Metamorphosis: The Universal Yoshi Matchup Discussion Thread

[.Marik]

Agreed with Burntsockz.

 

[Poltergust]

Isn't that basically what I've been saying but in more elaborate terms, Sockz?

Like I said, the #1 thing you should focus on this match-up is to SPACE ZELDA. You want to keep her at mid-range, where you can comfortably grab her and she can't easily hit you.

 

[Deleted member]

No, lol
you said we couldnt punish most of her moves.
Thats false.
You can barely punish anything on block with yoshi, why bring it up XD
You punish other ways.

Actually scratch the matchup ratio i have no clue.
I honestly suck at the matchup with yoshi, but meh

 

[Poltergust]

Ah, I guess I was kind of limited in thinking of situations. I meant punishing out of shielding and spot-dodging, but forgot about baiting and such. =P

 

[.Marik]

And I was referring to baiting and spacing the entire time.

About time we're on the same page, lol.

50:50 sounds about right. 55:45 Zelda maybe.

Not too much of a problem.

 

[hadesblade]

LOL@HADESSSS!!!
So wrong its rediculous....
Zelda has so many worse flaws than her grab, her grab actually is the longest non tether so her pivot grab is pretty ****, and she punishes stuff with it, besides having a crappy shield grab.

Stocky always says I'm wrong then never elaborates.

Are you saying zelda having a decent grab wouldn't make her a lot better?

 

[Deleted member]

No im saying thats not her worse flaw.

Just because having D3s grab would make her good, doesnt mean that she would be good if she had a better grab (depends on the grab). Her and ganondorf too hehe.
Shes still awful.

 

[Kofu]

Noticing that some high-level Yoshis think that the Game & Watch match-up is even, I'd like to ask why.

Not that I don't think that it could be even (I don't really have enough experience), but it seems... odd to me.

 

[Delta-cod]

Time for my opinions and stuff. Woohoo!

Sheik: You should be able to just Rising Nair out of the lock. Or just DJ out. I really doubt Sheik's ftilt has enough knockback to beat the Armor at reasonable locking percents. Kinda removes the guessing game.

Needles are a pain. Blork. Don't camp.

We can juggle Sheik pretty well. She doesn't have many options from below in the air. Yay.

Zelda: Boring and stupid. Neither really camp the other, and it turns into a bait and punish game at mid range. Luckily, Zelda sux mid range. Get her into the air and destroy her up there and punish her landings with grabs or usmashes. Once you have a lead, camp, since Zelda can't approach. Dins isn't useful, don't worry about it.

G&W: We can semi-camp him so he has to approach. Eggs beat some of his air options, Usmash beats turtle. Run under him and pivot grab/usmash. We have an answer to everything G&W can do. He just kills really early, and that makes me sad. It's kinda hard to land the kill move on G&W.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Zelda: Boring and stupid.

This is all that needed to be said, really. Zelda can't approach and Yoshi can't play aggressive. A whole lot of patience involved with this dumb MU.

Even

 

[Shiri]

Noticing that some high-level Yoshis think that the Game & Watch match-up is even, I'd like to ask why.

Not that I don't think that it could be even (I don't really have enough experience), but it seems... odd to me.

Why would that seem odd to you?

 

[bigman40]

Yoshi vs Olimar is boring and gay.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Yoshi vs Olimar is boring and gay.

This.

I'm guessing you played Fearless at Halloween Bash, heh?

 

[bigman40]

This.

I'm guessing you played Fearless at Halloween Bash, heh?

Played him and DanGR. Fearless gave me a few ideas when we played (he 1 stocked me both times I think). Then My matches vs DanGR were even closer since I had a little idea of what to do.

 

[Poltergust]

I played against Fearless in a tourney match and MM at the last Gigs (and it actually is the last Gigs, sadly ). Won both times, although it was close. I think I remember giving him trouble with b-air, but I think I was too aggressive. That was the first time I've played against an Olimar that knows what he's doing, though.

I... can't really comment on the match-up. Too little experience. I should have played with him more, but Olimar is so annoying to deal with.

 

[bigman40]

I'ma be honest, it's a waiting game until you see Oli get purple pikmin. If he's spamming all his pikmin at you (not including purple) you can just grab him and juggle him until the match resets. Egging won't do too much other than baiting (be accurate as hell though). I was fairly bored playing vs DanGR, and I was still close to winning even after learning soo little in that MU. When I find another Oli, I'll figure out what Yoshi has vs Purple pikmin, then I'll know what to do in that Mu.

