ground in many cases due to that nasty forward aerial, while yoshi can mostly grab on landing, which certainly happens, but idk, ness is pretty good at not getting grabbed on landing.
Down air beats us soooo bad, it spikes at all percents out of double jump (and the sweet spot is huge), and his double jump can follow us up on ours, and makes it tricky to avoid (not that you should be hit by it, but its a very dangerous move and it is very realistic to land it). Side b can punish us for 40+ percents depending on how they read ur DI/if you have your double jump.

I dunno thats just what i think.
But saying we win because he has to go in pivot grab range is utterly ridiculous.

 

[bigman40]

Bah...All this discussion.....Everyone is quitting Yoshi anyways....Might as well just leave the boards as is. It's pretty pointless when there's only like a single digit amount of Yoshis....


~Mieu

 

[Delta-cod]

It was a sort of generalization, though the grab is what makes this in our favor.

Ness has to approach. He can't approach on the ground, so he's usually gonna use some Fairs to approach. Unless he retreats a Fair, then our pivot grab will get him. A falling Fair has little range, because it doesn't have much of a hitbox below Ness. A rising Fair can be punished as he's landing, or the field is reset, which is no problem. His Dair is very threatening when recovering, don't get hit by it. However, Ness is pretty bad at returning to the ground from above in my experience. While Dair has a lot of priority, it's got a lot of start up and can be dodged. His AD isn't too great either, allowing us to punish him in the air or grab him.

PKF is very situational and DIable, it's not incredibly useful except maybe for Ground Spacing. If the Ness is using PKF a lot, you can Dash Grab and the hop will carry you over it. If he's charging Fsmash, don't go for a grab, it will miss like it does Lucas.

Basically, once you get some momentum going, it's very easy to continue the grab chain. I'm not saying all you do is grab, I don't even completely camp this MU, but it's very effective. If you do go after him, make sure you don't chase him in the air from the front, otherwise you'll eat Fair.

 

[Bwett]

Summary of Ness vs Yoshi

Excellent job, you have it dead on.

 

[hadesblade]

I'd bet money FOW couldn't 3 stock delta.

And big, being like that is what will make the few yoshi's left quit. I personally need these threads. I'm not a top player. If I can't read these threads and use them to help me get better, then I will move on to a character that I can find threads to improve from. If you were to ask me why I quit yoshi, it would be due to lack of a strong character board to help me improve. If you aren't going to help us anymore, then fine. Don't discourage others from doing it.

 

[indigestible_wad]

^This.

tenchar

 

[Sharky]

60:40 seems right. Need more insight on what Yoshi can do, though. QAC'ing is really fast, ChainGrabs, stuff like that.

pika can't cg yoshi if you meant it that way.

Against campy pikachu's, spotdodge the thunderjolt or just hang out on platforms and throw eggs til he approaches. That's when it gets tricky if the pika knows what he's doing.

 

[.Marik]

And big, being like that is what will make the few yoshi's left quit. I personally need these threads. I'm not a top player. If I can't read these threads and use them to help me get better, then I will move on to a character that I can find threads to improve from. If you were to ask me why I quit yoshi, it would be due to lack of a strong character board to help me improve. If you aren't going to help us anymore, then fine. Don't discourage others from doing it.

I love you.

pika can't cg yoshi if you meant it that way.

Against campy pikachu's, spotdodge the thunderjolt or just hang out on platforms and throw eggs til he approaches. That's when it gets tricky if the pika knows what he's doing.

Yeah, don't worry I get what you mean. I never meant ChainGrabs on Pikachu's part, just in general. I was listing out a analytical point of discussion.

I'll update Ness vs. Yoshi now.

 

[bigman40]

And big, being like that is what will make the few yoshi's left quit. I personally need these threads. I'm not a top player. If I can't read these threads and use them to help me get better, then I will move on to a character that I can find threads to improve from. If you were to ask me why I quit yoshi, it would be due to lack of a strong character board to help me improve. If you aren't going to help us anymore, then fine. Don't discourage others from doing it.

Fine w/e. Although, I doubt other people quit cause of weak character boards.


