Sharky
Smash Master
which is why he stays to the air where he has us beat.
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Metamorphosis: The Universal Yoshi Matchup Discussion Thread
- Thread starter .Marik
- Start date
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Can't stay in the air forever. Besides, most our ground game can beat his air game. Usmash > Dair, eggs > him being too high/far in the air. Pivot grab > approaches.
Sharky
Smash Master
personally I think it's even. Ness can very well avoid the pivot grab with a fast falled fair/other aerials given proper spacing. We win slightly for gimping.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Ness's FAir has pretty poor range below when fastfalled. It's also not as disjointed when used to advance. If we properly space a pivot grab, we WILL grab him out of it unless he's retreated out of the range, which simply causes a reset. If you get backed into a corner, you can run under him if he jumps into the air since his FF speed is a bit lacking, though it is faster than Yoshi's.
D
Deleted member
Guest
We dont destroy his ground game completely...
I dont think you guys understand how ness works.
His ground game is his grab, his side b, and his jab. All of them are very good at what they do.
Like i said delta, fast falling foward air from a double jump beats pivot grab, if you shield he can jab grab, if you run away his pressure is working.
But you cant just go situation by situation, according to you delta, ness shouldnt get 1 damage on us, let alone a stock
I dont think you guys understand how ness works.
His ground game is his grab, his side b, and his jab. All of them are very good at what they do.
Like i said delta, fast falling foward air from a double jump beats pivot grab, if you shield he can jab grab, if you run away his pressure is working.
But you cant just go situation by situation, according to you delta, ness shouldnt get 1 damage on us, let alone a stock
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
I'm telling you, FF Fair from Ness is BAD. It has poor range and if you space right, it WILL be grabbed. The only way it should hit is if he's landing on top of you.
Socks, of course it won't be a flawless victory. Mindgames play a part in the match up, you WILL get hit, and you WILL lose stocks. The MU is not good for Ness, he simply cannot beat out a well spaced pivot grab outside of prediction. =/
Socks, of course it won't be a flawless victory. Mindgames play a part in the match up, you WILL get hit, and you WILL lose stocks. The MU is not good for Ness, he simply cannot beat out a well spaced pivot grab outside of prediction. =/
D
Deleted member
Guest
Neither can marth?
Haha
But marth still wins 70:30
Haha
But marth still wins 70:30
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
What? Marth's Fair is arced and hits decently below him, even when FFd. Ness's Fair sort of gets caught up in his actual body when he FFs it.
Marth's FAir also has more range. >_>
Marth's FAir also has more range. >_>
Poltergust
Smash Master
What? Wasn't it you who said that the Marth match-up was not that bad, Sockz? What made you change your mind? XD
Anyways, I believe the match-up to be even, with maybe Ness having the slight advantage. He does have a much better aerial game, so trying to fight him directly in the air is foolish. His ground game is not terrible, also we probably do beat him there. Ness' recovery is pretty bad, so gimping is certainly possible. Just make sure that you don't eat a PKT2 while doing so, though.
And about his F-air, even if it is easily pivot-grabbed that doesn't mean it is a bad move. It's probably his best move against Yoshi, actually. If FF F-airs won't work, then they would simply stop doing them and use a different approach. It's not like Ness can only FF F-air, you know. It's other uses include edge-guarding and completely shutting down Yoshi's aerial game (no aerial can beat it head on, so if you have Ness facing you in the air then get to the ground quickly). It's a really annoying move, to be honest. =/
Anyways, I believe the match-up to be even, with maybe Ness having the slight advantage. He does have a much better aerial game, so trying to fight him directly in the air is foolish. His ground game is not terrible, also we probably do beat him there. Ness' recovery is pretty bad, so gimping is certainly possible. Just make sure that you don't eat a PKT2 while doing so, though.