 

[Poltergust]

Oh, I do remember grabbing him a lot (man, I have such horrible memory...). Olimar is actually pretty easy to juggle with grabs. I didn't use Egg Lay all that much against Olimar, though. I have trouble trying to get small characters with it for some reason. I should probably work on that, especially for a match-up such as this. =/

 

[bigman40]

I didn't use egg lay much because of how easily it can eget interrupted when you're approaching with it or something. It's fine if you're retreating, but that's really it.

 

[Airborne]

every time i try to egg lay an oli, i get hit with a ****ing purple pikmin....

 

[.Marik]

Olimar vs. Yoshi is probably 60:40 Olimar's favour, at the very most.

I actually have a lot of fun in this matchup, Pivot Grabbing, UpSmash, and Bair are really useful, and can be used to approach Olimar without getting punished. Moderately.

Olimar has an magnificent grabbing game, it does insane damage and can **** us up if we're not careful. He can also kill early, and certain Pikmin allow for good defensive killing setups and range. Purple Pikmin are dangerous, I've had 30% damage in literally 2 seconds from an aggressive and cunning offensive Olimar. Now, Olimar doesn't look like much of a threat when it comes to killing power, but it's a quality he possesses. He also has great range when it comes to grounded moves.

This is a battle of wits, both characters have tons of options to deal the other damage, although Olimar has more potential and better tools to deal with Yoshi than the other way around.

Egg Roll is more useful in this matchup than it normally is in various other matchups.

It ***** Pikmin, but I wouldn't abuse the move, it can become quite predictable and Olimar can still Grab us OoS.

What I said in the Olimar vs. Yoshi discussion thread.

You'll most likely be playing a campy, baiting, and sneaky Olimar that will punish Yoshi for any stupid and untimely moves, and his Pikmin become a sort of barrier.

His ground game is superb, but Olimar's aerial game is somewhat sub-par with the exception of getting blasted by a purple Pikmin through the usage of Fair or Dair. :D

This matchup can become pretty nerve-wrecking though, lol.

This ain't Ganondorf. Take your time.

 

[Bwett]

We are disadvantaged against G&W. He has a huge resource of tools to gimp us and keep us off stage with bair, nair, and fair and off the ledge with dtilt and dsmash, both of which can hit us if we throw an egg. He lives forever and we die really fast. Furthermore, bair beats out almost everything. Usmash can come in handy in the matchup, but if they do bair properly, you won't be able to get in. Our uair can beat dair, but it's extremely difficult to time, especially since they can change the speed dair comes out. Eggs can be useful to a point, but not entirely effective. If G&W is in the air, feel free to spam them, but be careful if you are both grounded.

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

u cant easily approach GnW he has so many options to counter it, although there are exceptions. egg help alot especially retreating egg lays from mid range. i dont remember if GnW can approach well, i dont think so.

egg roll should not be use on oli, ever even when there in the air. i guess if they have no pikmen but there are better options then egg roll. if an egg roll is ever use an egg roll its when oli is in the air but even then punishing it isnt hard

how is lucario suppose to be played?


dont forget playing punishably willl make u better if u use more nair... =P

 

[.Marik]

egg roll should not be use on oli, ever even when there in the air. i guess if they have no pikmen but there are better options then egg roll. if an egg roll is ever use an egg roll its when oli is in the air but even then punishing it isnt hard

Who uses Egg Roll in the AIR?

Egg Roll exists for the sole purpose of getting rid of Pikmin so Olimar doesn't have that impenetrable Pikmin fortress.

You use Egg Roll in the air, and you're getting ****ing punished for being a douchebag. It has vulnerability frames, remember? You'll be helpless when falling. Not a good situation to put yourself in.

And even if you don't break out of the Egg Roll animation, it's easily predictable, has horrible range, and you'll still get punished either in the air or when you land.

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

at that first part i meant when oli is in the air (there should be they're),, still jab or ftilt or dair works just as good, cause of the start up/ending lagg of the egg roll.

 

[.Marik]

Um.

I see.

So, you are instead implying Yoshi should use Egg Roll when Olimar is in the air?

Egg Roll is a grounded move, and it will be a futile and absurd attempt at approaching Olimar.

Your tactic makes no reasonable sense whatsoever.

 

[Delta-cod]

Maybe because Olimar has to fall and won't always be 8162019001 miles in the air, right? IIRC Egg Rolling an Oli as they were landing used to be an old tactic, though it's been countered or proven less useful than originally thought.

