MetaKnight Infinite Dimensional Cape - hope you enjoy

[Grunt]

and an insta-ban wouldn't let the potential of the technique see how tournament play is affected.

well, you've certainly learned.
I didn't expect that from you. o.0

 

[Quez256]

I kinda hate myself for missing this epic thread of utter fail.

It's funny how all the new guys to the forums are all saying we should keep it while barely giving any details as to how to go around enforcing whatsoever and then you have the backroom people and Yuna, trying to make sense of things, even pulling some stuff from competitive game writers such as Sirlin to help backup their arguments.

IMO, scrubs need to simmer down and realize that their not making sense and let the people with experience on the competitive scene make the decisions.

If you don't like it, you guys can always go back to the shadows and play your cousins, neighbors and their pet dogs and keep believing that your the best in your town.

Harsh? Yes. The truth? Yes.

Good point, but please try not to be so......"**** you" if you know what I mean.

 

[IrArby]

I vote for Ban.

Not that I wouldn't like to see M2K use it in Friendlies and I definetly will use it in Friendlies but it would ruin competitve Brawl.

Also, remember that infinite only means 7 mins in Brawl not really infinite just long enough for the match to end. This is concieveable especially since you'll spend some of that time getting your (however slight) advantage.

 

[shadowlink3]

man... this is getting so good as the day ends

 

[Mystic Viper]

Good point, but please try not to be so......"**** you" if you know what I mean.

Last sentence of my post explained in advance. I'm just tired of seeing all these random new faces clinging on to something like this, which has to possibility to be game breaking (if it already isn't) and not listening to the elders around here (read "the voice of reason").

Brawl is already a mess and that very same mess makes it less competitive then melee (lets not get into a brawl vs melee here, cause i love brawl as a game more then i ever did melee), but fact is that the so called techniques in this game aren't helping to achieve a better metagame, there doing the exact opposite and this here one isn't helping either.

 

[MisterMoo]

haha sean, I bet you're glad you posted this XD. This thread is epic...

 

[Korpocalypse]

I've said this already:
With ledgestalls, we do not regulate how long someone does it, we regulate how many times someone does a certain move that's banned for stalling purposes. We can easily monitor this. One, two, three, four, five, you're out!

Meta-Knights held-down B? What, we're supposed to use stopwatches now? What if someone decides to make it part of their style to continiously, whenever possible, use it to stall the game for short periods of time, pushing the limit every single time?

We'd have to have a TO with a stopwatch watch every single one of his matches and continously time his Down Bs to see to it that he doesn't go over the limit.

Also, why do people use "It looks cool!" as an example? Who cares?! If it can be used to stall and if monitoring it takes way too much time and effort, we don't care if it "looks cool". I'm, however, not going to push for it to be auto-banned altogether, of course. For stalling purposes, auto-banned.

At all? Debatable. I'm just putting forth the reasons for why I think it should be autobanned.

Well, regarding the people doing it repeatedly, I had already proposed afew posts above this one that suggests that it only be allowed to do once per game, and if it goes on for more than x seconds than the game be forfitted or some punishment. and I don't think an official at every MK game will be necessary, because nothing will change with the moniteration of matches in terms of watching for banned things; people watch and call over others when necessary.

 

[Admiral Pit]

Wow this place is very popular in just a few hours.
I really would enjoy this little ability to probably get behind a projectile spammer and punish them.
This can actually be used pretty well if you want to get behind someone, or for mindgames.
Perhaps to dogde a spammin falco, and get behind him.

 

[Rockin]

But you shouldn't ban a tech like this right away just because it's the easier thing to do as a tournament host. I'm not saying this move should be banned or not yet.

Of course, this move seems like it can be very easily abused for stalling purposes (keep in mind my Wii is still broken and I cant play Brawl right now) but I can see this argument going either way at this point. All I know is it seems like there are a lot of judgment calls coming from a tech like this. It'll be near impossible (that means impossible, it won't happen) to monitor every MK at a tournament and make sure they don't exceed any kind of allowed time limit for staying invincible, so if this tech is banned, then there is also the issue of 'Did he just use the dimensional cape tech?' (for a lack of official name) and if he did, who's to say it was for stalling or spacing or something else?

I just think they shouldn't ban it immediately before allowing it at some tournaments first. Let us experiment with it and let the results speak for themselves.

There's no need to experiment on something that could already be seen as a threat. Mookierah gave us a reason as well as a example from the SBR room. I think it's enough to say for to be banned.

If we let it go, chaos could be all around in tourys, not to mention it could be even easier for scrub players to win tourys (as said by many people, Meta Knight is one of the easiest learning curves). If we try to restrict it by time, it'll just be a useless technique that shouldn't be used in the first place. It'll go from barely use to none, as though it was banned. So yeah, no other way to say it. Let it be banned.

 

[FloridaMeister]

finally made it through all the posts and I'm surprised that nobody mentioned this:

if someone does this to you, just pause and unpause to mess up their timing. Now they can use it to get around or whatnot, but the opponent wouldn't allow a stall to happen.