And about his F-air, even if it is easily pivot-grabbed that doesn't mean it is a bad move. It's probably his best move against Yoshi, actually. If FF F-airs won't work, then they would simply stop doing them and use a different approach. It's not like Ness can only FF F-air, you know. It's other uses include edge-guarding and completely shutting down Yoshi's aerial game (no aerial can beat it head on, so if you have Ness facing you in the air then get to the ground quickly). It's a really annoying move, to be honest. =/
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Polt, I used to think it was even, but then I just realized it was a lot simpler a match up than I thought. I even wrote up the "even maybe Ness's favor depending on stage" summary for the individual thread.
I'm not saying his Fair is a bad move, just that it's entirely beatable and grabbable if FF'd and not retreated. It does a terrific job of keeping us grounded. Unfortunately for Ness, our ground game is perfectly capable of beating out his air game, and his ground game can't stack up to ours, so he loses.
No, it's not a 70:30 MU. As bad as I am with ratios, I feel it's a solid 60:40, though stage choice tips it closer to even for Ness.
I'm not saying his Fair is a bad move, just that it's entirely beatable and grabbable if FF'd and not retreated. It does a terrific job of keeping us grounded. Unfortunately for Ness, our ground game is perfectly capable of beating out his air game, and his ground game can't stack up to ours, so he loses.
No, it's not a 70:30 MU. As bad as I am with ratios, I feel it's a solid 60:40, though stage choice tips it closer to even for Ness.
Metatitan
Smash Master
Delta you're dumb, ness beats yoshi. You're one of the (no offense) typical theorycrafting yoshies who thinks pivot grabs and eggs are the answer to everything; they aren't. They are both extremely easy to bait and punish and you're also severely underestimating the opponent as well (ness is actually.... good).
Sharky
Smash Master
I wouldn't go as far as calling ness "good" meta lol, better overall than yoshi maybe, but not good =P
Metatitan
Smash Master
Ness is pretty good considering people used to think he was as bad as lucas.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Meta, I've put these theories to practice, and they've worked. Ness mains even say that FF Fair is easily beatable by a shield/grab/attack. >_>
D
Deleted member
Guest
Delta...
He doesnt need to fast fall first of all.
Secondly he shouldnt be doing anything grabbable.
Heres a situation for you:
Yoshi is camping. Ness walks up and powershields till midrange, which is when yoshi decides to not egg cuz its not safe.
Ness runs up and foward airs in place, yoshi pivot grabs (as you suggest) ness lands and PK fires.
Yoshi has to react to PK fire, his best option is to fox trot away or spotdodge, if he spot dodges ness can come in with a neutral air.
Ness has far too potent pressure tools to lose to yoshi, i could elaborate alot but i dunno.
Ima play vice grip some more in a month i think.
Edit:
Who have you put these things into practice with.
He doesnt need to fast fall first of all.
Secondly he shouldnt be doing anything grabbable.
Heres a situation for you:
Yoshi is camping. Ness walks up and powershields till midrange, which is when yoshi decides to not egg cuz its not safe.
Ness runs up and foward airs in place, yoshi pivot grabs (as you suggest) ness lands and PK fires.
Yoshi has to react to PK fire, his best option is to fox trot away or spotdodge, if he spot dodges ness can come in with a neutral air.
Ness has far too potent pressure tools to lose to yoshi, i could elaborate alot but i dunno.
Ima play vice grip some more in a month i think.
Edit:
Who have you put these things into practice with.
Metatitan
Smash Master
Stocky how dare you question the legitimacy of level 9 cpus!
I lol'd.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
You were suggesting that Ness was FFing a Fair to beat a pivot grab, not me.
Secondly, he is grabbable and it will happen.
You can dash grab over PK Fire. The hop in the dash grab animation pulls you over the Bolt, so you can dodge it and get a grab off him. Otherwise, you can jump over the PKF and aerial him, since it travels along the ground. You don't have to retreat or block it. The only way we couldn't punish Ness in this situation if he's at max range for the PKF, in which case he couldn't punish our dodge anyways.
