Metamorphosis: The Universal Yoshi Matchup Discussion Thread

[hadesblade]

Hades made a smart post?!?! Granted he's responding to marik (<3 Marik), but still I'm quite shocked/impressed.

I thought I was stating the obvious... but I'll take the only compliment I'll probably ever get from you

 

[Delta-cod]

Personally, I'd put a good amount of weight behind what Hades says. I do believe he has consistent Olimar practice, correct me if I'm wrong though. Your friend may just sandbag you all the time. =P

 

[.Marik]

In my experience, when olimar fsmashes, we trade hits with the pikmin. It sends us flying out of our egg, while our egg kill it. It's great that we kill a whole pikmin, when we take 15+ damage (assuming it's not a white pikmin). Also, a grounded olimar can pluck 6 pikmin in the time it takes us to break out of egg roll.

We take damage? I never noticed/realized that. Perhaps it's a characteristic only typical to the purple Pikmin?

You really shouldn't leave a grounded Olimar open. It's one of our few chances to actually approach him and get past his self-made barrier.

Bolded is wrong. Egg roll isn't "efficient" at doing anything. 91 frames minimum time iirc. Also tossed purple pikmin beat out egg roll. Utilt seems like the best way to get pikmin off now imo. If your in the air either bair, nair, or uair depending on what area the pikmin are.

I never said there weren't other options, Yoshi needs to mix things up as much as possible.

You can combo a bair out of egg roll? T_T

:\

Obviously not. We have to drop the Egg, and then follow it up with a Bair or something. It should've been pretty obvious Yoshi has no OoS options and can't perform moves out of a shielded animation.

Hades made a smart post?!?! Granted he's responding to marik (<3 Marik), but still I'm quite shocked/impressed.

<3 Metatitan.

 

[hadesblade]

We take damage? I never noticed/realized that. Perhaps it's a characteristic only typical to the purple Pikmin?

You really shouldn't leave a grounded Olimar open. It's one of our few chances to actually approach him and get past his self-made barrier.

A grounded olimar is when he's most open? Olimar's ground game>>>>>>>his air game. Olimar is one of the easiest chars to juggle with his horrible fall speed and lackluster air dodge. His whistle does make it a bit harder, he still takes the damage even when he isn't hit back out.

I never said there weren't other options, Yoshi needs to mix things up as much as possible.



>___<

Yeah, mixing in egg roll is like mixing in falcon punch, except, with more ending lag and no reward in comparison.

Obviously not. We have to drop the Egg, and then follow it up with a Bair or something. It should've been pretty obvious Yoshi has no OoS options and can't perform moves out of a shielded animation.

You said we could follow up an egg roll with a bair. I was hoping you'd like teach us some new AT to instantly break out of egg roll... if you still haven't gotten the sarcasm, heres a hint, it's there.

 

[.Marik]

A grounded olimar is when he's most open? Olimar's ground game>>>>>>>his air game. Olimar is one of the easiest chars to juggle with his horrible fall speed and lackluster air dodge. His whistle does make it a bit harder, he still takes the damage even when he isn't hit back out.

You misunderstood me. In order to GET HIM IN THE AIR, we need to punish a grounded Olimar and then juggle him.

Yeah, mixing in egg roll is like mixing in falcon punch, except, with more ending lag and no reward in comparison.

I've pulled this off before, please don't speak on other people's behalf.

You said we could follow up an egg roll with a bair. I was hoping you'd like teach us some new AT to instantly break out of egg roll... if you still haven't gotten the sarcasm, heres a hint, it's there.

Oh really? Show me then, supreme intelligent master.

Here's a hint: I wasn't referring to that AT. Just a simple Bair followed by the shielded animation dropping. Pretty simple, and Yoshi can reduce the lag or frames or whatever it is, but the OoS options are still pretty much non-existant.

 

[hadesblade]

You misunderstood me. In order to GET HIM IN THE AIR, we need to punish a grounded Olimar and then juggle him.

That's not what you said. You said he's most open on the ground.

