Metamorphosis: The Universal Yoshi Matchup Discussion Thread

[Metatitan]

I wonder if yoshi blood is green. I've skinned plenty of yoshi mains but I never pay attention to them bleeding out.

 

[Chaco]

Anyyyways, Yoshi mains don't bleed out. They just hit their period while getting ****ed by another character.

 

[Poltergust]

I wonder if yoshi blood is green. I've skinned plenty of yoshi mains but I never pay attention to them bleeding out.

I still have the scars to prove it.

 

[Delta-cod]

Those aren't scars, just a bunch of skin that died from not showering. Everyone knows Yoshi *****.

Geez Polter clean yourself moar. >=[

 

[Metatitan]

I still have the scars to prove it.

Delta's right, I've havent ***** played you yet. Your scars are from lack of hygiene.

 

[.Marik]

words

Do you argue for the sake of arguing? Semantics semantics.

You're only listing out situational aspects of separating Ice Climbers. Yes, they exist, and Bair>Nair off-stage is usually more effective, but once again, If the player knows what's up, it is still considerably harder to perform the task of removing them from the presence of one another.

We most likely have to approach them in order to accomplish this task, and Ice Climbers will punish Yoshi for any mistakes and poor spacing tactics.

 

[Delta-cod]

Do you argue for the sake of arguing? Semantics semantics.

You're only listing out situational aspects of separating Ice Climbers. Yes, they exist, and Bair>Nair off-stage is usually more effective, but once again, If the player knows what's up, it is still considerably harder to perform the task of removing them from the presence of one another.

We most likely have to approach them in order to accomplish this task, and Ice Climbers will punish Yoshi for any mistakes and poor spacing tactics.

My point --------------------------------------->You

I was talking about gimping the AI climber. Not about separation. I conceded that it was hard to approach and separate the climbers. We don't need to approach anyways, unless it's considerably safer to do so, for example after landing an egg. ICs can't out camp us, and if they get close, we can always SHAD away. ICs don't have fast movement speed.

I'm also against arguing for the sake of it. I will admit I'm wrong if I'm given enough evidence to convince me I'm wrong. I won't just give up for the sake of ending it.

 

[.Marik]

My point --------------------------------------->You

Cool story bro.

I was talking about gimping the AI climber. Not about separation. I conceded that it was hard to approach and separate the climbers. We don't need to approach anyways, unless it's considerably safer to do so, for example after landing an egg. ICs can't out camp us, and if they get close, we can always SHAD away. ICs don't have fast movement speed.

And "gimping" can't possibly exist without "separating" them. They'll simply UpB.

Ice Climbers don't really need to "camp" us, they have a lot of other viable tools to choose from.

Again, situational options on Yoshi's behalf ended by a well placed FSmash, DSmash, or ChainGrab. If we don't approach, we should bait and play carefully, as I've already said so, but what if the Ice Climbers also play defensive?

I'm also against arguing for the sake of it. I will admit I'm wrong if I'm given enough evidence to convince me I'm wrong. I won't just give up for the sake of ending it.

You claimed the matchup was Even. I'm trying to give you an example why one of your "reasons" are unrealistic and doesn't really work out for Yoshi, per se. I'm merely trying to understand what makes it "Even" because I will always think it's at least 60:40, which is probably the correct matchup ratio, in my unbiased, personal opinion.

I'm not necessarily trying to prove you wrong, but a factor you listed out in Yoshi's favour isn't as easy as it sounds, and Ice Climbers can usually punish us for attempting to separate them in that manner, or prevent it, which subsequently leads into us getting punished because Yoshi doesn't have as many good tools and options Ice Climbers may possess.

 

[Delta-cod]

Cool story bro.

Brilliant Narrative, Comrade

And "gimping" can't possibly exist without "separating" them. They'll simply UpB.

Actually, when using their up B, only one climber is thrown to the ledge and that climber pulls the other up. I believe the AI is thrown first. You could actually just Dair them and hit the vulnerable climber to screw up their recovery.