Problem solved. (just don't have pause disabled)

*edit* this is Mankosuki btw

 

[shadowlink3]

haha sean, I bet you're glad you posted this XD. This thread is epic...

sorta, i liked it when only a few of my friends knew it, not every1. haha.

 

[Grunt]

the only problem with this, is you cant really enforce a way so you don't stall with it, but it's still legal.

too bad MK doesn't have fawkes lazorz MIRITE?

 

[shadowlink3]

the only problem with this, is you cant really enforce a way so you don't stall with it, but it's still legal.

too bad MK doesn't have fawkes lazorz MIRITE?

i dunno, phalcho has stunz

 

[Patsie]

I'm going to paraphrase a post in the SBR just for you Patsie:

Banning the use of the technique is really easy to enforce cause you don't "accidentally" do this technique.

If we allow players to do it in given situations then those situations are really subjective.

For example:
Say I wanted to use it to get away from my opponent who was pressuring me. I manage to cape out and I'm creating space. My opponent pursues me, as he has an estimate as to where I am due to the camera. My opponent knows that I will have lag upon reappearing no matter what I do, so if he is on top of me when I pop then it's likely that I could end up getting blasted while I'm DI'ing downwards (note, you have to hold down to do this so you will be DI'ing down). So what happens is a situation where it's unsafe for me to un-cape, so we end up running around. Is this stalling? I would un-cape if I was in a safe situation, but I'm not, so it's in my best interest to wait it out until I can un-cape. Putting a time limit on it would suck because then my opponent knows that if I go over I could potentially get DQed if a TO/Staffer is around, or I'm forced to un-cape and possibly lose a stock. I am going to say that that because of the fact that your position cannot be perfectly determined coupled with the fact that I don't believe the lag is very punishable that it would rarely cause one to lose a stock; however, it could be used as an excuse to actually stall, but at the same time it could also be a legitimate reason.

Ironic enough, putting a time limit on it could actually make the move not worth it in the first place, which means that banning it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

First, let me just state that in my opinion, this move is unbelievably broken and 'too good' for MK and should warrant an outright ban under my standards (apparently not the thousands of different conflicting standards I've been told before). I'm just arguing that saying it could lead to stalling is not a good reason to ban it.

Then, I think you really need to be more responsive to my actual points, but I'll still address what you said.

Next, we're not giving a set list of specific circumstances or situations for people, we're putting a cap on how long they can do it. We basically do the same exact thing for any other stall: it's completely based on how many seconds the move wastes, the ONLY difference is other stalling techniques (wall bombing, rising pound) can be categorized into easily-seen repetitions of moves whereas this one can't.

Remember that stalling is wasting time for an excessively large period. Stalling doesn't mean that you avoid 2 or 3 attacks by using the technique. It's very broken in that respect, but the overall goal wasn't to waste time, but to become invincible. That's NOT stalling. That's effectively using a broken move. Just wanted to clarify that because the definition of stalling has seemingly changed to mean something different for this move.

With that in mind: stalling isn't about the player's intention. It's about the time he wastes while performing a move, and, as it's always happened throughout every stalling dispute filed previously, a TO comes over and uses completely subjective reasoning to determine if the person is stalling. It doesn't matter if the person had 'good intentions' about using the move effectively. If he uses it for long enough, it's stalling. If he uses it briefly, it's not. The exact time (or in other cases, repetitions of moves), as has always happened for any stalling dispute, is subjectively handled by the TO of that specific tournament.

So no, I can't give you a brightline for when something is considered stalling. There is no way to find one objectively. However, people use all sorts of methods to determine when it's stalling, whether it be a set number of moves (again, I'm almost 100% positive no concise number of repetitions has been widely accepted or at least used) or just a 'I know stalling when I see it' mentality from the TO. The same EXACT thing can happen with this, either with the latter (which will probably be used more) or, like the former, a time limit.

But please answer the practical issue which you failed to mention: if a tournament bans stalling, this move will not be used, whether intentionally or not, to waste time. There's way too much risk.

--

With all that said, I fully support you and Yuna on trying to get this banned. I think it will significantly alter tournament gameplay and make MK nigh-unbeatable. However, the 'it can be used for stalling!' argument is silly, for the reasons I made in both these posts.

 

[MisterMoo]

Yeah I've been playing Brawl since before the US release, and I'm quite familiar with the Melee competitive scene "playing seriously for about a year and a half", and I think this will be banned....

MK can simply keep using this, and attacking out of it for cheap easy hits to rack up damage for a KO...

 

[Debonu]

lol i was just playing a computer and i did this against it and went into an edgehog and while it was following me it went off the stage and couldnt get back on LMFAO it was epic both 0% kill in first 10 seconds

 

[Patsie]

well, you've certainly learned.
I didn't expect that from you. o.0

The funny thing is, I was told by Yuna that you don't need to see whether they do. The thread was just a massive clusterf*ck from both sides, and I'll take full responsibility for mine.