You really shouldn't leave a grounded Olimar open. It's one of our few chances to actually approach him and get past his self-made barrier.

see? ^^

I've pulled this off before, please don't speak on other people's behalf.

The falcon punch or the egg roll? And if it's a half competent player that know's anything about falcon/yoshi (depending which one your talking about), the amount of punishing you take from trying to mix them in greatly out weighs the reward you get when you land one.

Here's a hint: I wasn't referring to that AT. Just a simple Bair followed by the shielded animation dropping. Pretty simple, and Yoshi can reduce the lag or frames or whatever it is, but the OoS options are still pretty much non-existant.

lolwut?

And I'm tempted to siggy this:

Show me then, supreme intelligent master.

for waisting my time :D

 

[.Marik]

That's not what you said. You said he's most open on the ground.

see? ^^

Please re-read what I posted. For the love of ****ing God, it's sitting right there.

You really shouldn't leave a grounded Olimar open. It's one of our few chances to actually approach him and get past his self-made barrier.

Thank you, have a nice day.

The falcon punch or the egg roll? And if it's a half competent player that know's anything about falcon/yoshi (depending which one your talking about), the amount of punishing you take from trying to mix them in greatly out weighs the reward you get when you land one.

I've done both. Yes, the risk is greater than the reward, but it's still possible and can be considered as "thinking outside of the box" a notion some Yoshi's are always repeating.

lolwut?

And I'm tempted to siggy this: for waisting my time :D

No, you're the one wasting my time. You're unable to grasp such a simple concept as this one:

Egg Roll> Kills Pikmin> Bair> Juggle in the air= extreme damage, an effective approaching manner in an unexpected and unorthodox fashion, and possibly easier to set up KO's.

YES, OTHER OPTIONS EXIST. SUIT YOURSELF, THIS IS BECOMING REALLY REPETITIVE.

It's not that hard.

And if you insert that into your signature, it really is a pathetic attempt at trying to inflate your already overblown ego.

:D

 

[Delta-cod]

Marik, I don't think you understand what you're saying.

You're telling us that the best time to approach Olimar is when he's grounded. A grounded Olimar has:

His dumb grabs
His dumb smashes
Pikmin Toss
The ability to shield and as a result shieldgrab
The ability to merely jump and smack us with an aerial or jump away.

So it is within our best interest to approach him as he's grounded? No.

Our best chance of approaching him safely is when he's in the air and throwing a pikmin. THIS is when you approach him, not when he's standing on the ground. He's throwing a pikmin, so he has the lag of that move which won't knock you away unless it's a purple pikmin, though you can even beat that with a bair. Since he's already in the air, you can get him in landing lag or he has to DJ away, putting him higher into the air. If he's grounded, he'll merely shut us down.

 

[.Marik]

Marik, I don't think you understand what you're saying.

You're telling us that the best time to approach Olimar is when he's grounded. A grounded Olimar has:

His dumb grabs
His dumb smashes
Pikmin Toss
The ability to shield and as a result shieldgrab
The ability to merely jump and smack us with an aerial or jump away.

So it is within our best interest to approach him as he's grounded? No.

Our best chance of approaching him safely is when he's in the air and throwing a pikmin. THIS is when you approach him, not when he's standing on the ground. He's throwing a pikmin, so he has the lag of that move which won't knock you away unless it's a purple pikmin, though you can even beat that with a bair. Since he's already in the air, you can get him in landing lag or he has to DJ away, putting him higher into the air. If he's grounded, he'll merely shut us down.

But that's not what I meant.

I mean when he's grounded and has no Pikmin due to a successful Egg Roll which destroyed most or all of them; then we should approach with something along the lines of a Bair or Pivot Grab.

Approaching Olimar in an offensive manner otherwise is just plain ********.

I already mentioned multiple times that Olimar is vulnerable in the air and we should use this for juggling/punishing options. Having Olimar in the air is pretty great, and besides a Dair/Fair/Uair, we have nothing at all to worry about.

Olimar players understand the risk they face in the air. Most of them will try to avoid or limit these situations.