Ice Climbers don't really need to "camp" us, they have a lot of other viable tools to choose from.

So, desynched approaches? Most of which can be beaten by a well placed egg to hit the vulnerable climber as they're doing their move.

Again, situational options on Yoshi's behalf ended by a well placed FSmash, DSmash, or ChainGrab. If we don't approach, we should bait and play carefully, as I've already said so, but what if the Ice Climbers also play defensive?

Everything is situational, always. Some situations are just more present than others. /semantics

Again, we don't need to approach unless the chances of being punished are incredibly slim, and even lessened with careful play. If both players are defensive, the match is going to take a looooooooooong time. Long time. Like the Lucas and Kirby MU is careful play is being used. Just don't get anxious.

You claimed the matchup was Even. I'm trying to give you an example why one of your "reasons" are unrealistic and doesn't really work out for Yoshi, per se. I'm merely trying to understand what makes it "Even" because I will always think it's at least 60:40, which is probably the correct matchup ratio, in my unbiased, personal opinion.

I'm not necessarily trying to prove you wrong, but a factor you listed out in Yoshi's favour isn't as easy as it sounds, and Ice Climbers can usually punish us for attempting to separate them in that manner, or prevent it, which subsequently leads into us getting punished because Yoshi doesn't have as many good tools and options Ice Climbers may possess.

I truly do believe it's even. Someone even thought it was our advantage. =P

Gimping the ICs is not incredibly difficult. Even if they're together, it is easy for us to gimp their Up-B. To be honest, I find their Squall Hammer recovery to be much safer and harder to gimp, though I'd like to believe that an egg would beat that. I haven't played in a while recently, however, so that's just a theory.

 

[Bwett]

I believe the matchup to be near even. Yoshi has excellent means of not getting grabbed and excellent means to break apart the IC's. I'll explain some stuff later. I'm not positive if it is in our favor or theirs, but it is definitely near even.

 

[Sharky]

maybe a bit too late, but this sounds like something for the IC MU thread lol

 

[Delta-cod]

maybe a bit too late, but this sounds like something for the IC MU thread lol

We will not adhere to your restrictions!

We can always just use the discussion here to write up a summary and put that into the IC thread, lol.

 

[.Marik]

Brilliant Narrative, Comrade

It's what I do!

Actually, when using their up B, only one climber is thrown to the ledge and that climber pulls the other up. I believe the AI is thrown first. You could actually just Dair them and hit the vulnerable climber to screw up their recovery.

But the slim amount of frames we can attack them before Ice Climbers are invincible is incredibly slim.

So, desynched approaches? Most of which can be beaten by a well placed egg to hit the vulnerable climber as they're doing their move.

Desynched moves aren't always easy to approach. Eggs should be useful, it may not always work though.

Everything is situational, always. Some situations are just more present than others. /semantics

Hobbling isn't "situational", it's a large factor regularly implemented into this particular matchup, affecting the outcome 95% of the time. ChainGrabs or actual Hobbling, take your pick.

Again, we don't need to approach unless the chances of being punished are incredibly slim, and even lessened with careful play. If both players are defensive, the match is going to take a looooooooooong time. Long time. Like the Lucas and Kirby MU is careful play is being used. Just don't get anxious.

Blargh repeating myself 123,476,487 times. <3

I truly do believe it's even. Someone even thought it was our advantage. =P

Madness. You guys don't play competent Ice Climbers if you think it's Yoshi's Advantage. Of all characters.

Gimping the ICs is not incredibly difficult. Even if they're together, it is easy for us to gimp their Up-B.

But the particular manner you are talking about is way better on paper as a theorycrafted response than actually performing it in Tournament play.

Granted, it's somewhat easy, just not the ways you listed.

To be honest, I find their Squall Hammer recovery to be much safer and harder to gimp, though I'd like to believe that an egg would beat that. I haven't played in a while recently, however, so that's just a theory.