 

[.Marik]

It will never hit if Olimar is in the air, unless you are counting that EXTREMELY situational jump the Egg Roll sequence gives Yoshi upon landing from a moderately high distance?

It will never work. Either Olimar will be too far from the ground in the air, he'll simply Grab you once he lands, the Olimar won't be a complete ****** and stand in the way of obstruction for however long it takes for Egg Roll to hit him, or he'll simply make you eat a Fair/Bair/Dair upon almost landing.

Really, stop listening to Edge. He doesn't have a clue to what he's talking about.

However, Egg Rolling Olimar on the GROUND as an OFFENSIVE move, is a completely different situation and actually works on a somewhat regular basis.

Egg Roll ***** Pikmin. That's all it should be used for.

 

[Delta-cod]

It will never hit if Olimar is in the air, unless you are counting that EXTREMELY situational jump the Egg Roll sequence gives Yoshi upon landing from a moderately high distance?

It will never work. Either Olimar will be too far from the ground in the air, he'll simply Grab you once he lands, the Olimar won't be a complete ****** and stand in the way of obstruction for however long it takes for Egg Roll to hit him, or he'll simply make you eat a Fair/Bair/Dair upon almost landing.

Really, stop listening to Edge. He doesn't have a clue to what he's talking about.

However, Egg Rolling Olimar on the GROUND as an OFFENSIVE move, is a completely different situation and actually works on a somewhat regular basis.

Egg Roll ***** Pikmin. That's all it should be used for.

I wasn't listening to Edge so much as interpreting his post. What's with snobbish attitude lately?

Anyways, Oli is easy once you get close to him. Really, it's getting into the wall that's a pain. Once you get that one hit on him it can be incredibly difficult for him to regain his momentum.

 

[Silent Beast]

It will never hit if Olimar is in the air, unless you are counting that EXTREMELY situational jump the Egg Roll sequence gives Yoshi upon landing from a moderately high distance?

It will never work. Either Olimar will be too far from the ground in the air, he'll simply Grab you once he lands, the Olimar won't be a complete ****** and stand in the way of obstruction for however long it takes for Egg Roll to hit him, or he'll simply make you eat a Fair/Bair/Dair upon almost landing.

Does he not mean to use a grounded egg roll when Olimar is landing?

 

[Delta-cod]

I think I said that.

Whoops, I typo'd in "following" for landing. I fixed it now. Haha >.>''

 

[.Marik]

What's with snobbish attitude lately?

Sorry, I never intentionally meant to sound like that. I apologize.

I just can't believe we're discussing the semantics of such a setup, one that would never work.

Anyways, Oli is easy once you get close to him. Really, it's getting into the wall that's a pain. Once you get that one hit on him it can be incredibly difficult for him to regain his momentum.

Agreed. And for that, you may need Egg Roll to **** his Pikmin. But he can still Grab us OoS. That's our only outstanding flaw with this particular approach option.

Does he not mean to use a grounded egg roll when Olimar is landing?

Maybe. We can still get punished for it, and it has to be in the exact appropriate distance, or hitbox, in order for it to work.

There are many ways for Olimar to avoid this, and it's easily predictable.

It might work once, but that's about it when it comes to a high-level Olimar player.

Sorry if I misinterpreted Edge's post, but that's what it HONESTLY sounded like he was suggesting.

 

[Shiri]

Edge was specifically referring to when Olimar is landing.

It's not hard to do, despite the fact that you might have to eat some passive damage, but it's great for slamming airdodges.

Actually, do Olimars still airdodge to the ground, or do they try to abuse the whistle? Or, conversely, do they think that the whistles are too easy to see coming, so they avoid them? I'm not sure as I haven't played a really good Olimar in a few months, so I don't know what's hot and poppin in the Olimar world these days.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'm not sure what Oli's do these days. All I know is that I pivot grab them when they land. It beats both those options. :D

The Egg Roll might be decent in a wtf KO move. Maybe.

 

[.Marik]

Sorry for the hasty responses on behalf of my misinterpretation.

In that specific case, we might be able to hit Olimar, we can still be punished for it though, and I wouldn't use Egg Roll for that particular instance anyways.

We could simply perform a sliding UpSmash, or a Pivot Grab, which will most likely work twice as well.

Most Olimar players know the weakness they face in the air, and usually don't leave themselves open due to said predicament.