I don't want people to judge me through that thread, even though I know some people will. If you look at some of my posts, I (sometimes) say smart things .

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I don't think its accurate enough to effectively use as an attack, now that everyone knows not to be on the lowest level of the stage during an MK infinity. Also, the camera zoom makes it pretty clear where MK is during his invisibility.

Personally, I don't like this true AT not because its a stall as much as the fact that it makes MK even more irritating to fight. Technically, its not all that great an infinity, as most people lack the arm-endurance to keep it up indefinately. I still would like to see it banned though, as I can tell it will be irritating to face.

 

[IrArby]

alright since time is not efficent enough we will count C-stick clicks.

It is the only way.

 

[EternalCrusade]

There's no need to experiment on something that could already be seen as a threat. Mookierah gave us a reason as well as a example from the SBR room. I think it's enough to say for to be banned.

Seeing this tech as a threat is the whole reason why we SHOULD experiment with it before automatically shutting it down.

If we let it go, chaos could be all around in tourys, not to mention it could be even easier for scrub players to win tourys (as said by many people, Meta Knight is one of the easiest learning curves). If we try to restrict it by time, it'll just be a useless technique that shouldn't be used in the first place. It'll go from barely use to none, as though it was banned. So yeah, no other way to say it.

Exactly! If this technique really DOES prove to be the beat-all, victory-grabbing tech that we can imagine it being, THEN we ban it. But we shouldn't ban it until it is truly proven to be worthy, and not through written examples, but through actual matches and tournaments, I think it's the only way. It shouldn't be guilty until proven innocent, with absolutely no chance of ever being proven innocent.

Let it be banned.

It's not my call and it's not your call. No offense to you or MookieRah or anyone, but until the tech actually does overrun competitive Brawl, it shouldn't be banned. I just hope that the SBroomers give it a chance, like everything else.

 

[Grunt]

wait, you can get hit out of the invisibility?

 

[shadowlink3]

i love my tech. =)

 

[shadowlink3]

wait, you can get hit out of the invisibility?

no, you cant be touched, i answered this like 6 times. =(

 

[Fatmanonice]

I'm suddenly reminded why I dropped Metaknight several months ago... I'd like to learn this just for the sake of learning it though.

 

[Quez256]

i love my tech. =)

Fun, isn't it? ^_^

 

[shadowlink3]

i started this at 1:30 today, and its 9 now, and already 15 going on 16 pages, going strong... and a god 95% of this is *****ing... makes me sad =(

 

[lordoftheasians]

Baha, that's a nice find. I'm going to use it tomorrow on my buddies. They're gonna freak out. :D

 

[Olimarman]

Rofl. Your still limited to the distance that the move can go normally correct? The only difference is how long you disappear for?

 

[Taso]

As a TO, I'm going to leave this be until someone can prove to me that it can be done for more than a minute without affecting your gameplay in horrid ways afterwards.

Sure, it'd be great to kill a minute off the clock. But first you have to get that lead. And you have to manage to live afterwards when your arm feels like it was just crushed by Rosie O' Donnel.

I don't envy the man in that position.

Luckily, I get to go to a smash fest before I host my tournament this week, so I'll have some kinda' idea how hard it is before the tourny.

As of yet, I cannot maintain this for more than a second, and even that's a bit of a trial on my arm. And I'm no pushover at this game. This is either unbelievably difficult, or there's a pattern I'm failing at catching. In time, it will be very clear to me whether or not this deserves to be banned at least for my tournaments.

I'm certainly not going to argue against this being banned in general, as there's very apparent and very good reason for it to be banned.

I, however, choose to learn lessons the hard way. It makes for more interesting stories.



This is one helluva tech, and it's probably a very good thing that it'll be banned.

 

[acv]

probably the tournament organizers will decide wether its banned or not in their own tournament.

 

[SlashTalon]

I dunno but to me prolonged forced invincibility seems outright broken...

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

I'm sure this'll end up being banned shortly.

 

[GodAtHand]

Wow what a freaking workout! If this isn't banned I have lost faith in humanity... (over reaction)

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

ROFL






what a lame character

 

[Quez256]

ROFL






what a lame character

Ahem, the first time it was stupid, now it's getting irritating.

 

[Brutos]

Wow good find. Now I'm gonna go and piss off my friends with this.

 

[Hype]

Wow thats amazing

 

[EternalCrusade]

finally made it through all the posts and I'm surprised that nobody mentioned this:

if someone does this to you, just pause and unpause to mess up their timing. Now they can use it to get around or whatnot, but the opponent wouldn't allow a stall to happen.

Problem solved. (just don't have pause disabled)

*edit* this is Mankosuki btw

You can pause and unpause to throw off the timing of your opponent anyway, without this technique, but we're talking about tournament play here, and that is clearly NOT allowed...

 

[Rawrness]

Wow this is really hard to do ><. I haven't even done it once yet. How the heck do you press up-cstick so fast? any pointers?

 

[shadowlink3]

really fast?