An Egg might, but are you suggesting this as an Edgeguarding technique?

Squall Hammer recovery lacks the versatile range that UpB allows.

 

[Bwett]

I haven't been reading yalls discussion in depth, but I believe IC vs Yoshi is close to even, if not that. I'm not sure if it's slightly in favor of one or the other, but this is how it goes.

Because of the nature of Yoshi's attacks and his extreme agility in the air, Yoshi has an easy time breaking up the IC's and not getting grabbed. Rising nairs, egglay, bair, and egg are amazing in this matchup. Also, because of the speed of your fthrow and bthrow, pivot grabs are effective as well. I believe bthrow and uthrow set up well into usmash, but I'm not sure.

Camping isn't too effective because iceblocks interrupt your throwing easily. You can try SH egg throwing, but I wouldn't suggest it. In general, poke at IC's shield with bair until Nana gets poked, rush in with utilt or ftilt and get them in the air. Once they are in the air, this is the worst position they can be in. Usmash and uair work very well at chaining. When they try to land, you have a good chance of getting a grab off. The second you get a grab and throw on one character, if the other is Nana, usmash her. If the other is Popo, either go for usmash or grab, depending on how they react. Odds are, Popo will try to grab you or fsmash so react accordingly.

IC's side-b isn't too difficult to punish with usmash or uair and is pretty predictable. If you ever get IC's off the stage, go for an egg toss, nair, or uair. You never want to approach IC's from above because their uair and upb have ridiculous priority and surprising knockback. Approach from the side or below. If you are trying to edgehog IC's, be careful of upb spiking you and try to punish Nana if she is at high percent or push Popo away and then punish Nana.

They have several combos they try to do like blizzard into grab. Typically they won't work on Yoshi so just DI away if you get hit and make a bair wall.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

I agree with the post above me

 

[Gindler]

Meta Knight - Disadvantage
Snake - Disadvantage
Wario - Even
Falco - Even
Diddy Kong - Even
King Dedede - Even
Marth - Disadvantage
Pikachu - Even
Olimar - Disadvantage
Ice Climbers - Even
R.O.B. - Disadvantage
Kirby - Even
Lucario - Disadvantage
Zero Suit Samus - Even
Toon Link - Even
Pit - Even
Donkey Kong - Even
Peach - Disadvantage
Mr. Game And Watch- Disadvantage
Luigi - Disadvantage
Fox - Even
Wolf - Disadvantage
Sonic - Even
Sheik - Disadvantage
Bowser - Advantage
Zelda - Advantage
Pokémon Trainer - Advantage
Ike - Even
Lucas - Even
Mario - Even
Ness - Disadvantage
Yoshi - Even
Samus - Even
Jigglypuff - Advantage
Captain Falcon - Advantage
Link - Even
Ganondorf - Advantage

Shiri, I'll gladly Fair you if I can make it to pound 4 considering you actually think yoshi beats peach. LOL play peaches who know how to play yoshi.

I've played the matchup oodles with probably the best peach in florida and I'd agree it's even, he knows the matchup but not as well as you obviously

 

[Airborne]

on top of what bwett said, although this is somewhat situational, if you knock nana far enough off stage, you can use ECE's to keep popo at bay from tp'ing nana back to him, while nana falls to her death. if he starts ps'ing to try and advance to you, jump up and show him what it's like inside that nice cozy egg; the desynch can keep nana from even getting near him, and it knocks popo upward when he gets out, separating him by an ever greater distance....

however, he might try to DI offstage with the egg to get closer to nana, so it's probably best to nair or fair nana while popo is in the egg.... y'all think that would help at all? =P

 

[Metatitan]

Hiroi probably doesn't Fair enough, or know how to **** yoshi's ledgegame, or get past yoshi camp ;x

 

[Poltergust]

^I don't know whether he was referring to Hiroi or Kyon, actually.