 

[YoshiIslander77z]

It will never hit if Olimar is in the air, unless you are counting that EXTREMELY situational jump the Egg Roll sequence gives Yoshi upon landing from a moderately high distance?

It will never work. Either Olimar will be too far from the ground in the air, he'll simply Grab you once he lands, the Olimar won't be a complete ****** and stand in the way of obstruction for however long it takes for Egg Roll to hit him, or he'll simply make you eat a Fair/Bair/Dair upon almost landing.

i was refering to what u qouted earlier saying egg roll "Egg Roll is more useful in this matchup than it normally is in various other matchups." 1 use doesnt make it very useful especially because egg roll is laggy

Really, stop listening to Edge. He doesn't have a clue to what he's talking about.

Egg Roll ***** Pikmin. That's all it should be used for.

so ur saying we should use egg roll a move with 24 frames of start up lagg and the earliest the move can end is frame 93 is a better option for killing pikmen then a jab or tilt which all startup in less than 10 frames and end with less then 30 frames?

i think ive played this game a few times, and have an idea of playing an olimar

edit: i was thinking of how egg roll was useful in this match and i asumed that killing pikmen isnt one of his better options

 

[.Marik]

...

Looks like my words have fallen on deaf ears.

I'll get back to you sometime later, hopefully I can slack off again in Media Arts class.

*Leaves for English class*

 

[.Marik]

'Sup. Sorry about the double post.

i was refering to what u qouted earlier saying egg roll "Egg Roll is more useful in this matchup than it normally is in various other matchups." 1 use doesnt make it very useful especially because egg roll is laggy

Egg Roll is indeed more useful in this matchup than it is in other particular matchups, but that really isn't saying much. Egg Roll is a very mediocre and lackluster move overall.

However, it is suitable and appropriate for approaching Olimar's Pikmin, it's been proven the full momentum and force of Yoshi's Egg Roll animation obliterates Pikmin, leaving Olimar defenseless and open for juggling/attacking without getting punished.

It's pretty efficient though, just don't overuse it. Getting Grabbed OoS is really, really annoying.

so ur saying we should use egg roll a move with 24 frames of start up lagg and the earliest the move can end is frame 93 is a better option for killing pikmen then a jab or tilt which all startup in less than 10 frames and end with less then 30 frames?

Yes, we should use Egg Roll moderately. Jabs and Tilts don't kill Pikmin nearly as effectively, or at least not to my experience. While they should still be used in this matchup for obvious reasons, the fact remains Egg Roll is really efficient at killing Pikmin, and we could even ram through Olimar and follow it up with a Bair or something, leading to juggling or other damage-racking options.

edit: i was thinking of how egg roll was useful in this match and i asumed that killing pikmen isnt one of his better options

Yoshi has unique characteristics. While Yoshi's entire moveset wasn't made for the primary reason of killing Pikmin, it's still remotely possible in this manner.

 

[Shiri]

D:<

 

[hadesblade]

'Sup. Sorry about the double post.

Egg Roll is indeed more useful in this matchup than it is in other particular matchups, but that really isn't saying much. Egg Roll is a very mediocre and lackluster move overall.

However, it is suitable and appropriate for approaching Olimar's Pikmin, it's been proven the full momentum and force of Yoshi's Egg Roll animation obliterates Pikmin, leaving Olimar defenseless and open for juggling/attacking without getting punished.

In my experience, when olimar fsmashes, we trade hits with the pikmin. It sends us flying out of our egg, while our egg kill it. It's great that we kill a whole pikmin, when we take 15+ damage (assuming it's not a white pikmin). Also, a grounded olimar can pluck 6 pikmin in the time it takes us to break out of egg roll.

Yes, we should use Egg Roll moderately. Jabs and Tilts don't kill Pikmin nearly as effectively, or at least not to my experience. While they should still be used in this matchup for obvious reasons, the fact remains Egg Roll is really efficient at killing Pikmin, and

Bolded is wrong. Egg roll isn't "efficient" at doing anything. 91 frames minimum time iirc. Also tossed purple pikmin beat out egg roll. Utilt seems like the best way to get pikmin off now imo. If your in the air either bair, nair, or uair depending on what area the pikmin are.

we could even ram through Olimar and follow it up with a Bair or something, leading to juggling or other damage-racking options.

You can combo a bair out of egg roll? T_T

 

[Metatitan]

Hades made a smart post?!?! Granted he's responding to marik (<3 Marik), but still I'm quite shocked/impressed.