Anyways, on topic, Pika can CG Yoshi till about 15-20%, but his followups (Utilt/Usmash) and his Fthrow CG can be Naired out of. QAC doesn't play that big of a factor imo, but it can get annoying if you panic when one is using it. Not only that, but it can take out your DJ if you attempt to edgeguard (if you attack just before QAC) and would screw you up. Best chances are to egg him until he's about to QAC to recover. When this happens, you can either force him to land onstage, or just continue to egg him. If Pika lands on the stage, then you can expect to see a DJ'ed Tjolt coming at you as their defense unless they feel like getting pretty and QACing.

As for onstage play, Tjolts and QACing are the main defensive maneuvers since Yoshi doesn't have disjointed range like Marth, Ike, or Snake (and cause he doesn't have OoS options). If Pika is below us, it can be very frustrating since Pika excels at pressuring (and the fact that Uair has some good range). Dsmash is normally a panic move when people are too close to Pika (not only that, but it's still a decent punishing move). If you get caught in it, then DI up and to the side to get out. If you happened to shield the move, then just wait till it's over and you can shield grab him.

Pika has some trouble killing, but pay attention to when you get thrown up into the air. Expect a thunder to come, and learn to DI Utilt really quick cause it normally leads into thunder (a legit combo). Other than that, just pay attention and you shouldn't get killed till high percents (his other killing moves are Nair, Usmash OoS, Fsmash, & Ftilt). Oh yeah, and if they know the locks, you REALLY want to pay attention to what they plan to do. All it takes is a footstool for the setup to begin, and when it's done right, it'll normally lead to a stock if they can get you up to about 50-70% near the end of the stage.

There. Happy?


~Mieu

 

[.Marik]

Ness is updated.

Looks like Pikachu is next, and I'm pretty much clueless about this matchup, in spite of ****** 5ive all the time.

I really want Green Ace to give his opinion on matchups, as well as The Egg Sniper and Scarlet Jile. Can anyone contact them?

 

[indigestible_wad]

I find that keeping at mid-range is helpful, because pikachu's arsenal doesn't reach very far, and yoshi's tail can outrange most of it. If you get too close pikachu just gives you fair or bair. I like to play this match defensive and campy. Eggs>jolts in terms of trajectory. Jabbing the jolts works, and all that pikachu can do is powershield eggs, which forces him to come closer to do something. Play the match baiting and keeping away. That's may take on it, but I don't play all that many pikachus.

 

[Airborne]

things that I'll say about the pika MU:

the majority of them have this mindset that they need to start the match off by doing a FH thunderjolt....
SO EASY to get pass.... if they catch on to you taking advantage of it, like how i took a stock off of Calic on Halberd because of this predictable flaw and a lovely Grab Release Chain Grab, they may just start the match charging at you from the ground.

also pika is not one to **** with in the air.... it's also sometimes difficult to punish him as he's landing, due to his fair having more horizontal range than you think, and his dair having horizontal hitboxes, similar to our downb stars. usmash can be taken advantage of in this MU because i believe it can beat out dair; if not, then you can still time it to hit him before his dair even comes out.

i'd say to try to avoid the air, as if you're facing MK, Marth(a), Kirby, Wolf, etc. this being said, try to avoid CPing aerial-based stages. Another big problem about being in the air against him is if you're above him. Uair, Usmash, Dsmash, Nair, and Utilt wreck our **** sooo hard, since some of them lead into thunder. I don't believe they actually start thundering when you're above them until you're at about 50-70% or so.

his tilts outrange our tilts, though i'm not sure about them outranging our egg lay/grabs.

In terms of killing, I think Scatz provided the best summary for that, so look at his post.

Not sure how accurate some of my things are, since I haven't gotten to play Anther yet, let alone discuss it with him, let alone even talk to him yet. =X Michigan is kinda 6 hours away...

 

[Sharky]

once again I missed fighting pikapika! outside of doubles yesterday ~_~ sorry. I only fought Bry, who's ok, but I feel he doesn't fully encompass the MU. I only lost to him because I was stupid at the end of the second/third games.

 

[Deleted member]

Btw, bwett said he agreed with my analysis so idk why u wrote that bwett said advantage vs ness.