That's why when you have an Olimar without Pikmin, you get his *** in the air, or you UpSmash the hell out of him. Either way, he's going aerial.

That's all folks.

Sorry if I worded it bad. =[

 

[bigman40]

The amount of time it takes for Olimar to repick all his pikmin is very small. Hell, he doesn't even need all of his pikmin to at least pivot grab/Utilt/etc. us to continue picking. I almost never punished an Olimar picking his pikmin back. I just waited and camped to get the right time to grab him when he was steady throwing pikmin at me.


~Mieu

 

[.Marik]

Hmm. When Olimar's throwing Pikmin?

Good point.

It's still possible, maybe situational. :[

It has worked for me, so it can't be that hard to perform consistently...

Anyways, unless we can discuss other aspects, we should change the topic. I'm just repeating myself and it's getting somewhat annoying.

Falco? Wario?

 

[bigman40]

The thing about what you're claiming is that you assume a no-pikmin Olimar to either shield or just continue picking. All he needs is one Pikmin so intercept us technically with a Pivot grab or shield the Bair -> Fsmash. It's dangerous to put forth an all out attack on him when he's grounded at any time.

The reason why I opted for grabbing most of the time was because I was able to grab most Olimars when they SH spammed at me to make the pikmin attach to me. I normally just stood across the stage, spamming eggs until I either got an egg inside (hella hard to avoid the pikmin), or when I saw an opening to grab them when they SHed just to get to me. All the other pikmin are just a nuisance until he pulls out Purple pikmin. Purple ones stop Yoshi from doing mostly anything, and you have to take out time just to kill them to get to Olimar.


We can do Wario is you want. Falcon is nothing that should be gone over unless people plan to get in Low-tier Singles/Doubles.


~Mieu

 

[.Marik]

I see.

It appears different things work for us. The Olimar's I've played immediately started picking, but I had retaliated. Sometimes I got Grabbed or something, but Bairs or Pivot Grabs usually worked with a fast enough reaction. See, Egg Roll could potentially get rid of some Pikmin, reducing the risk and that move fulfilling it's virtually non-existant usefulness.

If Olimar is open... a Bair or Pivot Grab> DownThrow could lead to Uairs, more Bairs, and when Olimar is airborne, he's practically helpless against our aerial combat.

UpSmash gets him up there too, providing it's spaced and timed correctly.

YES.

Wario sounds good.

I don't have the patience to do the standing ChainGrab on Wario. Wat do?

 

[bigman40]

YES.

Wario sounds good.

I don't have the patience to do the standing ChainGrab on Wario. Wat do?

Well, it's already going to be a different view since this MU is the most I use DR in to keep myself moving. Wario for the most part has to camp unless he wants to get grabbed. Granted he'll get a few openings where he can Dair and such, we (advocating DR here) can just see what is coming and get out of the way before he can fully reach us, which allows us to pivot grab/Bair/etc. him.

It's good to mixup between a FH Bair and SH Bair, and keeping your distance with egg lay is a good retreating option also. I don't like dbl jabbing in this MU much, so I recommend to stay away from doing that, but mixing it in every now and then is still good.

I'll now proceed to wait for some other thoughts on this MU.


~Mieu

 

[.Marik]

I actually 2-0'd a pretty decent Wario in Pools in a recent Tournament.

He didn't camp enough and was punished for it.

They were very good matches though, situational Nair spike underneath Lylat Cruise for the ****ing win.

 

[Shiri]

Malcolm taught me how to grab Wario.

That matchup is kinda fun now.

 

[Deleted member]

Wario is so easy.
Just like randomly do full hop up airs, scare the **** out of him.
Dont egg lay very much.
Umm grab only when you know you will get it.

 

[Delta-cod]

I don't have the patience to do the standing ChainGrab on Wario. Wat do?

Be a man and do a pivot grab infinite back and forth across the stage.

Wario is just another gay MU, lol. It's really campy. I personally throw arced and soft eggs so they can explode in the air and maybe intercept him out of an airdodge or something. I also attempt to read his movements in the air and pivot grab them. I'll go for the grab after he double jumps so he has less options. I mix in some Bair as well, but otherwise this MU is nothing special besides camping. As long as you're spacing your pivot grabs well you really can't be punished for them.