 

[Gindler]

^Yeah, I was referring to Kei. Out of the three peaches he gives me the most trouble (I haven't played Kyon in a while though, hmmm) All three try Dairing yoshi too much, not used to an Usmash that shreads it I guess. What peach doesn't fair enough?

 

[Deleted member]

I guarentee meta will rip your yoshis to shreds.
Not joking either hes mad good at the matchup and peach beats yoshi hardcore if both people know the matchup very well.

 

[Gindler]

^ I wouldn't doubt it, Peach is a beast...especially for yoshi's low defense (hehe). He knows yoshi's faults as well as a yoshi main too, too bad we'll probably never play since america is so big Did he rip your yoshi to shreds yet?

 

[Deleted member]

Yea id do better now i think after watching our vids i know stuff i did wrong.
we also have played so much on wifi we knew eachothers styles so he would know what id do in situations lol.

He JV 3 stocked hadesblades tho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJjUK7zyD-k
Me vs Meta, we played like 1000 matches at that tourny but that was the only uploaded one so far.

I played dumb a little cuz its friendlies

 

[hadesblade]

Yea id do better now i think after watching our vids i know stuff i did wrong.
we also have played so much on wifi we knew eachothers styles so he would know what id do in situations lol.

He JV 3 stocked hadesblades tho

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJjUK7zyD-k
Me vs Meta, we played like 1000 matches at that tourny but that was the only uploaded one so far.

I played dumb a little cuz its friendlies

lol he jv 3 stocked me the third game after I had basically givin up anyway. It was a 2/3 set and after he beat me the first two he asked to make it 3/5 and I said sure, and pretty much just went through the motions. First 2 games I got him to last stock though...

EDIT: lol can't spell XD

 

[Gindler]

Lol, wow I can see why meta switched to peach. So beast. Well burnt you convinced me and I changed my "experiment list"

 

[Bwett]

If I place a *, I'm not positive. If I place a ?, it's because I don't have much experience and just going off my intuition.

Meta Knight - Disadvantage
Snake - Disadvantage
Wario - Even
Falco - Disadvantage
Diddy Kong - Disadvantage
King Dedede - Even
Marth - Disadvantage
Pikachu - Even
Olimar - Even
Ice Climbers - Even
R.O.B. - Disadvantage
*Kirby - Even
Lucario - Disadvantage
*Zero Suit Samus - Even
Toon Link - Disadvantage
?Pit - Even
Donkey Kong - Even
Peach - Even
Mr. Game And Watch- Disadvantage
?Luigi - Even
?Fox - Disadvantage
Wolf - Disadvantage
*Sonic - Advantage
?Sheik - Even
*Bowser - Advantage
*Zelda - Disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer - Advantage
Ike - Even
Lucas - Advantage
Mario - Even
*Ness - Advantage
Yoshi - Even
Samus - Disadvantage
Jigglypuff - Even
*Captain Falcon - Advantage
*Link - Even
Ganondorf - Advantage

 

[Airborne]

i believe yoshi has the advantage against sonic, it's just that sonic has quite a few mindgames and he's so fast, it takes someone that knows the MU to be able to beat a top level sonic player.

 

[Deleted member]

lol he jv 3 stocked me the third game after I had basically givin up anyway. It was a 2/3 set and after he beat me the first two he asked to make it 3/5 and I said sure, and pretty much just went through the motions. First 2 games I got him to last stock though...

EDIT: lol can't spell XD

He told me he sandbagged you
lol :D
Bwetts list is pretty goood, except i think oli is disadvantage, falco is even, peach beats us and i think thats it.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Just saw that match between Socks and Meta

YOU GOT WRECKED STOCKY

 

[Deleted member]

Doesnt matter he won most but those were like the worst probably XD

 

[Bwett]

I chose Falco as disadvantage because if he camped us well, we can't do anything about it. If they don't hardcore camp, it's even. I don't think Peach beats us at all. We have alot of moves that outprioritize her, although her turnips beat our camp game. Lastly, Olimar has big problems against Yoshi. I've played alot of good olimars and it doesn't seem too bad at all. I will claim it is at the least, slightly in their favor.