Nobody incredibly notable that you'd care for, though I've played both ends of the MU with Edge on WiFi (lol WiFi). If I see Zucco at my next tourny I'll ask to play him and hopefully get the matches recorded.
Meta, how did you know? D:
Poltergust
Smash Master
PK Fire is not all that dangerous anyways. In the case that you do get hit, just double-jump out of it. You should never take more than 3% from any PK Fire attack.
BUT WHAT ABOUT WHEN IT HITS YOU FROM ABOVE?!TAKE THAT
Also,
I respect Ness as much as the next guy (and play him occasionally in teams), but I think you're giving him too much credit here. I mean, it's neither here nor there, I guess, but yeah.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Shiri, can't you just DJ through that too? XD
Marik, we should probably get some more specifics on it against Yoshi before updating it. % it works at, etc.
Marik, we should probably get some more specifics on it against Yoshi before updating it. % it works at, etc.
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
Update it then, it's worth being aware about. >_>
Poltergust
Smash Master
Fine, 4%. It's still a bad move to use against Yoshi. He's better off PK Thundering.
TAKE THAT
Sharky
Smash Master
I think they're both underrated, personally
TAKE THAT
Also,
I respect Ness as much as the next guy (and play him occasionally in teams), but I think you're giving him too much credit here. I mean, it's neither here nor there, I guess, but yeah.
Metatitan
Smash Master
The peach matchup quotes are kind've meh, you took one stocky said from moooonths ago as well as what everyone said months ago. Idc though really, it's your decision.
...
The information is accurate though, right? They offer broad and correct analytical summarizations of the matchup?
You could add some new information, I'm positive you're the most knowledgable person besides EdreesesPieces when it comes to this matchup, perhaps even more so.
The information is accurate though, right? They offer broad and correct analytical summarizations of the matchup?
You could add some new information, I'm positive you're the most knowledgable person besides EdreesesPieces when it comes to this matchup, perhaps even more so.
Metatitan
Smash Master
Not really, up smash doesn't **** peach at all unless she's misspaced herself. They give the impression that up smash is a safe move to use on peach; it's not. She can outspace and punish it when she's in the air and if you up smash her shield you get up smashed in return.
I like to think I'm the best peach at the matchup but Edrees would probably **** yoshies harder just because he's a much better player than me :x
I like to think I'm the best peach at the matchup but Edrees would probably **** yoshies harder just because he's a much better player than me :x
D
Deleted member
Guest
Up smash is only safe when they misspace or commit themselves.
If you upsmash a properly floating peach they can float out of range and punish.
This matchup would be impossible with perfect play.
If you upsmash a properly floating peach they can float out of range and punish.
This matchup would be impossible with perfect play.
hadesblade
Smash Lord
With perfect play neither players would ever be able to use an attack in any match up or they would get punished for it...
Metatitan
Smash Master
Not really, peach has higher priority and better baiting tools. I think what he meant was that if a top peach who knew the matchup and played well went against a top yoshi who knew the matchup and played well, the yoshi would never win.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I didnt mean like impossible human play, i meant like super top level players.
Bwett
Smash Ace
Peach v. Yoshi is a weird matchup overall. If Yoshi can stay far enough away, Yoshi can camp Peach. However, if Peach maintains mid distance, her camp game with turnips wins. It's extremely difficult to approach a turnip camping Peach. It is true that peach can space herself in the air against Yoshi. However, Peach's "spacing" against characters is fairly predictable.
Peach plays a weave game of pretending to approach to bait an attack, jumping back to dodge, and floating in to punish. Many people fall for this strategy because not many characters are able to do this so effectively. However, because usmash beats almost everything Peach has in the air, if you play smart, you can get in and do some major damage. Because of this weave game, if you approach on the ground, run towards Peach. Odds are, she will jump back into a float expecting an attack. Just keep running and don't attack. Her float is too slow, you will catch up to her and be able to usmash before she gets out her fair. Of course, this won't work all the time, but here is where reading and RPS comes in.