Honestly, every MU that involves an opponent that likes to be in the air is incredibly campy and stupid. =/

 

[bigman40]

If you grab Wario, just Usmash him until he gets to kill %s. Then you either Fsmash or Uair depending on your position on the stage.


~Mieu

 

[Shiri]

I go for the standing chaingrab just because it's easier to me.

Standing chaingrab is like planking while doing damage. It's great.

 

[Delta-cod]

I personally go for a the pivot one because I'm better at buffering dashes than standing grabs.

I know, I'm weird. It looks cooler anyways.

 

[Metatitan]

You should rarely get to do the standing infinite (which are normally banned btw ). Warios should ban FD on yoshi and then ur next best bet is SV, and they can time the grab release so that they land on the platform.

 

[Delta-cod]

It's not standing if you're pivot sliding, is it?

You can do it on Battlefield sort of. You can also get it on Frigate, though it's not really an infinite cuz of stage flipping. There are a lot of spots on other stages where you can do it, it's just a lot less viable than on FD.

It's still an even MU either way. Just really gay.

 

[hadesblade]

Wow... marik I've already said an olimar can repick 6 pikmin in the lag of you breaking out of your egg...

And try egg lay->dsmash/usmash for killing pikmin. The egg lay puts him in the air, and your smash usually kills all or all except one.

ANYWAY ON TO THE WARIO MATCHUP xD

I really like ps1 in this matchup when it's on the normal part. The match usually does take nearly 8 mins if it isn't timed. Anyway I usually grab release -> fsmash for damage then usmash for the kill, because even at the edge of a stage with perfect DI, which a wario should have if your grab releasing, then it doesn't kill until realy high percents.

 

[Shiri]

I up air for the KO.

I've had so many Warios live to ridix percents off of fresh upsmashes. When I release for the KO, I don't want them to come back.

 

[Deleted member]

If its near the center of the stage i uair if its near the edge i fsmash.

 

[.Marik]

Be a man and do a pivot grab infinite back and forth across the stage.

I like the way you think.

 

[bigman40]

Meta Knight - Disadvantage
Snake - Disadvantage
Wario - Advantage (Kinda Even idk)
Falco - Disadvantage
Diddy Kong - Disadvantage
King Dedede - Disadvantage
Marth - Disadvantage
Pikachu - ???
Olimar - ??? (Not made decisions on this yet)
Ice Climbers - Even 
R.O.B. - ???
Kirby - ???
Lucario - Disadvantage
Zero Suit Samus - ??? (Played nick riddle though)
Toon Link - Disadvantage
Pit - ???
Donkey Kong - Even
Peach - Even
Mr. Game And Watch- ???
Luigi - Disadvantage
Fox - ???
Wolf - ???
Sonic - Even
Sheik - ???
Bowser - ???
Zelda - Even
Pokémon Trainer - Advantage
Ike - Even
Lucas - Even (Maybe advantage)
Mario - Even
Ness - ???
Yoshi - This never happens.
Samus - ???
Jigglypuff - Advantage
Captain Falcon - Advantage 
Link - Even
Ganondorf - Advantage

~Mieu

 

[.Marik]

I have something I've been wanting to say in regards to this matchup discussion thread.

In spite of the completely redundant "Egg Rolling on Olimar does have some situational yet viable opportunities" discussion, we sort of got off track.

It is a possible setup for reasons already mentioned. Yes, most of you are right in the aspect of it not being the best possible one, but remember, Yoshi's need to think outside of the box more.

That's what this thread is for. To discuss many matchups at the same time, with feedback and ideas from each other to promote understanding and to help individuals with particular questions.

Now, I think we should focus on the harder matchups for Yoshi, which is sadly to say, a lot of them.

MetaKnight, Marth, Snake, all those common Tournament-viable characters.