 

[VSC.D-Torr]

Doesnt matter he won most but those were like the worst probably XD

Relax guy

I was only trolling you for a good laugh

or was I?

 

[Deleted member]

I chose Falco as disadvantage because if he camped us well, we can't do anything about it. If they don't hardcore camp, it's even. I don't think Peach beats us at all. We have alot of moves that outprioritize her, although her turnips beat our camp game. Lastly, Olimar has big problems against Yoshi. I've played alot of good olimars and it doesn't seem too bad at all. I will claim it is at the least, slightly in their favor.

Peach outzones us a ton with her double jump float spacing, thats the real thing that beats yoshi bad, but most peaches dont know that. When she floats at a certain spacing, we cant do anything really, usmash beats down air but if we run up she can float foward and down air before the usmash comes out, or just double jump foward air which will beat it.
Peach also punishes a lot harder, and generally kills easier, because yoshi cant really touch peach with any kill move but usmash and maybe down b if u read a jump (since shes almost never shielding right in front of you, jab down b is unlikely).

Falco hardcore camping is a pain, but yoshis air speed and SHAD make it not too bad to get past (i mean its really bad, but considering all the stuff yoshi does to falco, it evens out).

 

[Metatitan]

Stocky I ***** you even harder in matches that weren't saved.

Both of us were ridiculously tired; we weren't using our characters to their fullest. Peach's double jump spacing really does **** yoshi, a lot of us just forget to use it. You up smash, she just jumped out of your way and you ate a Fair. You egg toss, it misses or she can just drop down and powershield it.

I don't think she ***** yoshi, but I do think she beats him pretty solidly.

 

[Airborne]

guys, i honestly need help with the oli MU... there are more olis in this region than there are mk's.... and i haven't taken a game off of a single one.... what the hell am i supposed to do?!?!

 

[auroreon]

Meta Knight - Disadvantage
Snake - Disadvantage
Wario - Even
Falco - Disadvantage
Diddy Kong - Disadvantage
King Dedede - Even
Marth - Disadvantage
Pikachu - Even
Olimar - Disadvantage
Ice Climbers - Even
R.O.B. - Disadvantage
Lucario - Disadvantage
Toon Link - Disadvantage
Pit - Even
Donkey Kong - Advantage
Peach - Even
Mr. Game And Watch - Disadvantage
Luigi - Even
Fox - Even
Wolf - Even
Sheik - Advantage
Bowser - Even
Zelda - Disadvantage
Pokémon Trainer - Advantage
Ike - Advantage
Lucas - Advantage
Mario - Even
Ness - Advantage
Yoshi - MASSIVE Disadvantage
Jigglypuff - Even
Captain Falcon - Advantage
Link - Disadvantage
Ganondorf - Advantage

Left out the characters I don't have enough experience to comment on.

 

[Deleted member]

Stocky I ***** you even harder in matches that weren't saved.

Both of us were ridiculously tired; we weren't using our characters to their fullest. Peach's double jump spacing really does **** yoshi, a lot of us just forget to use it. You up smash, she just jumped out of your way and you ate a Fair. You egg toss, it misses or she can just drop down and powershield it.

I don't think she ***** yoshi, but I do think she beats him pretty solidly.

Naw i won like 25% first of all, secondly you never 3 stocked me and i 2 stokced you like twice


Btw that spike was siiiick im mad good loooooool

 

[Metatitan]

o.O? You never two stocked me, you did get a low% one stocks though.

 

[bigman40]

Leave that to the general boards. Also, I said that I was gonna post my MU list.......which was almost like a week ago......and I still don't feel like making out the list.

And for those who haven't played the MUs: Kirby, D3, ToonLink, Pit, Ness, Lucas, and Olimar are extremely boring matchups to play.

 

[Deleted member]

I like lucas and kirby (depends on the player and how campy they are).