 

[Shiri]

I made a post about Pikachu in the other matchup thread and in the single matchup thread.

It's mostly right, but then again, I usually am.

 

[Silent Beast]

Pika has some trouble killing, but pay attention to when you get thrown up into the air. Expect a thunder to come, and learn to DI Utilt really quick cause it normally leads into thunder (a legit combo). Other than that, just pay attention and you shouldn't get killed till high percents (his other killing moves are Nair, Usmash OoS, Fsmash, & Ftilt).

Yeah, I thought I'd just throw in that Kaylo killed me at least a couple times Sunday when I reflexively uaired to momentum cancel after an utilt at >100%, and got thundered while still in lag. I also noticed she got PRiDE with it too when he buffered an airdodge after utilt. So yeah, pay attention after utilt at kill percents and wait for thunder before you do anything.

In a related matter, at what point will Pikachu's utilt kill?

 

[hadesblade]

Btw, bwett said he agreed with my analysis so idk why u wrote that bwett said advantage vs ness.

Bwett giving his input should not end the discussion.

And I hate uairing to momentum cancel only to get killed by a thunder. I have the same problem with sonic springing under me and uairing. Bad habbits are bad. =/

 

[.Marik]

Btw, bwett said he agreed with my analysis so idk why u wrote that bwett said advantage vs ness.

Because he wrote "advantage" in his summarized list. I asked you guys to post them for a reason.

stuff

Can you post a list as well? You're a very knowledgable person and I'd find your insight really helpful.

 

[Deleted member]

Bwett giving his input should not end the discussion.

And I hate uairing to momentum cancel only to get killed by a thunder. I have the same problem with sonic springing under me and uairing. Bad habbits are bad. =/

I never said that lol

Just nair if ur hit up wards because uair is like DIing up, thats why MKs down air when hit vertically even if uair is faster.

 

[Bwett]

If you get utilted, you really shouldn't do anything unless you know you'll die if you don't momentum cancel. If you do realize you're at too high percent, just DI to the side, then uair -> DJ away. You might still get hit by thunder if they read you, but in that situation, you'd have no option lol

 

[Silent Beast]

Can you post a list as well? You're a very knowledgable person and I'd find your insight really helpful.

I really only have MU experience vs. Marth and Zelda, since I really only play 1 person. You can add me to the people that thinks Yoshi loses to Zelda, and no one needs to be told that Yoshi loses to Marth.

I never said that lol

Just nair if ur hit up wards because uair is like DIing up, thats why MKs down air when hit vertically even if uair is faster.

My point was that I got thundered after uairing because of the ending lag, not because of DIing the thunder incorrectly. hades meant the same thing with regard to Sonic's spring/uair. Uair ends the soonest out of all of Yoshi's aerials, so using nair or any other aerial would be even worse in this situation.

 

[bigman40]

Yeah, I thought I'd just throw in that Kaylo killed me at least a couple times Sunday when I reflexively uaired to momentum cancel after an utilt at >100%, and got thundered while still in lag. I also noticed she got PRiDE with it too when he buffered an airdodge after utilt. So yeah, pay attention after utilt at kill percents and wait for thunder before you do anything.

In a related matter, at what point will Pikachu's utilt kill?

I think around 160% will Pika's Utilt kill outright. Really, if you get Uaired and you don't DI it well, you're practically dead since it still hits after airdodges.

I think Yoshi loses to Marth much less than he does to Lucario. I'm much more confident in fighting any Marth and beating them than I am versus Lucario.


~Mieu

 

[Delta-cod]

I do better against Lucario than Marth, personally. I think they both might be equally disadvantaged though, just nowhere near as bad as we think they are nowadays.

No, I don't have evidence. I just feel that way. =/

 

[Airborne]

i haven't been playing as smart as I used to against marth, so I haven't felt comfortable with the MU at all lately. One of my primary sparring partners mains Lucario, so I might be able to provide some more information later on how to fight this son of a *****.

 

[Metatitan]

Cute avi Billy. But not as cute as mine

 

[.Marik]

Cute avi Billy. But not as cute as mine

His is substantially better, to be perfectly honest.

 

[MX778]

I'd say we have the advantege against Ness.
We destroy his ground game almost completely.