I've also been struggling against Kuenzel at many of the Tournaments I've attended, who is a Zero Suit Samus player. Because of sheer unlucky fate, I seem to get pitted against him almost every single time in Brackets. I always get *****, more so than against Snake, Dedede, Marth, and Mr. Game And Watch players. I don't know why, I play with all the tips and strategies discussed and mentioned various times on these Boards.

I think I get pressured too easily, and Luigi is also a hard one for me, even though I'm really knowledgable about that matchup because I play both characters, and have a lot of matchup experience playing PoisonMist at Tournaments, a fairly underrated Luigi.

So, point in hand, please help each other out, contribute your own knowledge, and don't be afraid to ask questions.

People should also stop overhyping Yoshi's ChainGrab. It's not that good on anyone besides Wario, Squirtle, and possibly Ganondorf.

I've also been thinking about changing the thread title to something more unique and original.

Thanks for reading this.

 

[Delta-cod]

You sure like changing the names of things.

Anyways, here's something I'd like to discuss.

Recovering/returning from the air vs. MK

I feel the MU could be put even if we can find ways to get back to the stage. We are actually very even up until we get hit into the air or offstage.

For ZSS: It's not really a camping MU, and I love my camping. It's very possible to put on good pressure when you get in close, but ZSS can just space you away. I usually stay long range and wait for her to approach, since she's inclined to because of eggs. I'll either grab her approach and CG or counter it with an attack and go from there. I used to have problems with it, but it's a fun MU.

For Luigi: I've never played one offline, though I understand the theory. Just play gay, he's slow. Run and camp, run and camp. That's my plan anyways.

 

[bigman40]

So now we want MU tips? Alright then. I'll contribute starting at the end of this week.


~Mieu

 

[Sharky]

I'll hopefully get to play snakeee this weekend, so I can contribute to the ZSS match-up then if you want =)

 

[Delta-cod]

I missed my chance to play Snakee at Viridian. Drat. =[

 

[.Marik]

I'll hopefully get to play snakeee this weekend, so I can contribute to the ZSS match-up then if you want =)

Thank you very much. That would be appreciated.

Also, when a fair chunk of matchups have been analyzed and summarized, just like normal matchup threads, I will include an in-depth summary of the matchup in the OP.

The "Even" "Disadvantage" and "Advantage" poll options will also be featured, with who said what, in a format Silent Beast kindly displayed a few pages back.

I'm looking forward to this thread advancing!

 

[hadesblade]

Recovering vs mk is such a pain. If you go low, you get dair/nair'd, if you go high you eat a uair or shuttle loop. Even when you can make it back to the stage, you'll still take a lot of damage in the process ._.

 

[.Marik]

So, one more time, let's get everyone's opinion and thoughts on Olimar and Zero Suit Samus, whom we've discussed in-depth a few pages back.

And please, add anything if you feel the need. The more information we contribute, the more correct and helpful our matchup discussions will be.

And I feel we must discuss MetaKnight until pages are loaded with information, he's a troublesome character. There's not much a character like Yoshi can do.



Hadesblade has the right idea.

Good everything, no weaknesses. His aerials shut us down, his ground game surpasses ours, OoS UpB is a pain in the buttocks, and he can kill, punish, and approach really well.

The ChainGrab. I've had MetaKnight players Dair my Yoshi and break out of the process during the Grab-Release animation. Am I doing something wrong?

 

[Sharky]

I still feel like this should go into the character threads, this is feeling like the old disorganized mu thread all over again. >.<

 

[.Marik]

I'm working on it, I can't include a summary that lacks substantial information.

Trust me, I'll get the job done.

 

[Shiri]

I mean, this is probably just going to be used for really general analysis.

**hint**

Marik, as for down air on your grab release, you may not be buffering your dash out of the release.

If that is indeed your problem, try double tapping the analog; it's the easiest way I've found to buffer.

 

[.Marik]

Hmm.

I -usually- time it right, albeit for those rare occasions.

Anywho, I'll be sure to place extra emphasis onto the buffering.

And we'll eventually get the desired information required for an in-depth analysis; eventually found in the OP.

But we need information. :D