Furthermore, Peach is terrible at getting back to ground level from the air. You are in a major advantage if you are below a Peach and she isn't near the ground. Your uair beats her everything. She can airdodge the uair, but another uair will punish it. Uair beats dair. A properly spaced uair will not be punished by toad. If you have her in the air, keep her there and don't let her get back down.
Overall, this matchup is based upon creating walls that are to be broken, baiting moves, punishing those baits, and baiting baits to punish those. If you miss an usmash, she gets a fair. If she misses a fair, you get a grab.
Peach plays a weave game of pretending to approach to bait an attack, jumping back to dodge, and floating in to punish. Many people fall for this strategy because not many characters are able to do this so effectively. However, because usmash beats almost everything Peach has in the air, if you play smart, you can get in and do some major damage. Because of this weave game, if you approach on the ground, run towards Peach. Odds are, she will jump back into a float expecting an attack. Just keep running and don't attack. Her float is too slow, you will catch up to her and be able to usmash before she gets out her fair. Of course, this won't work all the time, but here is where reading and RPS comes in.
Furthermore, Peach is terrible at getting back to ground level from the air. You are in a major advantage if you are below a Peach and she isn't near the ground. Your uair beats her everything. She can airdodge the uair, but another uair will punish it. Uair beats dair. A properly spaced uair will not be punished by toad. If you have her in the air, keep her there and don't let her get back down.
Overall, this matchup is based upon creating walls that are to be broken, baiting moves, punishing those baits, and baiting baits to punish those. If you miss an usmash, she gets a fair. If she misses a fair, you get a grab.
indigestible_wad
Smash Lord
Just crawl under peach and you win. She can't hit you because she floats in the air.
indigestible_wad
Smash Lord
I'm tempted to say I'm serious just to see what happens.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I disagree with bwetts post.
Mainly with the run under peach to deal with her spacing.
There is a problem with this logic.
First of all, playing a guessing game like that can be risky, but im all for guessing games. However, against a knowledgable peach in the matchup, it should not work unless they are like super conditioned, and it shouldnt work more than once for one reason:
Yoshi cannot punish down air. Floating backwards will beat an early releasing upsmash, while floating foward and down airing will beat normal usmashes, because that is not an amazingly quick move.
As soon as the peach sees that you've past "that point" (where the usmash will be not quick enough to beat down air), down air will be used. Yoshi cannot grab it, punish it OOS (in fact, yoshi himself can be punished for shielding it), or spotdodge it. The only thing yoshi has that beats it on the ground is up smash, and down air is much faster and a mistimed down air will generally not be punished too heavily.
Also, as someone who can consistantly beat lucario and G&W down airs with up air, many angles of down air (or hitboxes im not sure) can in fact beat our up air.
I do agree we can get lots of hits while peach attempts to come down due to the bad airdodge, but overall peach punishes harder, camps better in places that matter, and has generally superior options in a neutral position against yoshi.
Mainly with the run under peach to deal with her spacing.
There is a problem with this logic.
First of all, playing a guessing game like that can be risky, but im all for guessing games. However, against a knowledgable peach in the matchup, it should not work unless they are like super conditioned, and it shouldnt work more than once for one reason:
Yoshi cannot punish down air. Floating backwards will beat an early releasing upsmash, while floating foward and down airing will beat normal usmashes, because that is not an amazingly quick move.
As soon as the peach sees that you've past "that point" (where the usmash will be not quick enough to beat down air), down air will be used. Yoshi cannot grab it, punish it OOS (in fact, yoshi himself can be punished for shielding it), or spotdodge it. The only thing yoshi has that beats it on the ground is up smash, and down air is much faster and a mistimed down air will generally not be punished too heavily.
Also, as someone who can consistantly beat lucario and G&W down airs with up air, many angles of down air (or hitboxes im not sure) can in fact beat our up air.
I do agree we can get lots of hits while peach attempts to come down due to the bad airdodge, but overall peach punishes harder, camps better in places that matter, and has generally superior options in a neutral position against yoshi.